Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

gungo wrote:
Honestly you don't need ghaz but meganobs get a bad rap. Killsaw meganobs this edition are good. They made it so the second saw is only 10pts more and adds +1 atk. They are slow and I think need a trukk and a warboss for waagh but they are brutal in combat.

Its only 6 more points for the second saw. U dont pay for the kustom shoota.

The weirdboy counts as an "ork" and therefore would only ever need 9 orks within 10" to get +1 to psychic power manifesting..correct? An aoe buff..the character is always in range of himself.

It's interesting they gave a plethora of buffs to choose from, based on character selection. Warboss for speed, waaaggh! Banner for accuracy, ghazzy/weirdboy for power, kff big Mek/painboy for durability (both of those has a unique mechanic they provide that buff with tradeoffs to each).

gungo wrote:
Honestly you don't need ghaz but meganobs get a bad rap. Killsaw meganobs this edition are good. They made it so the second saw is only 10pts more and adds +1 atk. They are slow and I think need a trukk and a warboss for waagh but they are brutal in combat.

Ghaz is a warboss though and is only slightly more expensive than 3 Killsaw MANz, while being just as killy.

Thrakka:
7 Attacks hitting on 2+ is 5.83 hits
-> for models with 3+ armor you get 4.86 unsaved attacks, each dealing 3 damage
-> for models with 2+ armor you get 3.88 unsaved attacks, each dealing 3 damage

3 Killsaw MANz
12 Attacks hitting on 4+ is 6 hits
-> for models with 3+ armor you get 6 unsaved attacks, each dealing 2 damage
-> for models with 2+ armor you get 5 unsaved attacks, each dealing 2 damage

So when hitting vehicles, characters or monsters, Thrakka already wins due to dealing more damage per hit. Two more strength only matter when hitting T6, so let's ignore that for now.
In terms of durability, Ghaz has two more toughness than MANz, a 4++ save and cannot be shot as long as he is not the closest model, but has one less wound.
He is faster than MANz, takes up less transport space, buff units near him and reduces morale casualties to d3 rather than preventing every sixth one.
That's a fat package you get for just 26 points extra.

So MANz are basically best for killing elite units with no more than two wounds, which would be stuff like terminators, nobz, berzerkers and the like. None of that seems to be giving boyz trouble from what I read so far though...

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Do you think Meganobz are good enough that they're not a detriment to run. I'm relatively new so I need all the models I can get to fill in points and I already own a unit of 3. I really want to get a second Meganobz box so I can get a Big Mek for the KFF. Do you think a unit of 5 will be all that bad?

The problem with meganobz isn't their hitting on 4s as they were hitting on 4s even in 7th edition unless you run the formation, they have one lesser attack but they can strike first if they charge. Their issue is the change from AV to T and W because with their S8-9 AP2 they were amazing against vehicles and multiwounds T4 models. Now that istant death is gone and vehicles have a lot of wounds they aren't as effective as before. They became tougher though, +1W, an armor that is unlikely to be completely bypassed and no more istant death even for them. Transports are also quite expensive now, which is another reason why meganobz are not as effective than before.

They have their usage though, they're not useless. But I consider them basically a tarpit unit now as 5-6 pks are not going to kill a 8-10 wounds model automatically. I see them viable only in a transport with another unit, 3 of them in a trukk with 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig or 3-5 in a wagon with bustas or boyz, maybe with a waaagh banner nob.

 Jidmah wrote:

gungo wrote:
Honestly you don't need ghaz but meganobs get a bad rap. Killsaw meganobs this edition are good. They made it so the second saw is only 10pts more and adds +1 atk. They are slow and I think need a trukk and a warboss for waagh but they are brutal in combat.

Ghaz is a warboss though and is only slightly more expensive than 3 Killsaw MANz, while being just as killy.

