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SemperMortis wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Cuz05 wrote:
Well thats the thing, boyz aren't OP, they're simply useable. Nothing in the Ork list is OP.

Hell, I didn't think the Kill Tank was OP and they put it up loads. The notion of boyz going up should be buried so deep it dies in magma.

I mean, list me troops better than boyz. I doubt the list is more than like 5 units(and that's me hedging my bets).
And exlude codex sources of power: -1 to hit from aplha legion for example. Changeling -1 to hit is fine

Without any additional buffs or anything else? Strictly in a vacuum? Hell tactical marines are better.

10 marines (Sgt and heavy Bolter) cost 140pts. That's equivalent to 20 with a Nob/BC or thereabouts.

Turn 1: 9 shots 6 hits, 3 wounds and 2.5 dead Orkz, heavy bolted = 3 shots 2 hits and 1.33 dead Orkz.

Orkz turn: move, advance, do nothing

Turn 2: (marines are now within 12 inches and get to fire pistols AND bolters unless this changed) 27 (rapid fire and pistols) shots 18hits 9 wounds 7-8 dead Orkz. Heavy bolted kills another 1.3 make it 9 total to be fair. Morale test on Orkz, -9 morale only 7 Orkz left, role a 3 and you are down to 2 models.

Orkz turn: move 5 (7inch charge) shoot pistols 2 shots likely no casualties. Charge, overwatch. 27 shots, 4 hits and that is the end of the Ork boyz.

And those are the most common troops in the game.

I think you got the pistol rules wrong mate. When shooting its all pistols or all other weapons or one grenade.

Well thank the greenskinned godz that's not how games actually go down.

SemperMortis wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Cuz05 wrote:
Well thats the thing, boyz aren't OP, they're simply useable. Nothing in the Ork list is OP.

Hell, I didn't think the Kill Tank was OP and they put it up loads. The notion of boyz going up should be buried so deep it dies in magma.

I mean, list me troops better than boyz. I doubt the list is more than like 5 units(and that's me hedging my bets).
And exlude codex sources of power: -1 to hit from aplha legion for example. Changeling -1 to hit is fine

Without any additional buffs or anything else? Strictly in a vacuum? Hell tactical marines are better.

10 marines (Sgt and heavy Bolter) cost 140pts. That's equivalent to 20 with a Nob/BC or thereabouts.

Turn 1: 9 shots 6 hits, 3 wounds and 2.5 dead Orkz, heavy bolted = 3 shots 2 hits and 1.33 dead Orkz.

Orkz turn: move, advance, do nothing

Turn 2: (marines are now within 12 inches and get to fire pistols AND bolters unless this changed) 27 (rapid fire and pistols) shots 18hits 9 wounds 7-8 dead Orkz. Heavy bolted kills another 1.3 make it 9 total to be fair. Morale test on Orkz, -9 morale only 7 Orkz left, role a 3 and you are down to 2 models.

Orkz turn: move 5 (7inch charge) shoot pistols 2 shots likely no casualties. Charge, overwatch. 27 shots, 4 hits and that is the end of the Ork boyz.

And those are the most common troops in the game.

I do not mean in a vacuum. I just mean diregarding codex buffs.

 Blackie wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:


I use a unit of 3 bikers with no upgrades and the can do some nice screening. If they are left untouched they can charge tanks and stop them from Shooting or grab occasional objectives.

Have you tried skorcha buggies for the same role? At 54 points each they don't look that bad. They can't screen as well as the bikes since they're a single model compared to three and they may suffer from multiwounds anti tank more than bikes but they're significantly cheaper and capable of a comparable amount of damage, even with the shorter range.

I do use buggies (but with rokkits) also, but I play them in a different way than bikes. The buggies outflank and harass tanks in the rear by shooting and charging. They rarely do damage but are annoying as they get in the rear or sides of the opponent. I sometimes wish they were skorchas instead though, but that's the models I have.

The bikes i place at the front of my force (in cover if possible). They try to avoid melee if they survive round 1. They move to maximum range and unleash their 18 shots at infantry. Only time they close in to melee is if they can tie up an important unit. The 14" movement gives them ability to quickly adapt to my needs on the table.

Both units are more there for their durability and speed than their firepower or killyness.
My main offensive punch comes from boyz, meganobs and tankbustas. I don't want to loose these too early to round 1 charges or deep strikers so that's why some surprisingly durable and fast bikes are nice to screen.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Dude, bloodletters aren't better than Boyz. At all. squishy(toughness 3), slow(6'' with +1'' on advance for the instrument), morale issues, more expensive, etc
They are all or nothing. You summon them(a risk and you have to prepare for that by a character in the middle), you roll the charge and if you don't roll 9'' - you just wasted 150-220 points for something 30-75 points of brimstones would've done better. There's a reason they're not seeing much competitive play despite doing good damage.

