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 Blackie wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Is anyone running regular Nobz? Are they worth it? I'd like at least one unit because I like them and they are fluffy as Mork in a Goff list. However they seem pretty vulnerable without a transport and I'm not sold on Trukks or Battlewagons... maybe 6 guys inside a Gorkanaut? Or does that just make the 'naut an even more of a bullet sponge...

They're a decent unit if you keep them quite cheap. 5-6 dudes with big choppas, maybe with stabbas. Add 1-2 ammo runts as ablative wounds.

I tried 5 big choppa nobz plus ammo runt in a trukk with 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig and they performed quite well as both squads are going to threat the same targets and they can have a good synergy being a shooty and a choppy units. I prefer two units of tankbustas in the same trukk though.

I haven't tried nobz in other combinations since a trukk only for them seems wasted, not to mention a BW. Mixing nobz and tankbustas or other stuff in a BW becomes pricey.

So you're not suggesting klaws outside of Boss Nobs, right?

I'm still in the early stages of building an army but I'm thinking of a core of 2-3 big squads of Boyz and 1-2 big squads of Storm Boyz and some Nobz for seasoning. Do you think the Nobz would survive long while slogging? The Stormboyz and/or a big unit of Boyz "da jumped" to the enemy's face might attract some firepower, am I right?

Might as well build them slowly anyway while waiting for the actual Codex since Orks don't seem to be in a strong position right now as far as I can tell. Hopefully the Codex changes things up a bit.

Never give them klaws, they become too expensive and for a few points more you can field meganobz which have better armor, better shooting and one more wound. Klaws are ok for nobz leading boyz/stormboyz units.

If you run footslogging nobz they can attract all the multi damage fire power in the opponent's list especially if you haven't many vehicles/walkers. In a full footslogging list they would be dead turn 1, giving the opponent the only appropriate target for his anti tank. No way the opponent would waste his high S high AP shots towards boyz/stormboyz if he has more appropriate targets and he can't aim at characters.

They may be viable in mechanized lists with BWs and trukks. If you're planning to run hordes I'd suggest to skip them.

What about putting a small squad of Nobz in a Gorkanaut? Sure I realize the 'naut is an even bigger anti-tank magnet. What else should I bring to attract the attention of anti-tank?

Maybe a trukk with two min units of tankbustas and a biker big mek with KFF to give them the 5+ invuln?

 Blackie wrote:
Maybe a trukk with two min units of tankbustas and a biker big mek with KFF to give them the 5+ invuln?

Well incidentally a unit or two of Tankbustas in Trukks is something I've had in mind so that's covered. However I don't have anything resembling and Ork bike nor a KFF for that matter so that might prove more challenging. There's KFF bitz in the Gorkanaut box so I dunno, might not be too hard to model if I just get a hold of a bike somewhere...

Soo a couple of Trukks with Tankbustas, a Gorkanaut and an ocean of Boyz, think that would work?

Nob squads are a prime example of mellee army specialisation issue. They look good on paper but need a transport. Having a couple transport in a footslogging horde list is not effective vs shooty opponents cause they can concentrate ranged at and kill they transport and than kill the nobz. So, you're getting the most out of this unit when you're allready running a full mech list.

Why do you need to deal with a Landraider? well for starters the Crusader variants are now pretty damn disgusting with dakka. 12 shots from the Assault Cannon and 24 shots from the Hurricane Bolters. They actually put out more dakka then we do with our vehicles :(

Also, do Nobz in boyz units not matter anymore for morale issues? I was so sure they gave some kind of benefit but then when i looked during my games it isn't there. When I am losing 15boyz in a shooting phase having leadership 15 doesn't help. And by turn 3 I wasnt anywhere near my other drastically undermanned Boyz units.

Also, with the Deff Dreadz, I ran a mech list with 12 Kanz, a KFF Big Mek and a Banner Nob. The Deff Dread just sucks. For his price tag and the fact that he has zero shooting worth mentioning he should have either double those attacks or +2-3 attacks AND becoming WS2+. And on the topic of his weapons, I lost the game specifically because I ran into a Captain with a Storm Shield. He ate so many attacks it was ridiculous, in 4 rounds of CC he ate the better part of 4 Kanz swinging at him, a Big Mek Swinging with a KillSaw and the Deff Dread going to town on him. yeah he used command point rerolls and was lucky beyond reasoning but I am still disappointed with the sheer lack of CC prowess on the part of Ork Walkers.

Let's compare.

Deff Dread with all Klaws, 149pts
M6", WS 3+, T7, W8, S10, A6, Ap -3, 3dmg, 3+ save.