Thrakka:
7 Attacks hitting on 2+ is 5.83 hits
-> for models with 3+ armor you get 4.86 unsaved attacks, each dealing 3 damage
-> for models with 2+ armor you get 3.88 unsaved attacks, each dealing 3 damage

3 Killsaw MANz
12 Attacks hitting on 4+ is 6 hits
-> for models with 3+ armor you get 6 unsaved attacks, each dealing 2 damage
-> for models with 2+ armor you get 5 unsaved attacks, each dealing 2 damage

So when hitting vehicles, characters or monsters, Thrakka already wins due to dealing more damage per hit. Two more strength only matter when hitting T6, so let's ignore that for now.
In terms of durability, Ghaz has two more toughness than MANz, a 4++ save and cannot be shot as long as he is not the closest model, but has one less wound.
He is faster than MANz, takes up less transport space, buff units near him and reduces morale casualties to d3 rather than preventing every sixth one.
That's a fat package you get for just 26 points extra.

So MANz are basically best for killing elite units with no more than two wounds, which would be stuff like terminators, nobz, berzerkers and the like. None of that seems to be giving boyz trouble from what I read so far though...

However even with your Numbers above killsaw manz can still be improved by the edition of a waagh banner or benefiting from ghaz additional atk. Ghaz is either already at 2+ or you added his effect to him. I'm not saying ghaz isn't good. I was just saying he isn't needed for killsaw manz to be effective. 63pts is ok for 4x str10 -4ap 2dam atks. (Significantly better then the 54pts for a Pk/shoota man). But they honestly do shine when a waagh banner or additional hits (ghaz/warpath) are added to them. I think killsaw manz get a bad rap and can be fairly effective if supported.

Manz have become weaker even vs meq.

If you compare a klaw + kshoota meganob from 7 and 8, even a regular meganob (not a formation one) killed 1.67 marine on a charge. Now he kills 1.04 marine. And costs 54 pts instead of 40. Means that Kiliness per point dropped from 0.0417 to 0.0193. That's a 116% drop. It's even worse vs vehicles. Much worse.

Anyway. Let's take double killsaw meganobs. Their killiness per point vs meq is 0.026. If you take 1 killsaw and a k-shoota, the kiliness vs meq goes a tiny bit down (if you include k-shoota fire) to 0.025.
K-skorcha + Killsaw Meganob'z killiness per poin vs MEQ - 0.034

If you compare them to bigchoppa nobz - those kill 0.67 meq. But they're much cheaper and also have 0.025 killiness per point and shootas bring them slightly ahead of both meganob types. If you take stabba nobz, their killiness per point vs meq is 0.067 + 0.005 from shooting. Which is more than 2.5 times better than meganobz have.

Now let's compare the effectiveness of meganobz vs a rhino and a knight to what regular nobz can do.

Killiness per point of double killsaw manz vs rhino or knight - 0.042
Killiness per point of k-skorcha+killsaw man vs rhino or knight - 0.045
Killiness per point of bigchoppa nobz vs rhino - 0.038
Killiness per point of bigchoppa nobz vs knight - 0.025
Killiness per point of power stabba nobz vs rhino or knight - 0.022

So, we can see that bigchoppa nobz are almost as good vs t7 3+ as double killsaw meganobz. Significantly worse vs knights and comparable vs meq. Stabba nobz are 2.5 times better vs meq than killsaw meganobz and almost 2 times worse vs vehicles.

So, killsaw meganobz might seem as a good solution vs knight. However when a knight strikes back, he deals way more damage to meganobz than to regular nobz point-per-point. So, what's exactly the purpose of meganobz now?

I think the best way to run manz is to get a killsaw and a kombi-skorcha. And to run them in min squads. They can be relatively shooty, somewhat choppy. They cost a ton of points and are not that durable for points but they can concentrate some force in a small area and charge something eating overwatch. I'd definitely not spam them. K-skorcha manz are the killiest per-point of all the manz - even vs tough vehicles. But they're very fragile. 72 pts is a stiff price to pay for a single model. And you start to wonder if a megaboss is better than manz.

i played a game of 8th last night vs 'nid, 2k points (2004 to be precise), spoils of war, search and destroy deployment.

