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All the advatages PK has over BC;
-wounds T4/5 on 2, but -1WS puts it even with BC
-wounds T7 on 3, but -1 WS puts it even with BC
-wounds T8 on 3
-+1AP, effectively no save for 4+ Armor

This is what we pay 14 more points for :/

On a Warboss's Str6, PK can do;
-wounds t5/6 on 2, but -1WS puts it's output the same as BC
-wounds t8 on 3, but -1WS puts it's output even with BC
-+1AP, denying saves to 4+.

It is argueable that the PK is crap on the Warboss. It takes a S8+ attribute to justify it's use vs t8 without factoring the extra AP. In the hands of a Nob a PK is worse vs. T6 then a BC and in the hands of a warboss actually is worse vs. T7 (without factoring +1AP). T7 makes up a lot of medium vehicles guys.

I was thinking about a powerklaw on my warboss, maybe a BC is better. I think dual killsaws are the only meganob loadout, I think the gorkanaught is the only thing that should take a powerklaw. Except for maybe a S4 statline who would suddenly wound t7 on 3 when a Big Choppa would be 5.

Unless you can plan to always have the banner modifier nearby for models that have a 2+ WS, it is looking grim for the klaw. I've said it in more colorful words elsewhere, powerklaws are kinda bad now. They should have been d6 damage or maybe just a flat 3 damage.

Seems like edition Big Choppa, I know I always liked those bitz in the nob box

EDIT, wow Power Stabbas in Nob squads have a place vs. T8 when compared to PK as well :/

What do you think PK needs to be better then?

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
What do you think PK needs to be better then?

There are two options really:
a) If you want to keep it as the more expensive, but stronger version of the BC, then it needs to either go down in points to become more efficient or lose the negative hit modifier to become more reliable.
b) If it is supposed to back to its old role of killing stuff boyz can't handle, it needs to do more damage, like d6 or fixed 3.

Got a tourney list submission due soon. Unfortunately, I don't have any table time with tourney prep lists this edition. I was hoping you guys could give me a little feedback on synergies and combos, and the gimmicks I plan to exploit.

Info on the event:
- 2K points
- He who deploys 1st goes 1st.
- Can use CP to reroll seize
- 5 missions, 2 are kill points (actual unit points, not PL), 1 is the relic, and the other 2 are multiple objective missions.
- It's my 1st GT of 8th, and I don't want to get caught running a high model count army that can't finish games
- The local meta is big stuff. Last edition I went to an RTT in the area, and 8 of 12 players had 1 or more imperial knights.

My proposed list:


The best thing about this list is I can get it down to 6 drops. Yes, 6!. Here is how I pull it off:


Some other things I like about it:



Now some questions:
1) Am I wasting points on the Nob w/ Banner? Is there something else you'd spend those points on?
2) Am I wasting points on the 2nd Big Mek? Show I take a warboss for cc power instead?
2a) I'm a little tempted to swap a Big Mek for Badrukk. If ammo runts didn't take up transport space I'd probably do it.
3) Is my Gorkanaut going to be too effective at drawing fire, and get shot off the table turn 1?
4) Are lobbas worth their points? Are they going to be effective enough at cleaning up light infantry?
5) Should I split the Tankbustas into smaller squads. 4 Squads of 5 works about the same as 2 Squads of 10, but might give a bit more flexibility.
6) Am I dumb for chasing the Killa Kan dream?
7) I've got some fortifications. Should I try to put one into the list?
7a) What do you think of a plasma Oblit with 10 lootas inside?
8) Would I be better off running a Ghazstar in battlewagons backed up by KMK's?

Get some ammo runts for that Nob squad, it makes them a lot more durable.

 Jidmah wrote:

Yes, but you and I have both shown that boyz should not be fighting T8 unless they have no other choice.

Footsloggas can't really choose their targets. So, what are you gona do when a leman russ charges 2-3 squads of boyz that don't even have pks to wittle it down? Disengage and waste another turn with 2 of them? And than another russ completely neuters them?

When you could have had 3 pk nobz from different squads get closer and together with boyz, smites and bosses will have decent chances of downing this tank in 1-2 turns.

tag8833 wrote:
Got a tourney list submission due soon. Unfortunately, I don't have any table time with tourney prep lists this edition. I was hoping you guys could give me a little feedback on synergies and combos, and the gimmicks I plan to exploit.

Info on the event:
- 2K points
- He who deploys 1st goes 1st.
- Can use CP to reroll seize
- 5 missions, 2 are kill points (actual unit points, not PL), 1 is the relic, and the other 2 are multiple objective missions.
- It's my 1st GT of 8th, and I don't want to get caught running a high model count army that can't finish games
- The local meta is big stuff. Last edition I went to an RTT in the area, and 8 of 12 players had 1 or more imperial knights.

