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 rvd1ofakind wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.

Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.

So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?

Sure, making Gretchin viable would be nice. But Orks has some of the best troops in the game, better than both Admech or Tyranids. The troops slot is not the problem. It is everything else that is lacking (with a few exceptions) .

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.

Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.

So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?

Sure, making Gretchin viable would be nice. But Orks has some of the best troops in the game, better than both Admech or Tyranids. The troops slot is not the problem. It is everything else that is lacking (with a few exceptions) .

I feel that to make Gretchin more viable, they'd need a points drop to 2 ppm. OR they make them useful in doing something that supplements the boyz/the army. Presuming that they don't add weapon options (such as the much demanded grot snipa rifles), making them the sticky anvil to the boyz' hammer would be cool, like giving them a special rule where non-vehicle/monster enemy units in combat with gretchin cannot fall back, fluffwise being that the sheer number of grotz drag their opponents down for boyz to smack em up good. This makes it so that the typical fall back and shoot tactic for many shooty armies in dealing with boyz could be countered and grotz have an actual purpose in combat.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

KillerOfMany wrote:
Transports - Been running G - Squig/BW with a single truck, mostly for elite protection, they are also great for reducing the number of drops you have for any single units char. or small units. But being so expensive in points Taking < 500 pts in a 2k has been feeling about right...

Which elites do you usually run?

base HQ of KFF big mek on bike for the transports, odd boy in truck, a little mek since i run KMK's, waagghh!! banner nob, maby a pain boy if I have a Warboss or Gazkull in there, fill the rest with kill saw mega nobs or just BC nobs with ammo runts (I agree with the D3 on power klaws being lack luster)... anything other than that usually doesn't make its points back, especially if you roll the 1 VP for every unit killed missions ect. (6 KMK = 252 points for 12 VP WHAT>!!?!?!?)

- On the note of elite/troop & heavy infantry units being better, ive always liked the idea a mobs of 30 boys; but you can equip lets say up to 15 of them (same type per unit) with your choice of weapons/special rules and or/upgrade to nobs, ect. This give the unit blast wounds and makes tankbustas/lootas/nobs/burnas/big shootas/flash gits, all cheaper. Give each weapon a point value rather than just "some cheep model with gun or free gun with costly model" too odd...

For transports...pretty much the G.Squiggoth, everything else is horrendously over priced and not worth taking. Add to that the fact that I can purchase a Weirdboy for cheaper then a Trukk and guarantee a delivery of at least 30 Boyz a turn anywhere on the map I want and....whats the point?

To even add more to that, Kommandos are 9pts a pop (3pts more then a regular Boy) 12 Boyz can ride in a Trukk which has to take at least a Big shoota which puts the actual price of the trukk at 82pts/12 = 6.8pts per boy inside. So those 12 boyz actually cost 12.8 a pop not 6. And at such low numbers you won't benefit as much from Mob rule and you won't get the +1 attack for 20+ models. So for 9pts a pop I can again deliver 5-15 Kommandos anywhere on the table, guaranteed, on any turn I want. They also come with 2 Free Burnas. And THAT is why Kommandos are better then Trukk Boyz by a metric Fethload.

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.

Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.

So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?

Sure, making Gretchin viable would be nice. But Orks has some of the best troops in the game, better than both Admech or Tyranids. The troops slot is not the problem. It is everything else that is lacking (with a few exceptions) .

Oh I'm not saying boyz are bad. I'm saying Orks should have more troops options. Right now every game vs orks is fight against 1000+ points of boyz + stuff that buffs boyz. Which gets boring after a while. The Ork starter pack right now pretty much is 7 packs of boyz + 1 start collecting + 3-6 weirdboyz + warleader.
Gretchins will probably get an ability that makes them more useful outside of combat.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.

Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.

So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?

Any toughness 2 model with a laspistol and 7+ armor should be 2 points, if not 1.

The main problem with boyz is that if you're not taking 30 per unit - you're doing it wrong. So every batallion is a huge investment troops wise.

