Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

One idea for the trukk boyz debate. Simply by increasing its transport capacity would make it a bit more playable. Since it pops up quite easily, you would not waste it on anything else but plain boyz or maybe nobz. 20 would be fine, the model is large enough for that.

And no offense, I was also off topic, but codex wishlisting would worth a separate thread as it is quite hard to filter out the tactics part from this one sometimes. Now it is more like a general ork chat thread, which is fine as there aren't too many left anywhere, but currently the original purpose is hard to fullfill. But I am down with the waaagh anyways...

Shrapnelbait wrote:
So, here's a solution that never seemed to come up in the discussion of PKs, what if they were given a flat 3 damage instead of D3? That way, the 1 or 2 hits that a boyz boss nob gets would actually be a significant threat against vehicles but not infantry. You still wouldn't see them spammed all over the place, but a unit of Nobz with 2 or 3 of them could put a serious dent in something, or arming Tankbustas with hammers and a PK would make them a viable kamikaze attack. Also they would be comparable to sawz in that you could pick better damage or better AP, depending on what you are going against.

Addmitidly, both sawz and PKs need a point reduction still, but with 3 damage, the PK might not have to be reduced to spamming levels.

That's pretty much the same as giving them D6 damage

 Jidmah wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
So, here's a solution that never seemed to come up in the discussion of PKs, what if they were given a flat 3 damage instead of D3? That way, the 1 or 2 hits that a boyz boss nob gets would actually be a significant threat against vehicles but not infantry. You still wouldn't see them spammed all over the place, but a unit of Nobz with 2 or 3 of them could put a serious dent in something, or arming Tankbustas with hammers and a PK would make them a viable kamikaze attack. Also they would be comparable to sawz in that you could pick better damage or better AP, depending on what you are going against.

Addmitidly, both sawz and PKs need a point reduction still, but with 3 damage, the PK might not have to be reduced to spamming levels.

That's pretty much the same as giving them D6 damage

D6 average is 3.5, 3 flat is 3. It matters because Missile Launchers/Lascannons can chunk vehicles, where-as ork rokkits can't get lucky; you need 4 Ork Rokkits to destroy even the lowliest transport, versus 2 high-rolling d6 weapons to destroy one as another faction. That's before adding in the Ballistic Skill factor... - Vehicle wounds aren't designed to be divisible by 3, which is a detriment to us. D6 damage = 33% chance to do 1-2 damage, 17% chance to do equal damage, and 50% chance to do up to double damage; 66% of the time they're as good, if not better, than our weapons.

Orks should have the d6 damage rockets, and other factions should have the 3 flat - Orks are the "random" army, plus it fits fluffwise; some missiles are ultra killy, while others are duds. Other factions have reliable shooting, we don't. Just make the variance that much more of a factor. Let us be the ones to get lucky.

That all said...

I really like the idea of PK's being the melee version of Rokkits. I'm not sure how the math really works out for PKs, but 3 flat damage would go a LONG way in making them more viable.

rokkits are ap2 though. So, it's a give or take. And pks are historically identical to power fists.

How about having the klaw/saw fill both spam and elite rolls. Keep klaws as they are but make them 14pt. Make saws 21pt but give them D3+1 dmg.

A flat 3 damage could be acceptable, since D3 means an average of 2, so they would become more reliable but not better than lascannons.

The killsaws should be AP-4 damage 3 or D6, they currently have damage 2 which is quite silly since it's the same as big choppas.

I don't like the D6 damage on rokkits, I'd prefer to field 30 of them without investing 1/3 of the list.

 Blackie wrote:
A flat 3 damage could be acceptable, since D3 means an average of 2, so they would become more reliable but not better than lascannons.

The killsaws should be AP-4 damage 3 or D6, they currently have damage 2 which is quite silly since it's the same as big choppas.

I don't like the D6 damage on rokkits, I'd prefer to field 30 of them without investing 1/3 of the list.