My list had:
hq
2 warbosses with big choppa
1 big mek in a bike with kff
troops
2 units of 18 boyz+ nobz with big choppa
elites
2 units of 10 tankbusta with a bomb squig
fast attack
1 warbuggie
3 single units of deffkopta with big shoota
heavy support
2 bw with 'ard case and deff rolla
3 units of 2 killa kans all with grootzuka
dedicated transport
2 trukks (for the tankbustas)

I'm not going into details but the tankbusta did the heavy lifting, killed 2 harpies in 2 turns and wounded an exocrine to half his health.
A squad of boyz with a warboss killed a squad of genestealer and the broodlord. In the following turn they were blown to pieces by some shooting leaving the warboss alone.
The other squad of boyz+warboss locked in cc 2 exocrines and a squad of warriors, they killed half the warrior but didn't do a lot of wounds on the exocrines, i was satisfied because the exocrine would have easily blown to pieces the trukks or the kans.
The grootzukas were a poor choice, i wanted to try it but skoorca or big shootas would have been a better choice, the skoorca would have handled the horde of termagant and the big shootas better range would have let me target valuable units.
The deff rolla didn't do gak but i rolled poorly.
We weren't able to finish the game and we ruled it a tie, he had more objective points but i had more units point wise on the table.

At the end of the day, the deffkopta were fundamental to grab isolated objectives but didn't do a lot more.
The boyz are too frail, if the enemy can shoot them they will die, fast.
The tankbusta were superb, my friend underestimates their firepower and didn't target the trukks until it was too late. Next time they will be his primary target so i have to find a better way to protect them.
Kff saved some wounds and was better that i expected.

most valuable play was me seizing the initiative with a lucky 6 .

 JimOnMars wrote:
I really only like the 6 point boss nobs. Same access to weapons, and can use wound allocation to boyz instead of 4+ armor.

1 nob with 9 boys is probably worth more than 4 nobs and costs less.

Since you have to buy everything separately, don't you need to pay 17 points (plus wargear) instead of 6 for the Nob that accompanies a squad of Boyz?

 wtwlf123 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
I really only like the 6 point boss nobs. Same access to weapons, and can use wound allocation to boyz instead of 4+ armor.

1 nob with 9 boys is probably worth more than 4 nobs and costs less.

Since you have to buy everything separately, don't you need to pay 17 points (plus wargear) instead of 6 for the Nob that accompanies a squad of Boyz?

Not to tout Battlescribe as the end all be all but even they have the Nob listed as 6pts.

 wtwlf123 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
I really only like the 6 point boss nobs. Same access to weapons, and can use wound allocation to boyz instead of 4+ armor.

1 nob with 9 boys is probably worth more than 4 nobs and costs less.

Since you have to buy everything separately, don't you need to pay 17 points (plus wargear) instead of 6 for the Nob that accompanies a squad of Boyz?

No they are free like veteran sergeants (cost the same as the other models in the squad). There is no listing for a Boss Nob in the points listing.

 wtwlf123 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
I really only like the 6 point boss nobs. Same access to weapons, and can use wound allocation to boyz instead of 4+ armor.

1 nob with 9 boys is probably worth more than 4 nobs and costs less.

Since you have to buy everything separately, don't you need to pay 17 points (plus wargear) instead of 6 for the Nob that accompanies a squad of Boyz?

That is for Nobz.. as in a unit of nobz. "Boss Nob" is a unit upgrade. and its free. it says in the index "replaces on ork boy" so just pay the 6 points for the ork boy you want him to replace, and any wargear (powerklaw, big choppa, kustom shoota..etc Although I just roll with PK and the basic shoota cause its free) and you are good to go!

Interesting. So are all "Boss Nobz" everywhere just equal to the base model point that the rest of the squad is?

Since there was no specific points entry in the Index for a "Boss Nob", I assumed I had to pay for a regular Nob...

So the Boss Nob in a Tankbusta squad is only 5 points (plus wargear)?

