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I didn't use lootas in 5-th cause they were not required when you have a ton of bodies that wreck things in mellee. Kinda like now. They used to be much better, however, and i acknowledge their possible utility back than. They were even ok in 6-th and passable in 7-th. But not now.

SemperMortis wrote:
You say they were "all but mandatory" But I remember them having no place in the top tournament lists. Kan Wall,Green Tide, Trukk Rush, Battlewagon Rush.

Neither green tide nor trukk rush were anywhere near a top tournament list. The only reason kan wall and battlewagons worked was because of 4++ KFF

They were good for one thing, killing light vehicles, they were ok at killing medium vehicles,

Like fast las-plas razorbacks spammed by bloodangels?
Or like manticores and chimeras of the infamous leaf blower? You only way to fight those was to hope that your lootaz were able to shake or stun one or two of them until you would get lucky reserve rolls for your koptaz.
Not to mention they were the only thing that could actually touch long fangs while their reign of terror lasted...
... only to be outdone by psyflemen
Oh, and good thing no one could use DAVUs to score objectives from inside a serpent that could tank-shock onto objectives from the other side of the board last turn.

5th was all about spamming light to medium vehicles. You know, because there weren't any hull points, which meant that all shooty vehicles had a 3++ save because everything but 5 or 6 meant nothing.
High volume S7 shooting was the best you could do in 5th.

but when it came to actually killing elite infantry and vehicles the heavy lifters were Power Klaws, or in the Kan Wall list, Kan Klaws.

Elite infantry? You mean like suicide melta terminators or sternguard?

So they were OK in 4th but they still had massive flaws that kept them from the Tournament scene.

And they were still fragile and would run away at the drop of a hat in 4th and 5th

I somehow doubt that the tournament scene you seem to be remembering was actually that competitive.

Wishlisting here for the codex, but orks should get a factionwide rule where the enemy starts with less command points (or even 0 if the ork units stay in their current state).

There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot.

-Mark Twain

Thoughts?

Sluggaloo wrote:
Wishlisting here for the codex, but orks should get a factionwide rule where the enemy starts with less command points (or even 0 if the ork units stay in their current state).

There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot.

-Mark Twain

Thoughts?

CP's aren't the area IMO where Orks need to compete with other armies. It's the core units that have the issue and nerfing your opponent's ability to use stratagems won't matter that much if they can just beat you the old fashioned way.

 Grimskul wrote:

Sluggaloo wrote:
Wishlisting here for the codex, but orks should get a factionwide rule where the enemy starts with less command points (or even 0 if the ork units stay in their current state).

There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot.

-Mark Twain

Thoughts?

CP's aren't the area IMO where Orks need to compete with other armies. It's the core units that have the issue and nerfing your opponent's ability to use stratagems won't matter that much if they can just beat you the old fashioned way.

I would agree, for the most part it’s not strategems that wreck orks, it’s having units that efficiently shred whatever variety of toughness and wounds value you brought being able to do their damage before being silenced.

I don't think the CP system needs any overhaul at all, once everyone has a bunch of useful stratagems and relics to chose from the difference between Codex and just rerolls and counter-offensive will disappear.
People are just complaining about it because the new guard can apparently get ridiculous amounts of CP without going out of their way. The next week or two will show how problematic this actually is.

Let's not make this thread about AM unless it's about how to split their heads with choppas.

In my area lootas were an auto-take in 5th edition. The typical tournament list was ghaz or generic warboss + big mek with KFF + 3 BWs + boyz + Nob bikers + lootas.

I used to always take a SAG big mek. He was rarely really effective at killing stuff but being the only large blast he pulled his weight forcing the enemy to hold coherency and thus minimise the retaliation damage to my footslogging boyz.

It wasn't good at killing anything but elite infantry out of cover though.
The big difference to 8th's SAG was that it was still awesome. I still remember the glorious game where my SAG mek mishapped to charge 60" across the board, punched the chimera he was targeting and died in its explosion.
It's up there with my warboss using a wrecked vendetta as a bridge to charge from the top level of one ruin to another.

Yeah, i mostly kept the shokk attakk gun mek for hilarity trying to fool my inner powergamer with "forcing my enemy to spread out" nonsense.