It's not realistic. They WILL be like the power fist and the chainfist. All that can differ is point cost. Which will be higher than what marines have because ork nobz are better than marine veterans in mellee. A ~15pts klaw will allready be good enough to take on nobz in boy squads and will be an auto-include for warbosses. Unless a big choppa becomes even cheaper than it is now. But 9 pts for a s+2 ap1 d2 weapon on platforms with 3+ attacks hitting of 3 or better is allready a bargain.

fe40k wrote:
D6 average is 3.5, 3 flat is 3. It matters because Missile Launchers/Lascannons can chunk vehicles, where-as ork rokkits can't get lucky; you need 4 Ork Rokkits to destroy even the lowliest transport, versus 2 high-rolling d6 weapons to destroy one as another faction. That's before adding in the Ballistic Skill factor... - Vehicle wounds aren't designed to be divisible by 3, which is a detriment to us. D6 damage = 33% chance to do 1-2 damage, 17% chance to do equal damage, and 50% chance to do up to double damage; 66% of the time they're as good, if not better, than our weapons.

We were talking about PKs though. Of course D6 is slightly better than flat 3 damage, but behind every PK there is a mob of boyz who also add some wounds to any vehicle. Whether it's d6 damage or flat 3, the PK would suddenly become dangerous to vehicles, which it currently is not unless backed by the statline of a warboss.

Orks should have the d6 damage rockets, and other factions should have the 3 flat - Orks are the "random" army, plus it fits fluffwise; some missiles are ultra killy, while others are duds. Other factions have reliable shooting, we don't. Just make the variance that much more of a factor. Let us be the ones to get lucky.

Random is not good. It never was. Most ork rokkits will only hit once or twice in the entire game, that's also plenty of random for models that cost up to 40 points per rokkit fired. If you make damage random, those few hits are suspect to do little to no damage again. Changing rokkits to d6 would only benefit spammed rokkits in tank bustaz and boyz mobs, all models whose main purpose is to fire one or two rokkits (kanz, koptaz, buggies) would just be a waste of points because the risk of them failing would be much higher.

Any ork shooting is already highly unreliable. Making the damage random as well would only serve to make it more unreliable. Things that are too unreliable will simply not see play outside of very casual games. Best example for this would be the bubblechucka. While it has the potential to do massive damage to it's targets, it has the same potential to do nothing at all.

I really like the idea of PK's being the melee version of Rokkits. I'm not sure how the math really works out for PKs, but 3 flat damage would go a LONG way in making them more viable.

PKs have the advantage attacking more often and hitting more reliably. Therefore in their case d6 damage would actually work the way you described previously. You are pretty likely to get two hits even without any buffs on the nob, which in turn means that the damage is also more reliable because more dice are being rolled.

15 point klaws would do wonders for Meganobz. I would love if they also got rid of the -1 to hit. On the other hand, if killsaws remain at 28/38 I expect a lot of people will need to cut and glue a lot of weapons around.

Another benefit of a cheaper klaw is that it makes painboyz less expensive. A 15 point klaw could give us 55 point painboyz. Not bad. Or even better, they could just give painboyz the option of a choppa.

 koooaei wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
A flat 3 damage could be acceptable, since D3 means an average of 2, so they would become more reliable but not better than lascannons.

The killsaws should be AP-4 damage 3 or D6, they currently have damage 2 which is quite silly since it's the same as big choppas.

I don't like the D6 damage on rokkits, I'd prefer to field 30 of them without investing 1/3 of the list.

It's not realistic. They WILL be like the power fist and the chainfist. All that can differ is point cost. Which will be higher than what marines have because ork nobz are better than marine veterans in mellee. A ~15pts klaw will allready be good enough to take on nobz in boy squads and will be an auto-include for warbosses. Unless a big choppa becomes even cheaper than it is now. But 9 pts for a s+2 ap1 d2 weapon on platforms with 3+ attacks hitting of 3 or better is allready a bargain.

But SM also have thunder hammers, so we may have a compromise between thunder hammers, power fists and chain fists.

