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 Dr.Duck wrote:
I thought buggies were good last edtion when they were like AV10 3HP TL rokkits for 25 points.

Now they are 3 times that and I think die alot faster.

They had 2 HP. I prefered to use trukks instead. Just a wee bit more expensive but are much larger, tougher and have more utility cause they can tank shock and pick up units that would have to footslog when their own trukk gets wrecked.

Well, a full unit of 5 buggies with rokkits was only 125 points, now with that budget you can't even field 2. Since buggies are among my favorite units and I've always preferred fast stuff over bodies I sometimes played them in 7th edition, even with decent results.

Empty trukks could perform better for some specific tactics, but I typically fielded 8 trukks full of boyz, meganobz or bustas anyway and I didn't own 5 other trukks to add to that kind of list.They were 5 points more expensive than buggies, only have a single shot instead of a TL one and couldn't outflank. I mostly used them as a distraction unit or bullet magnet, but 5 TL rokkits, even with orks BS, sometimes actually did something.

Now they are truly unplayable. Only min squads of 1 with big shootas or skorchas may be viable but still sub optimal units and they don't have any synergy with the only competitive built we currently have, the spam of t-shirt save bodies plus characters.

Buggies (and koptaz) were essentially fast rokkits or skorchas.
With the index, the points and the survivability doubled, but the number of hits each models produces did not.
Both unit's don't work anymore because you essentially just get less weapons for the same points, even if those points are harder to kill now.

Sluggaloo wrote:
Wishlisting here for the codex, but orks should get a factionwide rule where the enemy starts with less command points (or even 0 if the ork units stay in their current state).

There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot.

-Mark Twain

Thoughts?

Awesome idea, fluffy as hell and probably wouldn't effect the game that much. Maybe rule it as "when your opponent uses a stratagem roll 1d3 (or d6 maybe?), on 3 it costs +1 CP"?

How good would you rate nobz?

Are they just condensed boys?

Pretty much.

Zomnivore wrote:
How good would you rate nobz?

Are they just condensed boys?

Not quite I don't think. Two reasons, the first being that they have access to better weapons even if you go the cheap route and only give them power stabbas (but better when you give them all big choppas). Second, the better save with 2 wounds each and runts to soak multi-damage weapons makes them a lot more survivable. I've had ten Nobs outlast 30 boys frequently.

It would be really nice to get the option of having Shield nobs that actually get a 3 or 4 invuln save like everyone else. I could definitely see nobs using looted ogryn shields in the fluff.

pismakron wrote:

 Dojo wrote:
Hows everyone Fareing with morkanauts? i Ordered one and im curious how much fun i can have with it after having to retire my stompa for this edition.
It shows at least some promise as long as i field some other larger units to split the anti tank fire.
Also im trying a supreme command of 5 weirdboyz for an ork smite star, 5 different weirdboyz models from across editions and from fantasy/sigmar, could be pretty cool on table.

The morkanaut is strictly worse than the gorkanaut. The gorkanaut is okay if you spam a lot of T8, but some players will cripple it on their first turn of shooting. The nauts owng shooting is useless, but their close-combat is very good, until they start degrading. But you should definately pick the gorkanaut over the morkanaut.

Also, don't write off the stompa for this edition. Right now it is so useless, that it might get a big buff or point-reduction in the codex

I thought the Mork was the for sure winner with its big KFF bubble and anti tank shooting, albeit at bs5+. They Melee the same and can protect other stuff.
What makes the gork better? just volume of shots?

Shrapnelbait wrote:

Zomnivore wrote:
How good would you rate nobz?

Are they just condensed boys?

Not quite I don't think. Two reasons, the first being that they have access to better weapons even if you go the cheap route and only give them power stabbas (but better when you give them all big choppas). Second, the better save with 2 wounds each and runts to soak multi-damage weapons makes them a lot more survivable. I've had ten Nobs outlast 30 boys frequently.

It would be really nice to get the option of having Shield nobs that actually get a 3 or 4 invuln save like everyone else. I could definitely see nobs using looted ogryn shields in the fluff.

I'm with you on shield nobs. That would be an awesome and fluffy option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dojo wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Dojo wrote:
Hows everyone Fareing with morkanauts? i Ordered one and im curious how much fun i can have with it after having to retire my stompa for this edition.
It shows at least some promise as long as i field some other larger units to split the anti tank fire.
Also im trying a supreme command of 5 weirdboyz for an ork smite star, 5 different weirdboyz models from across editions and from fantasy/sigmar, could be pretty cool on table.

