Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)

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**Weazel**

So.. is there any point in running anything else than Evil Sunz? Maybe Bad Moons for your KMK battery, but other than that I think I'm never going to bother with anything else than Evil Sunz. A pity all of my models are painted Goff...

**Tibs Ironblood**

Weazel wrote:
So.. is there any point in running anything else than Evil Sunz? Maybe Bad Moons for your KMK battery, but other than that I think I'm never going to bother with anything else than Evil Sunz. A pity all of my models are painted Goff...

Goffs will shine against other melee forces due to Skarboyz and exploding 6s. They have their niche, but typically the fight is against shooty armies so their niche is not meta. Bad Moons have a strong niche and I predict we will see a shooting contingent of them in every competitive list. Evil sunz and blood axes I think will be the two meta picks for the core of the army for different reasons. Blood Axes will bring more durability and the evil sunz will bring more speed. On the fast units I think blood axes will be the pick because they are already pretty fast where as the evil sunz bring more to the slow boyz.

**gungo**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Weazel wrote:
So.. is there any point in running anything else than Evil Sunz? Maybe Bad Moons for your KMK battery, but other than that I think I'm never going to bother with anything else than Evil Sunz. A pity all of my models are painted Goff...

Goffs will shine against other melee forces due to Skarboyz and exploding 6s. They have their niche, but typically the fight is against shooty armies so their niche is not meta. Bad Moons have a strong niche and I predict we will see a shooting contingent of them in every competitive list. Evil sunz and blood axes I think will be the two meta picks for the core of the army for different reasons. Blood Axes will bring more durability and the evil sunz will bring more speed. On the fast units I think blood axes will be the pick because they are already pretty fast where as the evil sunz bring more to the slow boyz.

I agree with this completely except zhardsnark has to be evil suns...
but ya so far skarboys are just stronger boy swarms
Badmoons takes one of our best wpn profiles and makes it better
Then your main detachment is either evil sun/bloodaxe but your Boyz can’t be skarboyz and bloodaxe so it depends what the rest of your list contains and the strategems available.

I think painboy on bike w lukky stikk is a winner. It made a horribly unaccurate weapon actually good.
Warboss on bike w relic klaw is just as good as before.
My only issue is now I likely need a lot more grots for that bullet screen ability that was leaked early on.

The exact wording in that ability could save a lot of units such as kans/dreads etc depending on points.
I’m also interested in points of bikers/nob bikers who can also be brutal again like they use too.

**JimOnMars**

Skarboyz in cheap battlewagons will be have a strong turn 2 charge, and are counter meta twice, in different ways.

On turn 1 they will have a lot of T8 wounds to get through, which won't be too hard for a competitive list, but then the boyz spill and turn into a horde. If someone has both anti-tank and anti-horde, and don't get unlucky on the BWs, they could eat your lunch, but skew lists will have trouble with one phase or the other.

**gungo**

I don’t know if people forgot but warbikers are 4+ save units... make them bloodaxe bikers (if allowed and they are 3+ save units) and/or use billowing cloud stratagem for -1 to hit...

Bikers potentially can be decent again depending on points...

**TheunlikelyGamer**

So my evil sunz bikers now have a threat range of 19-36 inches! It's worth mentioning that Zhadsnark has the evil sunz keyword already. Between moving advancing and charging evil sunz get 4" extra between all 3 phases. Pair ten and Zhadsnark with the deffkopta trike and they still charge after advancing. And they can still shoot their dakka guns with no penalty and generate additional hits on 6s. Also I thought I read on the warhammer community page that they got a pts drop but that might have just been the mega nobz.

**PiñaColada**

gungo wrote:
I don’t know if people forgot but warbikers are 4+ save units... make them bloodaxe bikers (if allowed and they are 3+ save units) and/or use billowing cloud stratagem for -1 to hit...

Bikers potentially can be decent again depending on points...

Yeah, they can be (really) fast and somewhat durable. It's the damage output that I often find lacking. I just wish they did more in CC

**Tibs Ironblood**

PiñaColada wrote:
gungo wrote:
I don’t know if people forgot but warbikers are 4+ save units... make them bloodaxe bikers (if allowed and they are 3+ save units) and/or use billowing cloud stratagem for -1 to hit...

Bikers potentially can be decent again depending on points...

Yeah, they can be (really) fast and somewhat durable. It's the damage output that I often find lacking. I just wish they did more in CC

I 100% agree. The bikers are fast and somewhat durable, but in combat they are still just boyz and shooting they are still only shooting 6 s5 ap- d1 shots that hit on 5s. They really need a big point drop to be worth bringing.

**JimOnMars**

Does overwatch always hit on a natural 6? If not, exhaust fumes would prevent overwatch from hitting on charges, right?