I'd like a 15 points pk even with its current profile, it's probably what I think it should be fair. I've always disliked the concept of boyz being ablative wounds for the pk, so I don't want a super effective pk, but not even a useless one Reducing its cost drastically from 25 to 15 points will be the most effective and fair solution, and that would be true for the majority of ork units.

Alternatively a better one but not that cheap.

 Blackie wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
A flat 3 damage could be acceptable, since D3 means an average of 2, so they would become more reliable but not better than lascannons.

The killsaws should be AP-4 damage 3 or D6, they currently have damage 2 which is quite silly since it's the same as big choppas.

I don't like the D6 damage on rokkits, I'd prefer to field 30 of them without investing 1/3 of the list.

It's not realistic. They WILL be like the power fist and the chainfist. All that can differ is point cost. Which will be higher than what marines have because ork nobz are better than marine veterans in mellee. A ~15pts klaw will allready be good enough to take on nobz in boy squads and will be an auto-include for warbosses. Unless a big choppa becomes even cheaper than it is now. But 9 pts for a s+2 ap1 d2 weapon on platforms with 3+ attacks hitting of 3 or better is allready a bargain.

I've always disliked the concept of boyz being ablative wounds for the pk, so I don't want a super effective pk, but not even a useless one Reducing its cost drastically from 25 to 15 points will be the most effective and fair solution, and that would be true for the majority of ork units.

I agree, but on the other hand: Boyz being ablative wounds for the klaw is one of the things that made trukk-lists viable.

pismakron wrote:


I agree, but on the other hand: Boyz being ablative wounds for the klaw is one of the things that made trukk-lists viable.

True, but also their price since trukks were 35 points. If we can have a unit of trukk boyz with a cheaper trukk and a cheaper pk I think they could work again. I mean a 110 points (60+15+35) unit including the transport may worth it, even if the pk is not the mandatory tool that used to be, a 167 points one certainly don't.

 Blackie wrote:

My ideal concept about orks is that all their units cost half the SM equivalent. Like boyz compared to tacticals. Meganobz shouldn't be a deathstar but you could throw 10-15 of them in a 2000 points lists without investing tons of points, they should be actually half the points of terminators. Make them 30 points each and the trukk 40, now they're worthy again, even if pk are not as deadly as they were in 7th edition. That's the way to spam pks: in boyz/stormboyz units, in nobz/meganobz units, maybe in a biker squad, 1-2 warbosses, walkers, etc.... And don't forget ranged weapons, pks shouldn't be the entire anti tank in the list, you should field artillery, lootas, rokkits. I'm ok with all the current weapons profiles (witht he exception of the KMK which should be AP-4 and/or damage D6) but not their costs, you should be able to take 30-40 rokkits instead of 20, more lootas, more artillery, twice the kans, more bikes, etc...

But with the current points cost the army is unbalanced. I'd like an horde army with not only boyz.

No auto takes, like super pks, but a whole codex of cheap units that can be taken in huge numbers, none of them particularly killy. That's how orks should work IMHO.

I understand your point, and see where you're coming from.
However, there are three problems with that view:
1) That's not how orks have ever been. Big orks have always been tougher and deadlier in combat than space marines. Humanities super-soldiers were never stronger than a regular ork, just better armored and more agile, allowing them to kill multiple orks before getting overwhelmed by hordes of boyz. Whenever a high-ranking marine would duel a nob, warboss or even warlord, a single hit from that ork would usually cripple or kill him. There are stories off nobz ripping off the top of chimeras with their klaw and then shooting the guardsmen inside. Nothing in the backround talks about how a nob took the entire battle to kill a single rhino or a komissar just shrugging off getting crushed by a powerklaw. Ork boyz and to that exentent, lootaz, tank bustaz, burnaz and all other units with boyz profiles are quantity before quality. Nobz and warbosses have always been the few orks that are much stronger than all others and have nothing to fear from anyone else. PKs and killsaws are only available to those few elite orks that are not available in huge numbers, both in fluff and on the tabletop.
2) Spamming PKs doesn't work on the tabletop. There is pretty much one PK per mob, plus one on almost every character. Nobz mobz and MANz can take more, but they also get expensive fast. You currently need around five PKs to reliable kill an average transport vehicle like a chimera, a trukk or a rhino. If you really need to take out some vehicle or monster, you have to bring half your army to that thing you need to kill. Considering how easy orks are to kill, you might not even have that much of your army left by turn 3, rendering you unable to even kill a single LRBT in combat.
3) The models are way to expensive to spam. 15 MANz are 250€ - for that kind of money you can build a 1500 point death guard army with everything but Mortarion. If they sell boxes of 3 MANz for 49€ they better do something.