The morkanaut is strictly worse than the gorkanaut. The gorkanaut is okay if you spam a lot of T8, but some players will cripple it on their first turn of shooting. The nauts owng shooting is useless, but their close-combat is very good, until they start degrading. But you should definately pick the gorkanaut over the morkanaut.

Also, don't write off the stompa for this edition. Right now it is so useless, that it might get a big buff or point-reduction in the codex

I thought the Mork was the for sure winner with its big KFF bubble and anti tank shooting, albeit at bs5+. They Melee the same and can protect other stuff.
What makes the gork better? just volume of shots?

Well the melee capabilities of the Gork are a bit better; more attacks. Also more shots to account for the poor BS. The trouble I've had with the Mork is that it often wounds itself (repeatedly) with all that plasma.

Shrapnelbait wrote:

I've had ten Nobs outlast 30 boys frequently.

No wonder, they cost like 50.

If you calculate the durability, they're surprisingly close to boy'z level of durability vs a lot of anti-infantry weapons with bad ap. A nob with a big choppa and an ammo runt costs like 5 boyz. Has two 4+ saves and one 6+ save (ammo runt). That's just a bit behind 5 6+ saves. However, d2 and higher ap weapons are quitedangerous for nobz. As for damage output, boyz do much more damage to 1w targets and close to identical damage to multi-wound targets. Even tough ones like vehicles. However, nobz are less numerous and thus get a concentrated punch whereas boyz are harder and not alway possible to position in a way you can maximise their damage output.

What really brings them apart is the fact that boyz are troops, thus have obsec and generate more CP. So, it's often a deiding factor. However, if you want to run nobz, fell free to do it. They are ok in footslogging lists. And they're even better than boyz in mech lists but that's a whole different story.

Zomnivore wrote:
How good would you rate nobz?

Are they just condensed boys?

Pretty much the only way to fit 30 boyz in a battlewagon... Now if battlewagons nobz wouldn't cost the same as 80 boyz

It's also worth noting that nobz with big choppas are more likely to take a high number of wounds off tough targets like vehicles, daemon princes or monstrous creatures, even though they are a lot worse than boyz (per point) against single wound targets.

I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Use your Ork models, but play using the IG codex. You'll immediately be tougher, faster, stronger, better at shooting and melee, and have the ability to table your opponent turn 1. Unless they also play IG. Then you'll get a nice fair fight.

Niiru wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Use your Ork models, but play using the IG codex. You'll immediately be tougher, faster, stronger, better at shooting and melee, and have the ability to table your opponent turn 1. Unless they also play IG. Then you'll get a nice fair fight.

That's not the right answer. I feel like a CSM player, always bemoaning my sh**** army.

Hopefully we'll get some good fixes (or patches until the codex comes out) in the Chapter Approved at the end of the year.

 MannyMcCoconut wrote:
Hopefully we'll get some good fixes (or patches until the codex comes out) in the Chapter Approved at the end of the year.

Gotta imagine Da Lucky Stik is coming back (hopefully a squad wide +1 to hit near bearer instead of just WS), and super kustom FF (one of my fav's).

 Geemoney wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Use your Ork models, but play using the IG codex. You'll immediately be tougher, faster, stronger, better at shooting and melee, and have the ability to table your opponent turn 1. Unless they also play IG. Then you'll get a nice fair fight.

That's not the right answer. I feel like a CSM player, always bemoaning my sh**** army.

CSM are currently pretty good... did they used to be bad in 7th? I'd been out of touch with things during most of 7th. Right now, Chaos is in a good place. If the Ork codex was as good as the CSM one, things would be great.

CSM was bad for a long time.

 Dojo wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Dojo wrote:
Hows everyone Fareing with morkanauts? i Ordered one and im curious how much fun i can have with it after having to retire my stompa for this edition.
It shows at least some promise as long as i field some other larger units to split the anti tank fire.
Also im trying a supreme command of 5 weirdboyz for an ork smite star, 5 different weirdboyz models from across editions and from fantasy/sigmar, could be pretty cool on table.

The morkanaut is strictly worse than the gorkanaut. The gorkanaut is okay if you spam a lot of T8, but some players will cripple it on their first turn of shooting. The nauts owng shooting is useless, but their close-combat is very good, until they start degrading. But you should definately pick the gorkanaut over the morkanaut.

Also, don't write off the stompa for this edition. Right now it is so useless, that it might get a big buff or point-reduction in the codex

I thought the Mork was the for sure winner with its big KFF bubble and anti tank shooting, albeit at bs5+. They Melee the same and can protect other stuff.
What makes the gork better? just volume of shots?