Most of the time he was just there doing nothing or exploding himself or friendly ork squads. Twas cool. Now i can't even justify taking a model with such a cool concept. Well, on the other hand, kommandoes are even better than before. And i used to run them in 7-th anywayz. Cause blood axes love kommandoes. 5-th edition kommandoes were nuts. Charging out of outflank won me not one game. Even though i haven't even used the broken combo of outflanking Snikrot+Ghazzy.

Some one please enlighten me,

How do I crush or win against the current competitive/casual meta? Besides spamming stormboyz.

I ran 150 boyz, with like 3 painboyz, 5 weirdboyz, 3 MANZ for the lulz, 2 biker mek with KFF, and zhadsnark.

Against a casual DA list I barely won against my opponent. Am I running my boyz wrong or something? I usually just bubble wrap boyz around character that gives buffs and advance and charge forward.

You need Kommandos and Storm boyz, along with DA jump to be in your enemies face turn 1 and lock them down while the rest of your stuff moves up. I don't rate the buff characters all that much, to me they are often win more options and the points would be better spent on more boyz.

Do you play maelstorm or eternal war missions?

Imho 8th ed started out ok for orks armies but as each codex comes out it's going downhill.

Several tenets of 8th are being brought right back into 7th ed mentality.
1) Each codex now have several options to fall back and either shoot or charge again or both.
2) each codex now has options to increase bs during overwatch
3) each codex now has options to stack high invul saves such as 2++.
4) each codex now has options to obtain several types of reroll misses and wounds and damage making shooting much stronger again.

In the beginning of 8th it appeared they were limiting these types of shenanigans and while it is still much better then 7th. It makes playing horde style melee lists extemely difficult. Gw will need to give orks some strong clan rules in order to keep up with the power creep.

If they would just fix our shooting, we could just blow up whatever is bothering us, like everyone else.

We need more dakka.

The optimist in me hopes they'll give us more/better dakka, I just can't see GW not trying to fix this. I also think they'll give us a strategem/tool of some sorts that punishes falling back. D6 wounds for a retreating against 20+ boyz or a strategem of a similar effect.

 Jidmah wrote:
If they would just fix our shooting, we could just blow up whatever is bothering us, like everyone else.

We need more dakka.

Agreed.

I've been thinking, I don't think it's particularly fair for Orks to be in particular shafted by -hit modifiers. What if they got a codex-wide rule called something like "Wave of bullets" or something, that says Ork units always hit on a natural 6, as they shoot so many rounds in the opponent's direction that "dodging out of the way" is not really feasible?

GW, theoretically, listens to us now. I know I sound like a broken record when saying this....but please write to their rules email and let them know.

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

 koooaei wrote:
Do you play maelstorm or eternal war missions?

Mainly eternal war casually, or NOVA mission or ITB missions.

ITB missions favors orks a bit more, as I can stretch a whole mob across at least 2 objectives.

They really need to make ork viable. Like make shoota assault 3 or slugga pistol 2, or make certain specialist ork unit bs +4.

Although warpath, da jump, and mass smite spam is fun.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
You say they were "all but mandatory" But I remember them having no place in the top tournament lists. Kan Wall,Green Tide, Trukk Rush, Battlewagon Rush.

Neither green tide nor trukk rush were anywhere near a top tournament list. The only reason kan wall and battlewagons worked was because of 4++ KFF

They were good for one thing, killing light vehicles, they were ok at killing medium vehicles,

Like fast las-plas razorbacks spammed by bloodangels?
Or like manticores and chimeras of the infamous leaf blower? You only way to fight those was to hope that your lootaz were able to shake or stun one or two of them until you would get lucky reserve rolls for your koptaz.
Not to mention they were the only thing that could actually touch long fangs while their reign of terror lasted...
... only to be outdone by psyflemen
Oh, and good thing no one could use DAVUs to score objectives from inside a serpent that could tank-shock onto objectives from the other side of the board last turn.

5th was all about spamming light to medium vehicles. You know, because there weren't any hull points, which meant that all shooty vehicles had a 3++ save because everything but 5 or 6 meant nothing.
High volume S7 shooting was the best you could do in 5th.

but when it came to actually killing elite infantry and vehicles the heavy lifters were Power Klaws, or in the Kan Wall list, Kan Klaws.

Elite infantry? You mean like suicide melta terminators or sternguard?

So they were OK in 4th but they still had massive flaws that kept them from the Tournament scene.