I'd like cheaper Grots and I'd love more options for them. Something I've found is effective is using them as retreating wall of bubble-wrap, moving them out of combat for a rounds of shooting.
I'm not a huge fan of the Boy meta, ideally I'd like to be using fewer models to cut down my session-time (moving/counting).

I've bought myself some Lootas recently, does anyone have any thoughts as to how they compare to fully-buffed (Badrukk+AmmoRuntz+DakkaDakka) Flash-Gitz?
And with the recent cost changes does anyone think Burna-Boyz have a place (As the Loota-kit has both), both as a unit and when used in Kommando units?

Cheers!

Yeah, I also have lootas/burnas atm from the box. Not sure what to do with them yet.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yeah, I also have lootas/burnas atm from the box. Not sure what to do with them yet.

put them back in the box.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yeah, I also have lootas/burnas atm from the box. Not sure what to do with them yet.

put them back in the box.

Can I just make Boyz with them :p
Or just them as whichever and say they're Boyz if they look similar enough. My local meta is very tolerant to that.

They could also just have gretchin intercept shots that target units within 3" on a 4+ or something.

Basically operation grot shield.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Any toughness 2 model with a laspistol and 7+ armor should be 2 points, if not 1.

Grots actually got 6+ armor. But yeah, they should still cost 2ppm or get some rule justifying their existence.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
The main problem with boyz is that if you're not taking 30 per unit - you're doing it wrong. So every batallion is a huge investment troops wise.

I think with the mob up stratagem you are actually wrong on this, I can easily see doing 3x30 and 3x10 for use in mobbing up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Still, I'm shocked that orks only have 1 viable troop. AdMech has a lot less models but even they have 4 troops choices(2 viable).
This makes every competitive ork list look the same(ish).
I envy Tyranids with their 5 out of 5 viable options.
Some elites should be moved to troops probably.

Tyranids and AdMech both have a codex, Orks don't. And moving elites to troops wont help. The viable elites and fast attack options we have are essentially variations of boyz. You can get boyz with camouflage, boyz with jump backs or plain boyz. Those are your options.

So what should happen to the troops slot then? Gretchins should become awesome?

Any toughness 2 model with a laspistol and 7+ armor should be 2 points, if not 1.

I disagree, I just think other models should cost more. Wounds and board presence have value regardless for statline, 30 wounds taking up a ton of space for 30 points would be broken. Especially when orks have ways to buff their durability.

Would you leave a 10 Boy unit sitting on a backfield objective? Probably not. Would you leave a 10 Gretchin unit sitting on a backfield objective? Hell yes. Sure they can easily be shot off the board but that is anti-infantry firepower not targeting your Boyz. Obviously they aren't making a significant impact on the battle but you can't really expect that from a 30pt unit. However if they score even one VP I'd say that's 30pts well spent. I think Gretchin are pretty fine as they are now.

Gretchin should be 3-5 points per model, and then they should be buffed to make them viable at that price point. The game does not benefit from 2 points per wound infantry.

10 Gretchin are amazing if you want 2 battallions or a Brigade and you need the 6th troop choice without investing many points. 10 boyz are certainly better but IMHO saving 30 points in an ork list can be signficant. Some pieces of terrain can also hide completely those grots while only give some cover to the boyz.

They're also decent in dread mobs as cheap objective holders/screeners for mek gunz.

 Weazel wrote:
Would you leave a 10 Boy unit sitting on a backfield objective? Probably not. Would you leave a 10 Gretchin unit sitting on a backfield objective? Hell yes. Sure they can easily be shot off the board but that is anti-infantry firepower not targeting your Boyz. Obviously they aren't making a significant impact on the battle but you can't really expect that from a 30pt unit. However if they score even one VP I'd say that's 30pts well spent. I think Gretchin are pretty fine as they are now.

Most people just put a kannon on that backfield objective. I agree with what you say, but it would be nice if our second troop option was good for something else than just sitting on a backfield objective or fill up required troop slots. At the same time I definitely do not want to exchange my already cumbersome army of six-point models with an even more cumbersome army of 2 or 3 point models.