I think your way of playing the army should be viable. It kind of is, you can spam big choppa nobz right now and expect them to kill most models in combat. However, nobz (and to the same extend, meks) have never been about spam, not in fluff nor in the game. Therefore, their close combat equipment should be top tier, not bottom.

 Blackie wrote:

pismakron wrote:


I agree, but on the other hand: Boyz being ablative wounds for the klaw is one of the things that made trukk-lists viable.

True, but also their price since trukks were 35 points. If we can have a unit of trukk boyz with a cheaper trukk and a cheaper pk I think they could work again. I mean a 110 points (60+15+35) unit including the transport may worth it, even if the pk is not the mandatory tool that used to be, a 167 points one certainly don't.

Maybe a cheaper version of trukk that is even more fragile/slow, so you want to put a throw away unit like 12 boys inside? Trukk rush viable again!

I really hope they'll give something more fun to trukks than a "reduce damage to 1 on a roll of 6". That comes very rarely into play and is just... Boring. It'd be cool if they brought a simplified oldschool table of ramshackle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

...
2) Spamming PKs doesn't work on the tabletop. There is pretty much one PK per mob, plus one on almost every character. Nobz mobz and MANz can take more, but they also get expensive fast. You currently need around five PKs to reliable kill an average transport vehicle like a chimera, a trukk or a rhino. If you really need to take out some vehicle or monster, you have to bring half your army to that thing you need to kill. Considering how easy orks are to kill, you might not even have that much of your army left by turn 3, rendering you unable to even kill a single LRBT in combat.
...

I think your way of playing the army should be viable. It kind of is, you can spam big choppa nobz right now and expect them to kill most models in combat. However, nobz (and to the same extend, meks) have never been about spam, not in fluff nor in the game. Therefore, their close combat equipment should be top tier, not bottom.

I think this hits the nail on it's head. Also yeah, at some point quantity over quality starts being very taxing for your IRL money and game time, since moving all those models is a hassle

I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but has anyone tried out the blitz boma using more than 1? It seems on paper to be a good anti-horde unit if you take multiples of them. I was thinking about 3 of them and dropping 30d6 needing 4+ on large infantry squads to kill them with mortal wounds.

 Glitcha wrote:
I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but has anyone tried out the blitz boma using more than 1? It seems on paper to be a good anti-horde unit if you take multiples of them. I was thinking about 3 of them and dropping 30d6 needing 4+ on large infantry squads to kill them with mortal wounds.

It maxes out at 10 mortal wounds.

mhalko1 wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but has anyone tried out the blitz boma using more than 1? It seems on paper to be a good anti-horde unit if you take multiples of them. I was thinking about 3 of them and dropping 30d6 needing 4+ on large infantry squads to kill them with mortal wounds.

It maxes out at 10 mortal wounds.

10 dice actually, not wounds. I've also found the Burna Bommer to be better due to Explosive Demise and the extra BS4 big shoota. Bombing doesn't do a lot to vehicles, monsters or bikes anyways, so the limitation to infantry rarely matters. Just stay away from skorcha missiles.

 Jidmah wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but has anyone tried out the blitz boma using more than 1? It seems on paper to be a good anti-horde unit if you take multiples of them. I was thinking about 3 of them and dropping 30d6 needing 4+ on large infantry squads to kill them with mortal wounds.

