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Injection wrote:
I know the codex is around the corner and all...

But as of now- how crazy is it to run Orks without spamming basic Boyz?

I'm looking at building to around 1,500pts while trying to keep the model count relatively low as I can (without going all Killa Kanz etc.).

I'm a huge fan of Nob models but the thought of having to paint hundreds of troop Boyz just puts me off so bad.... (recently finished 2k points of Nids- it was not fun painting hordes :( )

Any ideas where I could possibly focus the army on?
Doesn't have to super competitive but would be nice if it could still hold its own in casuals etc.

Honestly, at the moment there is no way of being "competitive" without taking a HUGE number of boyz. As an example I intend to play a fluffy for fun game today, I am bringing only 90 boyz. If I wanted to play competitively I would easily double that. The only good units at the moment are boyz, stormboyz (kommandos...kinda of) and KMK mek Gunz as well as a couple other fringe units.

Injection wrote:
I know the codex is around the corner and all...

But as of now- how crazy is it to run Orks without spamming basic Boyz?

I'm looking at building to around 1,500pts while trying to keep the model count relatively low as I can (without going all Killa Kanz etc.).

I'm a huge fan of Nob models but the thought of having to paint hundreds of troop Boyz just puts me off so bad.... (recently finished 2k points of Nids- it was not fun painting hordes :( )

Any ideas where I could possibly focus the army on?
Doesn't have to super competitive but would be nice if it could still hold its own in casuals etc.

Alas term "suicidally bad" is pretty much spot on. Pretty much only build that has been shown to work beyond spamming boyz is spamming stormboyz(basically same thing) or spamming KMK's(goodbye wallet).

@injection: I tried a list with 2 maxed out squads of nobz mobbed up together. I da jumped them into my enemy’s lines but they failed the charge after a re-roll. The nobz took 50% casualties in my opponents shooting phase. They were still fighting, but my opponent was able to kill 300 points with bbolter and artillery fire.
Ork Boyz are just so much more efficient and effective. 180 points of boys is more deadly and durable than 450 points of nobz with the flashiest of war gear. I only know because I’ve tried it a few times.
I don’t think it is a bad idea in a vacuum, it’s just that so many other armies have all the tools they need to counter Orks without really having to try real hard.
I bring 90 boys as a starting point now. Basically everything else is a distraction.

And the sad thing is even boyz are basically distraction...Boyz don't actually KILL all that much if anything(only boyz I have that consistently kill anything is shoota boyz). What boyz do is they have THREAT of killing forcing enemy to lock up in their DZ blowing your boyz apart left, center and right but hopefully enough survive long enough to win.

I have won games literally by killing only ONE enemy model. Not much orks left in the end but victory was mine.

(btw this is why grots are also useful. They don't kill much either but against S4+ they are actually tougher than boyz so does some of those jobs better. Not good enough to have only those as you need sufficient threat to keep enemy on their DZ. If you flood with grots even IG infantry or tacticals could decide to surge forward which is not what you want!)

Injection wrote:
I know the codex is around the corner and all...

But as of now- how crazy is it to run Orks without spamming basic Boyz?

I'm looking at building to around 1,500pts while trying to keep the model count relatively low as I can (without going all Killa Kanz etc.).

I'm a huge fan of Nob models but the thought of having to paint hundreds of troop Boyz just puts me off so bad.... (recently finished 2k points of Nids- it was not fun painting hordes :( )

Any ideas where I could possibly focus the army on?
Doesn't have to super competitive but would be nice if it could still hold its own in casuals etc.

Using units of 10 nobz with 10 ammo runts is not a lot less efficient than just running boyz. Put all shots with 1 damage or AP-1 or 0 on nobz and everything better on gretchin. You are not saving tons of models though, since you trade 30 boyz for 10 nobz and 10 gretchin.
Just make sure to not load them with too much gear, as they will die at some point during the game, usually before they reach combat.

Besides that, I can't think of a way to play less models that won't get you shot off the board turn 2. Warbiker armies simply die like flies, Deff Wing (MANz-focused armies) suffer from MANz not dealing enough damage and transports being bad, lists focusing on trukks or battlewagons don't work for the same reason and dread mob suffers from every single walker being overpriced by at least 25%.

