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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Soo....wtf are dakkajets suppose to aim at?

I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.

Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after

Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find

are you trying to find a gorkanaut in a store? or for a certain price? A quick look on both amazon and ebay showed multiples available at near or below retail price.

 grendel083 wrote:
Anyone got some handy hints for speeding up dice rolling in combat?

Bring a calculator and notepad? Abacus?
It's difficult for an Ork to count, and last night I was rolling 115 attacks against a single mauler fiend (3 wounds, whoop whoop )

Sorry on the dice problems there.
On my opponents turn, I group my dice by how many attacks each model gets in the next assault. If 15 boys are in, I grab 15 stacks of dice, etc.
Of course, removing misses (rather than picking up hits) helps too. I often will pass my wound dice to my opponent for them to roll saves on. It really does save us from counting things until you are actually dealing damage.

 grendel083 wrote:
Anyone got some handy hints for speeding up dice rolling in combat?

Bring a calculator and notepad? Abacus?
It's difficult for an Ork to count, and last night I was rolling 115 attacks against a single mauler fiend (3 wounds, whoop whoop )

Bring a special group of dice for the entire mob, then remove 4 each time an ork dies, then remove 20 when you lose the extra bonus.

Or

Bring a set of 29 dice (assuming nob) for mob rolling, and remove one for each loss, then roll once for each attack.

Yeah,but the whole mob won't always get to swing. You do still need to count the models in range.

 grendel083 wrote:
Anyone got some handy hints for speeding up dice rolling in combat?

Bring a calculator and notepad? Abacus?
It's difficult for an Ork to count, and last night I was rolling 115 attacks against a single mauler fiend (3 wounds, whoop whoop )

What i do is figure out how many attacks each model attacking has and just grab that many of dice as i count. As in, slugga/choppa boyz with 22 models get 4 attacks and 16 can actually attack, so i grab 16 sets of 4 dice.
I dont really have to math it at that point. And it saves me for when i get a lot more attacks than i can roll dice, i just remember "This is 10 boyz i still got 6 left to roll for"

Hey guys. I've only been playing since 8th was dropped, and inherited a small (very small) ork army from a friend. With the blessings of my friends, I've been proxying a lot of stuff until I can find what works and dedicate some money to it.

I've skipped about 50+pages of this thread as I didn't want to be here until Christmas, so I apologize if this was mentioned before.

The most effective thing I found so far was kitting 10 Nobz with kombi scorchas and stabbas, and throwing them in a trukk with a Warboss (also scorcha) and Waaagh banner. Expensive as hell, but averaging 40ish auto hits a turn plus a few from the hail mary shoota shots. That's been enough to kill Chimeras in a single turn, or barbecue an entire squads of Guard or Termagaunts. Once the Truckk takes a few hits, they bail and go stab something.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Soo....wtf are dakkajets suppose to aim at?

I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.

Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after

Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find

I have ran three dakkajet with a walker list. They are for shooting single wound models IMO. One notable game I deleted a Dev squad w/Missile Launchers in cover turn one then another one on turn two, then flew a remaining jet off the table for 2 victory points. These two squads were rerolling misses and would have devastated my walkers as they advanced. The dakkajets added meaningful shooting vs. 1W marines and then they soaked up shooting that would have otherwise dusted my kanz off the board (though I got shot off the table in that game before it was over anyways, that was more of series of idiot mistakes on my part in strategy, and list building. One thing is true, they do get removed from the board like anyother ork model. Coordinate putting them into dangerous enemy fire the same turn as everything else if you can. The amount of rerolls this edition make the hard to hit modifier at least cause some unrerollable misses (3's become the new for marines, as an example)

A thought about list building from a fellow ork with a mekmob; This edition, I think there are two types of Mek Mobz, one with just Kanz, Deff Dreadz, and maybe planes the other with several Gork/Morkanaugts . I feel that, if you field a T5-T7 model, it should have the same wound profile as whatever else you are fielding. I say this, because with the Kanz and Deff Dreadz, when Las was fired at them, it helped to be able to take large damage shots on Kanz with one or two wounds left, and smaller damage shots on kanz with more wounds. In this way, you could cause some inefficiency in opponent shooting (overkill). If you present a target, like a Gorkanaught or Battlewagon, the opponent's dice gains efficiency because his Las Cannonz can fire on one target with little concern about overkill. Whereas, when forced to fire at Kanz, you can cause large overkill on individual kanz by intelligent allocation of wounds. (Edit, this is not wound shenanigans. When presented with 3 successful Lascannon wounds 6, 1, 2, and you take the 1 and 2 first, then take the 6, you cause one kan to be overkilled. Whereas, if you took the 6 first a second kan in the squad would have to take the 1 and 2. I hope this prevented confusion).

This is, unless my opponent and I were allocating things incorrectly, I'm still nailing down the rules and faq's this Ed.

