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Interesting, just a note the dread klaw is 3 Damage not D3 damage.

Math says

Battle wagon averages 2.22 damage each round. (5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 2.22 unsaved (5+ save) so it should take 4 rounds of combat to kill the deff dread.(3.60

Dread deals 2.22 wounds each round for lets say 6 damage. (3 klaws is 5 attacks, 3.33 hit, 2.22 wound, no save on the wagon). Dread should kill the Wagon in 3 rounds.

Also of note that after 2 round the wagon is worse (only D6 attacks).

It sounds like you might be playing the dread wrong.

Dread is S 10 in combat with -3 Ap and 3 damagae, the kaws give +1 per klaw (not per klaw after the first) so it has 2 + 3 attacks (5 attacks)

So with average rolling the Wagon should never win.

Doing 50 tests using a random number generator I have the wagon averaging around 2 wounds, and the Dread averaging 6-7. With the Dread having a max round of 15 wounds, and the wagon having a max of 5., with both having rounds where they both miss everything.


All that excludes the Dread doing anything with its flamer prior to combat (either before it charges or during overwatch).

You could also for a few point cheaper go with 4 klaws and have 6 attacks, and really wreck the wagon, with 8 wounds average per round (so 6 or 9 each round).

How does a BW hit with it's Rolla on a 2+? It's WS5+.

v0iddrgn wrote:
How does a BW hit with it's Rolla on a 2+? It's WS5+.

it gets +3 to hit for the Deff rolla

I interpreted that those were additional rolls (i.e. Attacks) when using the Deff Rolla.

Yep I totally was doing it wrong. I was doing D3 damage and shorting it one attack.

That gives me plenty of reason to waste more time rolling dice all over again

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

That looks great!

I'll definitely have to scratch build and converst some, as 4-5 that looked pretty much exactly the same would be pretty un-orky.

You've gone and got me excited now ans im literally digging out kits as we speak.

killtank loadout? whats everyones thoughts? 2d6 s10 d4 bursta, or the 6d6 s6 d1 giga? initially i am leaning towards the bursta, with 2d6 using a CP a turn is going to net you a reasonable number of shots, question is, does it do enough damage? lets say you get 8 shots, 4 hits, wounding on 3+ against most vehicles. your only averaging about 6 damage a turn. seems pretty low output. the giga isnt any better vs tougher vehicles, but at str 6 it should be great at piling wounds onto light vehicles. Thoughts?

im thinking of sticking 2x5 man kommandos inside, gets me 4 burnas and some ablative wounds, i can then use the last two slots for banner nob and warboss/big mek

Where are the forgeworld index rules?

Something interesting: In my area are a total of five GW stores (not resellers with GW products, actual GW stores) each within 30 minutes driving distance.

All five of them are almost completely out of orks.

Apparently since 8th hit people are tearing orks from their shelves and GW Germany is unable to restock them as fast as they are selling their boxes. The only things readily available are battlewagons and mek gunz. The two deff dreads I got were from a general games store which forgot that they had one of the dread mob boxes in their store window, they were the last two in the area.

There is a Waaagh comming

So, I just got two Deff Dreads for my birthday, how should I build them? Obviously we won't hit gakk with anything that requires to hit, so it's skorchas or klaws.

Three klaws and one skorcha or two klaws and two skorchas? Or all klaws? Common sense says that I should always be able to charge when I use skorchas, but there are those corner cases where I can advance to get in skorcha range but no longer charge. How does it play out in real games?

Another thing I realized, Kanz with KMB are cheaper than Kanz with rokkits - has anyone tried running them that way?

Neither kanz nor dreads are all that great cause they are like 30% overpriced. However, they're definitely better than in 7-th and you can still have them work somewhat fine.

The loadout depends on what you are using them with. If you have a lot of boyz than take all klaws. As boys struggle with killing tough stuff. If you're running dreads more or less self-sustained, take either skorchas to actually kill stuff at range or bigshootas to keep them as cheap as possible. All klaws can still be fine.

I'd try to keep them on the flanks as durability is below average for points and avoiding some anti-tank fire can be helpful. If you have a kff mek, stick them together and than...it all depends on the opponent.

 Rismonite wrote:
Thanks for thoughts.

Also, Battlewagon with Rolla, if you wanted to design it to slam into light and medium infantry, how would a squad of 20 grots on board sound? At twenty they are BS 3+, it would almost be like the battlewagon suddenly had two Str3 flamers.