And they were still fragile and would run away at the drop of a hat in 4th and 5th

I somehow doubt that the tournament scene you seem to be remembering was actually that competitive.

simple solution, prove your point. Find me some big tournaments from 5th - 6th with tons of lootas.

 fr3ddy wrote:

Mainly eternal war casually, or NOVA mission or ITB missions.

Try maelstorm. Eternal war missions are really hard for orks cause they favor defensive gunlines and orks are anything but this. Not familiar with Nova or ITB, so can't tell.

SemperMortis wrote:
simple solution, prove your point. Find me some big tournaments from 5th - 6th with tons of lootas.

Moving goalposts again, are we? Weren't you just rambling about 4th and 5th in your last post?

I'll find you a bunch of tournaments with lootaz, if you find me a single one where green tide or trukk rush did well.

Matt root did well with ork greentide in 6th. That's about as far back as I remember someone doing well as in top 10. Depends what you define as tournament. I'm only considering grand and majors.

Warbosses or Weirdboyz? Which is better for the points? Warbosses have to footslog with the boyz and watch them get whittled down around them, but weirdboyz aren't very survivable and can only 'da jump' one squad of boyz a turn.

Shrapnelbait wrote:
Warbosses or Weirdboyz? Which is better for the points? Warbosses have to footslog with the boyz and watch them get whittled down around them, but weirdboyz aren't very survivable and can only 'da jump' one squad of boyz a turn.

If you play footsloggers you need both. Warbosses are necessary for morale purpose, weirdboyz to buff the boyz, deliver them and they also can cast smite, which is always good. If you don't prlay footsloggers you can drop the psykers, but a warboss or ghaz is pretty much an auto take in any kind of list. Unless you play a big mek themed army with tons of artillery and walkers, in that case the warboss is not needed.

Kromlech/bitsowar just released some amazing looking 3rd party models for Wartrakks.

https://bitsofwar.com/home/709-orc-sturmtankette.html

Have any of you guys gotten around to using any wartrakks? On paper, they don't look impressive at all, way overcosted for their point cost.

But I'd love to be proven wrong as an excuse to pick one up!

ajax_xaja wrote:
Kromlech/bitsowar just released some amazing looking 3rd party models for Wartrakks.

https://bitsofwar.com/home/709-orc-sturmtankette.html

Have any of you guys gotten around to using any wartrakks? On paper, they don't look impressive at all, way overcosted for their point cost.

But I'd love to be proven wrong as an excuse to pick one up!

I think I asked this question a couple pages ago, with wartrakks vs skorchas vs buggies, but the general consensus seemed to be "not very good, but usable".

I might pick one of those up anyway though, just cos it looks cool lol

Hows everyone Fareing with morkanauts? i Ordered one and im curious how much fun i can have with it after having to retire my stompa for this edition.
It shows at least some promise as long as i field some other larger units to split the anti tank fire.
Also im trying a supreme command of 5 weirdboyz for an ork smite star, 5 different weirdboyz models from across editions and from fantasy/sigmar, could be pretty cool on table.

 Dojo wrote:
Hows everyone Fareing with morkanauts? i Ordered one and im curious how much fun i can have with it after having to retire my stompa for this edition.
It shows at least some promise as long as i field some other larger units to split the anti tank fire.
Also im trying a supreme command of 5 weirdboyz for an ork smite star, 5 different weirdboyz models from across editions and from fantasy/sigmar, could be pretty cool on table.

The morkanaut is strictly worse than the gorkanaut. The gorkanaut is okay if you spam a lot of T8, but some players will cripple it on their first turn of shooting. The nauts owng shooting is useless, but their close-combat is very good, until they start degrading. But you should definately pick the gorkanaut over the morkanaut.

Also, don't write off the stompa for this edition. Right now it is so useless, that it might get a big buff or point-reduction in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ajax_xaja wrote:

Have any of you guys gotten around to using any wartrakks? On paper, they don't look impressive at all, way overcosted for their point cost.

Wartrakks are definately overcosted for their point cost

They are fairly durable for their cost, but their shooting is poor, and their close combat is even poorer. I think you pay a lot for WS 3+ that on a model with only 4 S4 attacks, and for a deepstrike ability that is not very usefull on a fast unit with fairly long range shooting. The alternatives are warbikers and kans, and I think both options are better. Warbikers (in squads of three) get more dakka whereas kans are better in melee, especially with a banner.

I thought buggies were good last edtion when they were like AV10 3HP TL rokkits for 25 points.

Now they are 3 times that and I think die alot faster.