My proposed list:

Spoiler:

Ork - Spearhead
Big Mek (KFF) *Warlord

5 Big Guns (5 Lobbas) + 10 Grot Krew
Gorkanaut
6 Killa Kans (6 Rokkits)

Ork - Vanguard
Big Mek (KFF)

4 Kommandos (2 Burnas) + Nob (Big Choppa)
4 Kommandos (2 Burnas) + Nob (Big Choppa)
Nob w/ Banner
5 Nobz (4 Big Choppas, 1 Power Stabba)
9 Tankbustas + Nob (Rokkit) + 2 Bomb Squigs
9 Tankbustas + Nob (Rokkit) + 2 Bomb Squigs

Trukk (Wrecking Ball)
Trukk (Wrecking Ball)
Trukk (Wrecking Ball)

The best thing about this list is I can get it down to 6 drops. Yes, 6!. Here is how I pull it off:

Spoiler:

Big Guns
Gorkanaunt <- Nobz + Big Mek
Killa Kans
Trukk <- Kommandos + Kommandos + Big Mek + Nob w/ Banner
Trukk <- Tankbustas
Trukk <- Tankbustas

Some other things I like about it:

Spoiler:

- I can deep strike the kommandos, and put the Nobz in the trukk if I'm not worried about having too many drops.
- Light Mech spam to hopefully make it hard for opponents to deal with.
- Lobbas (I think!) should be good at handling screen units, and are going to be as annoying as can be to get all of the Kill points off of.
- The Gorkanaut is hopefully something that will draw my opponent's attention to let my kans, and trukks live for a bit.
- 2 Big meks for extra repair and KFF coverage. I'll probably be deploying them to cover my trukks most of the time.
- Kommandos get cheap nobz and burnas.

Now some questions:
1) Am I wasting points on the Nob w/ Banner? Is there something else you'd spend those points on?
2) Am I wasting points on the 2nd Big Mek? Show I take a warboss for cc power instead?
2a) I'm a little tempted to swap a Big Mek for Badrukk. If ammo runts didn't take up transport space I'd probably do it.
3) Is my Gorkanaut going to be too effective at drawing fire, and get shot off the table turn 1?
4) Are lobbas worth their points? Are they going to be effective enough at cleaning up light infantry?
5) Should I split the Tankbustas into smaller squads. 4 Squads of 5 works about the same as 2 Squads of 10, but might give a bit more flexibility.
6) Am I dumb for chasing the Killa Kan dream?
7) I've got some fortifications. Should I try to put one into the list?
7a) What do you think of a plasma Oblit with 10 lootas inside?
8) Would I be better off running a Ghazstar in battlewagons backed up by KMK's?

1.) Not if you want to use Kans, especially a big squad. They need the +1 to hit in close combat, they are super ineffective hitting on a 5+
2.)Maybe it depends on how you are deploying/moving, you don't really have very much Mek outside of the trukks so it seems mostly to give you the KFF save
3.) Yes, he is your only big vehicle threat so will likely eat all your opponents heavy multiple damage weapons. I've been running mine with a battlewagon of mega nobz, 2 Deff Dreads and 4 Kanz and he still eats a lot of fire power.
4.) Have not really played them yet so cannot say, but they look good on paper
5.) There are upsides and downsides to both, kill points being the obvious downside, being able to split up on foot being the obvious upsdie.
6.) I have not been impressed with mine so far, they seem like they should be better on paper, they don't put out enough firepower though (6 missiles for 378 points is pretty terrible.) and they are so-so in combat, they hit hard, when they hit, but only really against lower end targets that they wound on 2s and 3s (so T7 and below), and they need a banner to even do that well without it against anything above T4 they average 5.33 wounds (15 damage) per round of combat assuming no saves. Which isn't awful, but for their cost isn't great either unless you are hitting transports and such.
7.) not sure what would benefit you really
8.) Depends on what you are most comfortable running/would enjoy most.

tag8833 wrote:
Got a tourney list submission due soon. Unfortunately, I don't have any table time with tourney prep lists this edition. I was hoping you guys could give me a little feedback on synergies and combos, and the gimmicks I plan to exploit.

Info on the event:
- 2K points
- He who deploys 1st goes 1st.
- Can use CP to reroll seize
- 5 missions, 2 are kill points (actual unit points, not PL), 1 is the relic, and the other 2 are multiple objective missions.
- It's my 1st GT of 8th, and I don't want to get caught running a high model count army that can't finish games
- The local meta is big stuff. Last edition I went to an RTT in the area, and 8 of 12 players had 1 or more imperial knights.