It maxes out at 10 mortal wounds.

10 dice actually, not wounds. I've also found the Burna Bommer to be better due to Explosive Demise and the extra BS4 big shoota. Bombing doesn't do a lot to vehicles, monsters or bikes anyways, so the limitation to infantry rarely matters. Just stay away from skorcha missiles.

I mean 10 dice can only inflict 10 mortal wounds. I get that wording is important in most cases. They are the same for this.

Hi!

I am a bit confused about the point calculation of Ghazghkull.

The Index says he is 215.
However, he gets two items, a twin big shoota and a kustom klaw. By rule I need to add the point cost of these items to his base cost. According to the table at the end of the index the shoota is 14 points, but the cost of the klaw is not listed anywhere (which is weird as it is included in the wargear list on the next page, but not in the point cost table).
So the cost of Ghaz should be at least 229.

I also checked some competitive army lists in the army compendium of Blood of Kittens (http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/).
Some top lists eg. a 1st overall on West Coast GT used him on 215 points. (eg: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Jeff-Everitt-1st-Overall-Wet-Coast-GT-2017.pdf)
Battlescribe lists him on 215 as well.

Do I get something wrong here?
Not a big deal, but would be good to know...

Thx.

grnsknz wrote:
Hi!

I am a bit confused about the point calculation of Ghazghkull.

The Index says he is 215.
However, he gets two items, a twin big shoota and a kustom klaw. By rule I need to add the point cost of these items to his base cost. According to the table at the end of the index the shoota is 14 points, but the cost of the klaw is not listed anywhere (which is weird as it is included in the wargear list on the next page, but not in the point cost table).
So the cost of Ghaz should be at least 229.

I also checked some competitive army lists in the army compendium of Blood of Kittens (http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/).
Some top lists eg. a 1st overall on West Coast GT used him on 215 points. (eg: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Jeff-Everitt-1st-Overall-Wet-Coast-GT-2017.pdf)
Battlescribe lists him on 215 as well.

Do I get something wrong here?
Not a big deal, but would be good to know...

Thx.

No, as a Unique character, his listing falls under the box that says point costs included. Therefore he is 215 points. IIRC this should be under the YMDC thread.

Got it, thanks, my bad.
The only thing still a mistery is how to delete my post.

 Jidmah wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but has anyone tried out the blitz boma using more than 1? It seems on paper to be a good anti-horde unit if you take multiples of them. I was thinking about 3 of them and dropping 30d6 needing 4+ on large infantry squads to kill them with mortal wounds.

It maxes out at 10 mortal wounds.

10 dice actually, not wounds. I've also found the Burna Bommer to be better due to Explosive Demise and the extra BS4 big shoota. Bombing doesn't do a lot to vehicles, monsters or bikes anyways, so the limitation to infantry rarely matters. Just stay away from skorcha missiles.

This is why our bommas are bad - they can't do their one job, which is to counter large infantry squads.

I mean, it's a one use bomb; even if it had a 4+ up for each model in the squad, that wouldn't be broken - it'd just be viable.

Killing 15 Conscripts = 45 points
Killing 15 Boyz = 90 points
Killing 15 Gaunts = 60 points
Killing 10 Guardians = 80 points
Dropping one bomb, that maxes out at 10 dice, with a 4+ chance to wound; when the chaff units it's trying to kill have 30 model squad sizes = priceless... 136 points.

Now, I didn't realize the Burna-Bomma has two Burna Bombs; that's actually not too bad. That said, it still has to fly over the enemy squad (which positioning can be entirely negated depending on spacings), and roll all the dice.

Blitza-Bommas on the other hand... every unit and their mother are "deploy as a group, operates as one"; so it'll only ever hit one model regardless - and when it does, it has a 3 4+ odds to do a mortal wound. Even if you could pass over a 3-group of Leman Russ, that's 9 4+ chances... 4-5 mortal wounds on average - not bad, but not spectacular either; especially for the price and difficulty in achieving.