On measuring dice, I use the chessex boxes as measuring cups, with 9/18/27/36 dice depending on how many layers. Other than that I try to pre-stage banks of dice during the opponents turn...ie if I know a 22 strong blob of shootas will shoot first, I collect 44 dice.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Soo....wtf are dakkajets suppose to aim at?

I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.

Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after

Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find

Dakkajets are the exact opposite of "Cheap" they are in fact over priced dramatically. They should be about 50pts cheaper when fully equipped, 18 S6 shots averages 9 hits. Against T4 that is 6 wounds. Against Guard thats 5 dead models, or put another way. You just used a 150pt unit to kill 15-20pts of guardsmen. Even if you catch a SM Tac squad in the open that is only going to net you about 3 Dead Marines for less then 50pts.

Dakkajets as mentioned somewhere else are fit perfectly between two realms and are good at neither of them. They aren't good at killing high value models with good armor, and they aren't good at removing low value hordes. ironically, a SM Tactical squad has about the same chance of killing a Dakkajet as the dakkajet does of killing the tactical squad, let that sink in. (if armed with a Lascannon or Missile Launcher).

As far as Kommandos/Snikrot are concerned. They suffer the same problem as regular boyz but are 50% more expensive for it. They aren't durable enough. If you put a 10-20man Kommando unit behind enemy lines and it fails its charge then you just lost 90-180pts MINIMUM, and if you are investing points into Snikrot you are probably taking a couple units of that size which means you have invested at the least 200pts into a throw away distraction unit that at that points level is not hard to kill and too expensive for what little it can do.

Kommanos/Stormboyz should be priced at 7pts per model. Burnas should be 9ppm and Tankbustas around 11-12. Lootas should be 10 at the ABSOLUTE MOST!.

basically all of our infantry units are over priced, and if they specialize in something they are probably MASSIVELY over priced. The reason that Stormboyz/Kommandos see game time is because they are the units that have the closest price to regular boyz while also gaining some kind of extra utility.

I'd have to agree.

Burnas/Tankbustas are just ridiculously expensive. 3x the cost of a boy, dies exactly as easy, not much deadlier. Requires a battlewagon + KFF to even attempt to use them, 3-4 deffdreads would do much more work than they would (so far thats the only nonboyz thing im impressed with, multiple deffdreads behind a KFF is sickening). Kanz are doing work too, ironically, but i kinda wanna swap off of rokkits. Not sure what other weapon to use though since they lack the Heavy ignoring rule so i really dont like the idea of grotzookas atm
I've had mild success with Meganobz, but the issue is its too easy to pop our transports so they get left stranded alot. IF they actually get combat, they butcher things. Still think footnobz are horribly overcosted though.

The dakkajet felt cheap. But as you point out with the math its not cheap at all.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I'd have to agree.

Burnas/Tankbustas are just ridiculously expensive. 3x the cost of a boy, dies exactly as easy, not much deadlier. Requires a battlewagon + KFF to even attempt to use them, 3-4 deffdreads would do much more work than they would (so far thats the only nonboyz thing im impressed with, multiple deffdreads behind a KFF is sickening). Kanz are doing work too, ironically, but i kinda wanna swap off of rokkits. Not sure what other weapon to use though since they lack the Heavy ignoring rule so i really dont like the idea of grotzookas atm
I've had mild success with Meganobz, but the issue is its too easy to pop our transports so they get left stranded alot. IF they actually get combat, they butcher things. Still think footnobz are horribly overcosted though.

The dakkajet felt cheap. But as you point out with the math its not cheap at all.

If you ever wonder if something we have is over priced/under costed just compare it to an Imperial Equivalent.

So that Dakkajet is 150pts for 18 S6 shots, the Stormraven has 2 S8 -3AP Damage 3 Missile Launchers, 12 S6 -1 Damage 1 shots, 6 S5 -1 Damage 1 shots and 12-24 S4 shots for 274pts, it has better armor, higher toughness, higher wounds and is a transport. So we on average hit with 9 shots at S6. This thing hits on average with 1 S8 Shot, 8 S6 shots, 4 S5 shots and 8-16 S4 shots a turn.

So which would you rather have, 1 Stormraver or about 2 Dakkajets?

LOL just be careful using that kind of logic with imperial players, they don't like it when you point out how crap your army is compared to theirs.

Literally been that way since the beginning.

Space Marine posterchild perks n all.....

Removing Twinlink as a rule then giving SM an easy reroll access was kinda BS on its own. Making their PF's cost HALF what my PK's cost was even more BS. Making it where an army that depends on cover cant get cover turned it into a Great Lake amount of BS.
/rant off

Still have fun in a casual setting atleast which is about all i ever play anyway. GW cannot balance for tournament play to save their life.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Soo....wtf are dakkajets suppose to aim at?

I ran 2 of them today against some chaos marines. They either didnt have the rate of fire/ap to eat through high armor saves, the strength to take out vehicles, or the hitrate to take out numbers.

