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gnome_idea_what wrote:I was thinking about target saturation, and was wondering: seeing as both bombers (especially burnas) are basically kamikaze units once they've dropped their bombs, is it a trap to take bombers in an otherwise footslogger list? They do attract otherwise-wasted heavy weapon fire like any other vehicle, but can they do their job despite that, or are they just much better in a mechanized list where you can make your opponent waste their anti-infantry and then their anti-tank?

The issue are not the anti-tank guns, but the multi-damage stuff with multiple shots like autocannons, plasma or similar. But yes, the bommers perform a lot better when you have some trukks, battlewagons, mek guns, koptaz or walkers otherwise. So footsloggers with kanz and mek guns might still work, pure green tide less so.

Also, how do you transport nobs?

Battlewagons or just have them run up the field. They are not a lot less survivable than boyz if you buy ammo runts.

Adding on to my previous question - Which would people choose as a unit, transporting a squad of tankbustas.

1) A Squiggoth with a kannon - 210pts

2) A Big Trakk with Supa-Skorcha and 2x Grot Sponsons - 179pts


Advantage of the Squiggoth is a couple extra wounds and +1T.

Advantage of Big Trakk is an actually decent weapon system, and saving 31pts.

Not sure if it helps but against Dark Eldar the squiggoth hasn't been great for me, it suffers poison damage and can't be healed or repaired, plus the dark eldar anti-tank options will score a lot of hits if you're not playing with obscuring terrain that 1st turn.
I've been tempted to bring the Big-Mek with KFF to support one, haven't crunched whether the save would be better, but even then it seems like the mek might as well be on something he can repair that's staying out of melee.
It's charge and other benefits have been underwhelming for me, and I'm left with the impression that it's just a meatshield, maybe someone else has had a more positive experience though, in higher point games with more units it might not get focused down.

I usually bring 4 units of 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig in two trukks when I take them. I don't like T7 battlewagons, it seems a waste to me, but with the 'ard case bustas can't shoot while embarked.

 Blackie wrote:
I usually bring 4 units of 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig in two trukks when I take them. I don't like T7 battlewagons, it seems a waste to me, but with the 'ard case bustas can't shoot while embarked.

That's actually a good point, haven't thought about it that way... T7 isn't that more survivable than T6, so I might as well just get trukks for my shooty units.

the wagons get more wounds and GUNZ but at a heck of a cost.

I like the idea of running 5 nobz, 5 ammo runts, 5 tankbustas, 2 bomb squigs (with room for additionnal nobz/bustas/characters) in a wagon (and run multiple of these), although you can't take the 'ard case. Yeah, probably better to stick with trukks for tankbustas, and run nobz, boyz and characters in 'ard case wagons...

 Nithaniel wrote:
the wagons get more wounds and GUNZ but at a heck of a cost.

Yes, but two trucks have more wounds than 1BW at a very similar cost, can cover 2 areas of the board and force the opponent to split fire, possibly inefficiently.

Curious on how people are running Kommandos and Stormboyz - are they better run in minimum squads of 5 for morale purposes (as they're often away from mobs of boyz for mob rule), or in full-size squads to mob-rule themselves?

Kommandos I suspect might be minimum squads, especially with the 2 free burnas per squad at the moment. Dunno about stormboyz though.

Niiru wrote:
Curious on how people are running Kommandos and Stormboyz - are they better run in minimum squads of 5 for morale purposes (as they're often away from mobs of boyz for mob rule), or in full-size squads to mob-rule themselves?

Kommandos I suspect might be minimum squads, especially with the 2 free burnas per squad at the moment. Dunno about stormboyz though.

Stormboyz are better off in larger squads IMO, since you're likely to go for the advance and charge ability they have which can cause a few casualties along the way. It's trivial for say, a 20 strong mob, but for a min squad like 5, it makes them dangerously low and weak to overwatch. 15-20 seems to be the ideal number IMO, especially since they don't have to worry about being around 20 orks to get a bonus attack like boyz do. I would try and run at least 2 squads of stormboyz though, mainly for target saturation and flexibility, but also because then Zagstruk gets more mileage with his "no-morale tests for stormboyz" bubble aura.

