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I think you should go for both. The chance to shoot at one target and charge another makes up for the 18'' range. And you still can bring heavy weapons. And fire them while advancing. 5+ vs 6+ makes no big difference when you bring enough dices.

I'm not sure rokkits are all that great in boyz squads. Sure, you'll be firing them half of the game but they won't hit all that often as boyz need to advance to get anywhere.

I think rokkits are aren't worthy of their point cost. Only -2AP.
kustom-mega blasta on the other hand became very good for my deffkopta.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Orks don't suck. He is trolling. But the number of units that are decent to great I think are like 7-8

Boyz. Nobz/Mega armor nobz. Ghaz. Weirdboy. Tankbustas. Lootas. Kommandos.

Trukks, BWs, nob with waaagh banner, big mek with KFF, painboyz/grotsnik, stormboyz, zagstruck, biker bosses/zhadsnark and some mek gunz are also fine, good or viable at least. Maybe even koptas and dakkajets, which are units that I've never played even in the previous edition but they don't look completely useless. Maybe even the nauts. We've got several decent options, but only boyz, ghaz, weirdboyz and bustas are really great.

I'm currently struggling more with my SW rather than orks. And I don't play with more than 60 boyz typically, only a few times I've tried 90 of them, footslogging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thenewgozoku wrote:
I think rokkits are aren't worthy of their point cost. Only -2AP.

Tankbustas have the re-roll against vehicles, though, which helps a lot. And they can use bomb squigs and melta bombs too.

I am not really sold on shootas for boyz. I find I am always advancing my boyz and going from 5 to hit to 6 cuts your damage output in half. Like my super rough estimates for a 30 boy blob all in range are 60 shots, hitting on 5s, 20 hits, 10 wounds v t4 and assuming its a marine you kill 3 or 4 which are probably going to be taken from the front and cut your charge. Or if you advanced you get 10 hits, 5 wounds and maybe kill 2 marines.

Or you 1 more attack on each boy in melee that hits on a 3 in addition to pistol shots in and outside of melee which is far better for any slug fests that go down and plays into the pure assault mindset of the orks. Like you wont outshoot anyone and you lose a solid edge you have in melee against melee armies if you take shootas.

IDK I am no pro so I could be entirely wrong, but I am just not seeing the value of shootas over choppas.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I am not really sold on shootas for boyz. I find I am always advancing my boyz and going from 5 to hit to 6 cuts your damage output in half. Like my super rough estimates for a 30 boy blob all in range are 60 shots, hitting on 5s, 20 hits, 10 wounds v t4 and assuming its a marine you kill 3 or 4 which are probably going to be taken from the front and cut your charge. Or if you advanced you get 10 hits, 5 wounds and maybe kill 2 marines.

Sometimes you just need all the shooting you can get - even if it's bad shooting. In my game vs necrons i had 3 blobs of boyz with 10 shootas in each squad. They all advanced and together with ghaz's t-l bigshoota and a wierdboy'z smite managed to kill 2 scarab bases. But that was enough to get to immortals and wipe them out. If i didn't have shootas, i'd have to hang out in the open for another turn. So, i'd suffer way more casualties if i couldn't kill those 2 scarabs blocking the way.

 koooaei wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I am not really sold on shootas for boyz. I find I am always advancing my boyz and going from 5 to hit to 6 cuts your damage output in half. Like my super rough estimates for a 30 boy blob all in range are 60 shots, hitting on 5s, 20 hits, 10 wounds v t4 and assuming its a marine you kill 3 or 4 which are probably going to be taken from the front and cut your charge. Or if you advanced you get 10 hits, 5 wounds and maybe kill 2 marines.

Sometimes you just need all the shooting you can get - even if it's bad shooting. In my game vs necrons i had 3 blobs of boyz with 10 shootas in each squad. They all advanced and together with ghaz's t-l bigshoota and a wierdboy'z smite managed to kill 2 scarab bases. But that was enough to get to immortals and wipe them out. If i didn't have shootas, i'd have to hang out in the open for another turn. So, i'd suffer way more casualties if i couldn't kill those 2 scarabs blocking the way.