Theyre stupid cheap, but this is the first time i legitimately have no idea what it should be going after

Im already running 3 dreads and 6 kanz lol. I need to find a dang gorkanaut though...so hard to find

Dakkajets are the exact opposite of "Cheap" they are in fact over priced dramatically. They should be about 50pts cheaper when fully equipped, 18 S6 shots averages 9 hits. Against T4 that is 6 wounds. Against Guard thats 5 dead models, or put another way. You just used a 150pt unit to kill 15-20pts of guardsmen. Even if you catch a SM Tac squad in the open that is only going to net you about 3 Dead Marines for less then 50pts.

Dakkajets as mentioned somewhere else are fit perfectly between two realms and are good at neither of them. They aren't good at killing high value models with good armor, and they aren't good at removing low value hordes. ironically, a SM Tactical squad has about the same chance of killing a Dakkajet as the dakkajet does of killing the tactical squad, let that sink in. (if armed with a Lascannon or Missile Launcher).

As far as Kommandos/Snikrot are concerned. They suffer the same problem as regular boyz but are 50% more expensive for it. They aren't durable enough. If you put a 10-20man Kommando unit behind enemy lines and it fails its charge then you just lost 90-180pts MINIMUM, and if you are investing points into Snikrot you are probably taking a couple units of that size which means you have invested at the least 200pts into a throw away distraction unit that at that points level is not hard to kill and too expensive for what little it can do.

Kommanos/Stormboyz should be priced at 7pts per model. Burnas should be 9ppm and Tankbustas around 11-12. Lootas should be 10 at the ABSOLUTE MOST!.

basically all of our infantry units are over priced, and if they specialize in something they are probably MASSIVELY over priced. The reason that Stormboyz/Kommandos see game time is because they are the units that have the closest price to regular boyz while also gaining some kind of extra utility.

I feel like Kommandos have an issue of having abilities that are somewhat cross purposes. They get bonus to cover saves but if they deploy into cover they won't be able to charge, which is really the only way they can deal damage because they have crap for shooting. In general I think that they should have given points to weapons and made base models cheaper similar to Tank bustas, Then most weapons need a shift down in points.

Personally I'd like to see all base Boy type models to be 4 ppm, then have Sluggas, shootas, and choppas at 1 point each. So shoota boyz would be 5 ppm. Make burnas/big shootas 4 or 5 points, rokkits ~7 points, Then make commandos/tankbustas 5 or 6 points to account for extra special abilities.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Literally been that way since the beginning.

Space Marine posterchild perks n all.....

Removing Twinlink as a rule then giving SM an easy reroll access was kinda BS on its own. Making their PF's cost HALF what my PK's cost was even more BS. Making it where an army that depends on cover cant get cover turned it into a Great Lake amount of BS.
/rant off

Still have fun in a casual setting atleast which is about all i ever play anyway. GW cannot balance for tournament play to save their life.

Yeah it was rather sneaky the way they pulled that little trick off. "Twin Linked isn't a thing anymore guys! instead those weapons get 2x the shots, thats fair right? (Ork Dakkagun goes from 1.66 hits a turn to 2. SM TL Heavy Bolter goes from 2.66 hits a turn to 4) Ohh and We are going to give SMs aura buffs that let them reroll everything." I am still trying to figure out how the Assault Cannon went up that drastically, its now a powerhouse weapon. Twin Assan gets 12 shots? Jesus.


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Breng77 wrote:


I feel like Kommandos have an issue of having abilities that are somewhat cross purposes. They get bonus to cover saves but if they deploy into cover they won't be able to charge, which is really the only way they can deal damage because they have crap for shooting. In general I think that they should have given points to weapons and made base models cheaper similar to Tank bustas, Then most weapons need a shift down in points.

Personally I'd like to see all base Boy type models to be 4 ppm, then have Sluggas, shootas, and choppas at 1 point each. So shoota boyz would be 5 ppm. Make burnas/big shootas 4 or 5 points, rokkits ~7 points, Then make commandos/tankbustas 5 or 6 points to account for extra special abilities.

GW has been moving orkz into the Realm of Jack of all trades and moving space Marines out of it for awhile now. The thing that really bugs me about this is that the excuse is always that 2nd attack we have in our base profile. For some reason that justifies our base models being so expensive, and justifies our CC weapons being so expensive and justifies our limited useful ranged weapons being so expensive.

Kommandos should IGNORE terrain OR get a 5+ save normal that becomes a 3+ when in cover, then I might actually put them in cover for a change.

How would you even get cover with them though unless theyre a minimal squad?
After all the ENTIRE FREAKIN UNIT has to be in cover to get it now and being behind a wall doesnt count anymore.

Terrain rules are the biggest flop this edition imo. They make no sense. Even parts of the model that didnt count as LOS before do now, so my MABoss with a huge crucified space marine bosspole is actually a massive negative to me since now that stupid pole counts for some reason.