A deff rolla battlewagon is 180, with that unit of gretchin it goes up to 220. Instead of two wagons like that for just 4 points more you could get 3 Dakkajets which are slightly harder to kill (-1T but +4 wounds and hard to hit), kill 9 MEQ starting turn 1 and award +1CP for the detachment.

I think the battlewagon pays too much tax for being a transport to just use it for its close combat ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Neither kanz nor dreads are all that great cause they are like 30% overpriced. However, they're definitely better than in 7-th and you can still have them work somewhat fine.

The loadout depends on what you are using them with. If you have a lot of boyz than take all klaws. As boys struggle with killing tough stuff. If you're running dreads more or less self-sustained, take either skorchas to actually kill stuff at range or bigshootas to keep them as cheap as possible. All klaws can still be fine.

I'd try to keep them on the flanks as durability is below average for points and avoiding some anti-tank fire can be helpful. If you have a kff mek, stick them together and than...it all depends on the opponent.

Thanks for the advice. I plan on using them with my 5th edition kan wall combined with my experiences from my games in 8th so far, resulting in something like this:



So basically keep two units kanz in front of the boyz with KFF and maybe inside of the banner nob buff bubble (let's see how well that works in practice) and simply march towards the enemy until either of us is no more. Each dread is supposed to stick with one KFF mek.

go jidmah go! youll basically be testing a list im currently building! only difference being moving over to a brigade and using grot tanks for the FA slot. as they are cheaper than kanz and basically you can bring a unit of 4 for about 120 with either KMBs or rokkits (kmb on kommanda, as you cant take 2x rokkits, you have to take the 28 point rack.... so you pay an extra 4 points just for rokkits....whereas kmbs its only 2x9.)

maybe turn the dreds into a meka-dred. i feel like the meka dred is one of our best units with a kff, the ramshackle ignoring wounds is great coupled with a kff. plus if you squeeze it out in a brigade then the 9 cp is great for keeping tje ramshackle going.

 Jidmah wrote:


Three klaws and one skorcha or two klaws and two skorchas? Or all klaws? Common sense says that I should always be able to charge when I use skorchas, but there are those corner cases where I can advance to get in skorcha range but no longer charge. How does it play out in real games?

What about magnetizing the model? This way you can switch its weapons. I did it on the plastic dread and it's quite simple but very effective actually.

If you're not interested in this solution I'd suggest to go full CCWs if you plan to rely on its klaws and play it aggresively or to keep its standard setup (2 big shootas) if you want to run it as cheap as possible due to the fact that it's not reliable even with max close combat upgrades, and this is basically I would run the walker and how I used to run it in the previous edition. I'm not a fan of 8th edition skorchas but they're not totally useless either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:


I think the battlewagon pays too much tax for being a transport to just use it for its close combat ability.

I think the BW is useful if you really want the combo Ghaz + boyz since to teleport them you'll need 2 weirdboyz but deep striking 2x30 boyz is better than 30 boyz + ghaz.

As far as the dread, my only consideration would be if your kan wall has the boyz to back it up I wouldn't take any skorcha, just take klaws. If you were walker heavy and model count light and maybe need something to cut the bubble wrap then deff dread is ideal.

The other weapons are a waste I think, you'll want to advance and -1 hit is no bueno

 Jidmah wrote:
Something interesting: In my area are a total of five GW stores (not resellers with GW products, actual GW stores) each within 30 minutes driving distance.

All five of them are almost completely out of orks.

Apparently since 8th hit people are tearing orks from their shelves and GW Germany is unable to restock them as fast as they are selling their boxes. The only things readily available are battlewagons and mek gunz. The two deff dreads I got were from a general games store which forgot that they had one of the dread mob boxes in their store window, they were the last two in the area.

There is a Waaagh comming

Same can be said for some stores in SoCal. I think its really funny. Some dick in GW marketing or w/e arbitrary states that orks are one of the top factions upon 8th ed release. A bunch of people on podcasts echo this and it becomes common knowledge with almost no analysis. Just wait you will see a huge influx of people selling orks on Ebay in a few months.

Honestly if you are not using the battlewagon as a delivery system. Just take the squiggoth d3 mortal wounds to every unit within 1in on the charge on a 2+ And the 5x str7 his that do d6 wounds on a 4+ and at least you can still shoot in combat and has 18 wounds at toughness 7.

It's the same price as a battlewagon w deffrolla.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Just wait you will see a huge influx of people selling orks on Ebay in a few months.

Just as planned.