These are the situations where shootas work. Plus, its no extra cost to take them, and assuming you take casualties on the way from enemy shooting and overwatch; if the enemy doesn't have chaff and screens and roadblocks.... then you just take out the shootas first. 10 shootas or 1/3 of the unit seems decent balance (maybe go more shootas at lower unit sizes, not sure). But i see little downside. you lose 10 attacks assuming the blob makes it there completely untouched. Thats then assuming you also make it into combat with all 30. Not to mention they can split fire. So maybe their is a remnant unit that has fallen back and is down to very little; a couple marines left. having 10 shootas in a squad put some shots in isn't going to hurt, then they can charge into the unit you want to charge with the choppas.

Also, once you do start seeing combat you may not need to advance in the following turns to get to the next combat. At that point the shoota's go back to BS5. potentially good for polishing off falling back units. I feel if your running a horde there's not much of a downside to having 1/3 shoota boyz. the extra range will either be useless; in which case they become the first to die. Or you'll decide that anything you charge is going to die (because a horde is going to output soo many dice), so having shootas helps for the odd situations where you need the range.

Not saying shootas are a total game changer.
But 5-10 of them in a large mob will kill something from time to time.
And you can still take them out when you suffer your first casualties and see they will be no good for you.
For example vs mech only and if you're using your warboss to advance them and charge and you need all attacks you can get.

I actually like to keep them alive till the end of the game where sometimes a hand full of wounds can make an important difference.
Especially when your warboss got taken out and your footloggers lack flexibility when they can't advance and charge anymore.
Then you will be happy to have your rokkits left.

But still your right they are expensive and you won't profit from the shootas all the time.
Depends on the enemy and the situation but i like the flexibility they give.

And last but not least i would feel bad for my bad moons if i don't give them their three heavy weapons.^^

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/07/13/wetcoast-gt-2017-recap-lists/


Orks took first at a decently large tournament; using big guns, dakkajets and a bike mek with kff.... but those units suck, so please disregard the results. /s

I like the idea of filling out deatchments with cheap heavy guns, getting to use them to squat backfield as well as buy extra command points is well thought out.

Its also strange that 30 man ork blobs have become some of the most mobile units in the game

 davou wrote:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/07/13/wetcoast-gt-2017-recap-lists/
Orks took first at a decently large tournament; using big guns, dakkajets and a bike mek with kff.... but those units suck, so please disregard the results. /s

We can always say that he won not because of those units but inspite of them!

Well, min squads of big gunz are ok for grabbing points backfield if there are no killpoints in the mission, i think everyone agrees here. He still had Ghaz, wierdboyz and 3*30 boyz. So, the core is basically what's established to be good in our book.

It's interesting to see if he actually got any mileage out of a biker big mek, painboy and all those rokkits. Still not sold on dakkajets. They're pretty bad when you compare them to what other armies get. But i guess it's not that horrible for orks after all. We do need some shooting.

 davou wrote:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/07/13/wetcoast-gt-2017-recap-lists/


Orks took first at a decently large tournament; using big guns, dakkajets and a bike mek with kff.... but those units suck, so please disregard the results. /s

I like the idea of filling out deatchments with cheap heavy guns, getting to use them to squat backfield as well as buy extra command points is well thought out.

Its also strange that 30 man ork blobs have become some of the most mobile units in the game

no one has ever said big meks on bikes suck, Daka jets which is out best flyer sucks, or kannon spam sucks (it's only problem is kill points)
You also fail to mention the rest of his list was 30boyblob spam and smite weird boy spam.. which are our best units this edition. Ghaz is good as well. And the pain boy is ok but would have been better with grotsnik or killsaw for 3-4pts more. And that was his entire list essentially boyspam w weird boys and kannons.

 koooaei wrote:

We can always say that he won not because of those units but inspite of them!