**Tibs Ironblood**

JimOnMars wrote:
Does overwatch always hit on a natural 6? If not, exhaust fumes would prevent overwatch from hitting on charges, right?

Yup it always hits on a six regardless of modifiers.

**deffrekka**

JimOnMars wrote:
Skarboyz in cheap battlewagons will be have a strong turn 2 charge, and are counter meta twice, in different ways.

On turn 1 they will have a lot of T8 wounds to get through, which won't be too hard for a competitive list, but then the boyz spill and turn into a horde. If someone has both anti-tank and anti-horde, and don't get unlucky on the BWs, they could eat your lunch, but skew lists will have trouble with one phase or the other.

You could also use the trikeboss to allow the battlewagons to zoom up the board. Tokyo Drift (use the long edge of the battlewagon to contact more enemy units and block more space and line of sight) it with a Move 12" + advance with maybe a cheeky CP reroll and then use ramming speed (if it turns out to be a real strat) to tag units and lock them up.

This could then buy time for the other BWs with Skarboyz. Or have allied Evil Suns Deffkoptas to fly 16" + 7" advance (i dont think it actually applies to its advance as it doesnt roll it just moves straight 6") to fly over an enemy unit (drop a cheeky bomb as it does so) and charge into the big guns. If you cant fly over the chaff line in the movement phase you will have to charge the koptas into the infantry as you cant assault over units now with fly.

**hollow one**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Weazel wrote:
So.. is there any point in running anything else than Evil Sunz? Maybe Bad Moons for your KMK battery, but other than that I think I'm never going to bother with anything else than Evil Sunz. A pity all of my models are painted Goff...

Goffs will shine against other melee forces due to Skarboyz and exploding 6s. They have their niche, but typically the fight is against shooty armies so their niche is not meta. Bad Moons have a strong niche and I predict we will see a shooting contingent of them in every competitive list. Evil sunz and blood axes I think will be the two meta picks for the core of the army for different reasons. Blood Axes will bring more durability and the evil sunz will bring more speed. On the fast units I think blood axes will be the pick because they are already pretty fast where as the evil sunz bring more to the slow boyz.

I agree with this assessment. Boys gain the most from evil sunz, you're getting 2" extra a turn guaranteed, from the original 5"+D6 that is a massive upgrade. On vehicles it's a nice addition but relatively purposeless. Shoring up unit weaknesses is a good way to look at these kultures, IMO.

**Castozor**

deffrekka wrote:

You could also use the trikeboss to allow the battlewagons to zoom up the board. Tokyo Drift (use the long edge of the battlewagon to contact more enemy units and block more space and line of sight) it with a Move 12" + advance with maybe a cheeky CP reroll and then use ramming speed (if it turns out to be a real strat) to tag units and lock them up.

This could then buy time for the other BWs with Skarboyz. Or have allied Evil Suns Deffkoptas to fly 16" + 7" advance (i dont think it actually applies to its advance as it doesnt roll it just moves straight 6") to fly over an enemy unit (drop a cheeky bomb as it does so) and charge into the big guns. If you cant fly over the chaff line in the movement phase you will have to charge the koptas into the infantry as you cant assault over units now with fly.

I never thought of doing that, but now that you mention it there is no rule stating a vehicle has to charge front first is there? I don't think my mates will like it tho

.

**deffrekka**

Castozor wrote:
deffrekka wrote:

You could also use the trikeboss to allow the battlewagons to zoom up the board. Tokyo Drift (use the long edge of the battlewagon to contact more enemy units and block more space and line of sight) it with a Move 12" + advance with maybe a cheeky CP reroll and then use ramming speed (if it turns out to be a real strat) to tag units and lock them up.

This could then buy time for the other BWs with Skarboyz. Or have allied Evil Suns Deffkoptas to fly 16" + 7" advance (i dont think it actually applies to its advance as it doesnt roll it just moves straight 6") to fly over an enemy unit (drop a cheeky bomb as it does so) and charge into the big guns. If you cant fly over the chaff line in the movement phase you will have to charge the koptas into the infantry as you cant assault over units now with fly.

I never thought of doing that, but now that you mention it there is no rule stating a vehicle has to charge front first is there? I don't think my mates will like it tho .

Vehicles no longer have arcs of fire or front facing. Previously you would want your best armour value facing forward, well those days are gone! Loads of people do it. Rhinos, Trukks, Wave Serpents, Ghost Arks. All vehicle drivers in 40k know how to Tokyo drift!!

Its mainly done in the tournament scene as its "gamey" but there are loads of loopholes in 8th.

People do it to me and i do it to people

its good with battlewagons as they are so god damn long haha!

**Anvildude**

Someone needs to model a Battlewagon that's wider than it is long. It'd be so ORKY!