 Weazel wrote:
Would you leave a 10 Boy unit sitting on a backfield objective? Probably not. Would you leave a 10 Gretchin unit sitting on a backfield objective? Hell yes. Sure they can easily be shot off the board but that is anti-infantry firepower not targeting your Boyz. Obviously they aren't making a significant impact on the battle but you can't really expect that from a 30pt unit. However if they score even one VP I'd say that's 30pts well spent. I think Gretchin are pretty fine as they are now.

A single kannon, lobba or zzap gun is a 27 point unit, has a significant impact on the game and will hold objectives better since the crew men cannot be shot unless they are the closest unit. Currently there is no competitive reason to field gretchin.

 Weazel wrote:
Would you leave a 10 Boy unit sitting on a backfield objective? Probably not. Would you leave a 10 Gretchin unit sitting on a backfield objective? Hell yes. Sure they can easily be shot off the board but that is anti-infantry firepower not targeting your Boyz. Obviously they aren't making a significant impact on the battle but you can't really expect that from a 30pt unit. However if they score even one VP I'd say that's 30pts well spent. I think Gretchin are pretty fine as they are now.

This right here is why we have arguably the worst overall codex in 7th and index in 8th (overall not the 1-2 power builds) Being complacent with crap doesn't help our army become better. On the contrary, it gives confirmation bias to GW rules writers if they ever read these forums. Grotz should serve a bigger purpose then being a cheap Slot filler or a 30pt objective holding tax unit. A price cut won't help them either, they need significantly better weapons/gear and rules. The fluff supports this to, and yet here we sit in 8th edition where the only time a unit is taken is as a tax unit or a throwaway 30pt rear objective holder.

I would love for Grots to be something like greenskin Termagants. M6" and T3. Some of the grots in the GW kit has what looks like a rifle or musket. Special rules could be made for these grot shootas. Assault 3 R24" S3 AP0?

 Jidmah wrote:
Currently there is no competitive reason to field gretchin.

I've found them very useful bubble wrapping my army from Alpha Striking combat units.
Alpha Legion Berserkers can make a first turn charge quite reliably. There will be similar for Bangles and their 3D6 charge range from deep strike.
3 units of 10 grots are cheap and fill slots, and can really shield the force. Or be Jumped into the path of enemy combat units.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Would you leave a 10 Boy unit sitting on a backfield objective? Probably not. Would you leave a 10 Gretchin unit sitting on a backfield objective? Hell yes. Sure they can easily be shot off the board but that is anti-infantry firepower not targeting your Boyz. Obviously they aren't making a significant impact on the battle but you can't really expect that from a 30pt unit. However if they score even one VP I'd say that's 30pts well spent. I think Gretchin are pretty fine as they are now.

This right here is why we have arguably the worst overall codex in 7th and index in 8th (overall not the 1-2 power builds) Being complacent with crap doesn't help our army become better. On the contrary, it gives confirmation bias to GW rules writers if they ever read these forums. Grotz should serve a bigger purpose then being a cheap Slot filler or a 30pt objective holding tax unit. A price cut won't help them either, they need significantly better weapons/gear and rules. The fluff supports this to, and yet here we sit in 8th edition where the only time a unit is taken is as a tax unit or a throwaway 30pt rear objective holder.

Have you seen chaos daemons... Index chaos daemons (baring brimstones, DPs and exalted flamers) are slow-ish footslogging melee glass cannons(who don't even hit that hard). Who thought that was a good idea. Obviously nurgle is the exception, but even he's not doing so hot.
Orks have a ton of synergy by comparison(which is why they're doing pretty well in tournaments and actual chaos daemon armies aren't there at all)

Well Kannons and the like are not Troops to begin with. Also they tend to attract heavier firepower whereas the Gretchin will probably attract the same firepower that kills Boyz. I'm not saying Gretchin are awesome but I'm not sorry that we have them available is all. Say you're 1-2 troops short of a Brigade and you've got 30-60 points left, I don't think Gretchin is the worst that could happen.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Currently there is no competitive reason to field gretchin.

I've found them very useful bubble wrapping my army from Alpha Striking combat units.
Alpha Legion Berserkers can make a first turn charge quite reliably. There will be similar for Bangles and their 3D6 charge range from deep strike.
3 units of 10 grots are cheap and fill slots, and can really shield the force. Or be Jumped into the path of enemy combat units.