Would certainly be interested to know the history of that player If hes just and old ork hand comming out of the woodworks finally, or if hes a tournament regular who picked up orks during the 8th switch.

 koooaei wrote:

 davou wrote:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/07/13/wetcoast-gt-2017-recap-lists/
Orks took first at a decently large tournament; using big guns, dakkajets and a bike mek with kff.... but those units suck, so please disregard the results. /s

We can always say that he won not because of those units but inspite of them!

Well, min squads of big gunz are ok for grabbing points backfield if there are no killpoints in the mission, i think everyone agrees here. He still had Ghaz, wierdboyz and 3*30 boyz. So, the core is basically what's established to be good in our book.

It's interesting to see if he actually got any mileage out of a biker big mek, painboy and all those rokkits. Still not sold on dakkajets. They're pretty bad when you compare them to what other armies get. But i guess it's not that horrible for orks after all. We do need some shooting.

a single biker big men can cover 3 30boy squads it's basically auto include right now. The meta is flyer spam and hordes with the dakka jets put out incredible amounts of 4+ str6 shooting. It's not a stormraven but it's decent. Rokkits are egh if he advances they hit on 6s and the pain boy is ok but might as well make him a Maddoc for 4pts.

I always include a biker big mek with KFF but mostly because I don't run footsloggers and a 5+ invuln given to trukks or BWs is handy. I'm also not sold on tankbustas in trukks in a footslogging list as those lone two trukks will take all the anti tank in the world and die miserably.

Mixing vehicles and footsloggers is tricky, making your opponent waste some of his/her firepower is a good tactic, not mandatory but quite effective in my experience. I tipycally go with full vehicles, biker characters and KMKs and kommandos in reserve so S4 shooting is basically wasted in the first turns, while footslogging lists nullify the anti tank pretty well.

So do we have to use the rules for Stompas in the new rulebooks index, or can we still use the old Kustom Stompa rules that referenced Codex: Orks?

Anyone run a full Green Tide yet? I'm thinking about this for my league now. After digging up my army I found I have the following for a 2K

Ghaz
2x Weirdboyz
Snikrot

5x 30 Choppa Boyz w BC Nob
1x 30 Shoota Boyz w 3x BS and BC Nob

Nob with Waaaagh banner
Painboy
5x Kommandoz w 2x Burna and BC Nob

2x Dakkajet -6x Supa Shoota

Should carpet the board nicely, jump around and Snikrot and the Kommandoz are there to disrupt artillery/be a speed bump

I really want to like the shokk attack gun, but it is just way too random. it is so tempting to use, but between random strength, random shots, random damage and ork bs...I just know I will always roll 1 shot for S12 which will miss, and 6 shots for S2.

I wish either that it were a fixed 6 shots (which would be my preference), or that it was S 6+D6, so at least you knew you would get S7 minimum. It would also be nice if big meks could take ammo runts. OR at least Roll 3D6, assign 1 to shots, and 2 to strength.

then again if they were too good, an army of them with a load of boyz would be stupid.

Im trying out 5 mek gunz (kustom mega kannons) tomorrow. Any advice on them?

 More Dakka wrote:
Anyone run a full Green Tide yet? I'm thinking about this for my league now.

Spoiler:

After digging up my army I found I have the following for a 2K

Ghaz
2x Weirdboyz
Snikrot

5x 30 Choppa Boyz w BC Nob
1x 30 Shoota Boyz w 3x BS and BC Nob

Nob with Waaaagh banner
Painboy
5x Kommandoz w 2x Burna and BC Nob

2x Dakkajet -6x Supa Shoota

Should carpet the board nicely, jump around and Snikrot and the Kommandoz are there to disrupt artillery/be a speed bump

I'm running something similar with great success so far.
Air Wing Detachment
Dakkajet: 4x Supa Shoota
Dakkajet: 4x Supa Shoota
Dakkajet: 4x Supa Shoota
Batallion Detachment
Ghazghkull Thraka
Weirdboy: 3. Da Jump
Weirdboy: 2. Warpath
29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
29x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa, Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Slugga
Nob w/ Waaagh! Banner: Kustom Shoota
Painboy: Power Klaw
Mek Gunz
Gun: Bubblechukka, 5x Grot Gunner
Gun: Bubblechukka, 5x Grot Gunner
Gun: Bubblechukka, 5x Grot Gunner
1999 Points.