My proposed list:

Spoiler:

Ork - Spearhead
Big Mek (KFF) *Warlord

5 Big Guns (5 Lobbas) + 10 Grot Krew
Gorkanaut
6 Killa Kans (6 Rokkits)

Ork - Vanguard
Big Mek (KFF)

4 Kommandos (2 Burnas) + Nob (Big Choppa)
4 Kommandos (2 Burnas) + Nob (Big Choppa)
Nob w/ Banner
5 Nobz (4 Big Choppas, 1 Power Stabba)
9 Tankbustas + Nob (Rokkit) + 2 Bomb Squigs
9 Tankbustas + Nob (Rokkit) + 2 Bomb Squigs

Trukk (Wrecking Ball)
Trukk (Wrecking Ball)
Trukk (Wrecking Ball)

The best thing about this list is I can get it down to 6 drops. Yes, 6!. Here is how I pull it off:

Spoiler:

Big Guns
Gorkanaunt <- Nobz + Big Mek
Killa Kans
Trukk <- Kommandos + Kommandos + Big Mek + Nob w/ Banner
Trukk <- Tankbustas
Trukk <- Tankbustas

Some other things I like about it:

Spoiler:

- I can deep strike the kommandos, and put the Nobz in the trukk if I'm not worried about having too many drops.
- Light Mech spam to hopefully make it hard for opponents to deal with.
- Lobbas (I think!) should be good at handling screen units, and are going to be as annoying as can be to get all of the Kill points off of.
- The Gorkanaut is hopefully something that will draw my opponent's attention to let my kans, and trukks live for a bit.
- 2 Big meks for extra repair and KFF coverage. I'll probably be deploying them to cover my trukks most of the time.
- Kommandos get cheap nobz and burnas.

Now some questions:
1) Am I wasting points on the Nob w/ Banner? Is there something else you'd spend those points on?
2) Am I wasting points on the 2nd Big Mek? Show I take a warboss for cc power instead?
2a) I'm a little tempted to swap a Big Mek for Badrukk. If ammo runts didn't take up transport space I'd probably do it.
3) Is my Gorkanaut going to be too effective at drawing fire, and get shot off the table turn 1?
4) Are lobbas worth their points? Are they going to be effective enough at cleaning up light infantry?
5) Should I split the Tankbustas into smaller squads. 4 Squads of 5 works about the same as 2 Squads of 10, but might give a bit more flexibility.
6) Am I dumb for chasing the Killa Kan dream?
7) I've got some fortifications. Should I try to put one into the list?
7a) What do you think of a plasma Oblit with 10 lootas inside?
8) Would I be better off running a Ghazstar in battlewagons backed up by KMK's?

Dont take big guns to a torney, 5 lobbas are 10 heavy support kill points!

I wouldnt say DONT TAKE the guns.. but just understand that they are 10 kill points. BUT if someone drops a unit in the back and takes out a couple grots or a gun, you have time to react. Thats why I would leave the kommandos in hiding. It gives you options. You can help fight off whatever is targeting the guns, or drop on an objective.

Also, [insert ron burgundy meme here] lobbas were a bad choice! I just dont see them being useful.. especially against a meta you described as having "big stuff"

 jhnbrg wrote:

Dont take big guns to a torney, 5 lobbas are 10 heavy support kill points!

No Big Guns mission. Retrieval (Crusade) and the Scouring. So I'm good.

tank bustas in small groups allows for extra grenade throws from the trucks. I am running 5 man squads. plus an extra free nob.

 koooaei wrote:
Footsloggas can't really choose their targets. So, what are you gona do when a leman russ charges 2-3 squads of boyz that don't even have pks to wittle it down?

I don't know, high five my allies because and imperial guard player shut down his own shooting?

First of all, don't get multi-charged by a tank especially not with three mobs at once, how is that even possible without your cooperation? There are simple ways to prevent this through proper positioning or keeping enough distance between you and the russ to make the charge difficult enough to pull off. If you can't help it, keep a warboss near a position where you cannot avoid multi-charges. If he is whithin 3" of the russ after it charged, he gets to pile in that combat and punch the tank without danger of retaliation. Also works with banner nob, weird boy, pain boyz and big meks. Since the buff characters tend to hang out together, multiple character might be able to do a heroic intervention.

Second, just leave the tank locked in combat with your 189 point unit and wait till dies after two or three rounds of combat. Which is about the same you'd do with a PK, except your chances of breaking out after two rounds of combat is slightly higher.
The leman russ is not tarpitting your boyz, your boyz are tarpitting the leman russ.

When you could have had 3 pk nobz from different squads get closer and together with boyz, smites and bosses will have decent chances of downing this tank in 1-2 turns.