SW Venerable Dread Axe & Shield, 145pts
M6", WS 2+, T7, W8, S10, A5, Ap -3, D6dmg, 3++ save, 6+ FNP.

It's really no contest. Deff Dreads need either a big buff or at least a significant point discount. Maybe somewhere in the 110's or 120's it would really start to have more appeal.

That or the SW venerable dread is getting a price hike soon enough.

The dread is only S9, for what that matters, and D3 damage

So Def Dread with all klaws 149

M6, WS 3+. T7, W8, S10, A6, AP -3 3 damage, 3+ save, re-rolls charges

SW ven dread Axe and Shield 145
M6, WS 2+ T7, W8, S9, A5 AP -3, D3 damage 3++ 6+ fnp

So the ven dread is obviously more durable 3++ 6+ fnp is way better.

The Deff dread is better at getting into combat with ere we go.

The ven dread against multi wound T4 or less does an average of 5.78 wounds

The deff dread against multi-wound T4 or less does 10 wounds.

If they fight each other the ven dread likely wins due to the 3++ as the deff dread averages a bit more than 2 wounds per round, and the ven dread averages 4.6.

So really it is a durability issue rather than an offense issue.

3++ saves as always are really good, and better dealt with using tons of attacks instead of high damage attacks.

That said I think a fair I think a nice fix would have been making it 4 attacks base like a dread. That would allow it to have guns and 6 attacks, or 8 attacks with all klaws.

Breng77 wrote:
The dread is only S9, for what that matters, and D3 damage

So Def Dread with all klaws 149

M6, WS 3+. T7, W8, S10, A6, AP -3 3 damage, 3+ save, re-rolls charges

SW ven dread Axe and Shield 145
M6, WS 2+ T7, W8, S9, A5 AP -3, D3 damage 3++ 6+ fnp

So the ven dread is obviously more durable 3++ 6+ fnp is way better.

The Deff dread is better at getting into combat with ere we go.

The ven dread against multi wound T4 or less does an average of 5.78 wounds

The deff dread against multi-wound T4 or less does 10 wounds.

If they fight each other the ven dread likely wins due to the 3++ as the deff dread averages a bit more than 2 wounds per round, and the ven dread averages 4.6.

So really it is a durability issue rather than an offense issue.

3++ saves as always are really good, and better dealt with using tons of attacks instead of high damage attacks.

That said I think a fair I think a nice fix would have been making it 4 attacks base like a dread. That would allow it to have guns and 6 attacks, or 8 attacks with all klaws.

Durability is definitely a huge concern, but the lack of choppiness when it finally gets into CC is the biggest problem. Also, the Deff Dread is marginally better at getting into combat because of Ere we go, the same could be said though about the Venerable because command point reroll or the fact that it has delivery methods.

Against one another the Venerable wins every time. Against CC armies the Venerable is better every time. Against anything that has -AP CC weapons the venerable is better. Pretty much the only place the Deff Dread is better then the Venerable is in the one you mentioned. And even then the trade off for durability isn't worth it. I Have said this multiple times and i'll restate it again. I am fine with my models being less durable and less accurate so long as the trade off is worth it. this thing needs about twice the choppiness for me to want to take it, I only fielded it as part of a mech list to see if it was good. I honestly was hoping it would do a lot better then it did.

Breng77 wrote:
The dread is only S9, for what that matters, and D3 damage

No, it's S10. S6 base and Fenrisian Great Axe gives +4 S and D6 damage. Adjust your calculations accordingly.

I agree though, 3++ is very good and the FNP is a nice bonus to that. 4 base attacks for the Deff sounds reasonable and would make it sufficiently killy to justify the points. Or rather better justify the points.

Nob leaders are ld7 while boyz are ld6.

And yep, ork walkers other than a gorkanaught are still around mediocre and worse. Just too overpriced. WAY better than they used to be in 7-th and can even compete in casual games but definitely not competitive.

 koooaei wrote:
Nob leaders are ld7 while boyz are ld6.

And yep, ork walkers other than a gorkanaught are still around mediocre and worse. Just too overpriced.

I am really hoping that was an oversight because so far my opponents have all been smart enough to focus fire down boyz squads to the point where leadership is so bad they run off the table.

Also I am still not sold on gorkanaught being worth taking either but I agree with your premise. EVERY ork walker would be usable if it were significantly cheaper. Kanz being 15-20pts cheaper would be worth it. Deff Dreadz being 30-40pts cheaper would be worth it. Morkanaugh? I don't even want to guess but probably closer to 40-50.

 Weazel wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
The dread is only S9, for what that matters, and D3 damage

No, it's S10. S6 base and Fenrisian Great Axe gives +4 S and D6 damage. Adjust your calculations accordingly.