 Jidmah wrote:

Killa Kans
. . Killa Kan: Kustom Mega-blasta
. . Killa Kan: Kustom Mega-blasta
. . Killa Kan: Kustom Mega-blasta
. . Killa Kan: Kustom Mega-blasta

Killa Kans
. . Killa Kan: Kustom Mega-blasta
. . Killa Kan: Kustom Mega-blasta
. . Killa Kan: Kustom Mega-blasta
. . Killa Kan: Kustom Mega-blasta

I'd split the kanz in smaller units. Cause ld is a problem for them. And the +1 attack might not cut it.

so, now that our fliers have no facing, does that make all its weapons on a 360 arc? also, with the whole supersonic rule, does this mean we are basically doing minimum 20 inch square laps?

im thinking about using 2 fliers, starting on the edges and moving centrally, so that on turn 1 the flier bases after moving are in front of my walker list; so acting as a screen. does that limit my shooting in any way? the 90 degree pivot thing sounds a little annoying

Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Three klaws and one skorcha or two klaws and two skorchas? Or all klaws? Common sense says that I should always be able to charge when I use skorchas, but there are those corner cases where I can advance to get in skorcha range but no longer charge. How does it play out in real games?

What about magnetizing the model? This way you can switch its weapons. I did it on the plastic dread and it's quite simple but very effective actually.

I totally suck at painting, but I'm decent model builder and converter

All my models are magnetized or altered so you can snap-fit upgrades and weapons on. I even got three fully magnetized jets that can turn into any of the three ork planes within seconds.
These ones will be no exception, if only to share my magnetized kanz arms with the dreads.

If you're not interested in this solution I'd suggest to go full CCWs if you plan to rely on its klaws and play it aggresively or to keep its standard setup (2 big shootas) if you want to run it as cheap as possible due to the fact that it's not reliable even with max close combat upgrades, and this is basically I would run the walker and how I used to run it in the previous edition. I'm not a fan of 8th edition skorchas but they're not totally useless either.

But it gets more reliable with more klaws, the only reason not to take klaws would be using skorchas for overwatch or advance&shoot. Due to S5 and AP-1 it's even pretty decent against light vehicles, my kombi-skorchas have yet to fail me.

I think the BW is useful if you really want the combo Ghaz + boyz since to teleport them you'll need 2 weirdboyz but deep striking 2x30 boyz is better than 30 boyz + ghaz.

I think you got me wrong - the BW is totally awesome as a transport, on average it took about five time its points to take out a battlewagon and the boyz unit inside in my games. It's just not as awesome when you are not using it as a transport to deliver CC awesomeness, which is what the quoted player was trying.
I also don't think a BW is necessary for Ghaz, as he doesn't move any slower than a regular warboss.

Solar Shock wrote:go jidmah go! youll basically be testing a list im currently building! only difference being moving over to a brigade and using grot tanks for the FA slot. as they are cheaper than kanz and basically you can bring a unit of 4 for about 120 with either KMBs or rokkits (kmb on kommanda, as you cant take 2x rokkits, you have to take the 28 point rack.... so you pay an extra 4 points just for rokkits....whereas kmbs its only 2x9.)

But... aren't you missing 3 troop slots for the brigade? Of course you could just add 90 points of gretchin and jump them all over the objectives, but I don't feel like I need those 5 additional CP, especially not if I can get another ork melta weirdboy for those points.
Currently I can have 7 CP which are planned to use for re-rolling or auto-passing kan moral (worst case needed once per kan unit per game), re-roll failed charge ranges for kanz and maybe use counter-attack to ruin someone that would otherwise kill my walker in combat.
I don't have the luxury to re-roll whatever I feel like, but there is enough redundancy in the list so it doesn't come apart with one botched roll. And if it does, maybe I'll just remove a kan as a moral casualty. Chance are that it's damaged anyways and I'll lose only 2 or 3 wounds that way.

maybe turn the dreds into a meka-dred. i feel like the meka dred is one of our best units with a kff, the ramshackle ignoring wounds is great coupled with a kff. plus if you squeeze it out in a brigade then the 9 cp is great for keeping tje ramshackle going.

With the players here, if you want to play forgeworld you have to bring forgeworld. Kitbashing the current forgeworld flavor of the month will get you frowns at the least and store employees downgrading your model to its actual kit at the worst.

Also, since I've been playing since early 5th edition I can tell you it's not worth ruining a perfectly fine deff dread kit now to build a mekka dread, since it might go back to being a completely worthless model within a year or two. Or FW might forget they ever made that model, just ask anyone who owns a mega-dread.

Rismonite wrote:As far as the dread, my only consideration would be if your kan wall has the boyz to back it up I wouldn't take any skorcha, just take klaws. If you were walker heavy and model count light and maybe need something to cut the bubble wrap then deff dread is ideal.