3 PK nobz and their respective units are 615 points plus 62 points of weirboy and probably another 79 for the banner nob.
Using all that to take down what's best case is a demolisher with lacannon and multimelta sponsons (236 points) is a major playing error that will probably cost you the game, because a third of your army is fighting a single shooting unit.
You should just be charging your warboss, a dread, a nobz unit or tank bustaz in there to smash the tank, and not waste hundreds of points of boyz to fight something they are not meant to kill.

joshua.gray.williams wrote:
tank bustas in small groups allows for extra grenade throws from the trucks. I am running 5 man squads. plus an extra free nob.

Sold. Good points I hadn't considered.

So that makes me think I should add another HQ in place of the nob with the banner so that I can get an extra CP. Then again, Nob w/ banner is pretty enticing.

What do you guys think of a Weirdboy w/ Warpath vs a Nob w/ Banner? I like the longer range (cast before charge), and for most Orks the effective buff is better or about the same, but it can fail, especially with a low model count list like mine. Weirdboy also gets Smite which is really good.

Same can be said for some stores in SoCal. I think its really funny. Some dick in GW marketing or w/e arbitrary states that orks are one of the top factions upon 8th ed release. A bunch of people on podcasts echo this and it becomes common knowledge with almost no analysis. Just wait you will see a huge influx of people selling orks on Ebay in a few months.

I do believe I was saying Orkz would suck again as soon as the rules got leaked and I had to face a lot of flak for saying that. Now after a month people are starting to wake up.

The thing that boggles the mind though is that by strictly looking at the rules for orkz and other factions I was easily able to determine that Orkz would be crap again and yet GW and all those play testers couldn't figure that out. Reece from FLG is probably my favorite person in the world right now because it shows

A: how little he actually knows what he is talking about
or
B: That GW told him what he was and was not allowed to say.

Killa Kanz are going to be great and Stompa is amazing....Next thing he is going to show us how the Kill Kannon on Battlewagonz is totally worth taking.


On a related note to this, someone a few pages ago was mentioning Warbikers and how they are strictly a shooting unit. I agree completely. Boyz get 3 attacks on average (choppa) at S4, thats fine in foot slogging lists because you can field 30 of them and they get +1 from 20+ models. On bikes though? for the same cost as 30 boyz on foot you can field slightly less then 7 Warbikes. Lets say you take a big choppa or something on the boyz and make it 7 Warbikes though.

Those 7 Warbikes are about twice as fast as Boyz (boyz add in advance) and they have 50% longer range gunz that shoot 6 shots each. So 7 will net you 42 shots at S5 with no AP value. This will get you about 14hits on average and against T4 thats about 9-10 wounds. Not terrible. Now if you charge that unit of 7 you will get a grand total of 21 attacks for 14 hits and 7 wounds against T4.

For that same price you can field 29boyz and the Big Choppa Nob. They can put out limited dakka that is barely worth shooting and if you want to charge a far unit its better NOT shooting so your opponent doesnt grab from the front and add another inch or so to the charge. BUT when you do charge those 29 boyz and Nob put out a tremendous amount of choppiness. 29Boyz = 116 attacks hitting on 3s so about 77 hits and against T4 thats about 39wounds.

boyz are 6pts for T4 1Wound and 6+ save
Warbikers are 27 Pts for T5 2 Wounds and 4+ save and a Twin Dakkagun.

Keep your warbikers out of close combat and I really hate saying this because i own over 30 Bikerz, don't bring them if you don't have to. They are no longer worth taking due to the new Universal rules and the change in their stats. 4+ armor isn't worth as much these days, which is why they gave it to Nobz for free now.

Except orks don't suck. Horde, spite spam lists are competitive they may not be able to handle the top 4-5 lists but they are one of the stronger armies.
Right now it's stormraven spam, brimstone spam, conscript/artillery spam, ynnari (mostly harlequins), guilliman reroll circle... then ork horde/spite spam and a whole lot of less desirable armies.

Some people won't be happy unless we are the most broken codex. I'm not saying certain units can't be buffed. However orks do have at least one competitive build and lots of stuff that's decent for casual play.

tag8833 wrote:

joshua.gray.williams wrote:
tank bustas in small groups allows for extra grenade throws from the trucks. I am running 5 man squads. plus an extra free nob.

Sold. Good points I hadn't considered.

So that makes me think I should add another HQ in place of the nob with the banner so that I can get an extra CP. Then again, Nob w/ banner is pretty enticing.

What do you guys think of a Weirdboy w/ Warpath vs a Nob w/ Banner? I like the longer range (cast before charge), and for most Orks the effective buff is better or about the same, but it can fail, especially with a low model count list like mine. Weirdboy also gets Smite which is really good.