I'd just wait for the codex. Build and paint some nobz until orktober is over, and then you will hopefully have more options.

Injection wrote:
I know the codex is around the corner and all...

But as of now- how crazy is it to run Orks without spamming basic Boyz?

I'm looking at building to around 1,500pts while trying to keep the model count relatively low as I can (without going all Killa Kanz etc.).

I'm a huge fan of Nob models but the thought of having to paint hundreds of troop Boyz just puts me off so bad.... (recently finished 2k points of Nids- it was not fun painting hordes :( )

Any ideas where I could possibly focus the army on?
Doesn't have to super competitive but would be nice if it could still hold its own in casuals etc.

I’ve been the same. Painted lots of Boyz but don’t want to move hundreds around each game. Have been playing 1250-1500 and I’m enjoying Tankbustas in trukks, Nauts, and Dakkajets supplemented by 60-90 Boyz. Won some, lost some, had good games except against Tau lol. Had a 2000 game and surprised someone with Deffkoptas the other day! They deepstruck, weren’t targeted as they are considered useless, then flew over some Havocs and landed 4 mortal wounds. Deffo not point efficient but had a purpose and were fun.

Injection wrote:
I know the codex is around the corner and all...

But as of now- how crazy is it to run Orks without spamming basic Boyz?

I'm looking at building to around 1,500pts while trying to keep the model count relatively low as I can (without going all Killa Kanz etc.).

How competitive do you want to be? You're not going to win any tournaments with nobz in trukks, but in casual games you probably won't be getting tabled by turn 3 every time.

Edit: somehow I lost track of what page I was on and didn't realize this question had already been answered.

padda_the_hutt wrote:

I’ve been the same. Painted lots of Boyz but don’t want to move hundreds around each game. Have been playing 1250-1500 and I’m enjoying Tankbustas in trukks, Nauts, and Dakkajets supplemented by 60-90 Boyz. Won some, lost some, had good games except against Tau lol. Had a 2000 game and surprised someone with Deffkoptas the other day! They deepstruck, weren’t targeted as they are considered useless, then flew over some Havocs and landed 4 mortal wounds. Deffo not point efficient but had a purpose and were fun.

Movement trays are your friend. After getting those moving is fastest thing I have in my games. What eats time is rolling 50-60+ dice with negligble effect in the end.

tneva82 wrote:

padda_the_hutt wrote:

I’ve been the same. Painted lots of Boyz but don’t want to move hundreds around each game. Have been playing 1250-1500 and I’m enjoying Tankbustas in trukks, Nauts, and Dakkajets supplemented by 60-90 Boyz. Won some, lost some, had good games except against Tau lol. Had a 2000 game and surprised someone with Deffkoptas the other day! They deepstruck, weren’t targeted as they are considered useless, then flew over some Havocs and landed 4 mortal wounds. Deffo not point efficient but had a purpose and were fun.

Movement trays are your friend. After getting those moving is fastest thing I have in my games. What eats time is rolling 50-60+ dice with negligble effect in the end.

Use a dice app!! Better than any movement trays and truly speeds up games.

Played in a local tourney. Used new traits and strategems.
2000 pt list included:
Deathskullz: 2 bosses, 1 wierdboy, 1 painboy, 120 boyz, 2*5 tankbustas with squigs in a trukk, 3 kmk
Speedfreaks: 2*5 meganobz, little mek, wierdboy

Dakkadakka is ok. Doesn't make much difference outside of tabkbustas that are allready good. Well, maybe kmk too but especially tankbustas. Dead killy.
Deathskullz are great. 6++ made my games. Salamander-style rerolls were also great for klaws, kmk and tankbustas.
Speedfreaks are good for deepstrikers (2*5 meganobz thanjs to strategem - we decided to play it the way like all other armies have it but with a 20 pl limitation per deepstrike). Ups your chances to 66%.
Meganobz with deepstrike were decent. Waaaay better than any other option avaliable.
Fight twice strategem is great.
Res a squad and outflank it is trolltastic. We played it like a tide of traitors, so 3 cp and once per game only. Also ruled it out that it can't bring back more than the initial number of one squad. As it's not clear weather it works with mob up or not. Still it's amazing. Especially with 6++ and 6+++. This squads are very annoying to deal with.