The only cheap units, or maybe with an appropriate cost, we have are boyz, warbosses and weirdboyz. Everything else is overpriced.

The biker big mek we love so much (I always include him too) is 101 points for a 5++ invuln and a couple of S5 hits on average.

Meganobz should reach combat quite easily. Problem is they have a few attacks for their cost and S10 hits wound on 3s anything T6+ which are the appropriate targets for pks. So many misses and failed to wound rolls. And now vehicles don't even have 4 HP and the chance to be instant killed, that's why meganobz have become mediocre.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Anyone got some handy hints for speeding up dice rolling in combat?

Bring a calculator and notepad? Abacus?
It's difficult for an Ork to count, and last night I was rolling 115 attacks against a single mauler fiend (3 wounds, whoop whoop )

What i do is figure out how many attacks each model attacking has and just grab that many of dice as i count. As in, slugga/choppa boyz with 22 models get 4 attacks and 16 can actually attack, so i grab 16 sets of 4 dice.
I dont really have to math it at that point. And it saves me for when i get a lot more attacks than i can roll dice, i just remember "This is 10 boyz i still got 6 left to roll for"

Yeah, the trick is pretty much keeping math out of it.

You won't get around counting the models, the best shortcut is to have your opponent count the models while already getting the dice ready - even if he is BS'ing you out of a model or two, it won't matter that much for the whole game. The difference between 115 attacks and 109 attacks is negligible.
If you want to be more precise, keep track of how many models each mob has left at all times (pen and paper, d30, or memory exercise), and simply count the model which are out of range.

Once you have a number of boyz, I grab packages of 4 dice until I have one dice for every boy, and then roll hit, remove fails, roll wound, remove fails. Repeat for the number of attacks. If you have enough dice (and large enough hands ) pick two dice per ork when you are shooting shootas or were buffed to four attacks. Do the boss afterwards - or first if he has a chance of taking out the target and

The two important things in this method are:
a) Count your dice only once. If you have 11 boyz with 3 attacks don't do 20 and 13 dice rolls, do three times 11 dice
b) Don't count off every single dice. Add them in fours or fives (I've seen both work for different people) until you exceed the number of dice you need, remove the excess dice. This takes some practice, but will speed up counting dice a lot. If you keep them in fours or fives you can even salvage miscounts pretty quickly.

So in your case, you would have taken five times five dice and removed two from the last from the last package for your 23 boyz. Then you'd roll your first 23 hits, remove all 1 and 2, roll all the remaining dice. Pick up all dice and roll the next 23 attacks until you've rolled all attacks. Then roll for your nob boss and you're done.

 Blackie wrote:
The only cheap units, or maybe with an appropriate cost, we have are boyz, warbosses and weirdboyz. Everything else is overpriced.

The biker big mek we love so much (I always include him too) is 101 points for a 5++ invuln and a couple of S5 hits on average.

Meganobz should reach combat quite easily. Problem is they have a few attacks for their cost and S10 hits wound on 3s anything T6+ which are the appropriate targets for pks. So many misses and failed to wound rolls. And now vehicles don't even have 4 HP and the chance to be instant killed, that's why meganobz have become mediocre.

Comparing Conscripts to Boyz...Yea nope. Boyz need to be at least 1pt cheaper.

what really was noticeable right off the bat was the massive increase in price for weapons. 12pts for a stupid Rokkit is just ridiculous. 28 for a twin rokkit is even more so. 6pts for a Big shoota is crap but not terrible, but realistically thats 6pts for a single S5 hit a turn....Realistically it should be 2-3pts. Kustom Shoota, this is so cool, i want to use these! But 4pts is literally 1pt per S4 shot, that is ridiculous on a BS5+ model. Space Marines can take Storm Bolters for 2pts. That means a BS3+ model is paying 2pts less for a very similar gun figure that crap out.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
How would you even get cover with them though unless theyre a minimal squad?
After all the ENTIRE FREAKIN UNIT has to be in cover to get it now and being behind a wall doesnt count anymore.

Terrain rules are the biggest flop this edition imo. They make no sense. Even parts of the model that didnt count as LOS before do now, so my MABoss with a huge crucified space marine bosspole is actually a massive negative to me since now that stupid pole counts for some reason.

On the other hand, my Waaagh! Banner Nob can shoot his kustom shoota over LOS blocking ruins now, and kill marines right on the other side of the wall...

The terrain rules really blow for anything but stationary 5 man squads - orks don't have those. Plus you still have TLOS involved, which has always been are reason arguments during games.

I still feel like cover should just be given by default except when every shooting model can trace a line to every target model without drawing a line through terrain or an enemy unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Comparing Conscripts to Boyz...Yea nope. Boyz need to be at least 1pt cheaper.