The effectiveness of the buffs depends on the unit which you use them. Units with more attacks benefit more from the +1 to hit than they do the extra attack (if you have 4 attacks or more in a unit +1 to hit from 3+ to 2+ is better, if you hit on a 4+ the +1 to hit is better if you have more than 3 attacks, if you hit on 5+ 2 or more attacks the +1 is better). The nob also can effect multiple units. So for Kanz or the Gorkanaut the banner is a better buff, for boyz the Weird boy is generally better. That said unless you are buffing the weirdboy you only get the power off ~60% of the time.

That said smite is extremely good. So it could go either way. You could also drop a kan for the weird boy which might be the better choice.

 Jidmah wrote:

3 PK nobz and their respective units are 615 points

Noone's forcing your whole squad to stick around. You can even not move some of the models or move them towards other squads, so it's not like you're wasting all the boyz.

Also...what else am i going to get for 48 pts - the difference between 3 pk and 3 bc nobz - that's gona be that much better?

So, i'm still taking pk just in case. They're no longer mandatory but i think they're not useless either.

 koooaei wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Yes, but you and I have both shown that boyz should not be fighting T8 unless they have no other choice.

Footsloggas can't really choose their targets. So, what are you gona do when a leman russ charges 2-3 squads of boyz that don't even have pks to wittle it down? Disengage and waste another turn with 2 of them? And than another russ completely neuters them?

When you could have had 3 pk nobz from different squads get closer and together with boyz, smites and bosses will have decent chances of downing this tank in 1-2 turns.

I want to expand on this. I think a savvy player will be capable to greatly slow down a footslogging list by throwing empty, drifting rhinos at our boyz.

What do you guys think of putting 3 rokkits in each boyz squad as a deterrant to this?

Sluggaloo wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Yes, but you and I have both shown that boyz should not be fighting T8 unless they have no other choice.

Footsloggas can't really choose their targets. So, what are you gona do when a leman russ charges 2-3 squads of boyz that don't even have pks to wittle it down? Disengage and waste another turn with 2 of them? And than another russ completely neuters them?

When you could have had 3 pk nobz from different squads get closer and together with boyz, smites and bosses will have decent chances of downing this tank in 1-2 turns.

I want to expand on this. I think a savvy player will be capable to greatly slow down a footslogging list by throwing empty, drifting rhinos at our boyz.

What do you guys think of putting 3 rokkits in each boyz squad as a deterrant to this?

I don't think it is very effective, I mean you will hit with 1/3 during shooting (assuming you don't run), and once every other overwatch. In neither case do you kill the rhino. Even in the unlikely event you hit and wound with everything it still won't die. At the cost of 36 points per boyz squad (assuming no shooting upgrades taken) doesn't seem worth it. That is the cost of 6 boyz. So if you had 3 squads with rokkits you could have 18 additional models (or 9 Kommandos)

Are people forgetting or just not acknowledging you can Da Jump right out of combat if someone lobs a rhino into a full/decent sized mob? And there is no way the weirdboy gets taken out with careful placement. Nobody to jump? Ok! smite with +2-3 casting it is.

Happened last game to me. He tossed a rhinoi into a 30man mob. He did nothing. I did a handful of wounds to the rhino in combat. I chuckled. I jumped the boyz out of combat and blasted his ass with my tank bustas. Done and done. I'm finding it hard to think of a reason to not bring 3 weirdboys for this reason. Two with Da jump and one with warpath. Sure you can only jump one unit.. but to have the options of choosing the right unit and possibly jump himself late game onto a far away objective.

And if 'eadbanger worked with a longer range I would be taking 3-4 weirdboys. If I could Jump a weirdboy with 'eadbanger and position it right to start sniping characters man o man would that be hilarious. But eadbanger says WITHIN 9" and jump you have be OUTSIDE 9". I would laugh my ass off if I could eadbang bobbyG right off the board because my opponent got sloppy with placement.

And why oh why would you want to run MSU tankbustas for an extrta grenade shot?? Why would you want to get that close with tankbustas when they have 2 foot range? In a trukk they have high mobility to dodge behind los blocking terrain and track down juicy targets? I'd rather manuever around the battlefield then trying to take advantage of an extra d3 wounds.

Edit: Disregard that last paragraph. I'm an idiot.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Are people forgetting or just not acknowledging you can Da Jump right out of combat if someone lobs a rhino into a full/decent sized mob? And there is no way the weirdboy gets taken out with careful placement. Nobody to jump? Ok! smite with +2-3 casting it is.

Happened last game to me. He tossed a rhinoi into a 30man mob. He did nothing. I did a handful of wounds to the rhino in combat. I chuckled. I jumped the boyz out of combat and blasted his ass with my tank bustas. Done and done. I'm finding it hard to think of a reason to not bring 3 weirdboys for this reason. Two with Da jump and one with warpath. Sure you can only jump one unit.. but to have the options of choosing the right unit and possibly jump himself late game onto a far away objective.