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Interesting. So are all "Boss Nobz" everywhere just equal to the base model point that the rest of the squad is?

Since there was no specific points entry in the Index for a "Boss Nob", I assumed I had to pay for a regular Nob...

So the Boss Nob in a Tankbusta squad is only 5 points (plus wargear)?

I made the same mistake at first as well. But yes a tank busta nob is only 5 points. So in theory if you don't mind giving up one rokkit you can have a tank busta squad for 73 points

 Bardiel_03 wrote:
i played a game of 8th last night vs 'nid, 2k points (2004 to be precise), spoils of war, search and destroy deployment.

My list had:
hq
2 warbosses with big choppa
1 big mek in a bike with kff
troops
2 units of 18 boyz+ nobz with big choppa
elites
2 units of 10 tankbusta with a bomb squig
fast attack
1 warbuggie
3 single units of deffkopta with big shoota
heavy support
2 bw with 'ard case and deff rolla
3 units of 2 killa kans all with grootzuka
dedicated transport
2 trukks (for the tankbustas)

I'm not going into details but the tankbusta did the heavy lifting, killed 2 harpies in 2 turns and wounded an exocrine to half his health.
A squad of boyz with a warboss killed a squad of genestealer and the broodlord. In the following turn they were blown to pieces by some shooting leaving the warboss alone.
The other squad of boyz+warboss locked in cc 2 exocrines and a squad of warriors, they killed half the warrior but didn't do a lot of wounds on the exocrines, i was satisfied because the exocrine would have easily blown to pieces the trukks or the kans.
The grootzukas were a poor choice, i wanted to try it but skoorca or big shootas would have been a better choice, the skoorca would have handled the horde of termagant and the big shootas better range would have let me target valuable units.
The deff rolla didn't do gak but i rolled poorly.
We weren't able to finish the game and we ruled it a tie, he had more objective points but i had more units point wise on the table.

At the end of the day, the deffkopta were fundamental to grab isolated objectives but didn't do a lot more.
The boyz are too frail, if the enemy can shoot them they will die, fast.
The tankbusta were superb, my friend underestimates their firepower and didn't target the trukks until it was too late. Next time they will be his primary target so i have to find a better way to protect them.
Kff saved some wounds and was better that i expected.

most valuable play was me seizing the initiative with a lucky 6 .

Hi, I like your list, it's not extremely different from what I like to play myself, I also play 2 BWs full of boyz (actually 3), the biker mek with KFF, the full bustas trukk and a couple single koptas. Just a few suggestions: Kans are awful, they've always been awful and unless you run a full dread mob army ditch them. Add the second bomb squig in both unit of tankbustas, only 10 points but they can change the game. Try ghaz with the boyz, it's a bit expensive but definitely worth it. KMKs are way better in causing damage than killa kans. Also min units of kommandos are only cost 45 points, and along with the koptas they can harass the opponent quite well. Deffrollas are awesome, unfortunately I have all wagons modeled without them but if you can use them, keep going doing so. The skorcha buggy is interesting and I'd like to try it.

Breng77 wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Interesting. So are all "Boss Nobz" everywhere just equal to the base model point that the rest of the squad is?

Since there was no specific points entry in the Index for a "Boss Nob", I assumed I had to pay for a regular Nob...

So the Boss Nob in a Tankbusta squad is only 5 points (plus wargear)?

I made the same mistake at first as well. But yes a tank busta nob is only 5 points. So in theory if you don't mind giving up one rokkit you can have a tank busta squad for 73 points

You dont need to give up a rokkit. The nob is automatically equipped with a rokkit launcha


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kans are awful, they've always been awful

back in my day Kans were tits. I would run 9-15 of them with a big mek and KFF shielding my HORDE of boyz. it was called the kan wall. Now get off my lawn.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Interesting. So are all "Boss Nobz" everywhere just equal to the base model point that the rest of the squad is?

Since there was no specific points entry in the Index for a "Boss Nob", I assumed I had to pay for a regular Nob...