Kommandos, however, seem geared towards MSU style 5 man squads since you get 2 free burnas for each squad. Also, unlike stormboyz, they don't have the character synergy and same time of mobility that they do. They're best for mid-to-late game objective grabs and linebreaker VP holders.

Minimum squads can usually do little but score an objective, and it's pretty much suicide to charge anything that has a flamer.

SemperMortis seems to be having a lot of success with full kommando squads, which matches what a fellow ork player is experiencing with his unit of kommandos. After deploying you just use them like a unit of slugga boyz, the burnas help a little with the missing numbers.

I like burnas thematically.

What is their most effective use?

Burna wagons?

Minimum sized squads for objective keeping/ shooting kustomblastas/fixing stuff?

Burnas are best in squads of kommandoes. If you want burna units, they can be used to fill free spaces in wagons and trukks but not very effectively.

Zomnivore wrote:
I like burnas thematically.

What is their most effective use?

Burna wagons?

Minimum sized squads for objective keeping/ shooting kustomblastas/fixing stuff?

I had minimal success just footslogging them, as most of my opponent's anti-infantry guns were busy shooting either lootaz or boy mobs that jumped into their face.
So they pretty much weren't killed because they are worse than everything else. Kind of plot armor?
Since spannaz with KMB cost more points than burnaz and their fixing range ridiculously low, they are pretty much useless. The only thing that is somewhat cute is that they can take kombi-skorchas. But if you do that, you might as well just take the character mek for +8 points with more wounds and character status, as well as the option for a grot oiler.

For burna wagons to make sense you would have to field two or three more wagons with stuff that your opponent wants to kill more. Unless you are playing 2500 points or more, there is simply not enough points.

People we Orkz play against almost unanimously HATE lootas.
Keeping a few in a bunker would almost always attract a lot of anti tank power, and its really not that easy to remove. I have had good luck with this idea in 7th.
Might save you a full turn of anti tank shooting for not a gak ton of points.

bonus* my homemade bunker with recently flamed right window.

 Dojo wrote:
People we Orkz play against almost unanimously HATE lootas.
Keeping a few in a bunker would almost always attract a lot of anti tank power, and its really not that easy to remove. I have had good luck with this idea in 7th.
Might save you a full turn of anti tank shooting for not a gak ton of points.

bonus* my homemade bunker with recently flamed right window.

I agree with the loota hatred, but I don't know where it comes from. People are deathly afraid of a 17-point model that gets 2/3 of a hit every turn.

Sure, if you take 15, they can put some some holes in units but at 255 points it's just not that big of a deal. There are completely unbuffable by any means and die when looked at.

To pay for the battlewagon for them makes them well over 400 points, and even that can easily die on turn 1. I've complained to GW about them (more than once) as they are no where near worth 17 points.

Its a real phenomena, perhaps because they have such a high potential, they just dont reach it frequently, but players have been burned by loota fire before so they vow to never let it happen again! I say we abuse that, if its another turn for our trukks, BW's, Killtanks, and others to get across the field its worth the price of a bunker and some lootas, cuz when our army gets there only lightly harassed their will is done all the same.

48 inch range makes Lootas a constant problem for enemies from deployment all the way to choosing an attack strategy. Most armies don't like the idea of moving into a 45 dice threat if they can't attack said threat and Lootas typically force an enemy to consider "Well what do I want to let him shoot?". Alot of weapons you fire at t4 models are small arms and usually don't have much range either. And on top of this, you are orkz, which means it's fifteen gitz with gunz he has to kill not five gitz with better guns. Yes most of us here will remove all but 3 of our fifteen Lootas and not expect the last three to do anything meaningful, but enemies will still look at that squad and treat them like a threat, which can also work in your favor.

It also works out that Lootas can be on one objective and fire at things standing on another object quite often.

Yep, but it's a very expensive distraction unit. Consider AM autocannons...they have better BS, Armor and an extra wound for 2 points but have the same gun. And nobody is saying AM autocannons are OP.

I would LOVE to spend 2 points to bump my lootas armor, ballistic skill and wounds!!