And if 'eadbanger worked with a longer range I would be taking 3-4 weirdboys. If I could Jump a weirdboy with 'eadbanger and position it right to start sniping characters man o man would that be hilarious. But eadbanger says WITHIN 9" and jump you have be OUTSIDE 9". I would laugh my ass off if I could eadbang bobbyG right off the board because my opponent got sloppy with placement.

And why oh why would you want to run MSU tankbustas for an extrta grenade shot?? Why would you want to get that close with tankbustas when they have 2 foot range? In a trukk they have high mobility to dodge behind los blocking terrain and track down juicy targets? I'd rather manuever around the battlefield then trying to take advantage of an extra d3 wounds.

Ok I had no idea you could jump boyz of combat, that sounds awesome!

I think he means running two 5 man TB squads inside a truck though. So 10tb total with maybe 2 bsquigs.

When deepstriking are you guys shooting before the charge?

Something happened to me tonight: A clever tau player had arranged his kroot in a sort of a line with spikes on it. And as my shoota-boyz jumped in and opened fire, he simply took casualties from the front, making the charge distance a full inch higher. And the charge subsequently failed. Maybe I should work more on my positioning when jumping in. I also think that I need to remove those shootas from my boyz, and give them choppas+sluggas. Choppas are simply better.

What many people seem to oversee are the flexibility and many other advantages we Orks have.

Sure, we can`t spam a Gulliman circle, we don´t have Lasercannons and all the fancy other stuff but we don´t need it either.

We have ass cheap units, we can spam Detachments for CP´s, we can go for footlogging, Speed-Orks, Walkers, basicly every kind of build we like.
Even our shooting units fight better in CC than the average Marine und we are still the best in drowning the enemy in buckets full of dices.

For myself i see us Orks as an allrounder army which grows it´s efficiency with synergies and the different units working together - now in times of 8th edition more than ever.
And unlike other armies the true value of our stuff depends less on the demage output.

For example 5 SM Devastors with LasCa`s: They will kill tanks pretty good, but suck at close combat, cant handle hordes, are bad at screening and 5LP are easy taken out.
A mob of Boyz with rokkits and clawboss / choppaboss will do all of the stuff much better but won´t handle tanks that well.
Mathhammer says they suck but your Rokkits will hit from time to time and the boss will also wound / kill some stuff.
And the boys can still kill the enemys infantry, hold markers, block the enemys movement - you get the point.

And your mob doesn´t need the kill the tank alone, for that you have other units. Weaken the tank and then kill it.


But it´s important to look at the game and units as a total - mathhammer is not everything.

Especially with all the nasty stuff you can do with the movement / charges / consolidation - which gives uns many possibilitys to fully use the potential of our units.

Example: 30er Mob with 3 rokkits, some shootas and nob: Rokkits go for a massive tank to weaken it (D3 rocks!), shootas fire at something else like a MSU unit on a objektive marker, then you multicharge tank and infantry which gives every modell the perfect target. With charge move and consolidation you can surf around the charged units to get closer to the next victim / marker or pile into other units as well to deny them their shooting.
In addition you have the huge footprint of this unit and the modell count which will make it much easier for you to controll the table and hold objektives vs MSU / tank lists.




I miss Flash Gits here!
They have decent shooting with good BS, especially with ammorunts which also make them more durable vs multiple demage and they can profit from Badrukk for almost no points.
Da flashiest gits also hit hard in CC and there is nothing better then a full unit of them in a battlewagon with dakka. You can stick a unit of tank bustas with them if you like cause Badrukk sadly can`t buff them inside.

Or let them walk and a dok support them. With the ammo runts he will easily be worth his points.

Btw i also think he is still good, even if you stick him with boys. 2-3 rolls of 6 may be enough to keep the carging mob over 20 models and when the first morale losses kick in every saved boy saves another one because he improves the ld.
Not to mention his healing option and the chance to throw in some extra claw / saw attacks.
And using multiple buffs on large mobs makes him even better.

gungo wrote:
Except orks don't suck. Horde, spite spam lists are competitive they may not be able to handle the top 4-5 lists but they are one of the stronger armies.
Right now it's stormraven spam, brimstone spam, conscript/artillery spam, ynnari (mostly harlequins), guilliman reroll circle... then ork horde/spite spam and a whole lot of less desirable armies.

Some people won't be happy unless we are the most broken codex. I'm not saying certain units can't be buffed. However orks do have at least one competitive build and lots of stuff that's decent for casual play.