When not fighting conscript, boyz do feel properly costed though. So it's conscripts that are out of line, not boyz.

what really was noticeable right off the bat was the massive increase in price for weapons. 12pts for a stupid Rokkit is just ridiculous. 28 for a twin rokkit is even more so. 6pts for a Big shoota is crap but not terrible, but realistically thats 6pts for a single S5 hit a turn....Realistically it should be 2-3pts. Kustom Shoota, this is so cool, i want to use these! But 4pts is literally 1pt per S4 shot, that is ridiculous on a BS5+ model. Space Marines can take Storm Bolters for 2pts. That means a BS3+ model is paying 2pts less for a very similar gun figure that crap out.

What's really ridiculous is that most of those weapons were hardly used in the old codex even though they were cheaper.
The play-testers explained that points were only balanced internally in the codex (so burnaz against shootas, rokkits and deff gunz), not against other codices. Whoever though that this was a good idea needs to be strung up right next to however wrote the last eldar codex.

probably Matt Ward thought the idea up.
Given how much he hates greenskins. little git.....

What's really ridiculous is that most of those weapons were hardly used in the old codex even though they were cheaper.
The play-testers explained that points were only balanced internally in the codex (so burnaz against shootas, rokkits and deff gunz), not against other codices. Whoever though that this was a good idea needs to be strung up right next to however wrote the last eldar codex.

are you kidding me? did they really say that? I seriously need a link because that is without a doubt the stupidest thing I HAVE EVER HEARD.

Thats fething great for ork vs ork games but against anything else its ridiculous, I really want to use stronger language in this situation.

So they justify Twin Rokkitz at 28pts because against Shootas its about right? My head hurts, im done for now.

Might be a little controversial but I think most Ork weapons aren't terribly overpriced on their own.
Kustom Shoota v Storm Bolter looks bad but it's assault 4 compared to rapid 2, so there is 'some' extra utility there... Minimal, I grant you.
However, GW clearly doesn't cost to the BS or durability of the bearer. My Dark Angels successors would LOVE a squad of S8 AP-2 D3 assault weapons for 12p a pop. They probably look at SM MLs at 25 and 12 for a Rokkit seems Ok.
BS 5+ and Sv 6+ is what makes our Orky Gunz so lame on DPP. IF they actually looked at it from that angle then broad point reductions would be only fair. Not convinced they do or will though... But we can hope...

I will eat my hat if they don't drop PKs a fair bit.

Boyz v Conscripts, i dunno if that's worth comparing atm. I think Conscripts are underpriced and will probably go up or get worse.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, but I do agree that paying more than double for a double weapon makes zero sense in any context.
£1.50 each! Or 3 for a fiver!!! Come grab a bulk buy bargain!!

SemperMortis wrote:

What's really ridiculous is that most of those weapons were hardly used in the old codex even though they were cheaper.
The play-testers explained that points were only balanced internally in the codex (so burnaz against shootas, rokkits and deff gunz), not against other codices. Whoever though that this was a good idea needs to be strung up right next to however wrote the last eldar codex.

are you kidding me? did they really say that? I seriously need a link because that is without a doubt the stupidest thing I HAVE EVER HEARD.

Thats fething great for ork vs ork games but against anything else its ridiculous, I really want to use stronger language in this situation.

So they justify Twin Rokkitz at 28pts because against Shootas its about right? My head hurts, im done for now.

Of course it's the stupidest thing you have ever heard, all you do is compare Orks to Imperials.

Quantity is a quality all it's own. Among other concepts, it is another reason comparing Orkz to non horde races has other factors to consoder beyond mathhammer in the vacuum. Marines shoot and do more damage then us, we shoot and do less damage, there are more of us standing there and every Imperial with a gun removed is much more valueable then any Ork with any weapon in most instances except maybe CC.

>>there are still more ork bodies there, a quality overlooked reguarly<< >>quantity is a quality all it's own<< >>nobody seems to care about this<<

This concept is at it's core why Orkz have to saturate(spam) models with similar toughness profiles to survive. We take the same model and spread it out across our list, and use our limited offense to work on the offense our opponent has brought that is effective against our spam. There, a reason for our shooting to be worse, we don't have to shoot their whole army to win, just the part that is going to delete my t4 models the fastest, or maybe my walkers if I brought that.. In a cleaner tactics thread I feel our purpose should not really sound like a whine, proposed changes, or everyone's endless need to tell one another why they are wrong, but more about finding out how to use what is in our book. Discussing our weaknesses, learning to use our strengths, and understanding how to deal with string units in other books with the units we have, not the units we want. Less GAK more TAC.

 Rismonite wrote:
Quantity is a quality all it's own. Among other concepts, it is another reason comparing Orkz to non horde races has other factors to consoder beyond mathhammer in the vacuum. Marines shoot and do more damage then us, we shoot and do less damage, there are more of us standing there and every Imperial with a gun removed is much more valueable then any Ork with any weapon in most instances except maybe CC.