I agree though, 3++ is very good and the FNP is a nice bonus to that. 4 base attacks for the Deff sounds reasonable and would make it sufficiently killy to justify the points. Or rather better justify the points.

Ah, I was looking at the wrong weapon. Both those options for wolves seem undercosted (3+ for 15 points, better DCCW for same price as the CCW.) I mean sure you give up all shooting, but I think GW is really under-rating 3++ saves in this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Nob leaders are ld7 while boyz are ld6.

And yep, ork walkers other than a gorkanaught are still around mediocre and worse. Just too overpriced. WAY better than they used to be in 7-th and can even compete in casual games but definitely not competitive.

Yeah the gorkanaut is by far the best of what we have. It could still stand to be a bit cheaper, but it has enough attacks to be damaging against just about everything. Has a good amount of shooting as well. It's largest problem is that it needs other scary mech threats to live long enough to do anything. So unless you are taking battlewagons/trukks full of scary models, or multiple Gorkanauts it is hard to expect him to live long.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
The dread is only S9, for what that matters, and D3 damage

So Def Dread with all klaws 149

M6, WS 3+. T7, W8, S10, A6, AP -3 3 damage, 3+ save, re-rolls charges

SW ven dread Axe and Shield 145
M6, WS 2+ T7, W8, S9, A5 AP -3, D3 damage 3++ 6+ fnp

So the ven dread is obviously more durable 3++ 6+ fnp is way better.

The Deff dread is better at getting into combat with ere we go.

The ven dread against multi wound T4 or less does an average of 5.78 wounds

The deff dread against multi-wound T4 or less does 10 wounds.

If they fight each other the ven dread likely wins due to the 3++ as the deff dread averages a bit more than 2 wounds per round, and the ven dread averages 4.6.

So really it is a durability issue rather than an offense issue.

3++ saves as always are really good, and better dealt with using tons of attacks instead of high damage attacks.

That said I think a fair I think a nice fix would have been making it 4 attacks base like a dread. That would allow it to have guns and 6 attacks, or 8 attacks with all klaws.

Durability is definitely a huge concern, but the lack of choppiness when it finally gets into CC is the biggest problem. Also, the Deff Dread is marginally better at getting into combat because of Ere we go, the same could be said though about the Venerable because command point reroll or the fact that it has delivery methods.

Against one another the Venerable wins every time. Against CC armies the Venerable is better every time. Against anything that has -AP CC weapons the venerable is better. Pretty much the only place the Deff Dread is better then the Venerable is in the one you mentioned. And even then the trade off for durability isn't worth it. I Have said this multiple times and i'll restate it again. I am fine with my models being less durable and less accurate so long as the trade off is worth it. this thing needs about twice the choppiness for me to want to take it, I only fielded it as part of a mech list to see if it was good. I honestly was hoping it would do a lot better then it did.

The biggest difference in what you see is the durability though. Like I said starting at 4 base attacks would help, but it would still be worse against things with -AP weapons in CC weapons, or CC armies, because dead things don't attack. As for getting there ere-we go is a big deal. Although with chapter tactics coming this comparison won't even be close.

The trick is to always keep a warboss nearby or using CP to auto-pass ld.

It's quite easy to loose an isolated 30-strong squad to morale - it needs to loose 13 models to start testing ld. 19 casualties will guarantee that the squad is gona get wiped due to ld.

So, bosses are essential. It's a good idea to have multiples of them. Luckilly, they are pretty good for the points either with big choppas or power klaws - i prefer power klaws, to be honest. I'm not sure if footslogging bosses are gona be that good though. Biker bosses have proven to be decent. My favorite loadout is a pk and k-skorcha. Skorcha is not mandatory but it has it's uses on such a mobile platform. And it brings a boss to 130 pts instead of 111. I've only got one biker boss and he's modelled with a k-skorcha, so i thought - why not. Haven't played games with more than 1250 pts yet, so 1 was almost enough. Got an aobr boss either but he's been cosplaying Ghaz until i either kitbash him a mighty piece of armor and a pair of horns or just actually get Ghazzy.

What if the dreads could choose to triple their attacks at their base str like naughts? I think it's fluffy and we'd still be wounding MEQ on 3s with ap-2

Fan dread.

 Weazel wrote:
Let's compare.

Deff Dread with all Klaws, 149pts
M6", WS 3+, T7, W8, S10, A6, Ap -3, 3dmg, 3+ save.

SW Venerable Dread Axe & Shield, 145pts
M6", WS 2+, T7, W8, S10, A5, Ap -3, D6dmg, 3++ save, 6+ FNP.