You just proved my point while attempting to deny it. We have 1 build that is remotely competitive, and it won't stay that way for long MARK MY WORDS. As soon as people figure out that they can't bring Grav spam and automatically be competitive you are going to start seeing some better anti horde weapons (For SMs I don't know why they aren't bringing whirlewinds). And then the Horde play style is going to be done, just like Green tide worked as a gimmick for a few months before everyone figured out how easy it is to beat.

And beyond Boyz spam what do we have? Warbikers now aren't worth taking, Gretchin do the same thing as boyz but worse, Burnas and Flashgitz are garbage, Lootas are in the same place they were last edition, decent but not good enough, Meganobz took a nerf this edition, All of our flyers aren't competitive, Killakanz are still trash, Deff Dreadz are fun but impotent until they get into combat and even then its not impressive, Morkanaut? You could take a Big Mek with a KFF and some tank bustas for cheaper and still put out the same level of dakka, not to mention not killing yoursel with KMKs and KMBs, Big Gunz? I like the Kannon but that is about it, and Mek gunz? Dear god they hit that thing with the Nerf hammer HARD, what about the Stompa? 900+pts for a super heavy that doesn't have stomp, none of its gunz are worth mentioning and its CC abilities are CRAP for the points cost? Skorchas, Buggies and Trakkz are all in the same boat as well.

Our codex is hot garbage, you can pretend its not and give me excuses like synergy and buffs and what not, but, anything we can do, other codices can do better or for cheaper.


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Its called Specializing and for the longest time its been the mark of a bad unit. who gives a damn if Lootas have 2 attacks each? they are never going to use it and are paying points for CC abilities they don't need. I would gladly trade 1 of those attacks for +1 shots with the Deffgun. And the WS4? Same thing, drop it to WS2 but PLEASE give me BS3 or 4!

and our specialist units? Burna Boyz? D3 instead of D6 and only 2 attacks? utter trash. The only decent specialist unit we have really is Tankbustas which is why you see them spammed everywhere.

Boyz and Bustas across the board.

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoiler:

gungo wrote:
Except orks don't suck. Horde, spite spam lists are competitive they may not be able to handle the top 4-5 lists but they are one of the stronger armies.
Right now it's stormraven spam, brimstone spam, conscript/artillery spam, ynnari (mostly harlequins), guilliman reroll circle... then ork horde/spite spam and a whole lot of less desirable armies.

Some people won't be happy unless we are the most broken codex. I'm not saying certain units can't be buffed. However orks do have at least one competitive build and lots of stuff that's decent for casual play.

You just proved my point while attempting to deny it. We have 1 build that is remotely competitive, and it won't stay that way for long MARK MY WORDS. As soon as people figure out that they can't bring Grav spam and automatically be competitive you are going to start seeing some better anti horde weapons (For SMs I don't know why they aren't bringing whirlewinds). And then the Horde play style is going to be done, just like Green tide worked as a gimmick for a few months before everyone figured out how easy it is to beat.

And beyond Boyz spam what do we have? Warbikers now aren't worth taking, Gretchin do the same thing as boyz but worse, Burnas and Flashgitz are garbage, Lootas are in the same place they were last edition, decent but not good enough, Meganobz took a nerf this edition, All of our flyers aren't competitive, Killakanz are still trash, Deff Dreadz are fun but impotent until they get into combat and even then its not impressive, Morkanaut? You could take a Big Mek with a KFF and some tank bustas for cheaper and still put out the same level of dakka, not to mention not killing yoursel with KMKs and KMBs, Big Gunz? I like the Kannon but that is about it, and Mek gunz? Dear god they hit that thing with the Nerf hammer HARD, what about the Stompa? 900+pts for a super heavy that doesn't have stomp, none of its gunz are worth mentioning and its CC abilities are CRAP for the points cost? Skorchas, Buggies and Trakkz are all in the same boat as well.

Our codex is hot garbage, you can pretend its not and give me excuses like synergy and buffs and what not, but, anything we can do, other codices can do better or for cheaper.

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Spoiler:

 Grotrebel wrote:
What many people seem to oversee are the flexibility and many other advantages we Orks have.

Sure, we can`t spam a Gulliman circle, we don´t have Lasercannons and all the fancy other stuff but we don´t need it either.

We have ass cheap units, we can spam Detachments for CP´s, we can go for footlogging, Speed-Orks, Walkers, basicly every kind of build we like.
Even our shooting units fight better in CC than the average Marine und we are still the best in drowning the enemy in buckets full of dices.

For myself i see us Orks as an allrounder army which grows it´s efficiency with synergies and the different units working together - now in times of 8th edition more than ever.
And unlike other armies the true value of our stuff depends less on the demage output.