The gorkanaut has 50% higher damage output in melee. 18 attacks vs 12. And you field it to do damage in melee and to deploy with a couple of characters. Neither the gork nor the mork has any shooting worth mentioning, but of the two the morks shooting is worse, often dealing as much damage to the mork as to the enemy. And the gork has a skorcha which can hit something when advancing.

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Could you post your list and mission types you're playing. I keep hearing that orks lose most of the time in classic dawn of war missions where only the last turn matters. And the first suggestion is to simply play maelstorm missions. It's a good start. The army books are not balanced around dawn of war anymore.

Orks can't really win highly competitive games unless the opponent doesn't have much experience or the ork player has a huge amount of luck on his side. IMHO they're absolutely terrible now, they were much better in 7th edition. Now they're extremely dull and boring to play since they just have one decent (and not even that good) built. I've almost stopped playing them in favor of my other armies, I really hope the codex will fix them, but since there are so many issues to fix I think we would probably wait for 9th edition to get viable orks.

Blackie... youre depressing me. We dont even have a codex yet...

Would like to point out that horde orks have placed extremely well in 8-th competitive tourneys. Scoring points is a thing. And mellee hordes are pretty good at it. You can't really outlast a defensive shooty opponent but killing is not the main requirement to winning games.

I've lost 120 boyz protected by KFF and Mad Dok in two turns against an Emperor's Children (slaneshi CSM) player without my opponent breaking a sweat. He was using the noise marine stratagem and warptimed daemonettes with daemon prince and herald buff plus some mixed CSM heavy support.
Not exactly super-secret tech.

So I can see how someone bringing an actual competitive list might do better.

Personally, I'm currently building a DG army - because green is da best and I'm sick and tired of having no shooting units to back up my assault units.

Yes, but we are forced to bring green tides which I really can't stand. I'd rather stop playing orks and wait for the codex than playing the green tide once again

Luckily in my area there are some fluffy players so I can bring fun ork lists with the units I like, that are 75% of the codex at least, but against a TAC player I won't bring my orks anymore until the codex is out.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
simple solution, prove your point. Find me some big tournaments from 5th - 6th with tons of lootas.

Moving goalposts again, are we? Weren't you just rambling about 4th and 5th in your last post?

I'll find you a bunch of tournaments with lootaz, if you find me a single one where green tide or trukk rush did well.

Didn't mean to move the goal posts, 4th - 6th then.

And when was Green tide a top tournament list for orkz? 4th edition they did well. They also did well with speed freakz and Kanz. But I don't remember any top lists having 30 lootas as you said they did.

Attack squigs should go first in every combat!

 koooaei wrote:

 Geemoney wrote:
I just had another game where my orks get shot to pieces and I can't do anything about it. This time assassins killed my support characters, so now I guess I don't get to have saves anymore...

Sometimes it feels like it is all I can do just to kill a couple models before I get tabled. 8th edition was supposed to fix things, but it is almost worse, because we lost the couple of broken things we used to have.

In my local meta I can't but 100+ boyz on the table and expect them to survive; for even two turns even with KFF and a painboy. If I mek up the boyz get out and probably kill something, but then immediately die in the shooting phase. I don't know how to fix this....

Could you post your list and mission types you're playing. I keep hearing that orks lose most of the time in classic dawn of war missions where only the last turn matters. And the first suggestion is to simply play maelstorm missions. It's a good start. The army books are not balanced around dawn of war anymore.

I am 0-2 with this list, I was tabled once, lost on points the other time (both maelstrom games). Like I said before hordes of boyz get mowed down in a couple turn in my meta; and I never have enough to win assaults. I worry if I get into a bigger meta with the list, I will not be able to deal with hordes.

Is it just me or do killbursta/killblastas look awesome for the price, I really wanna run 3 in a 2000 pt list

BAN wrote:
Is it just me or do killbursta/killblastas look awesome for the price, I really wanna run 3 in a 2000 pt list

They are decent, but I wouldnt call them the saving grace of the dex. Giga shoota is pretty bad so that leaves you with the kannon which is decent. I really fell that the Damage should have been higher, DD6 over D2 would have been nicer. I think the kill tank will get better if and when the cost of big shootas and rokkits drop cause right now they are way too expensive, Twin big shoota is almost as much as a ass cannon.

Would probably put nobz or kommandos in them and run them with stormboyz and jumping boyz.