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 koooaei wrote:
It applies after all the other modifiers, i think.

So, 5+ to hit, -1 for moving = 6+ to hit, 'hang on' = still 6+, since it's not a +/- modifier. Correct?
This stuff is far and away the most confusing part of 8th to me....
Obviously, add an external -1 to hit and the moved Lootas become 7+ and remain so, with hang on clearly not granting a +1 to bring it back to 6+. I would guess thats the flip side of the 1st reading.

the way I read it;

I only hit on a 6+ due to hang on. But then, any hit rolls I must subtract 1 from. thus making any of my rolls never a 6. As If I roll a 6 its a 5. I cant see a way around it, unless hang on is a rule overriding the heavy weapons rule. which I dont think it is.

As the heavy weapons isnt a BS modifier, its a dice modifier, whereas hang on is a BS modifier. GW. Trying to find some good shooting units to go in my mechanised list of Kill tank and 2x Bigg trakks. But both lootas and gitz are my favourites, and I wanted to stick them in a list where they might see combat.
I know crazy, lootas in combat, but hey! if GW thinks they are priced right because they have a melee stat line.... well! then lets get crumpin'!

Was thinking about that too a few pages ago and for me the FAQ makes it clear.
Set values come before modifiers so that 6+ roll for your lootas still gets modified if the kill tank has moved.

Too bad because otherwise they would work perfekt as mobile flyer hunter if that 6+ would overrule all the other modifiers.

Kill tank specifies modifiers still apply from the vehicle. So they would not be able to hit as they have the modifier from moving.

I often run 11 Boyz in Trukk with warboss, often I run 2-3 units in that setup. The disembark move+advance and then assault gives them a large threat range. If I can I try to charge the trukk into the side of what I want to assault to eat overwatch then charge the Boyz in. I will charge these units into anything T7 or less. It's pretty easy to pop warboss out one side of trukk, and the unit out the other.

Oh well, too bad. Still, I remain a bigger fan of BC and/or Skorcha Nobz in survivable transports, drawing AT fire from less immediate threats. Combining that with jumped boyz has worked out ok for me in dealing with a range of things. Shooting at them rarely has. My scratch build has been more effective deployed as a Supa Skorcha Big Trakk than a Kill Tank. Leaves more points for choppy Nobz and their rides. When it's not on the shelf... With the SAGs (cries)...

Yeah I played a couple of games with SAGs and they were very underwhelming. One of the games I even rolled an eleven two turns in a row, but then the hits were 5 shots(hit twice...) And two shots which both missed. A SAG is a good way to waste 100pts and that's about it's only use. They are okay at hurting( I don't dare say killing..) light vehicles and artillery but that's about it and a lot of other things can do that.

As with so much of the Ork stuff, I don't really have a problem with the SAG per se, it's just WAY too expensive for what it's generally capable of achieving. On average, it's marginally more dangerous than a marine rapid-firing a plasma gun, with better range, and only available on an already expensive model most of whose stats/abilities are wasted if it's hanging out, not moving, in the backfield. Massive points drop, then it might be vaguely worthwhile.

Kommandos are my bread and butter, I have been winning tournaments of late with lists built around Kommandos.

My Current list is 6 max sized units of Kommandos and 2 Units of boyz and 2 units of Stormboyz along with a smattering of HQs and 2 units of grotz

The point is the stormboyz race after enemy objectives, 1 unit of boyz advances menacingly against my opponent and everything else camps the rear, turn 2 or 3 depending on where my boyzs/stormboyz are I have 60 Kommandos and 30 Boyz magically appear anywhere I want . I have watched my opponents faces after they thought they were doing well removing boyz and poof 90 just appeared IN CHARGE RANGE!

I remember seeing your kommando +stormboy list and thinking it would do well as it has a clear focus with zerg-rushing the enemy.

Care to post it again? You ran bc on all boss nobz or barebones? Is it worth running biker meks alongside stormboyz? Is your weirdboy left alone after jumping the boyz mob forward? Have you considered running Snikrot?