Got it, thanks, my bad.
The only thing still a mistery is how to delete my post.

You can't - embrace it; you're not the only one whos made a fethup (I made one much worse on a thread about Shoota boyz the other day ). It's just life.

(Also, you can report the post, and try to get the mods to delete it. )

 Jidmah wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but has anyone tried out the blitz boma using more than 1? It seems on paper to be a good anti-horde unit if you take multiples of them. I was thinking about 3 of them and dropping 30d6 needing 4+ on large infantry squads to kill them with mortal wounds.

It maxes out at 10 mortal wounds.

10 dice actually, not wounds. I've also found the Burna Bommer to be better due to Explosive Demise and the extra BS4 big shoota. Bombing doesn't do a lot to vehicles, monsters or bikes anyways, so the limitation to infantry rarely matters. Just stay away from skorcha missiles.

Sad that out "best" plane is good because it blows up.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but has anyone tried out the blitz boma using more than 1? It seems on paper to be a good anti-horde unit if you take multiples of them. I was thinking about 3 of them and dropping 30d6 needing 4+ on large infantry squads to kill them with mortal wounds.

It maxes out at 10 mortal wounds.

10 dice actually, not wounds. I've also found the Burna Bommer to be better due to Explosive Demise and the extra BS4 big shoota. Bombing doesn't do a lot to vehicles, monsters or bikes anyways, so the limitation to infantry rarely matters. Just stay away from skorcha missiles.

Sad that out "best" plane is good because it blows up.

Sad...but kinda orky. Now we just need better 'grot-guided' bombs

 JawRippa wrote:
Maybe a cheaper version of trukk that is even more fragile/slow, so you want to put a throw away unit like 12 boys inside? Trukk rush viable again!

This probably wouldn't actually be very good, but I thought it would be fun if Ork vehicles worked kind of like the Kharadron Overlords vehicles where you could keep cramming in more models at a penalty to speed. It would be funny to see 20 boyz hanging off of a trukk which was struggling along at 4+d6" per turn.

I've been thinking, could trukk spam work as a way to deliver warbosses? Either with boyz or inexpensive nobs along in the trukk so that all the capacity doesn't go to waste and to provide a meat shield if the trukk gets blown up and they end up on foot. A warboss with a klaw or big choppa is pretty decent, but I'm not sure if it's good enough at melee to justify its points. (To clarify I think that a warboss is worth its points as a buffing character for large footslogging hordes, but I'm not sure if it is worth it when paired with a single small unit of boyz or nobz.)


I think rokkits will probably get cheaper and tankbustas will get some sort of stratagem that makes them better once our codex comes out. One thing that I think would be cool, but unlikely, is if they made rokkits Assault d3, Damage 2, AP -2. Fluff wise this would represent a small but powerful explosion. The multiple attacks would help a lot with making rokkits worthwhile on non-tankbusta models.

I think that shorter range but more attacks is a good model for a lot of Ork weapons. Like, the Killkannon is supposed to be an Ork Battle Kannon. I think keeping the S7 and 24" range is fine, but it should be Heavy 2d6. I think this makes sense fluff-wise as it could represent the orks firing massively oversized projectiles at the cost of range and accuracy. (When the reduced transport capacity is factored in I think the Killkannon might be overcosted even with 2d6 attacks.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shrapnelbait wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Sad that out "best" plane is good because it blows up.

Sad...but kinda orky. Now we just need better 'grot-guided' bombs

I wish that all ork vehicles exploded more often. It would be super orky, and considering how often ork vehicles are going to be right up in the enemy's face it would probably be to our advantage most of the time. I'd like it if ork vehicles that blow up on a 6+ currently (similar to most other races chance of exploding) blew up on a 5+ instead, and many vehicles that currently don't explode like warbuggies would blow up on a 6+. Skorchas should blow up on a 4+ like Burna Bommers.

Giving Ramshackle to all vehicles would be a nice and fluffy bonus too.