 Ratius wrote:
Im trying out 5 mek gunz (kustom mega kannons) tomorrow. Any advice on them?

Put them nearby one of the objectives. If you have one heavy support slot available you may consider splitting them into two smaller units. The 36'' range is not that good and deploying the KMKs into two units very far from each other helps a lot.

 davou wrote:
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/07/13/wetcoast-gt-2017-recap-lists/


Orks took first at a decently large tournament; using big guns, dakkajets and a bike mek with kff.... but those units suck, so please disregard the results. /s

I like the idea of filling out deatchments with cheap heavy guns, getting to use them to squat backfield as well as buy extra command points is well thought out.

Its also strange that 30 man ork blobs have become some of the most mobile units in the game

Again, full squads of Shoota Boyz in a tournament winning list. But conventional wisdom on here is choppas for more attacks... #indecisive

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Orks don't suck. He is trolling. But the number of units that are decent to great I think are like 7-8

Boyz. Nobz/Mega armor nobz. Ghaz. Weirdboy. Tankbustas. Lootas. Kommandos.

Yeah no, not trolling I am being completely serious. And as I predicted orkz would win a bit in the beginning and as soon as the meta fixes itself Orkz will be bottom tier again. Our only competitive build revolves around Horde spam and IG does that better then us as do Nidz.

As for the tourny davou mentions, i like how he cherry picks the units he likes and forgets to mention the BULK of that army was 90 boyz, Ghaz and Smite spam.

As soon as more people figure out how to kill hordes with better weapons its going to be a slaughter mark my words. Tau are starting to figure it out right now, no longer can they just bring 3 Riptides and a Stormsurge and call GG>

Dude the meta is already anti horde. The current meta is hordes and flyers period. Anti horde is part of every decent list. Stormraven spam is anti horde, guard spam is anti horde, everything that's competitive is by default anti horde. Stop trying to pretend like the meta needs to adjust to orks.
That is flat out Wrong. The meta is adjusting to stormraven spam and layered missions not orks which isn't a concern. Ork horde is competitive and will stay competitive. I'm sorry you are wrong and not psychic orks are decent this edition. Not broken and overpowered but competitive and tournament results continue to show that.

gungo wrote:
Dude the meta is already anti horde. The current meta is hordes and flyers period. Anti horde is part of every decent list. Stormraven spam is anti horde, guard spam is anti horde, everything that's competitive is by default anti horde. Stop trying to pretend like the meta needs to adjust to orks.
That is flat out Wrong. The meta is adjusting to stormraven spam and layered missions not orks which isn't a concern. Ork horde is competitive and will stay competitive.

Ohh I am not denying that. Ork Hordes will be our go to until the new codex gets released and then who knows where we will be. But I guarantee you, you will not be seeing Ork Hordes finishing in the top 10 after a bit.

SemperMortis, maybe you should play a different army instead of bringing everyone down with your negative attitude all the time. You won't be satisfied until Orks are bottom tier again.

 More Dakka wrote:
Anyone run a full Green Tide yet? I'm thinking about this for my league now. After digging up my army I found I have the following for a 2K

Ghaz
2x Weirdboyz
Snikrot

5x 30 Choppa Boyz w BC Nob
1x 30 Shoota Boyz w 3x BS and BC Nob

Nob with Waaaagh banner
Painboy
5x Kommandoz w 2x Burna and BC Nob

2x Dakkajet -6x Supa Shoota

Should carpet the board nicely, jump around and Snikrot and the Kommandoz are there to disrupt artillery/be a speed bump

I'd add a second banner nob so you are guaranteed his buff on all mobs. In addition, maybe cut some boyz to field a third Dakkajet for an additional CP.