And I don't really have a main army. I got 4k pts of admech and about 9k pts of daemons. Orks are where I'm most lacking atm(as I started a few days ago) but I'm working on remedying that I'll post my spreadsheet here after I'm done on it. Right now I'm doing Ork damage and WOW they have a lot of choices. Uff.

About the points drops and increases - obviously most things need a pts drop. It's a tradeoff: make all our garbage units(20+) viable and you can make our 1-2 OP units less good.

Why do I feel like people who don't really play Orks are the ones who are most vocal about the nerfs we should receive?

Nerfing Boyz is the most stupid thing I've read on these forums, to the point where it was one of the main reasons I stopped stalking and felt the need to join the discussion!

Let's not take the discussion of Bloodletters vs Boyz any further, it's not for this topic but needless to say the 5++, T3 vs 6+, T4 I believe to be more survivable, 6" with optional +1" is always faster than 5" and 1 pt extra is very, very little (the minimum). If Ork Boyz were in the daemon codex verbatim, they would never be taken.

Please tell me what our OP units are? I seem to have missed them.

 Blackie wrote:
Have you tried skorcha buggies for the same role? At 54 points each they don't look that bad. They can't screen as well as the bikes since they're a single model compared to three and they may suffer from multiwounds anti tank more than bikes but they're significantly cheaper and capable of a comparable amount of damage, even with the shorter range.

About boring but competitive green tides: this is the competitive thread, ok, but playing the green tide is not only boring, it something that requires almost zero skills and tactics. IMHO there's no reason to discuss about a green tide for 100+ pages, what is really interesting is to make viable all the other units. Trying to make them competitive or at least viable is certainly more interesting and useful than giving the same suggestions about the green tide and IMHO it also fits the concept of the "competitive thread".

Of course the ork index in utterly unbalanced but sharing personal experience about different lists and how they perform (even if they fail miserably) and the synergies between units reflects the theme of the thread.

I really want to test out more Skorchas but I refuse to buy any more of the god-awful models we have now. In my experience they fulfill similar roles to Warbikes, in that they are distractions, but they have somewhat less firepower (due to range) but are cheaper (so are a bigger waste when targeted).

Regarding this "tactica" thread - I completely agree. The discussion should not boil down to 'how many Boyz and Weirdboyz you taking'.

I have tried out multiple units that, according to this discussion, should be avoided at all costs but they have proven useful at certain tasks. Nob Bikers for example, despite their expense, are utterly devastating when kitted out correctly and backed up by relevant support. I had used them with a Painboy on Bike before Chapter Approved but he was far too expensive and didn't add much in the way of durability. It seems a bit stupid that he can't heal wounds if he moves more than 5" when mounted, to me. Ork surgery isn't supposed to be a tidy affair and it kinda makes him redundant. Re Nob Bikers I'd always take 2 or 3 base so they take the hits and your better Nobz with the Power Klaw/Big Choppa can get to work.

Trukk Meganobz I have had some success with too, the extra 3 inches disembark move is massive for them as it's effectively their movement again. I really wish we had an 'Ard Case option for the Trukk though.

As for pistols/Bolters I don't know the wording it's never really mattered to me and the last time I played against a SM player he apparently cheated lol. Even without the pistols though the game is one sided between tactical and Boyz.

Boyz are only good when taken in HUGE amounts and then given buffs and they still aren't that great it's more to do with the fact that the buffs work best on Boyz due to the numbers/costs.

The only thing in our index Worth a damn is Boyz and even then it's only because it's counter meta. The best armies right now are filled with elite infantry, tanks and Primarchs. So most players build lists to deal with that, and then when they face 200+ Ork Boyz they get wrecked because Las cannons and plasma isn't that effective against hordes lol.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Dude, bloodletters aren't better than Boyz. At all. squishy(toughness 3), slow(6'' with +1'' on advance for the instrument), morale issues, more expensive, etc
They are all or nothing. You summon them(a risk and you have to prepare for that by a character in the middle), you roll the charge and if you don't roll 9'' - you just wasted 150-220 points for something 30-75 points of brimstones would've done better. There's a reason they're not seeing much competitive play despite doing good damage.

And I don't really have a main army. I got 4k pts of admech and about 9k pts of daemons. Orks are where I'm most lacking atm(as I started a few days ago) but I'm working on remedying that I'll post my spreadsheet here after I'm done on it. Right now I'm doing Ork damage and WOW they have a lot of choices. Uff.

About the points drops and increases - obviously most things need a pts drop. It's a tradeoff: make all our garbage units(20+) viable and you can make our 1-2 OP units less good.

Why do I feel like people who don't really play Orks are the ones who are most vocal about the nerfs we should receive?