The other weapons are a waste I think, you'll want to advance and -1 hit is no bueno

Haven't thought about frying bubble wraps. Good advice though, I agree on all other weapons being a waste of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
I'd split the kanz in smaller units. Cause ld is a problem for them. And the +1 attack might not cut it.

There is a warboss in the list and it has enough CP to auto-pass moral once per unit (after they lost 2 or 3 models).

Kanz are also just 60 points and vulnerable to many weapons that are great at killing boyz. Making them more dangerous and drawing more fire is exactly what I want.

In the end, losing a kan to moral means losing three attacks plus whatever the KMB might hit whenever that happens. Splitting them up means always losing 3-4 attacks, even if they are not shot at.

Sumwun git da Boss n rally da gitz da umies ar gettin a fite

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/10/the-fate-of-konor-more-on-the-global-campaign-june10/

Dem pinkskin gitz wanna av a go an not even invitin us

Where da boss dat green enuf gonna lead us to dis Ultramar? We ougt burry it in dakka cuz dem umies didn't even invite us.

 Jidmah wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'd split the kanz in smaller units. Cause ld is a problem for them. And the +1 attack might not cut it.

There is a warboss in the list and it has enough CP to auto-pass moral once per unit (after they lost 2 or 3 models).

Kanz are also just 60 points and vulnerable to many weapons that are great at killing boyz. Making them more dangerous and drawing more fire is exactly what I want.

In the end, losing a kan to moral means losing three attacks plus whatever the KMB might hit whenever that happens. Splitting them up means always losing 3-4 attacks, even if they are not shot at.

it's not just attacks you're loosing.

Solar Shock wrote:
so, now that our fliers have no facing, does that make all its weapons on a 360 arc? also, with the whole supersonic rule, does this mean we are basically doing minimum 20 inch square laps?

Yes and yes.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Something interesting: In my area are a total of five GW stores (not resellers with GW products, actual GW stores) each within 30 minutes driving distance.

All five of them are almost completely out of orks.

Apparently since 8th hit people are tearing orks from their shelves and GW Germany is unable to restock them as fast as they are selling their boxes. The only things readily available are battlewagons and mek gunz. The two deff dreads I got were from a general games store which forgot that they had one of the dread mob boxes in their store window, they were the last two in the area.

There is a Waaagh comming

Same can be said for some stores in SoCal. I think its really funny. Some dick in GW marketing or w/e arbitrary states that orks are one of the top factions upon 8th ed release. A bunch of people on podcasts echo this and it becomes common knowledge with almost no analysis. Just wait you will see a huge influx of people selling orks on Ebay in a few months.

Ork horde is competitve... not top 5 list competitve but competitve. However it's like the only ultra competitve list for us. I'm worried if ere we go gets faq'd to both dice only that will bring horde orks down a peg. This guy is showing how well Ork horde is doing. https://tidesofdestruction.blogspot.com/?m=1

 koooaei wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'd split the kanz in smaller units. Cause ld is a problem for them. And the +1 attack might not cut it.

There is a warboss in the list and it has enough CP to auto-pass moral once per unit (after they lost 2 or 3 models).

Kanz are also just 60 points and vulnerable to many weapons that are great at killing boyz. Making them more dangerous and drawing more fire is exactly what I want.

In the end, losing a kan to moral means losing three attacks plus whatever the KMB might hit whenever that happens. Splitting them up means always losing 3-4 attacks, even if they are not shot at.

it's not just attacks you're loosing.

Enlighten me, what else? This is not jeopardy

v0iddrgn wrote:
I interpreted that those were additional rolls (i.e. Attacks) when using the Deff Rolla.

Thats what I thought initially, but then it would say "+3 attacks". The wording seems a bit clunky, but it makes sense if its interpreted as +3 to hit.

Any thoughts on Forgeworld units? I think big trakk with supa skorcha looks good. Anything else stand out or test well so far? Looking at putting an order in.

Also has FW mentioned anything about the missing units? mega dread

Fought my friend the other day in a 1750 point game. He used his Tyranids. This is the first 8th game I got to use my Deff Dread, my Dakkajet (which is brand new), Weirdboy (also brand new (had to get the AoS Weirdnob model for it)) and my Gretchin.

I think the Deff Dread did really well. First turn (after he was sadly not able to charge his spooky Genestealers that came in a Tyranocyte and his Hormagaunts that came with a Trygon) in my shooting phase the Deff Dread contributed to destroying the Genestealers with its scorcha (got 5 hits and I think 3 kills, whiffed with the big shoota though) and in my opponents fight phase in turn 2 it squared off against his Hive Tyrant. He vastly underestimated the Deff Dreads CQC capabilities and had something else fight first so I used 2 CP for the counter-offensive thing and that Deff Dread single handedly took down the Hive Tyrant doing 1 wound in overwatch and then 9 wounds in melee.