So the Boss Nob in a Tankbusta squad is only 5 points (plus wargear)?

I made the same mistake at first as well. But yes a tank busta nob is only 5 points. So in theory if you don't mind giving up one rokkit you can have a tank busta squad for 73 points

You dont need to give up a rokkit. The nob is automatically equipped with a rokkit launcha


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kans are awful, they've always been awful

back in my day Kans were tits. I would run 9-15 of them with a big mek and KFF shielding my HORDE of boyz. it was called the kan wall. Now get off my lawn.

You are right I missed that.

As for Kans I think they are pretty good now. They shoot very well, are not too expensive and are pretty durable. They work well in any army where you have a bunch of vehicles. They tend to struggle if you don't have a lot of other vehicles.

The problem I had in my first game was keeping the warboss and painboy close enough to the squad to allow them to keep giving the aura benefits when they charge.

I advanced with boyz squad warboos and painboy then charged with the orks but because the unit I charged was further away from the warboss and painboy the warboss failed his charge and the painboy was outside 12 inches so the boyz were without the painboy buff in combat.

Is it legal to deploy these characters within the footprint of the boyz squad?

 Nithaniel wrote:
The problem I had in my first game was keeping the warboss and painboy close enough to the squad to allow them to keep giving the aura benefits when they charge.

I advanced with boyz squad warboos and painboy then charged with the orks but because the unit I charged was further away from the warboss and painboy the warboss failed his charge and the painboy was outside 12 inches so the boyz were without the painboy buff in combat.

Is it legal to deploy these characters within the footprint of the boyz squad?

Are you forced to move full distance when you charge?

There is absolutely nothing against placing a warboss, mekadread or any other model within the footprint of boys as long as each model is within coherency with another model from the squad. In fact this is a legit tactic called bubble wrapping.

 koooaei wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
The problem I had in my first game was keeping the warboss and painboy close enough to the squad to allow them to keep giving the aura benefits when they charge.

I advanced with boyz squad warboos and painboy then charged with the orks but because the unit I charged was further away from the warboss and painboy the warboss failed his charge and the painboy was outside 12 inches so the boyz were without the painboy buff in combat.

Is it legal to deploy these characters within the footprint of the boyz squad?

Are you forced to move full distance when you charge?

No you move up to your charge distance, and the only requirement is that the first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model.

Just as a side note, from my experience so far I would say that you never want to "base contact" an enemy with your charge move. Doing so prevents those models from piling in because they cannot end their move closer to the enemy, so you want to be a little bit away so that you can use your pile in move to both make room for additional models, and to trap enemy units in combat.

Breng, or anyone else.
Could you give an example of carrying out a charge like that. I think I get what your saying, but if you could give an example it would really help me out.

So roll charge range, charge 1 dude to the within 1inch. Then move the rest up, but not b2b, so that during your pile in you can ensure you get as many models as possible within combat range?

Solar Shock wrote:
Breng, or anyone else.
Could you give an example of carrying out a charge like that. I think I get what your saying, but if you could give an example it would really help me out.

So roll charge range, charge 1 dude to the within 1inch. Then move the rest up, but not b2b, so that during your pile in you can ensure you get as many models as possible within combat range?

I agree, i'm not understanding how to do this effectively. The other problem I had was when charging an enemy squad that was in a wide line I wasn't able to get all my boyz within 1" of an engaged model. (Similar problems to 7th)

The thing with charges and pile ins is that you must end your move closer to the nearest enemy model. So, if you're not in basу contact, you can move all the way around the enemy and end the move 0.0000000000000000000001 closer. But if you're in b2b you can't move the model.

I think I get it. Get the first model within 1" of the enemy then position everyone else to benefit from the pile in.

 Nithaniel wrote:
I think I get it. Get the first model within 1" of the enemy then position everyone else to benefit from the pile in.

Basically. Here's a (bad) example diagram. Assuming units are 6" apart and you rolled a 8 for charge. Pile-in gives you an extra 3" so boyz in the front go around the side so that boyz in the back can make it in.