 JimOnMars wrote:
Yep, but it's a very expensive distraction unit. Consider AM autocannons...they have better BS, Armor and an extra wound for 2 points but have the same gun. And nobody is saying AM autocannons are OP.

I would LOVE to spend 2 points to bump my lootas armor, ballistic skill and wounds!!

Jim is right just use pay the extra 2 points and use Heavy Weapon teams.

In fact we shouldn't play Orkz we should play AM

Orkz are just a distraction army.

If we'z put on flak jackets on the Lootaz we can shoot like AM, nobody will notice.

This is now AM tactics thread

Affix Choppas!

Given that it doesn't seem likely that we'll be in the first part of the next wave of codices in 2018, it'll largely depend on how the point fixes are for Orks in Chapter Approved.

 Rismonite wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Yep, but it's a very expensive distraction unit. Consider AM autocannons...they have better BS, Armor and an extra wound for 2 points but have the same gun. And nobody is saying AM autocannons are OP.

I would LOVE to spend 2 points to bump my lootas armor, ballistic skill and wounds!!

Jim is right just use pay the extra 2 points and use Heavy Weapon teams.

In fact we shouldn't play Orkz we should play AM

Orkz are just a distraction army.

If we'z put on flak jackets on the Lootaz we can shoot like AM, nobody will notice.

This is now AM tactics thread

Affix Choppas!

Wow did you miss the point, sheesh.

The point was not to switch armies. The point was to write GW. Get them to fix the unit.

You're not often up against 15 AM AC teams though...

but yes, Lootas are too fragile for their cost.

 Oguhmek wrote:
You're not often up against 15 AM AC teams though...

but yes, Lootas are too fragile for their cost.

Yep. Because AM has vastly better units than superlootas...another reason why our crippled version should get a massive point drop. Write GW!

IMHO lootas may now work only along with green tides. They compete with anti infantry in a list with all infantries and they may get the benefit from a KFF or a painboy and from the mobs' LDs. Nothing impressive of course but they may be decent even with the current profile. They need a reduction in price though, 13-14 points per model would be appropriate, but 75% of the ork codex needs a 25% (or more) discount.

True they are a bit expensive, and adding the vost of a bunker is considerable, but i think for the points it adds quite a bit more durability, that combined with the hate for lootas i think makea difference. You can imagine if they drop a squad of termies or somthing to go deal with it and shoot it same turn? then it dies horribly, but you get a chunk of army moved forward and they have a squad of terminators who are going to struggle around the back of your board not doing much.

Lootas suffer the same problem they have suffered since 4th edition, too expensive, not durable enough and not enough dakka. Fix any one of those and the unit becomes ok, fix two of those issues and the unit becomes good. Fix all three and it becomes a Staple Unit in every list.

In 4th and 5th Lootaz were all but mandatory, some lists even played 45 of them which was the absolute maximum possible at that time.

The presence of lootaz everywhere was so massive that GW increased their points and move them from elite to heavy support in the last codex to prevent them from being used alongside kanz and battlewagons, the two top competitive lists for orks in 5th.
However, at that time the 6th edition had already neutered lootaz because they could no longer reliably destroy psyflemen, razorbacks, serpents or any flyers at all for that matter, so the additional nerf send them down from borderline playable to useless.

So, please enlighten me what problems they have "suffered" since 4th edition, except maybe being one of the best three units in the codex.

You say they were "all but mandatory" But I remember them having no place in the top tournament lists. Kan Wall,Green Tide, Trukk Rush, Battlewagon Rush.

They were good for one thing, killing light vehicles, they were ok at killing medium vehicles, but when it came to actually killing elite infantry and vehicles the heavy lifters were Power Klaws, or in the Kan Wall list, Kan Klaws.

So they were OK in 4th but they still had massive flaws that kept them from the Tournament scene.

And they were still fragile and would run away at the drop of a hat in 4th and 5th

I didnt even know i could get lootas back in 4th which is the edition i started in, i dont think they were in the codex. But i always managed well enough with the sweet ass Choppa rule and my dreadnaught.