All in all. That's a huge buff we're gona get. Start thinking about getting more cp. Double batallion or even brigade. Cause you will want to res boyz and to fight twice. And to get extra deepstrikes and maybe more. It's good.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

padda_the_hutt wrote:

I’ve been the same. Painted lots of Boyz but don’t want to move hundreds around each game. Have been playing 1250-1500 and I’m enjoying Tankbustas in trukks, Nauts, and Dakkajets supplemented by 60-90 Boyz. Won some, lost some, had good games except against Tau lol. Had a 2000 game and surprised someone with Deffkoptas the other day! They deepstruck, weren’t targeted as they are considered useless, then flew over some Havocs and landed 4 mortal wounds. Deffo not point efficient but had a purpose and were fun.

Movement trays are your friend. After getting those moving is fastest thing I have in my games. What eats time is rolling 50-60+ dice with negligble effect in the end.

Use a dice app!! Better than any movement trays and truly speeds up games.

I use when opponent is OK but since those are fakeable(I could make one that would look like the dice apps on the market myself that would give me slight edge as it is...In course of single game that would not be detectable as loaded but it would give me slight edge in odds...Bit less 1's, bit more 5's...) not everybody is OK with that.

 koooaei wrote:
Played in a local tourney. Used new traits and strategems.
2000 pt list included:
Deathskullz: 2 bosses, 1 wierdboy, 1 painboy, 120 boyz, 2*5 tankbustas with squigs in a trukk, 3 kmk
Speedfreaks: 2*5 meganobz, little mek, wierdboy

Dakkadakka is ok. Doesn't make much difference outside of tabkbustas that are allready good. Well, maybe kmk too but especially tankbustas. Dead killy.
Deathskullz are great. 6++ made my games. Salamander-style rerolls were also great for klaws, kmk and tankbustas.
Speedfreaks are good for deepstrikers (2*5 meganobz thanjs to strategem - we decided to play it the way like all other armies have it but with a 20 pl limitation per deepstrike). Ups your chances to 66%.
Meganobz with deepstrike were decent. Waaaay better than any other option avaliable.
Fight twice strategem is great.
Res a squad and outflank it is trolltastic. We played it like a tide of traitors, so 3 cp and once per game only. Also ruled it out that it can't bring back more than the initial number of one squad. As it's not clear weather it works with mob up or not. Still it's amazing. Especially with 6++ and 6+++. This squads are very annoying to deal with.

All in all. That's a huge buff we're gona get. Start thinking about getting more cp. Double batallion or even brigade. Cause you will want to res boyz and to fight twice. And to get extra deepstrikes and maybe more. It's good.

Good to hear MANZ actually work out if they can deep strike and we can avoid having to take pricey vehicles. I presume it was the typical double killsaw squad? Would you say taking grotz to fulfill troop requirements to get more detachments/CP's is worth it? Or is just taking more boyz still a better option?

Seeing how good grots are already worth having some anyway.

And seeing how orks eat cp i have been running 2 bat's anyway. Might run 3 in future

 Grimskul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Played in a local tourney. Used new traits and strategems.
2000 pt list included:
Deathskullz: 2 bosses, 1 wierdboy, 1 painboy, 120 boyz, 2*5 tankbustas with squigs in a trukk, 3 kmk
Speedfreaks: 2*5 meganobz, little mek, wierdboy

Dakkadakka is ok. Doesn't make much difference outside of tabkbustas that are allready good. Well, maybe kmk too but especially tankbustas. Dead killy.
Deathskullz are great. 6++ made my games. Salamander-style rerolls were also great for klaws, kmk and tankbustas.
Speedfreaks are good for deepstrikers (2*5 meganobz thanjs to strategem - we decided to play it the way like all other armies have it but with a 20 pl limitation per deepstrike). Ups your chances to 66%.
Meganobz with deepstrike were decent. Waaaay better than any other option avaliable.
Fight twice strategem is great.
Res a squad and outflank it is trolltastic. We played it like a tide of traitors, so 3 cp and once per game only. Also ruled it out that it can't bring back more than the initial number of one squad. As it's not clear weather it works with mob up or not. Still it's amazing. Especially with 6++ and 6+++. This squads are very annoying to deal with.