>>there are still more ork bodies there, a quality overlooked reguarly<< >>quantity is a quality all it's own<< >>nobody seems to care about this<<

This concept is at it's core why Orkz have to saturate(spam) models with similar toughness profiles to survive. We take the same model and spread it out across our list, and use our limited offense to work on the offense our opponent has brought that is effective against our spam. There, a reason for our shooting to be worse, we don't have to shoot their whole army to win, just the part that is going to delete my t4 models the fastest, or maybe my walkers if I brought that.. In a cleaner tactics thread I feel our purpose should not really sound like a whine, proposed changes, or everyone's endless need to tell one another why they are wrong, but more about finding out how to use what is in our book. Discussing our weaknesses, learning to use our strengths, and understanding how to deal with string units in other books with the units we have, not the units we want. Less GAK more TAC.

Well lets take a look at that. In our index we have 3 infantry units worth taking. Boyz, Stormboyz and Kommandos, of which Kommandos are a stretch. The only effective tactic we have at the moment is, get in close and chop them to pieces as quickly as possible to minimize damage to shooting. In your scenario you are saying we should focus on tactics to delete the enemies models that are good against T4 because that is our money maker. The average lists I play here are mostly Tau or Ultrasmurf Gunlines and the occasional Chaos army which feels like watered down imperials. my Smurf opponents always take Girlyman and a couple of razorbacks, 1-3 Predators and a bunch of primaris plasma Marines and scouts/tacticals to serve as a speed bump. So Clearly in a girlyman gunline against a horde of orkz the most dangerous units that need to die are the asscan Razorbacks. So what shooting units would you recommend that are either ranged enough or fast enough to kill a razorback turn 1. Lootas? Statistically 3 Lootas will inflict 1 damage a turn against a Razorback which has 10 wounds I believe, so we need 30 lootas to be statistically likely of killing a single Razorback turn 1. So for the low low price of 510pts we can delete 1 enemy razorback a turn. Tank Bustas? 8 Tankbustas will statistically get you 4 Hits, 3 wounds and 6 damage total on average So you need 16 tankbustas or about 10 with 2 Squigs to kill a Razorback, of course you cant let Tankbustas be on the field by themselves so you need to also buy a trukk, So for 275pts you can statistically get in range and kill a single Razorback. Keep in mind Razorbacks are only 100pts each....102 if he is smart enough to get the stormbolter on top. Of course if he gets first turn his Lascannons will likely target your 1-2 Trukkz filled with expensive short ranged troops and blow them up.

I could keep going but it won't change the point I am making. Orkz at the moment, and for the first time in a LONG time, don't have tactics. we have no flexibility in our list building because we have only a handful of units that are even worth taking. I agree with your premise about shooting their shooty stuff and it is a good tactic, but it won't work this edition because our gunz are so crap and overpriced that you are ceding them the game by bringing 90% of our shooting units. Right now the only way to win is to bring lots of boyz and stormboyz and hit them hard and fast. The only "Tactics" we really have are tricks to get us up the field faster or to have units like Kommandos and Koptas deep strike to distract the enemy long enough to get boyz closer. Personally my favorite "Tactic" is to hold onto 1-2 Kommando units and use them Turn 3 to grab objectives.

Regardless, until we get our codex there isn't a whole lot of strategy that can go into our game playing beyond ways to get into CC with boyz quickly.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Quantity is a quality all it's own. Among other concepts, it is another reason comparing Orkz to non horde races has other factors to consoder beyond mathhammer in the vacuum. Marines shoot and do more damage then us, we shoot and do less damage, there are more of us standing there and every Imperial with a gun removed is much more valueable then any Ork with any weapon in most instances except maybe CC.

>>there are still more ork bodies there, a quality overlooked reguarly<< >>quantity is a quality all it's own<< >>nobody seems to care about this<<

This concept is at it's core why Orkz have to saturate(spam) models with similar toughness profiles to survive. We take the same model and spread it out across our list, and use our limited offense to work on the offense our opponent has brought that is effective against our spam. There, a reason for our shooting to be worse, we don't have to shoot their whole army to win, just the part that is going to delete my t4 models the fastest, or maybe my walkers if I brought that.. In a cleaner tactics thread I feel our purpose should not really sound like a whine, proposed changes, or everyone's endless need to tell one another why they are wrong, but more about finding out how to use what is in our book. Discussing our weaknesses, learning to use our strengths, and understanding how to deal with string units in other books with the units we have, not the units we want. Less GAK more TAC.