Nerfing Boyz is the most stupid thing I've read on these forums, to the point where it was one of the main reasons I stopped stalking and felt the need to join the discussion!

Let's not take the discussion of Bloodletters vs Boyz any further, it's not for this topic but needless to say the 5++, T3 vs 6+, T4 I believe to be more survivable, 6" with optional +1" is always faster than 5" and 1 pt extra is very, very little (the minimum). If Ork Boyz were in the daemon codex verbatim, they would never be taken.

Please tell me what our OP units are? I seem to have missed them.

Ehem:

The bigger the number the better. Even at 6 pts, bloodletters are weaker against antihorde weapons. Obviously they're stonger against antitank weapons, but if your horde is getting shot by anti-tank weapons - you already won.

Anyway, did you miss the part of (reworded) "The boyz should get a point increase if all the bad units become viable". This is not "orks are too strong". It's "I'll trade 1 great unit for 10 good ones to choose from"(as in I want more diverse strategies)

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Snip.

Mate. Let it go. If boyz were OP, green tide wouldn't just be playable, it would stomp most armies flat.

 Cuz05 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Snip.

Mate. Let it go. If boyz were OP, green tide wouldn't just be playable, it would stomp most armies flat.

Guess what, other armies have 1-2 OP units and have access to soup(aka, +6 more OP units). Which is why orks have trouble dealing with them with their 1-2 OP units. Against non-soup non-codex lists, orks completelly anhiliate the opposition. They are the only non-codex army that is viable at the moment. If that doesn't scream "orks boyz are a bit too good", I don't know what does.

Also, I'm currently buying orks... Spoilers: I do not want an army I'll spend a lot on to be useless... I'm just reasonable.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Cuz05 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Snip.

Mate. Let it go. If boyz were OP, green tide wouldn't just be playable, it would stomp most armies flat.

Guess what, other armies have 1-2 OP units and have access to soup(aka, +6 more OP units). Which is why orks have trouble dealing with them with their 1-2 OP units. Against non-soup non-codex lists, orks completelly anhiliate the opposition. They are the only non-codex army that is viable at the moment. If that doesn't scream "orks boyz are a bit too good", I don't know what does.

Also, I'm currently buying orks... Spoilers: I do not want an army I'll spend a lot on to be useless... I'm just reasonable.

"Well, I'm buying them, you can rest assured that they're worth it, since I said they were. I'm reasonable."

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Ehem:

The bigger the number the better. Even at 6 pts, bloodletters are weaker against antihorde weapons. Obviously they're stonger against antitank weapons, but if your horde is getting shot by anti-tank weapons - you already won.

Anyway, did you miss the part of (reworded) "The boyz should get a point increase if all the bad units become viable". This is not "orks are too strong". It's "I'll trade 1 great unit for 10 good ones to choose from"(as in I want more diverse strategies)

What in Mork's name are those numbers supposed to be? and jazz hands?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ehem:
The bigger the number the better. Even at 6 pts, bloodletters are weaker against antihorde weapons. Obviously they're stonger against antitank weapons, but if your horde is getting shot by anti-tank weapons - you already won.

Anyway, did you miss the part of (reworded) "The boyz should get a point increase if all the bad units become viable". This is not "orks are too strong". It's "I'll trade 1 great unit for 10 good ones to choose from"(as in I want more diverse strategies)

By "antitank" do you actually mean any weapon that has -1 AP and above? Which is extremely prevalent this edition (ahem Primaris marines say Hi).

I'm not sure what these figures are supposed to represent to be honest? According to my very basic and quick maths;

- 9 bolter shots vs Boys =
6 hits
3 wounds
0.5 Boy survives

- 9 bolter shots vs Bletters =
6 hits
4 wounds
1.333 Bletter survives

Surely a Bloodletter is better at taking hits from a Bolter than a Boy?

I read what you said yea and it is so wrong it hurts. I'll say it again - Boyz aren't OP, they aren't even particularly strong. As others (and myself) have pointed out - their strength comes from the supporting characters buffing them, the assumption that they are in numbers over 20 and the assumption that your opponent will allow them to reach combat.

To use your language - your suggestion is not to replace one great unit with 10 good ones, it's to take one good one and make it trash for apparently 10 usable ones.

I'm still waiting to hear of the OP units Orks have access to? Or any valid reasons why you claim Boyz are too expensive?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Guess what, other armies have 1-2 OP units and have access to soup(aka, +6 more OP units). Which is why orks have trouble dealing with them with their 1-2 OP units. Against non-soup non-codex lists, orks completelly anhiliate the opposition. They are the only non-codex army that is viable at the moment. If that doesn't scream "orks boyz are a bit too good", I don't know what does.

