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mhalko1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.

It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.

That's the thing with bespoke rules, though - it could very well apply to a Speeder but not to a Battlewagon. It's possible they were trying to prevent an abuse of that rule that's specific to the Marine codex. I could see some potentially gross things being done with that rule by equipping the passengers with flamers, for example (though I admit I don't know Marines well enough to say).

mhalko1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.

It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.

Well if the rule on the landspeeder specifically says that it doesn't apply to passengers and the rule on the battlewagon doesn't. Isn't that just more proof that the Mobile Fortress DOES apply to passengers?

On a completely unrelated note. I am thinking that "Big Gunz" are going to be seriously good this edition. Everyone loves the KMK and people think the Bubble Chukka is neat and everything but look at the damage potential from a unit of 6 Big Gunz armed with Kannonz.


Against a T7 vehicle

6 Kannonz at BS3 hits 3 times at S8, has a -2 AP modifier and does D6 damage. Against a Vehicle with 3+ armor you will get 2 shots through and If your average roll for D6 is 3-4 then in a single shooting phase you would on average put out 7 Wounds.

6 Big Gunz with Kannonz aren't exactly cheap mind you, coming in at 162pts.

For a Comparison, the KMK in a 6 gun battery costs 288pts. Average 7 shots for 2 gunz makes it 21 shots total which averages 10 Hits at -3 AP and D3 Damage. Against a T7 vehicle with 3+ armor you are going to wound 7ish times the armor saves 1 shot so you inflict on average 12 wounds a turn. In the process of doing this though you will suffer roughly 3.5 Mortal Wounds from rolling 1s to hit. And I don't think Grot gunnerz can take the hit for you anymore.

The only downside in that scenario between the two gunz? survivability.

Mek Gunz have TWICE the number of wounds as Big Gunz, but more importantly, Mek Gunz have 5 Grot gunners to use as shields compared to Big Gunz who have 2.

But, since I would want those guys to be hidden in cover the entire game and since I can take 3 units of Big Gunz compared to 2 units of KMKs for about the same price I think I will stick with Big Gunz.

A further comparison. For 8pts more then the 162 for 6 Kannonz you could get 10 Lootas

For them they would hit 7 times on average (average 2 shots per gun) at S7 with -1 AP and 2 damage standard. So against a 3+ Vehicle with T7 you are going to hit 7 times, Wound 3-4 times on average, the armor save would save 1-2 . So on the upper end you are going to get maybe 4-6 wounds against that vehicle. And Lootas are even less durable then Big Gunz, though they can at least get in a Wagon.

The KMK is heavy D6, so it shoots 3.5 times as many shots on average

ThePauliPrinciple wrote:
The KMK is heavy D6, so it shoots 3.5 times as many shots on average

OMG I can't believe i left that out

i'll fix my OP

mhalko1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.

It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.

If the wording exists in the land speeder entry, but not in the battle wagon entry, then it stands to reason that it applies to the battle wagon.

So, here's a question. I played a game where I wounded a target in overwatch with a tellyport blasta, and I rolled higher than its wound characteristic, and it was removed.

But the tellyport blasta says you roll to see if it dies at the end of the phase. Does that mean the target would have been able to charge and make CC attacks, and then potentially be slain at the end of the charge phase? That sounds really dumb, if so.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
So, here's a question. I played a game where I wounded a target in overwatch with a tellyport blasta, and I rolled higher than its wound characteristic, and it was removed.

But the tellyport blasta says you roll to see if it dies at the end of the phase. Does that mean the target would have been able to charge and make CC attacks, and then potentially be slain at the end of the charge phase? That sounds really dumb, if so.

Charging and Fighting are two different phases so you're good.

They are now! Good call, thanks.

 davou wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.

It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.

If the wording exists in the land speeder entry, but not in the battle wagon entry, then it stands to reason that it applies to the battle wagon.

What? That makes no sense. Bespoke rules means rules are seperate.
For instance mad doc super cybork body does not have the restriction "this doesn't stack with doc tools" unlike every other cybork body rule. So it stands to reason that every wound mad doc receives will have 2 seperate fnp type saves for every wound.

gungo wrote:

 davou wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.

It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.

If the wording exists in the land speeder entry, but not in the battle wagon entry, then it stands to reason that it applies to the battle wagon.

What? That makes no sense. Bespoke rules means rules are seperate.
For instance mad doc super cybork body does not have the restriction "this doesn't stack with doc tools" unlike every other cybork body rule. So it stands to reason that every wound mad doc receives will have 2 seperate fnp type saves for every wound.

You misunderstand; If the speeder says the passangers dont benefit, but the battle wagon does not say the same... Then it stands to reason that the battlewagons passangers benefit from its rule that allows it to ignore movement.

What they both say under Open-Topped is that any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model (BW or Speeder) also applies to the passengers. The not being able to shoot while falling back or if enemies are within 1" are just presented as examples.

In the BW's case I think it would be fair to count the Mobile Fortress rule as a modifier and so it would apply to the passengers.

I agree. I think that is the intended ruling. Unfortunatley for me, my shop has made an "official" ruling and stated that is not how it will be played. So for now only manz, nobz and burnas will be riding in the wagon. Oh that and my standard "rokkit wagon" (15 tankbustas, bomb squigs and 4x rokkits on the wagon)

tilds wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.