**koooaei**

gungo wrote:
@tneva 7pts a boy means nobody is fielding 200+ boys anymore unless that’s all your going to bring which means you already lost.
2-3x 30 Boyz is pretty much all I plan on taking especially since the grots are the real screen now.....
Or did you forget they eat other units wounds

Shoot at my boys all you want you are only killing grots!!!
Furthermore you can take the cheaper Morkanaut to protect those 2-3 units of skarboys. Plus the painboy on bike w lucky stikk!!

The days of playing 200+ orks is over

Detach 1- Goff
Painboy on bike w lukky stikk
30x skar Boyz nob w relic choppa
30x skar Boyz
30x (or 10x to combine and jump) skar Boyz

Detach 2-evil suns
Zhardsnark
Warboss on bike w relic claw
Warboss on trike (warlord)
3x grot screens

Detach 3- badmoons
Weirdboy
3-4x kmk
Morkanaut
Maybe killkans w kmk depending on price
Or tankbustas in trukks
Or dragsta w kmk if price doesn’t suck
Or dakka jet (but probably not)

My list will be some variant of the above... it worked in early 8th and leaks so far seems to only reinforce the same.

I think that spam boyz lists are better than ever. There are plenty of buffs to consider. Like deepstrikes, fights twice and rumored squad regens.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Weazel wrote:
So.. is there any point in running anything else than Evil Sunz? Maybe Bad Moons for your KMK battery, but other than that I think I'm never going to bother with anything else than Evil Sunz. A pity all of my models are painted Goff...

I think that deffskullz are one of the best. Also, snakebite vehicle and meganob spam might be decent depending on cost.

**locarno24**

Given that it looks like it's gained about a x3 kick up in firepower (much, much more against stacked penalty-to-hit factions), would a stompa mob - especially a pair of bad moon stompas - finally do okay?

**gungo**

locarno24 wrote:
Given that it looks like it's gained about a x3 kick up in firepower (much, much more against stacked penalty-to-hit factions), would a stompa mob - especially a pair of bad moon stompas - finally do okay?

Unless someone has the codex no one can accurately answer this question. There is just to many unknowns

**koooaei**

I'd say that if it still costs the same, than no. However, given that we could get a mek shop to get guaranteed 18 big shots or 36 gattler shots and a kff mek to fix and protect it a bit, it's not gona be totally useless. Still worse than knights, of course, but good for casual games.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's easy to calculate. Let's take a bad moon stompa.
Belly gun firing an average of 10.5 shots. 4.76 hits, 3.18 go through t8, 1.59 go through 4++, transfers to 5.56 damage.
Gattler gun, assuming you fire twice and don't get stuck fires an average of 21 shot, 9.53 hits, 3.18 go through toughness, 1,59 go through save.
Supa rokkit will end up as another 0.4 damage done.

So, a total of 7.75 damage vs a 4++ knight from your main gunz. That's not amazing for points. On the other hand you're likely killing a leman russ per turn. Which is also not very amazing but you also have mellee and you're a huge los block.

**TheunlikelyGamer**

So I know that dark eldar players will put warriors from 1 Kabal in the raider of another kabal to confer interesting combos. So my thought is can we put goff MANZ in evil sunz trucks? I'm going to try MANZ missiles again.

**Hades**

koooaei wrote:
I'd say that if it still costs the same, than no. However, given that we could get a mek shop to get guaranteed 18 big shots or 36 gattler shots and a kff mek to fix and protect it a bit, it's not gona be totally useless. Still worse than knights, of course, but good for casual games.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's easy to calculate. Let's take a bad moon stompa.
Belly gun firing an average of 10.5 shots. 4.76 hits, 3.18 go through t8, 1.59 go through 4++, transfers to 5.56 damage.
Gattler gun, assuming you fire twice and don't get stuck fires an average of 21 shot, 9.53 hits, 3.18 go through toughness, 1,59 go through save.
Supa rokkit will end up as another 0.4 damage done.

So, a total of 7.75 damage vs a 4++ knight from your main gunz. That's not amazing for points. On the other hand you're likely killing a leman russ per turn. Which is also not very amazing but you also have mellee and you're a huge los block.

I wouldnt bother with the mek shop. Not only are you not moving forward and fighting in close combat, immobile piece you have to end your move within 1" to trigger, but you cant shoot any guns on the turn of the "upgrade". So you've just paid 80 points to shoot 0 shots and then max shots the next...so averages? While giving up any board control two rounds of close combat, shooting from all other guns on the model and painting a huge target on whatever you upgrade. You don't get max shots when your opponent kills you in their next turn.

**locarno24**

Agreed. If you field a stompa mob and they're roughly the same cost, giving up one of your two unit's firing one turn for better fire next turn seems like a loosing call when you need to be stomping forwards to plant that rusty metal butt on an objective.

I know it's a 'how long is a piece of string' question, but I'm just tempted by the idea.