On the issue of SemperMortis: Can't we all just ignore him? He adds nothing new to the tactics discussion, he just keeps derailing the thread with his claims about how orks will be bottom tier for all eternity without anything to back that up. He will commit any logical fallacy to still claim to be right, including denying the content of his own posts. There is really no point in answering to any of his posts that do not revolve around tactics.
And for the record: He got flakk for calling orks doomed before he had even read the rules or played a single game, idiotic interpretations of rules and for claiming that anyone who disagreed with him was on GW's payroll.

Breng77 wrote:
I really want to like the shokk attack gun, but it is just way too random. it is so tempting to use, but between random strength, random shots, random damage and ork bs...I just know I will always roll 1 shot for S12 which will miss, and 6 shots for S2.

I wish either that it were a fixed 6 shots (which would be my preference), or that it was S 6+D6, so at least you knew you would get S7 minimum. It would also be nice if big meks could take ammo runts. OR at least Roll 3D6, assign 1 to shots, and 2 to strength.

then again if they were too good, an army of them with a load of boyz would be stupid.

I'm going to test it in my next few games with my shooty orks.
For all the random stuff there are still CP's but I still struggle with the detachments.
Even with 1850 and 2000 points i get no more then 7 CP's - i don't like filling the slots up with cheap units just to get the brigade detachment.

Need to fill up fast attack and i think about buggies or kopta and 1 unit bikes maybe.

The core is:

KFF mek
Mek with shock attack gun
Wyrdboy
2x30 boyz
Grotz
Tankbustas
Flash gits
Lootas
Gorkanaut
Battle wagon
Big guns and mek guns
(Dok)

Problem are the missing heavy support slots when going for the brigade and the points i need to fill the troops slots.
Not sure if the additional 5 CP's are worth the trouble or if I should stick with the battalion + spearhead detachment and invest the points in more dakka.

Fw index FAQ is out. Nothing earth shattering
Squiggoths both varieties do mortal wounds on 2+ instead of 2 like everyone thought.
Meka dread gets a choice of rokkitbombs, mega charga (still no cost), and kff.
Buzzgrob still doesn't explain how he can take a kff or if it's included in his profile.
However good news is
Q: There are no datasheets for Mega-dreads, Battlefortresses or Grot Bomb Launchers – are there datasheets I should use for these models?
A: Datasheets for these models will be published on the Forge World and Warhammer Community websites.

The meka dread is decent so I'm hopeful on megadread... the grot Bomb launchers may be decent depending on price. I'm not hopeful on battlefortress both because the model is no where to be found and because expensive ork vehicles based on poor ork bs haven't been kind this edition.

gungo wrote:
The meka dread is decent so I'm hopeful on megadread... the grot Bomb launchers may be decent depending on price. I'm not hopeful on battlefortress both because the model is no where to be found and because expensive ork vehicles based on poor ork bs haven't been kind this edition.

I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high, but they might randomly give it BS4 like the Meka Dread and.or give it a bunch more weapon options that it never had.

It might also be a good transport for a MANz pseudo-deathstar, but I have a feeling that won't be competitive anyway. (I say pseudo because it wouldn't be unkillable like a real deathstar, but just crazy expensive. I think it might be fun to experiment with MANz plus a Waaagh Banner plus a Painboy, but that is pretty dang costly.)

We can surmise what weapons it will have by what's forgeworld sells. Killkannon arm and saw arm. Sadly this FAQ nerfed the fw killkannon profile of 6 shots to d6 shots so you are correct this dread needs bs4 not bs5 to be decent. The ap-4 dread saw will be decent. It has a mega charga in 6th edition so if it still has that it should be decent even if it's bs5 with double klaws. It also has a supa skorcha in 6th and that's amazing. My hope is same profile as meka dread w mega charga and killsaw, klaw, killkannon, and supa skorcha options even if nerfed to bs5 skorcha and klaw options don't care.