All in all. That's a huge buff we're gona get. Start thinking about getting more cp. Double batallion or even brigade. Cause you will want to res boyz and to fight twice. And to get extra deepstrikes and maybe more. It's good.

Good to hear MANZ actually work out if they can deep strike and we can avoid having to take pricey vehicles. I presume it was the typical double killsaw squad? Would you say taking grotz to fulfill troop requirements to get more detachments/CP's is worth it? Or is just taking more boyz still a better option?

I used tripple saws. Would have used all saws if i had the models. They do lack attacks still.
As for grots, why not. Especially for the opportunity cost of having them save a squad of boyz to get it outflanked at full str. It might be worth running a full grot squad just for that. Don't know yet.

 Jidmah wrote:
In the how to fix orks thread I suggested upping all rokkits-style weapons' shots to mirror the number of rokkits actually shown on the model: Kopta Rokkits get Assault 4, Kanz and deff dreads get a new "Rokkit Launcha Arm" with Assault 3.

You still would have to pay for 3 rokkits, but the price per rokkit in your army would go down since you only need one kan per three rokkits.

I have the feeling that they're meant to be 'not-reloady' rockets- like, it's one Rokkit per shooting phase, and only up to 5 or 6 shooting phases per game- thus only a couple Rokkits per model, to represent a shot per turn more than anything else.

Hearing MANZ doing good has me excited, them along with ork walkers are my favorite units so ill be really happy if the codes gives me a reason to buy more.

Anvildude wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
In the how to fix orks thread I suggested upping all rokkits-style weapons' shots to mirror the number of rokkits actually shown on the model: Kopta Rokkits get Assault 4, Kanz and deff dreads get a new "Rokkit Launcha Arm" with Assault 3.

You still would have to pay for 3 rokkits, but the price per rokkit in your army would go down since you only need one kan per three rokkits.

I have the feeling that they're meant to be 'not-reloady' rockets- like, it's one Rokkit per shooting phase, and only up to 5 or 6 shooting phases per game- thus only a couple Rokkits per model, to represent a shot per turn more than anything else.

I know, but most other rokkit models don't carry around a lot of extra rokkits either (except the one rokkit-backpack for boyz).

It was more like an idea to improve the rules without giving the weapon stats that don't match the models.

For example, a deff dread with six rokkits is something I would consider fielding, a deff dread with two rokkits? Not so much, I'd rather go with skorchas or more klaws.

Most ork vehicles currently suffer from a mismatch between their firepower and their durability - where koptas and kanz used to be throw-away models that had one shot, you now have roughly three times the durability for three times the points - but the same damage as before.

Hopefully codex gives something else than just stratetems to boost them. Especially if you want to buy more as if only reason to use unit is strategem all you need is 1 unit

We don't know yet how deepstrike works exactly.
If it has no limitation on the amount of squads you can deepstrike or it's at least 2-3 squadsz we're effectively becoming a devastating betta strike army. Don't want to waste pts on kommandoes? No big deal, spend a cp and ds a freaking 30-strong speedfreak mob of boyz.
Have problems dealing with those 3++ knights? Ds a bunch of killsaw nobz.

And yep, i think that so far (as long as there are no other known rules yet) speed freaks are great deepstrikers.

tneva82 wrote:
Hopefully codex gives something else than just stratetems to boost them. Especially if you want to buy more as if only reason to use unit is strategem all you need is 1 unit

I'm sure the bloodletter bomb doesn't mind needing two stratagems to work - neither does the TH Jump Captain nor the Knight Castellan.

 koooaei wrote:
And yep, i think that so far (as long as there are no other known rules yet) speed freaks are great deepstrikers.

Yeah. Evil sunz are master of ambush, blood axes are masters of mad rush across plain field, snakebites are master of walker builders...Game effect wise clan traits aren't bad but they encourage odd playing style. Evil sunz encourage using lots of SLOW stuff for some bizarre reason.