For example 5 SM Devastors with LasCa`s: They will kill tanks pretty good, but suck at close combat, cant handle hordes, are bad at screening and 5LP are easy taken out.
A mob of Boyz with rokkits and clawboss / choppaboss will do all of the stuff much better but won´t handle tanks that well.
Mathhammer says they suck but your Rokkits will hit from time to time and the boss will also wound / kill some stuff.
And the boys can still kill the enemys infantry, hold markers, block the enemys movement - you get the point.

And your mob doesn´t need the kill the tank alone, for that you have other units. Weaken the tank and then kill it.


But it´s important to look at the game and units as a total - mathhammer is not everything.

Especially with all the nasty stuff you can do with the movement / charges / consolidation - which gives uns many possibilitys to fully use the potential of our units.

Example: 30er Mob with 3 rokkits, some shootas and nob: Rokkits go for a massive tank to weaken it (D3 rocks!), shootas fire at something else like a MSU unit on a objektive marker, then you multicharge tank and infantry which gives every modell the perfect target. With charge move and consolidation you can surf around the charged units to get closer to the next victim / marker or pile into other units as well to deny them their shooting.
In addition you have the huge footprint of this unit and the modell count which will make it much easier for you to controll the table and hold objektives vs MSU / tank lists.




I miss Flash Gits here!
They have decent shooting with good BS, especially with ammorunts which also make them more durable vs multiple demage and they can profit from Badrukk for almost no points.
Da flashiest gits also hit hard in CC and there is nothing better then a full unit of them in a battlewagon with dakka. You can stick a unit of tank bustas with them if you like cause Badrukk sadly can`t buff them inside.

Or let them walk and a dok support them. With the ammo runts he will easily be worth his points.

Btw i also think he is still good, even if you stick him with boys. 2-3 rolls of 6 may be enough to keep the carging mob over 20 models and when the first morale losses kick in every saved boy saves another one because he improves the ld.
Not to mention his healing option and the chance to throw in some extra claw / saw attacks.
And using multiple buffs on large mobs makes him even better.

Its called Specializing and for the longest time its been the mark of a good unit. who gives a damn if Lootas have 2 attacks each? they are never going to use it and are paying points for CC abilities they don't need. I would gladly trade 1 of those attacks for +1 shots with the Deffgun. And the WS4? Same thing, drop it to WS2 but PLEASE give me BS3 or 4!

Spoiler:

and our specialist units? Burna Boyz? D3 instead of D6 and only 2 attacks? utter trash. The only decent specialist unit we have really is Tankbustas which is why you see them spammed everywhere.

Boyz and Bustas across the board.

Orkz should only be trying to get in CC, I concur!

About specialization;
-An ork with Choppa Slugga wastes no stats in shooting, save for firing a pistol, terribly, at those remaining in CC
-Deff Rolla now allows the wagonz to fite, if only a modest contributor
-Big Choppa is undercosted in an ork's hands, I guarantee it.
-We can't shoot, so plan to ignore fliers, unless you are the brand of ork who brings 81 Stormboyz and 9 Stormboy Nobz with Big Choppa to a fight.
-Automatic Hits should be the only shooting profiles your bring

Hate to break the news to you buttercup the meta is already anti horde stormraven spam and conscript/artillery spam is anti horde... as horde is he current hotness.
And yet even with an anti horde meta orks still took 2nd at the Caledonia major tournament right behind stormraven spam and beating out a bunch of the other top lists I mention. So stop crying about how orks suck they don't.

Orks don't suck. He is trolling. But the number of units that are decent to great I think are like 7-8

Boyz. Nobz/Mega armor nobz. Ghaz. Weirdboy. Tankbustas. Lootas. Kommandos.

pismakron wrote:
When deepstriking are you guys shooting before the charge?

Something happened to me tonight: A clever tau player had arranged his kroot in a sort of a line with spikes on it. And as my shoota-boyz jumped in and opened fire, he simply took casualties from the front, making the charge distance a full inch higher. And the charge subsequently failed. Maybe I should work more on my positioning when jumping in. I also think that I need to remove those shootas from my boyz, and give them choppas+sluggas. Choppas are simply better.

I think it's best to place your boyz such that they can shoot at one unit and charge another. The charge will almost certainly do enough damage to cause a morale failure (barring whatever rule they have to mitigate that) and doesn't risk shorting the charge. The shooting is just extra. If it's 30 shoota boyz, you have the best of both worlds and you can wreck 2 units, unless the shooting target is a vehicle.

Shoota Boyz or Slugga/choppa Boyz? I see most people saying the later, but lists that are winning tournaments seem to be going shoota.

Thoughts?

It's hard to say. Sometimes you need shootas, sometimes you need sluggas. Why not both? Especially when you can go with a mix in every squad.