Well-trained gretchin bomb-guiders.

fe40k wrote:
This is why our bommas are bad - they can't do their one job, which is to counter large infantry squads.

I mean, it's a one use bomb; even if it had a 4+ up for each model in the squad, that wouldn't be broken - it'd just be viable.

Killing 15 Conscripts = 45 points
Killing 15 Boyz = 90 points
Killing 15 Gaunts = 60 points
Killing 10 Guardians = 80 points
Dropping one bomb, that maxes out at 10 dice, with a 4+ chance to wound; when the chaff units it's trying to kill have 30 model squad sizes = priceless... 136 points.

Well, you just arbitrarily defined that it should be good at taking out horde units though. They are pretty awesome when it comes to killing marines, eldar rangers or aspect warriors, tau or even stuff like genestealers, lootaz or tank bustaz.

They are great at killing elite infantry with one wound, not at killing hordes.

Now, I didn't realize the Burna-Bomma has two Burna Bombs; that's actually not too bad. That said, it still has to fly over the enemy squad (which positioning can be entirely negated depending on spacings), and roll all the dice.

Just like all bombs in the game. The plane also has 50" movement, so preventing it from flying over units is usually impossible. The only way would be to deploy large amount of bubble wrap behind their army, which would be a pretty bad idea, considering that your opponent is fighting orks...

Blitza-Bommas on the other hand... every unit and their mother are "deploy as a group, operates as one"; so it'll only ever hit one model regardless - and when it does, it has a 3 4+ odds to do a mortal wound. Even if you could pass over a 3-group of Leman Russ, that's 9 4+ chances... 4-5 mortal wounds on average - not bad, but not spectacular either; especially for the price and difficulty in achieving.

Nope. Leman russes also have the vehicle squadron rule, so you can only bomb as single one for 1.5 mortal wounds. The only time you will get more than 3 dice out of bombing a vehicles or monsters are kanz, koptaz, eldar war walkers, sentinels, carnifex or other similar units. Pretty much anything else that is tougher than a land speeder splits up after deployment. Which means that you pretty much never want to bomb vehicles with it, ever. Therefore there is little reason to not field the burna bommer instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I've been thinking, could trukk spam work as a way to deliver warbosses? Either with boyz or inexpensive nobs along in the trukk so that all the capacity doesn't go to waste and to provide a meat shield if the trukk gets blown up and they end up on foot. A warboss with a klaw or big choppa is pretty decent, but I'm not sure if it's good enough at melee to justify its points. (To clarify I think that a warboss is worth its points as a buffing character for large footslogging hordes, but I'm not sure if it is worth it when paired with a single small unit of boyz or nobz.)

Well, you could just put the warboss on a bike for 41 points instead of buying a trukk and have koptaz, buggies or kommandoz force the opponent to not shoot them due to character rules.

I think rokkits will probably get cheaper and tankbustas will get some sort of stratagem that makes them better once our codex comes out.

Tankbustas already are great, they just lack survivability. 4+ armor might be the right way, or a point drop on tank hammers and rokkit pistols to use them as ablative wounds might work.

One thing that I think would be cool, but unlikely, is if they made rokkits Assault d3, Damage 2, AP -2. Fluff wise this would represent a small but powerful explosion. The multiple attacks would help a lot with making rokkits worthwhile on non-tankbusta models.

I think that shorter range but more attacks is a good model for a lot of Ork weapons. Like, the Killkannon is supposed to be an Ork Battle Kannon. I think keeping the S7 and 24" range is fine, but it should be Heavy 2d6. I think this makes sense fluff-wise as it could represent the orks firing massively oversized projectiles at the cost of range and accuracy. (When the reduced transport capacity is factored in I think the Killkannon might be overcosted even with 2d6 attacks.)

I agree, d3 rokkits would especially help koptaz and buggies.