Anyway for lol's here's 6k list I'm planning to take to apoc game next month. Dunno if codex comes in time and if yes what changes it causes to my list. Obviously not supposed to be min-maxed to death and painted requirement throws in spanner to some ideas(I just can't paint another 100+ boyz in time! I'm finishing up 60 boyz as it is and still have lots to paint...). But it was fun thinking what to take and I STILL had to trim down a lot as I have basically double this in points

Takes up 3 battallions and 2 super heavy aux's but CP wise irrelevant as we get 20 CP each which can't be refuned in any way whatsoever(sensible rule btw. You dont' want 6 vs 6 game 6 players rolling for CP's every time strategem is used by opponent style etc...).

Bat 1:(goff)

Ghazkhull
weirdboy(warpath)
big mek w/kff
1x30 boyz(all slugga&choppa, nob w/power klaw)
2x30 grots
runtherd of morale boost
gorkanaut
dreadnought(4xdread klaw)

Bat 2:(deth skulls)

warboss
weirdboy w/da jump
big mek w/kff
30xboyz(19xshoota, 10xchoppa, nob w/big choppa)
30xboyz(19xchoppa, 10xshoota, nob w/power klaw)
30xgrots
3xkilla kan(rokkits)
deff dread(2xskorcha)
burna jet w/skorcha missiles
4xkustom mega kannon

Bat 3:(evil sunz+bad moons)

warboss w/headwoppa's kill choppa, tenacious survivor
weirdboy w/da jump
30xboyz(29xshoota, nob w/power klaw)
30xboyz(19xchoppa, 10xshoota, nob w/power klaw)
30xboyz(29xchoppa, nob w/big choppa)
30xgrot
runtherd
gorkanaut
deff dread(2xbig shoota)
dakka jet w/6xsupa shoota

super heavies:

2xstompa

Phew. That's a lot of models(though ironically 103 models bigger than the 1500 pts tournament list I had recently 4 times the points, only 50% up in model count!). Klan rules I can't follow 100%. Issue is battallion 3 where there is the full shoota mob(bad moons) while other 2 are evil sunz. Also deff dread there is big shoota. Aaaand both planes are bit off. One is more of blood axe and one evil sunz(which sucks for planes) and I can only field 1 plane per battallion...Ah well. If worst comes those units play without clan rules.

What I still need to paint:

stompa(other one I will later repaint for my own colours as it's too clearly painted by different person but for this has to be) that is started, finish up 2 mobs of boyz, both gorkanauts(started), one KMK, 2 dreadnoughts, one weirdboy, one warboss(issue being clan colours) and 21 grots.

Plenty to paint in bit over a month...I do have painted alternatives if I can't get something like 5 mega nobs, 15 lootas, battlewagon, 6 more killa kans etc.

But clan rules giving me def headache. That's what you get when you build up fluffy mix of clans!

Though split one grot mob into two and big mek's to own and with 4 det's + super heavy auxiliaries that actually works leaving just weird plane colour schemes)

One scary prospect is I know for sure there's warlord titan coming to the game. Not sure how teams will be organized(so that both sides are equal. Current count btw is 38000 pts worth of models coming...) so maybe it's on my side but likely not and if that has the volcano cannon and super plasma then even with 5++ that thing will basically take out both stompas in one turn on average dice roll...And I need 7 stompas charging in to kill it! Needless to say if that happens to be on field stompa's are target practice. Well they are basically ork's knight equilavent so can't expect to put a fight against warlord titan!

For apoc games, use PL. It makes building armies much faster since you can just toss any 10 nobz on the table and call them a unit without checking the gear of every model fist. And no matter how many PKs you jam in there, it won't matter in a game of that scale.

Well I ain't the one who invented up the rules. I just build the army according to the rules which was up to 6000 pts in 500 pts chunks(so no 4790 pts) to ease up task of assigning teams to each size.

And orks benefit a lot from having points so suits me. We are already weak enough.

How do we benefit from points over PL?

Not being snarky, honest question.