It's really no contest. Deff Dreads need either a big buff or at least a significant point discount. Maybe somewhere in the 110's or 120's it would really start to have more appeal.

That or the SW venerable dread is getting a price hike soon enough.

The Deff is half-decent but too expensive by 20-30 points. It also illustrates why the green tide lists are so good. 30 slugga Boyz will do between 9-10 wounds of damage to a venerable dread per round of fighting. Boyz really are our best option against anything not airborne or T8.

Haveing just run a list with 20 Big chopa nobs (all with kombi-skorchas!) I can tell you the transport is needed, and kill-saws do far better for what power klaws promise. (waagh banner helping)
All very expensive, but powerful... :/

Ok, this might sound like a weird question, but I got asked by the sister of my mate (he plays orks) what a good addition to his army would be.

What is a good box/character now that she could pick up that would actually be fielded and wouldn't be bad to have multiples of (don't know what his whole collection is sadly)? Price is between €20-40.

A weirdboy is a safe choice these days, probably not something he would have had many of from previous editions.

more boys

A waaagh banner nob is useful in every list.

Nobz on foot take an ammo runt for every Nob. When they are shooting weapons with no AP, take it on Nobz. When they are shooting anything else, take it on KFF ammo runtz. The squad works in footslogging armies because of the runtz.

LiMunPai wrote:
Nobz on foot take an ammo runt for every Nob. When they are shooting weapons with no AP, take it on Nobz. When they are shooting anything else, take it on KFF ammo runtz. The squad works in footslogging armies because of the runtz.

Have you (or anyone else) tried 15 nobs and 15 runts? would that be more effective than 29 boyz and 1 nob? The boyz are much cheaper.

What does everyone think of the Ork flyers in the new edition?

I'll be picking up another Eldar flyer since they're so food these days, and figured for an extra bit of cash I may as well pick up the Stormcloud game with the Ork flyer in as well. I understand they may not be the best models to use competitively, but I love the models and would definitely want to use them at some point in a semi-competitive pick up game. Already got a Dakkajet, but what should I build my new one as? To me the two Bommer variants look the best, with maybe the Blitza edging out the Burna since we have so much anti-infantry and burny goodness in the army already.

 The Shadow wrote:
What does everyone think of the Ork flyers in the new edition?

I'll be picking up another Eldar flyer since they're so food these days, and figured for an extra bit of cash I may as well pick up the Stormcloud game with the Ork flyer in as well. I understand they may not be the best models to use competitively, but I love the models and would definitely want to use them at some point in a semi-competitive pick up game. Already got a Dakkajet, but what should I build my new one as? To me the two Bommer variants look the best, with maybe the Blitza edging out the Burna since we have so much anti-infantry and burny goodness in the army already.

My honest opinion? Save your money. The Dakkajet is the only "Decent" variant right now and even that isn't particularly good. If you are really hell bent on getting one though I would probably go with the Blitza or another Dakkajet over the Burna or the Wazbom variant.

I have a couple planes, I am never pleased by their performance. I think the dakkajet isn't terrible in the right list. I don't think the burna bomma is awful in a vehicle or walker list. Burna bomma explodes on a 4+, instead of 6. If you can get it to explode near enemies it's 3 mortal wounds to every unit in six inches. I wouldn't want it to blow up near my characters, the enemy wouldn't either.

Edit; It has potential, if it can shoot anything before it dies then blows up on more then just light infantry it might just pay itself off. The explosion is worth a CP reroll if you have the right enemies nearby.

I have yet to have a lot of games of 8th yet, but I'll put out my defence of Killa kans. 6 kans with a nob banner and kff support nearby is actualy realy solid, can do some real damage.

 Rismonite wrote:
I have a couple planes, I am never pleased by their performance. I think the dakkajet isn't terrible in the right list. I don't think the burna bomma is awful in a vehicle or walker list. Burna bomma explodes on a 4+, instead of 6. If you can get it to explode near enemies it's 3 mortal wounds to every unit in six inches. I wouldn't want it to blow up near my characters, the enemy wouldn't either.

Edit; It has potential, if it can shoot anything before it dies then blows up on more then just light infantry it might just pay itself off. The explosion is worth a CP reroll if you have the right enemies nearby.

So sad that it would do more damage blowing up then shooting all its weapons

The problem with a burna bomber is that the enemy can concentrate firepower when it's near you and ignore it when it's near him. The damage output is quite forgetable. It's rare to see squads larger than 5.

Is there anything that says we can't pick a unit that is in an ongoing assault to drop the burna bomb on?

Or a character? Not that you would.