Yeah similar to that



As you can see from my bad diagrams I was able to use the pile in move to move some models out of the way so others could get close (more important with more models like 30 boyz), further I was able to wrap around the right most model, which means unless that model dies my opponent cannot fall back (unless they can fly. If those closest models were in base they would be unable to make moves like this. Now if your charge move is enough to position optimally then you may as well, but more often than not it won't be.

I see, Thank you for the claification, the paint tutorials were spot on

So the summary is;

Take the first model charging to within 1" to make the charge a success

Assess whether your furthest back models are going to need to engage the closest enemy models in order to get to attack

If so, use the front line models to charge towards the sides and back models, but do not make b2b

Charge back models towards closest enemy models that the front lines have gone around

Use pile in to maximise orks within 1" of an engaged model

CRUMP DEM SKULLZ

Also as mentioned, if you can get around a single straggling model you can prevent the whole unit falling back. Or does only that model not to get to fall back and insta-dies?

Solar Shock wrote:
I see, Thank you for the claification, the paint tutorials were spot on

So the summary is;

Take the first model charging to within 1" to make the charge a success

Assess whether your furthest back models are going to need to engage the closest enemy models in order to get to attack

If so, use the front line models to charge towards the sides and back models, but do not make b2b

Charge back models towards closest enemy models that the front lines have gone around

Use pile in to maximise orks within 1" of an engaged model

CRUMP DEM SKULLZ

Also as mentioned, if you can get around a single straggling model you can prevent the whole unit falling back. Or does only that model not to get to fall back and insta-dies?

The unit cannot fall back, fall back states that the unit must end its move more than 1" away from all enemy units, moving states you cannot move through enemy models. So the unit is stuck.

The other important consideration is where your buff auras are, exposing your characters etc. You may want to trail models to get a +1 to hit from a banner nob, or a pain boy save etc. You also may want to keep those models covered against enemy shooting.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now it is likely your opponent will pull trapped models, but if he is close you can also do this on your consolidation move at the end of combat, so that will keep him from leaving unless he his positioning is very careful, or he dies his way out of combat.

I played a game last night against another ork player. I tried a kan wall against speed freaks, my observations are pretty much:

boys, shoota or slugga, they got better. anything they charge just goes away. Most CC attack rolls: 52

Lootas are the same. still great at shooting and can add wounds to anything. Not nearly enough to take down the bigger vehicles, but they do add up. the lose of cover saves really hurt though.

koptas, much better, one of our better anti vehicle units. running a group of 3 will slowly but surely take down vehicles.

the big mek, I learned we can take a SAG and a KFF, which sounded so orky I had to try it, neither really earned their points and the SAG was so disappointing. to much randomness and the BS5 just makes it worse. I used every shot against his wagon, only wounded it once and only caused 3 damage.

Kans are solid again, the WS5 is harsh for CC, but more rokkits on a durable unit is helpful.

my opponent brought a wagon, loaded with guns and 10 lootas and 10 flash gits. the cause of so much death and destruction and my loss. I highly recommend it.

I had the first turn and took out his bikers with my lootas before they could move so we never saw them in action.

trukks & boys still a good choice. they performed as expected.

dakkajet, flying into the back lines of orks is fine, but against armies that can shoot, probably won't live nearly as long. especially since I wounded it with sluggas good for a laugh, not much else.

Use of command points
rerolling the lootas # of shots. brought a 1 up to a 3, so worth it.

rerolling the flash gits, he forgot a roll or two towards the end of the game, but if you can get them a second shot it's worth the chance.

daisy chaining a mob of 30 boys to make sure the lootas had a LD 30, saved more boys & lootas than the KFF did.

things that were really unclear to me, is the big mek & grot oiler a unit? when you go to shoot at the pair the grot counts as a character, so if you maneuver right you can make sure the mek is the closest of the two and all wounds go to the mek.

The Mek and grot are one unit so you can put a wound on the grot first (use Mek's toughness).