Simple. Orks tends to end up stuff like 2000 pts/70 PL(at least I do generally and since I follow WYSIWYG I can't even beef up things with extra upgrade. Sure I could add nob squad with combi flamers and power klaws. Then I would need to convert(and combining skorcha and h2h weapon is tricky...) and paint them...And then have fun with them outside PL games). So basically if I were asked to bring up like 300 PL I would likely end up smaller army than I would(in fact above is 329 PL).

Meanwhile with my imperium 300 PL would easily end up more than 6k for the 300PL.

Basically orks don't have much upgrades and even less that are worth taking and if you follow WYSIWYG(which is btw pretty much mandatory least you end up with 10 death company all with power fist stormshield etc things) you end up with points that are way off.

And since I don't fuss too much about optimizing things and follow WYSIWYG that 6k list was fairly easy to build. Boyz+grots+gorkanauts+stompas and then start looking what fits. Remaining points were fiddled around with killa kans and dreadnoughts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW actual tactic question regarding above list. Each player is asked to write down in secret relic squad. That unit surviving +3 VP, death -5VP. Ergo something that survives. Suggestions? All walkers and fliers are obvious "out". Ditto for KMK's. Weirdboys also bad due to habit of self destruction so I'm thinking of one big mek(incidentally last apoc game I got personal goal archieved with lone big mek surviving in our DZ ) on the principle such a tiny model not likely being high on opponents kill priorities. Alternatively runtherd for much the same reasons.

Grot gunners.

Heh, I have accumulated lots of additional nobz and boyz over the years, so I can actually WYSIWYG almost all unit upgrades. Of course, I don't have 10 nobz with skorcha/Killsaw or smiliar, but I can get at least two units with 10 PKs each.
Fielding fully decked out battlewagons is also nice for a change.

But outside of that? Yeah, you're probably right, little to gain from PL.

But in general, Apoc games are beyond any balance anyways, so a few hundred points give or take don't make a difference in my experience. Even at 6000 pts/300 PL the imperium army will only get more guns for their points, not more bodies. Even the most ridiculously equipped unit of MEQ or TEQ will die to a titan looking funny at them.

Grot gunner is actually pretty good idea Those things are pretty hard to take out. (though keeping in mind which units is the relic would be bit of a bugger...)

Interesting what the team mix is going to be. Imperium vs rest would be 22.5k vs 15.5k so obviously some imperials are going to be traitors. On non-imperium side there's necrons, my orks and chaos marines and traitor knights. However smallest imperium list to our side leads to 20k vs 18k. Well player count could go up still.

tneva82 wrote:
Simple. Orks tends to end up stuff like 2000 pts/70 PL(at least I do generally and since I follow WYSIWYG I can't even beef up things with extra upgrade. Sure I could add nob squad with combi flamers and power klaws. Then I would need to convert(and combining skorcha and h2h weapon is tricky...) and paint them...And then have fun with them outside PL games). So basically if I were asked to bring up like 300 PL I would likely end up smaller army than I would(in fact above is 329 PL).

Meanwhile with my imperium 300 PL would easily end up more than 6k for the 300PL.

Basically orks don't have much upgrades and even less that are worth taking and if you follow WYSIWYG(which is btw pretty much mandatory least you end up with 10 death company all with power fist stormshield etc things) you end up with points that are way off.

And since I don't fuss too much about optimizing things and follow WYSIWYG that 6k list was fairly easy to build. Boyz+grots+gorkanauts+stompas and then start looking what fits. Remaining points were fiddled around with killa kans and dreadnoughts.

I agree with you about PL, kinda. However, it's strange to me that my own PL lists (100 PL.) have come out well over the 2000 point equivalent lists. Do you think that just comes down to army construction? I was farming hard to max my usage of PL for sure. Granted I only put 3 or 4 such lists to paper a year ago.

 warhead01 wrote:


I agree with you about PL, kinda. However, it's strange to me that my own PL lists (100 PL.) have come out well over the 2000 point equivalent lists. Do you think that just comes down to army construction? I was farming hard to max my usage of PL for sure. Granted I only put 3 or 4 such lists to paper a year ago.

PL isn't meant to be balanced in any real sense, just give you a "general" idea of how much a unit is worth. For a game such as apoc, where balance is probably out the window anyway, I can't imagine it matters much.