Cheers

Edit: How have you dealt with stormravens? I've been facing one in 1400 games and have just been ignoring it, but then I don't have any stormboyz..

Sluggaloo wrote:
I remember seeing your kommando +stormboy list and thinking it would do well as it has a clear focus with zerg-rushing the enemy.

Care to post it again? You ran bc on all boss nobz or barebones? Is it worth running biker meks alongside stormboyz? Is your weirdboy left alone after jumping the boyz mob forward? Have you considered running Snikrot?

Cheers

Edit: How have you dealt with stormravens? I've been facing one in 1400 games and have just been ignoring it, but then I don't have any stormboyz..

Sure Thing, its two detachments, Battalion and Vanguard

Battalion:

Big Mek on bike with KFF
Weirdboy da jump

boyz x30 with Nob/BC
Boyz x30 with nob/BC
Grots (Min)
Grots (Min)

Kommandos x 12 (Nob/BC)

Stormboyz x 20 (Nob/BC)
Stormboyz x 20 (Nob/BC)

VANGUARD:

Weirdboy Warpath

Kommandos x15 (Nob/BC)
Kommandos x15 (Nob/BC)
Kommandos x15 (Nob/BC)
Kommandos x15 (Nob/BC)
Kommandos x15 (Nob/BC)
Kommandos x15 (Nob/BC)

Big mek plays tag with the stormboyz and the Warpath Weirdboy goes with the foot sloggin boyz, the grots are rear objective holders and secondary/tertiary jumps if i need them somewhere else, the 2nd mob of boyz with the grots stay back field with the "Da Jump" Weirdboy

Turn 1 you advance your Stormboyz/Big Mek and Boyz squad, jump a unit of grots if you need to and then wait, turn 2 same thing, Turn 3 you have 72 Kommandos and 30 Boyz appear within 9inches of your opponent and watch as he poops himself .


As to your question about stormravens and other flyers, ignore them, stormboyz won't catch them unless your opponent is stupid. As for snikrot, he isn't worth it, his buff is bass ackwards. he should confer better cover or maybe just +1 cover in general to all units within 6, but he doesn't so don't waste the points, plus he isn't that great in CC anyway.

Finkin kaps on!

Da boss has 91 slugga, da best, and 46 shooterz, da bestez.

'Ees gone n got 6 more boxziz!!!!

Watz a boss to do? More sluggaz or more shooterz?

(asking for a friend....)

What about using Snikrot as an objective camper. Remember opponents cant target him unless he is the closest model, and you can hide him in an objective in some rooms and he gets a fat+3 save and 4 wounds iirc. Potentially our hardest to remove objective camper available to us, the enemy would need to dedicate a flier to fly up to him and gun him down if you position properly.

What about zaggstrukk? Fearless for your stormboyz cant be a bad thing if they're flying head on into the enemy gunline

Edit: Is there any reason you don't run the kommandos in min squads?

Cuz05 wrote:Oh well, too bad. Still, I remain a bigger fan of BC and/or Skorcha Nobz in survivable transports, drawing AT fire from less immediate threats. Combining that with jumped boyz has worked out ok for me in dealing with a range of things. Shooting at them rarely has. My scratch build has been more effective deployed as a Supa Skorcha Big Trakk than a Kill Tank. Leaves more points for choppy Nobz and their rides. When it's not on the shelf... With the SAGs (cries)...

Yeh I have been thinking about Nobz, but seems costly. At present the core of my mech list is; Kill tank, bigtrakk, meka-dred and a burna-bomma. Just working out the rest. Im now leaning towards melee centered units inside the vehicles.

Sluggaloo wrote:What about using Snikrot as an objective camper. Remember opponents cant target him unless he is the closest model, and you can hide him in an objective in some rooms and he gets a fat+3 save and 4 wounds iirc. Potentially our hardest to remove objective camper available to us, the enemy would need to dedicate a flier to fly up to him and gun him down if you position properly.

What about zaggstrukk? Fearless for your stormboyz cant be a bad thing if they're flying head on into the enemy gunline

Edit: Is there any reason you don't run the kommandos in min squads?