Unless you are pushing back your entire army by at least 3", the zerkers can still assault your gretchin, wipe them out in a single fight and then consolidate into your boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weazel wrote:
Well Kannons and the like are not Troops to begin with.

Mostly irrelevant, since objective secured will never matter. Anything within 3" of a gretchin unit can assault and kill it.

Also they tend to attract heavier firepower whereas the Gretchin will probably attract the same firepower that kills Boyz.

Still, if the kannon dies it leaves behind two gretchin that cannot be shot at all unless someone is actively moving toward them. Regular gretchin can just be shot dead by anyone.

I'm not saying Gretchin are awesome but I'm not sorry that we have them available is all. Say you're 1-2 troops short of a Brigade and you've got 30-60 points left, I don't think Gretchin is the worst that could happen.

Kind of fabricated scenario, don't you think? Either you field 6x 30 boyz or you don't bother fielding a brigade. If you only got 30-60 points left, replace some elite or fast attack choices and get more boyz.
It's also not like there is a ton of stuff to spend those 12 CP on, considering any army in that situation would already have 7 CP.

pismakron wrote:
I would love for Grots to be something like greenskin Termagants. M6" and T3. Some of the grots in the GW kit has what looks like a rifle or musket. Special rules could be made for these grot shootas. Assault 3 R24" S3 AP0?

I like the idea of grot shootas - seems very fluffy for cowardly grots to stay well away from combat and shoot at a distance, like second-rate halfling snipers. But GW's kind of stuck with the current grot kit, which mostly has short-ranged pistol-type weapons. Tactically, how is a squishy cowardly short-ranged squad useful for anything bu meat-shields? Give them M12" and counts-as plasma guns?

What if you kept grots as they are, but gave any unit with 10 or less models the Take Cover ability, and keep the Dangerous In Large Numbers ability? That would make them tactically useful without having to change them much.

 Jidmah wrote:

I'm not saying Gretchin are awesome but I'm not sorry that we have them available is all. Say you're 1-2 troops short of a Brigade and you've got 30-60 points left, I don't think Gretchin is the worst that could happen.

Kind of fabricated scenario, don't you think? Either you field 6x 30 boyz or you don't bother fielding a brigade. If you only got 30-60 points left, replace some elite or fast attack choices and get more boyz.
It's also not like there is a ton of stuff to spend those 12 CP on, considering any army in that situation would already have 7 CP.

Not entirely true. I've found out that 180 boyz green tides are not that effective, because they're too slow. 90-120 boyz plus 45-90 kommandos and/or 30/60 stormboyz are the way to go. In this scenario gretchin may fill up 1-2 troops slots without being wasted points. In my green tide brigade I always include a min units of gretchin to have 6 troops. If you don't bother with the brigade leave gretchin on the shelf though.

In green tides you also need objective holders since the boyz should always advance and if you don't own any mek gunz those gretchin can do that job. Artillery is certainly more efficient but the models cost a lot of money and not everyone are willing to buy them or scratch build their own artillery. Gretchin are sub-optimal but not useless.

If the gretchin are purely a fodder unit then they need a point decrease, but I'd like the option to have a smaller harassment force of grots with a tad more firepower.
ForgeWorld could fill in the void with a cheap-ish conversion set of scopes, heads and barrels for the gretchin, as they do with Kammandoz. Then tag it on as a 1-4pt wargear upgrade for X grots a Unit, or preferably as their own Elite Unit with couple of special abilities and loadouts (eavy-shoota team, scoped grot-blasta, etc). Ultimately if the rules are exist I think there's plenty of products you can kit-bash to make your own special grot, though I don't know GW will see it that way, if they're thinking about the concept at all.

I tried using gretchin in a unit of 30 by using da jump on them. With their shooting bonus (surprisingly dangerous in large numbers) they weren’t that bad. Jumped in, shot like marines thn died miserably.

Decreasing their point value would result in armies with 200+ grotz because of being the cheapest wounds on the table. Nobody wants that...