It's a bit better than the numbers you've advertised - Dakka Dakka Dakka's "extra shot" rule means every D6 shots generates an average of 4 shots, not 3.5. Not an enormous difference, but every little helps, especially since you can't damage the stompa's BS like you can its WS.

**Shrapnelbait**

Hades wrote:
koooaei wrote:
I'd say that if it still costs the same, than no. However, given that we could get a mek shop to get guaranteed 18 big shots or 36 gattler shots and a kff mek to fix and protect it a bit, it's not gona be totally useless. Still worse than knights, of course, but good for casual games.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's easy to calculate. Let's take a bad moon stompa.
Belly gun firing an average of 10.5 shots. 4.76 hits, 3.18 go through t8, 1.59 go through 4++, transfers to 5.56 damage.
Gattler gun, assuming you fire twice and don't get stuck fires an average of 21 shot, 9.53 hits, 3.18 go through toughness, 1,59 go through save.
Supa rokkit will end up as another 0.4 damage done.

So, a total of 7.75 damage vs a 4++ knight from your main gunz. That's not amazing for points. On the other hand you're likely killing a leman russ per turn. Which is also not very amazing but you also have mellee and you're a huge los block.

I wouldnt bother with the mek shop. Not only are you not moving forward and fighting in close combat, immobile piece you have to end your move within 1" to trigger, but you cant shoot any guns on the turn of the "upgrade". So you've just paid 80 points to shoot 0 shots and then max shots the next...so averages? While giving up any board control two rounds of close combat, shooting from all other guns on the model and painting a huge target on whatever you upgrade. You don't get max shots when your opponent kills you in their next turn.

I'm thinking KMKs are going to be best for the mek shop? They aren't mobile anyway, and if I read it right one model in a unit can't shoot, but if any models in the unit use the weapon they get the upgrade. So you get a full unit of KMKs maxing out the number of shots.

**ZoBo**

they count as separate units after deployment though right?

**Nuck Fewton**

except each KMK is a separate unit so that doesn't work at all.

**TheunlikelyGamer**

It might be fun to use the Mek shop if you took just the stompa in a small game.

**xlDuke**

ZoBo wrote:
they count as separate units after deployment though right?

Right. Unless they change it in the codex, which I don't expect.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
So I know that dark eldar players will put warriors from 1 Kabal in the raider of another kabal to confer interesting combos. So my thought is can we put goff MANZ in evil sunz trucks? I'm going to try MANZ missiles again.

As things stand currently you can definitely put Goff MANz in an Evil Sunz Trukk because they can transport keyword Ork infantry. I don't see that changing on the codex. However, neither unit directly confers its Klan bonus to the other - the MANz don't become Evil Sunz as well as Goff, they remain Goff but are just taking advantage of the Trukks mobility advantages.

**TheunlikelyGamer**

xlDuke wrote:
ZoBo wrote:
they count as separate units after deployment though right?

Right. Unless they change it in the codex, which I don't expect.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
So I know that dark eldar players will put warriors from 1 Kabal in the raider of another kabal to confer interesting combos. So my thought is can we put goff MANZ in evil sunz trucks? I'm going to try MANZ missiles again.

As things stand currently you can definitely put Goff MANz in an Evil Sunz Trukk because they can transport keyword Ork infantry. I don't see that changing on the codex. However, neither unit directly confers its Klan bonus to the other - the MANz don't become Evil Sunz as well as Goff, they remain Goff but are just taking advantage of the Trukks mobility advantages.

I just wanted the extra 4" of total movement and I'll Tokyo drift charge with the trukk. Also the ability to use the -1 to hit strat. Keeping them Goffs gives them the "exploding 6s" and if I put some Goff characters with them the ability to benefit from things like the lucky stikk.

**xlDuke**

Seems like a good plan to me but I think that stratagem is only for Speed Freeks units rather than Evil Sunz units. Units like the new buggies can have both those keywords but I don't think Trukks will be Speed Freeks, sadly.

**koooaei**

locarno24 wrote:
Agreed. If you field a stompa mob and they're roughly the same cost, giving up one of your two unit's firing one turn for better fire next turn seems like a loosing call when you need to be stomping forwards to plant that rusty metal butt on an objective.

I know it's a 'how long is a piece of string' question, but I'm just tempted by the idea.

It's a bit better than the numbers you've advertised - Dakka Dakka Dakka's "extra shot" rule means every D6 shots generates an average of 4 shots, not 3.5. Not an enormous difference, but every little helps, especially since you can't damage the stompa's BS like you can its WS.

I'vi included ddd in the calculations allready. I might be wrong but statystically speaking it's just a 7/6 increase of hits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anywayz, a stompa will shoot down an average of 1/4 knight a turn. Hard to calculate mellee as it degrades really quick in this regard. And durability is still really bad.