The Gretchin of course were my troop tax to make the third troop slot for Battalion and surprisingly enough weathered the shooting of his Trygon with 2 models surviving. They did their job which was to just camp on an objective.

My friend conceded after his 2nd turn (so before my 2nd turn) so I only actually got to use the Dakkajet for one shooting phase so I think I need to run it some more to get a grasp of what it's good at. I had it fly over his army and attempt to finish off the Trygon which had 3 wounds left. Unfortunately I left it at one but in hindsight, if my math is right, that was statistically normal.
Keeping in mind that supa shootas are S6 AP-1 and the Trygon is T6 with a 3+
18 shots->9 hits->4.5 wounds->2.25 unsaved

Also need to use more of the Weirdboy to let him get an opportunity to shine but his WAAAGH energy ability seems really powerful. I cast Warpath on my mob of Boyz by rolling 6 (two 3s) and then +4 from nearby models so I succeeded on a 10. Unfortunately my friend denied it with an 11. The potential to just crank out mortal wounds with Smite though seems really strong on him (as others in this thread have stated).


Unfortunately my friend felt that his losses were far too severe to continue playing so as I said he conceded after his turn 2.

Of note was my Battlewagon's kannon which scored a hit on his Trygon AND rolled a 6 on its damage and my lone Mega-kannon which was able to take out a single Hive Guard model which was enough to make back its points and also denied him its rather powerful anti-armor gun (the thing that gives mortal wounds to vehicles).

 Jidmah wrote:

Enlighten me, what else? This is not jeopardy

Kanz are not particularly killy to begin with. But they've got passable durability. Which means that they can be used to eat overwatch and tie up opponent's units. So, the more kanz are still around, the more enemies you can neuter. It's highly unlikely that even a large squad of kanz will inflict enough damage to wipe anything meaningful. But they still provide utility. So, that's why i'd rather have more kanz around than all the same kanz but with a bit more attacks and a chance to loose some of them if the enemy concentrates fire.

Anyone else adding Smasha guns to their army? I just turned 5 of my Mek guns into Smasha guns I'll be down to 3 KMK's but I think it'll be better. I'm excited about that AP-4 D6 damage!
I also turned my two Traktor Kannons into Smasha guns. I don't see the value in them Kannons do D6 Damage and cost less.

Solar Shock wrote:

killtank loadout? whats everyones thoughts? 2d6 s10 d4 bursta, or the 6d6 s6 d1 giga? initially i am leaning towards the bursta, with 2d6 using a CP a turn is going to net you a reasonable number of shots, question is, does it do enough damage? lets say you get 8 shots, 4 hits, wounding on 3+ against most vehicles. your only averaging about 6 damage a turn. seems pretty low output. the giga isnt any better vs tougher vehicles, but at str 6 it should be great at piling wounds onto light vehicles. Thoughts?

I haven't tried either yet, but looking at the stats the Bursta Kannon and Giga Shoota seem pretty balanced against each other. I like the Bursta Kannon a little bit more, not because the Giga Shoota is bad, but rather because the orks already have a lot of high-volume, medium strength shooting.

I was a bit disappointed with the Bursta Kannon when I first looked at it, but if I'm doing the math right it's pretty comparable to four lascannons that are hitting on 3+. It won't annihilate an enemy tank all by itself, but neither will most other things. It's hard to get used to how tough vehicles are.

I'm thinking about running 3x Twin Big Shootas on my Kill Tanks. I think that normally Skorchas are better than Twin Big Shootas because Orks are frequently advancing, but on a Kill Tank or other vehicle that's holding still Big Shootas seem really good for the points. Racks of Rokkits seem overcosted, even with the Kill Tank hitting on 4+.

I think that the Kill Tanks are roughly comparable to Land Raiders in function. Kill Tanks have better overall damage output (roughly the same dakka, but Kill Tanks can fight in close combat and embarked units have a limited ability to shoot). Kill Tanks have 50% more wounds , but the Land Raider has a better save. Land Raiders have smoke launchers, which are situationally better than the Grot Riggers of Kill Tanks. Kill Tanks move a little faster and haul a couple more models. I think that overall the Kill Tank is better than a Land Raider*, and it costs fewer points.
*This isn't counting the effect of buffing characters, which can be significant. It's also assuming a standard Land Raider and not any of the variants.