Snik is a nice idea for an objective camper.
I would assume due to detatchment rules, if he puts them in min squads he has too many units? But indeed it does sound like a strong list, I just cant be dealing with that many boyz!

Why would you take a close-combat specialist to be an objective camper? A character with WS 2+ and six attacks needs to fight to make his points back.

Why not take Badrukk if you want a backfield objective camper? He at least does some damage.

Because it's only 24 points more expensive than a min squad of kommandos but more durable since he can't be targeted unless he's the closest model. Being an HQ he can also be usueful to unlock an additional detachment sometimes.

In a list with tons of kommandos he could be interesting even as a simple objective camper, he can give a decent buff for the other units and with 60-90 kommandos on the field his re-rollings may even be something. I haven't tried him in this edition though.

 Blackie wrote:
Because it's only 24 points more expensive than a min squad of kommandos but more durable since he can't be targeted unless he's the closest model. Being an HQ he can also be usueful to unlock an additional detachment sometimes.

In a list with tons of kommandos he could be interesting even as a simple objective camper, he can give a decent buff for the other units and with 60-90 kommandos on the field his re-rollings may even be something. I haven't tried him in this edition though.

Oi! Why are we still 'ere? Jus ta suffah'?..

Well, jokes aside now. I think that kommando squads that big can be crippled by lack of wargear (like 0 point burnaz) and nobs.

Snikrot is one of our best objective campers/grabbers, he can appear just about anywhere turn 3 (so that is 2 turns of no shooting) and cannot be targeted (except by snipers) unless he is closest. He also has six 3+ save wounds when in cover. He is also great in relic missions if you get first turn, drop on the relic then da jump him 9" behind other models.

The Orky Xeeerrsize of da' day;

If da' Boss az 1 kill tank an' 2 supa-skorcha Bigtrakkz how many Nobz does he fit in da kill tank to has enuff skorcha's to burn da wurld?

Da Big Mek finks;
if da kill tank takes 2 skorchas, den da bigtrakkz takez 2 skorchas and 2 bigshootas; den 5 Nobz wit 3 Kombi-skorchas is enuff flamez for all the flamey needz. Den each Nob takes n' ammo runt strapped to his chest for protecshun an 3 BC's an 2 powa stabbaz.
Dis way I has plenty of flamez, wit 2 nobz for xtra wounds, n 5 ammo runts for all dem lascannons.

Whatz you udder mekz be finkin'?

Ye never got nuf flamez

pismakron wrote:
Why would you take a close-combat specialist to be an objective camper? A character with WS 2+ and six attacks needs to fight to make his points back.

If he's held an objective that wins you the game, he's made back his points whether he got into combat or not.

His weapons aren't that great anyway.

What do you do with deffrola Battlewagon after it drops it's payload? Who do you charge? How much wounds does it usually have when it reaches the opponents and who/what can it kill?

Also, if all Deffkoptas in a unit are equipped with Big Bomb, can they drop *ALL* of them on enemy unit they flew over?

Azhday wrote:
What do you do with deffrola Battlewagon after it drops it's payload? Who do you charge? How much wounds does it usually have when it reaches the opponents and who/what can it kill?

Also, if all Deffkoptas in a unit are equipped with Big Bomb, can they drop *ALL* of them on enemy unit they flew over?

Generally speaking, T1 you send most battlewagons forward (except ones with shooty units) in a straight bee-line to whatever targets that matter. T2, hopefully your battlewagon survived and is within deployment/charge range of the target unit. You usually use the battlewagon as the overwatch soaker by having them charge the unit you're going to charge with the battlewagon's former occupants. As to how many wounds it has before it reaches combat, it really depends on who you face. If it's a shooty army like Tau, maybe half its wounds (though it can potentially be alpha struck to death by scions or cacaphony enabled combi-plasma chaos termies). Against shooting limited armies like Chaos Daemons, it could be practically unscathed. Presumably, you took a deffrolla, in which case it is best served against infantry. S8 means you wound on 2's generally speaking and 6 attacks alongside AP-2 ensures you can run over most chaff units and damage 3+ save units reliably.