Well lets take a look at that. In our index we have 3 infantry units worth taking. Boyz, Stormboyz and Kommandos, of which Kommandos are a stretch. The only effective tactic we have at the moment is, get in close and chop them to pieces as quickly as possible to minimize damage to shooting. In your scenario you are saying we should focus on tactics to delete the enemies models that are good against T4 because that is our money maker. The average lists I play here are mostly Tau or Ultrasmurf Gunlines and the occasional Chaos army which feels like watered down imperials. my Smurf opponents always take Girlyman and a couple of razorbacks, 1-3 Predators and a bunch of primaris plasma Marines and scouts/tacticals to serve as a speed bump. So Clearly in a girlyman gunline against a horde of orkz the most dangerous units that need to die are the asscan Razorbacks. So what shooting units would you recommend that are either ranged enough or fast enough to kill a razorback turn 1. Lootas? Statistically 3 Lootas will inflict 1 damage a turn against a Razorback which has 10 wounds I believe, so we need 30 lootas to be statistically likely of killing a single Razorback turn 1. So for the low low price of 510pts we can delete 1 enemy razorback a turn. Tank Bustas? 8 Tankbustas will statistically get you 4 Hits, 3 wounds and 6 damage total on average So you need 16 tankbustas or about 10 with 2 Squigs to kill a Razorback, of course you cant let Tankbustas be on the field by themselves so you need to also buy a trukk, So for 275pts you can statistically get in range and kill a single Razorback. Keep in mind Razorbacks are only 100pts each....102 if he is smart enough to get the stormbolter on top. Of course if he gets first turn his Lascannons will likely target your 1-2 Trukkz filled with expensive short ranged troops and blow them up.

I could keep going but it won't change the point I am making. Orkz at the moment, and for the first time in a LONG time, don't have tactics. we have no flexibility in our list building because we have only a handful of units that are even worth taking. I agree with your premise about shooting their shooty stuff and it is a good tactic, but it won't work this edition because our gunz are so crap and overpriced that you are ceding them the game by bringing 90% of our shooting units. Right now the only way to win is to bring lots of boyz and stormboyz and hit them hard and fast. The only "Tactics" we really have are tricks to get us up the field faster or to have units like Kommandos and Koptas deep strike to distract the enemy long enough to get boyz closer. Personally my favorite "Tactic" is to hold onto 1-2 Kommando units and use them Turn 3 to grab objectives.

Regardless, until we get our codex there isn't a whole lot of strategy that can go into our game playing beyond ways to get into CC with boyz quickly.

TLDR

SemperMortis wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Quantity is a quality all it's own. Among other concepts, it is another reason comparing Orkz to non horde races has other factors to consoder beyond mathhammer in the vacuum. Marines shoot and do more damage then us, we shoot and do less damage, there are more of us standing there and every Imperial with a gun removed is much more valueable then any Ork with any weapon in most instances except maybe CC.

>>there are still more ork bodies there, a quality overlooked reguarly<< >>quantity is a quality all it's own<< >>nobody seems to care about this<<

This concept is at it's core why Orkz have to saturate(spam) models with similar toughness profiles to survive. We take the same model and spread it out across our list, and use our limited offense to work on the offense our opponent has brought that is effective against our spam. There, a reason for our shooting to be worse, we don't have to shoot their whole army to win, just the part that is going to delete my t4 models the fastest, or maybe my walkers if I brought that.. In a cleaner tactics thread I feel our purpose should not really sound like a whine, proposed changes, or everyone's endless need to tell one another why they are wrong, but more about finding out how to use what is in our book. Discussing our weaknesses, learning to use our strengths, and understanding how to deal with string units in other books with the units we have, not the units we want. Less GAK more TAC.

Well lets take a look at that. In our index we have 3 infantry units worth taking. Boyz, Stormboyz and Kommandos, of which Kommandos are a stretch. The only effective tactic we have at the moment is, get in close and chop them to pieces as quickly as possible to minimize damage to shooting. In your scenario you are saying we should focus on tactics to delete the enemies models that are good against T4 because that is our money maker. The average lists I play here are mostly Tau or Ultrasmurf Gunlines and the occasional Chaos army which feels like watered down imperials. my Smurf opponents always take Girlyman and a couple of razorbacks, 1-3 Predators and a bunch of primaris plasma Marines and scouts/tacticals to serve as a speed bump. So Clearly in a girlyman gunline against a horde of orkz the most dangerous units that need to die are the asscan Razorbacks. So what shooting units would you recommend that are either ranged enough or fast enough to kill a razorback turn 1. Lootas? Statistically 3 Lootas will inflict 1 damage a turn against a Razorback which has 10 wounds I believe, so we need 30 lootas to be statistically likely of killing a single Razorback turn 1. So for the low low price of 510pts we can delete 1 enemy razorback a turn. Tank Bustas? 8 Tankbustas will statistically get you 4 Hits, 3 wounds and 6 damage total on average So you need 16 tankbustas or about 10 with 2 Squigs to kill a Razorback, of course you cant let Tankbustas be on the field by themselves so you need to also buy a trukk, So for 275pts you can statistically get in range and kill a single Razorback. Keep in mind Razorbacks are only 100pts each....102 if he is smart enough to get the stormbolter on top. Of course if he gets first turn his Lascannons will likely target your 1-2 Trukkz filled with expensive short ranged troops and blow them up.