It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.

Well if the rule on the landspeeder specifically says that it doesn't apply to passengers and the rule on the battlewagon doesn't. Isn't that just more proof that the Mobile Fortress DOES apply to passengers?

My thoughts also


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnU wrote:
What they both say under Open-Topped is that any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model (BW or Speeder) also applies to the passengers. The not being able to shoot while falling back or if enemies are within 1" are just presented as examples.

In the BW's case I think it would be fair to count the Mobile Fortress rule as a modifier and so it would apply to the passengers.

Seems like this + the different wording of speeder rules which specifies they don't get the bonus, compared to bw which omits any text saying they don't get the mobile fortress bonus.. and if by raw of open topped vehicles....

The wording for Open-Topped is the same for both the Speeder and the BW, the only difference is the BW has Mobile Fortress and the Speeder doesn't have any other rules (besides Explode)

@Sal4m4nd3r Seems like you need a new shop, one in greener pastures :Choppa:

To me, it's quite clear that the -1 is a modifier, and is thus ignored by both the Battlewagon and the passengers; that said, I'm unable to find specific ruling that says the "-1 to hit for moving Heavy Weapons" is a modifier... maybe it'll turn up somewhere. I mean, it's a -1 to the "hit-roll", not to the firers BS; if that's not a modifier, what else could it be? Mobile Fortress says this -1 is ignored, and Open Topped says it's shared to the passengers.

Until then, we await a GW FAQ... they better not mess this up, lol.

It's kind of the entire point of an open-topped Battlewagon; and that's not just the Ork in me saying that; it's just something that makes sense from a design perspective.

Reece said during last night's stream that they figured out how Big Gun units are divvied up. But I haven't seen the answer they arrived at?

Do 5 Lobbas turn into 5 squads with 1 lobba and 2 grots each, or 10 squads with 5 consisting of a single lobba, and 5 consisting of a pair of grots?

@tag8833: The second one; 5 lobbas+grots = 10 units (5 - 1 gun units; 5 - 2 man grot units).

Look up the rules for Thunderfire Cannons, replacing Single Techmarine with "2 grots".

theocracity wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Who is ready for GW to slap us in the face again and say that the Mobile Fortress Rule for Battlewagons doesn't extend to the passengers.

It doesn't extend to passengers. There is a similar situation in the space marine index as well with one of the land speeders. It can fall back and shoot still but specifically says the passengers can't even though it can.

That's the thing with bespoke rules, though - it could very well apply to a Speeder but not to a Battlewagon. It's possible they were trying to prevent an abuse of that rule that's specific to the Marine codex. I could see some potentially gross things being done with that rule by equipping the passengers with flamers, for example (though I admit I don't know Marines well enough to say).

The land speeder is a bad comparison, because it calls out what they can't do. A good comparison would be the IG tanks with the extended firing deck rule.

For the open topped rule it states any restrictions or modification that apply to this model apply to the units shooting.

Being able to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty is a modification, as such it extends to the passenger s as per the RAW of the open topped rule. Just like extended firing deck for some AM vehicles.

fe40k wrote:
@tag8833: The second one; 5 lobbas+grots = 10 units (5 - 1 gun units; 5 - 2 man grot units).

Look up the rules for Thunderfire Cannons, replacing Single Techmarine with "2 grots".

Good. That is the way i've been playing it.

How about the rules for shooting at the gretchin crew. Are they shielded by any unit or only the gunz?



I know this rule makes Mek gunz a kill point hemorrhaging jugular, but it also kinda makes them more durable in a way, because it is harder to completely kill a unit. They are quit an interesting backfield objective camper.

tag8833 wrote:

fe40k wrote:
@tag8833: The second one; 5 lobbas+grots = 10 units (5 - 1 gun units; 5 - 2 man grot units).

Look up the rules for Thunderfire Cannons, replacing Single Techmarine with "2 grots".

Good. That is the way i've been playing it.

How about the rules for shooting at the gretchin crew. Are they shielded by any unit or only the gunz?



I know this rule makes Mek gunz a kill point hemorrhaging jugular, but it also kinda makes them more durable in a way, because it is harder to completely kill a unit. They are quit an interesting backfield objective camper.

Yes, but it will encourage multi-weapon units shooting at lobbas to shoot each weapon separately to avoid wound wastage. Sad but true...anything shooting at orktillery is going to take a lot of game time.

I agree, the way the rules read, models with Heavy weapons embarked on an Open-Topped Battlewagon do not have a penalty to shooting if the BW moves, due to the way Mobile Fortress and Open Topped interact.

I prefer the grots being ablative wounds for the kmk. But I guess this will all be in the official FAQ.

Which ork units are the best in 8th?

The green ones...

Yeah, the red ones don't go fasta no more.

What about the purple ones?

@tag8833: Grots can only be shot at if they're the closest unit, period - think of them like Character units.

Also, Blue ones are the luckiest, so...

Well blue is luckiest and red is fastest so purple is probably pretty good.

This unit contains 1 Mek Gun and 5 Grot Gunners. It can include up to 5 additional Mek Gunz, each of which is accompanied by 5 Grot Gunners.

So I am more inclined to consider them all 1 big unit since it literally spells that out in detail.