As far as I remember, as long as all the deffkoptas flew over the unit/model, they can all drop Big Bomms on it.

Azhday wrote:
What do you do with deffrola Battlewagon after it drops it's payload? Who do you charge? How much wounds does it usually have when it reaches the opponents and who/what can it kill?

Also, if all Deffkoptas in a unit are equipped with Big Bomb, can they drop *ALL* of them on enemy unit they flew over?

I had this amusing thought about Deffrolla BWs after they drop the load of Nobz/Boss/whatever. If you Da Jump a unit of 20 Gretchen up to the wagon and have them embark next round before the wagon moves, you suddenly have 20 pistols that can hit on 3+ at the same time you are running over stuff with the def rolla. And the gretchen are safe until the BW explodes.

I never take the deff rolla unless I'm fielding more than a wagon. And the rolla goes to the less scary transport, so if you have a wagon full of nobz, meganobz or boyz plus a warboss/ghaz don't give that transport a rolla since it's priority target anyway.

If you have a wagon full of expensive stuff and a second one with 20 boyz a def rolla for the latter could be a decent option.

Never give the rolla to a wagon that carries shooty units like flash gitz or tankbustas.

I usually don't have the points to use them though, even with 3 BWs.

I'm interested in starting orks. Here's the list I've been tinkering with to start building towards. Any tips?


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Orks) [117 PL, 1998pts] ++

+ HQ +

Warboss on Bike : Power Klaw, Shoota

Weirdboy : 3. Da Jump

+ Troops +

Boyz
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 26x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 26x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

Boyz ]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Shoota
. 11x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa

+ Elites +

Burna Boyz 15x Burna Boy

Tankbustas : 2x Bomb Squig
. Boss Nob: Rokkit Launcha
. 5x Tankbusta: 5x Rokkit Launcha

+ Fast Attack +

Warbuggies ]
. Warbuggy: Twin Big Shoota

Warbuggies
. Warbuggy: Twin Big Shoota

+ Heavy Support +

Battlewagon 4x Big Shoota, Deff Rolla

Battlewagon : 4x Big Shoota, Deff Rolla

Flash Gitz ]: 10x Ammo Runt, 9x Flash Git
. Kaptin: Choppa

+ Dedicated Transport +

Trukk ]: Big Shoota

Trukk ]: Big Shoota

++ Total: [117 PL, 1998pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

It's ok, however i'd save the points on bigshootas and invest them into something else. Also, split burnaboyz into 2 squads. Or get more tankbustas instead - they usually do better than burna boyz.

Ditch the big shootas and try to increase the number of the smaller mobz of boyz, aim at 3x30 boyz. I'd also ditch one rolla at least since the flash gitz transport is not going to charge, but probably both rollas can be skipped, and with the spared points add as many tankbustas you can add.

I agree, there is little reason to field 12 boyz in a trukk when you can jump 30 across the board.

In addition, for jumping mobs you should equip them with shootas. Charges might fail to roll the needed 9", but shootas will always be in range - and when the 30 boyz get into combat, the extra attack from the choppa is usually not needed anyways.

 Jidmah wrote:

In addition, for jumping mobs you should equip them with shootas.

That's optional. 30 shootas still do very little at range. As you're basically only getting 30 extra shots the turn you arrive. 30 shots is <1 dead marine. And is statistically 0.416 dead marines in cover. Besides, you don't always know what blob you're going to jump.

It all depends on the personal preference. For example, i prefer squads composed of 10 shootas, 19 sluggas and a nob. I feel that it's optimal to have at least some shooting without any noticeable drop in mellee output. Because it's not a guarantee that all the boyz are able to strike simultaniously, so the shootas can hang further back and still provide this tiny bit of damage even if they don't make it to combat. And if you need more mellee damage, shootas go down first. If you really need shooting and want to stay out of comba, kill choppaboyz first.

You might find another combination suits you better. I'm almost always advancing the boyz, so choppas are more preferable. But no shooting at all is really bad vs bauble wraps.