I could keep going but it won't change the point I am making. Orkz at the moment, and for the first time in a LONG time, don't have tactics. we have no flexibility in our list building because we have only a handful of units that are even worth taking. I agree with your premise about shooting their shooty stuff and it is a good tactic, but it won't work this edition because our gunz are so crap and overpriced that you are ceding them the game by bringing 90% of our shooting units. Right now the only way to win is to bring lots of boyz and stormboyz and hit them hard and fast. The only "Tactics" we really have are tricks to get us up the field faster or to have units like Kommandos and Koptas deep strike to distract the enemy long enough to get boyz closer. Personally my favorite "Tactic" is to hold onto 1-2 Kommando units and use them Turn 3 to grab objectives.

Regardless, until we get our codex there isn't a whole lot of strategy that can go into our game playing beyond ways to get into CC with boyz quickly.

The sad part is that all of this is actually accurate, there's no hyperbole.

Orks simply can't deal with vehicles this edition - Rhino/Chimera walls are unrealistically difficult to crack; which makes them essentially moving terrain that blocks charges. If your opponent brings a Knight/Land Raider/Super Heavy, the best thing you can do is try to ignore it - you aren't going to be bringing it down. And if they bring more than one...

To top it all off, Ork shooting simply doesn't exist - Orks always used to be the "buckets of dice" army; doubly so when it came to shooting. They weren't going to hit much, but there was more than enough dakka to go around - this time however, Imperial armies get MORE shots, BETTER ballistic skill, and CHEAPER points cost on MORE durable vehicles. Other armies should be jealous of the amount of dice thats Orks can roll, instead of the other way around - we don't even have the BS to fire our weapons accurately, let alone on the move or if the target has a -1 modifier (god forbid both come into play, then you're hitting on a 7+ with no way to increase that).

Its simply too much - there's no reason to play Orks, unless you want the Green Tide playstyle; and even then...

 Jidmah wrote:


When not fighting conscript, boyz do feel properly costed though. So it's conscripts that are out of line, not boyz.

I agree, conscripts are undercosted and have some broken rules/combos. They should be 4ppm and units of max 30 bodies. If orks had the chance to field mobs of 50 boyz, those boyz would be quite better than now even with the current profile and cost.

in response to the comments that say "gw focused on faction internal balance"

internal balance was my biggest gripe with 7th. yes we had some good units in 7th but they were so better then anything else in the codex it was a no brainer to bring anything else. a stormboy was nothing compared to a bike, so it was always a disadvantage to run any force of stormboys instead of bikes.
now im not saying everything is perfectly balanced in our faction in 8th, but its way closer then in previous editions. the only thing that makes units more desirable over anther is what our opponent would bring. if they brought nothing but anti tank then boyz are obviously more useful then gorkanauts, but that is all about the concept of external balance.
id rather have my codex 1st internally balanced before it is externally balanced, that way i can at least not feel like im hamstringing myself by bringing a dread mob instead of a green tide.
in previous editions gw seemed to focus on external balance, this would lead not only to codex creep, but also to most codex's having a whole bunch of useless models, the gap of useful and useless units had greatly decreased this edition.
if they now focus on external balance then we could have the more perfect game (an impossible feat, but worthy goal for any company to strive for), and as far as ive seen gw has been doing its best and better, could you have expected the changes we've had within the last few months a year ago?
gw balancing wont be perfect, but i have much more hope then before. before the announcement of 8th edition i was seriously depressed about orks, but now ive been reinvigorated in the hobby.

tldr. i am glad they focused on internal balance 1st, it increases the chances any choice is equal as far as ork units. i think gw is doing better by the hobby and in turn will do better for us orks. if or when they improve our faction we can expect most of our codex will be improved as well.





also, i highly doubt the playtesters were bought out to hype the game, i honestly think they tried their best to help gw, and in turn believe them when they say they think things are better. besides, it was up to gw to listen to the playtesters(they weren't obligated to change everything the tester would address) and also the playtesters haven't always been excited about every single thing, the great guys at front line gaming on multiple occasions addressed the imbalances of the game. the playtester also have a much closer ear to the ground when it comes to knowing whats coming next from gw, so i am more inclined to take their word when they say batter changes are coming, instead of a random forum poster who says "ive known gw long enough to know they will never do good by us!"

Thinking of starting a new conversion for my orks, and it's probably going to be either a Big Trakk, or a Squiggoth. I was just wondering which of these would be more effective on the table -

Big Trakk -
- Supa Skorcha
- 2x Rokkit Launchas
- 2x Grot Sponsons
Tankbustas x6 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x6
Total Points = 305


Squiggoth -
- Gorin' Horns
- Kannon
Tankbustas x10 -
- Boss Nob
- Rokkit Launchas x10
Total Points = 380


The Big Trakk seems to be killier in itself, and it's faster too.

The squiggoth can carry more boyz to do da killin' (and they can still shoot while the squiggoth is in combat). Also has +1 toughness and +3 Wounds.

Tough call. Hopefully you gitz will have some advice for me!