About the killkannon... I think it needs to be good enough to make building the battlewagon into a battletank configuration worthwhile. Considering that there have never been rokkit bits for the wagon, that option will probably go away. Therefore a wagon with 4x Big Shootas, Kannon/Lobba/Zzap gun and Killkannon needs to be viable. Since both LRBT and eldar fire prisms have gotten a rule that allows them to fire twice when moving slowly, I have my finger crossed for battlewagons getting the same rule, together with your proposed change to the killkannon a dakkawagon would finally be scary on the battlefield. Plus they look awesome.

DId you know that the quad gun from the AGD fits into battlewagon turret holes? Most awesome big shootas ever.

I wish that all ork vehicles exploded more often. It would be super orky, and considering how often ork vehicles are going to be right up in the enemy's face it would probably be to our advantage most of the time. I'd like it if ork vehicles that blow up on a 6+ currently (similar to most other races chance of exploding) blew up on a 5+ instead, and many vehicles that currently don't explode like warbuggies would blow up on a 6+. Skorchas should blow up on a 4+ like Burna Bommers.

Death Guard have a stratagem that makes their vehicle explode for 1 CP. I'd like to have one of those.

 Jidmah wrote:

Tankbustas already are great, they just lack survivability. 4+ armor might be the right way, or a point drop on tank hammers and rokkit pistols to use them as ablative wounds might work.

I think tankbustas just need one thing: a 35-40 points trukk. Maybe a 2 points cheaper rokkit launcha.

 Jidmah wrote:

About the killkannon... I think it needs to be good enough to make building the battlewagon into a battletank configuration worthwhile. Considering that there have never been rokkit bits for the wagon, that option will probably go away. Therefore a wagon with 4x Big Shootas, Kannon/Lobba/Zzap gun and Killkannon needs to be viable. Since both LRBT and eldar fire prisms have gotten a rule that allows them to fire twice when moving slowly, I have my finger crossed for battlewagons getting the same rule, together with your proposed change to the killkannon a dakkawagon would finally be scary on the battlefield. Plus they look awesome.

The killkannon should be completly re-written, it's currently almost as deadly as lootas guns or big choppas. For 30ish points (and mounted on BS5+ vehicles) it should be something like 2D6 shots S10 Ap-3 Damage 3 (or D6) range 36'' (or even better). A looted tank with such a kill kannon and up to 3 smaller gunz (rokkits, shootas, skorchas), with no transport capacity, for approx 90-100 points it's something we lack completely. I'd like some sort of cheap leman russ than a gun wagon with tons of weapons. Mostly because the looted wagon I modeled just has a kill kannon and a big shoota

I do hope that Burnas will get something from new codex. It is sad that they used burnas in sneak peak to show how awesome flamers are going to be only to make burna D3 flamer which is just lame compared to usual D6 and hurts other ork units that have burna as an option. Rolling D3 for entire squad makes it compete for CP in the same way as lootas.
Fluffwise burnas can cut vehicle hulls, yet burnaboys are not very effective against those up close.

At least it deserves to be 1+D3 hits. Making a d3 roll for every burnaboy or at least for every 5 burnaboys in a squad would also be at making it more viable.
Pyromaniac could be something like "for every 5 models killed by ranged attacks of this squad in previous turn, add +1 when determining ammount of hits to a maximum of 6 in total). They go bonkers when they see `umies do the burny dance.

They should remove Burnas, Tankbustas and Lootas as separate units, and replace them with an elite-slot called Dakka Boyz or something like that:

Unit size is 5-20

Ordinary boy statline and 6 points per model

They all come with shootas as default

Every boy can replace his shoota with either a burna, big shoota, rokkit launcha or deffgun

The prices should be something like:

Burna: 4 points

Big Shoota: 4 points

Rokkit Launcha: 8 points

Deffgun: 10 points

Special ability:

Grot target practice: In the shooting phase this unit can target any enemy unit that is closer than 1" to friendly gretchins, and when doing so it can use its WS in place of its BS when rolling to hit. Every miss causes a mortal wound on the unit of friendly gretchin

That way you could field them on foot with some ablative wounds, or you could kit them all out for use in a transport. You could also boost their accuracy at the cost of sacrificing some grots.