Also, I'm currently buying orks... Spoilers: I do not want an army I'll spend a lot on to be useless... I'm just reasonable.

I'll need a source on; "Against non-soup non-codex lists, orks completelly anhiliate the opposition." and "They are the only non-codex army that is viable at the moment.".

Buying models does not impart rationality or a sense of balance. For whatever reason you believe Ork Boyz to be OP - I don't understand why? Have you played many games with Orks yet? Where is this coming from?

Boys are not OP at 6. Shoota boys are not OP at 4.

What is wrong with you?

We don't have a codex yet guys chill. Lots of our trouble is caused by being without a complete ruleset.

Ork boy spam is just all we got right now on the very competitive scene. You can't count on our shooting because of the rise in negative hit modifiers and you can't take anything expensive because of the prevalence of rerolled high damage weapons. This eliminates a lot of our index. Getting a mass of str4 attacks into close combat before it is shot to death is best done by Weirdboy moving boyz and Stormboyz.

I honestly don't understand why massed Stormboyz isn't considered better then Ork Boyz myself. The power klaw/big choppa point reduction of late I think is proof that there is hope of a codex making us more complete.

 Rismonite wrote:
We don't have a codex yet guys chill. Lots of our trouble is caused by being without a complete ruleset.

No, Most of our trouble is being caused by orks being incompatible with 8:th edition. No amount of rewriting and re-pointing the ork codex will change that.

 Rismonite wrote:
We don't have a codex yet guys chill. Lots of our trouble is caused by being without a complete ruleset.

Ork boy spam is just all we got right now on the very competitive scene. You can't count on our shooting because of the rise in negative hit modifiers and you can't take anything expensive because of the prevalence of rerolled high damage weapons. This eliminates a lot of our index. Getting a mass of str4 attacks into close combat before it is shot to death is best done by Weirdboy moving boyz and Stormboyz.

I honestly don't understand why massed Stormboyz isn't considered better then Ork Boyz myself. The power klaw/big choppa point reduction of late I think is proof that there is hope of a codex making us more complete.

Not having the Green Tide rule really hurts, as does running away from their mob-rule buddies. Plus the potential loss of the waaagh banner and painboy that footsloggers can take. That's 4 losses...quite a punch.

 jhnbrg wrote:
No, Most of our trouble is being caused by orks being incompatible with 8:th edition. No amount of rewriting and re-pointing the ork codex will change that.

I'm probably gonna regret asking this, but how did you come to this conclusion?

Who knew ork armies were owned by some of the biggest crybabies on the net. Let's see last two biggest ITC tournaments

Let's see... Nova results:
Imperium
Chaos
Orks(13th out of 212)

SoCal Open:
Imperium
Chaos
<deleted faction>
Eldar
Orks(13th place out of 136)

Let's see where are all those Dark Elves, Necrons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Chaos Daemons(actual chaos daemons, not brimstones + soup)... the list goes on. Oh wait. Way bellow orks? But... I thought Orks were one of the worst factions in the game! Has THE INTERNET lied to me!?

"Well those 2 tournaments mean nothing! They just got lucky!". Yeah no. The other smaller tournaments mean next nothing. They're filled with casual players and a few competitive players. No real competition. Half the factions are not represented. But... fk it, let's do it your way: oh wait, they're a top 3 faction of October(because 1 faction got deleted by GW).

But you guys are right. Orks are the worst.
AdMech has a codex. So obviously a pure AdMech army should do bet... oh... They didn't even hit top 50... Well then.
If you're losing as orks to non-soup armies (and mby new eldar/tyranids) - git good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Urluck wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
No, Most of our trouble is being caused by orks being incompatible with 8:th edition. No amount of rewriting and re-pointing the ork codex will change that.

I'm probably gonna regret asking this, but how did you come to this conclusion?

Instead of "Waaagh!" he went "waaaaaaah "

Obviously Orks are not tier 1. Soup armies are on a tier of their own. But they are solid top tier 2. Nids and Eldar may have moved ahead of them by now due to codexes(jury's still out on that one) but Orks are still one of the better factions.
Saying "orks are incompatible with 8th" is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard... and that says a lot because I spend a looooot of time on the net.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gitdakka wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Ehem:

The bigger the number the better. Even at 6 pts, bloodletters are weaker against antihorde weapons. Obviously they're stonger against antitank weapons, but if your horde is getting shot by anti-tank weapons - you already won.

Anyway, did you miss the part of (reworded) "The boyz should get a point increase if all the bad units become viable". This is not "orks are too strong". It's "I'll trade 1 great unit for 10 good ones to choose from"(as in I want more diverse strategies)

What in Mork's name are those numbers supposed to be? and jazz hands?

It's durability per point. "How many bullets does it take to kill x" divided by point cost. And yes, Orks are more resilient to bolters than bloodletters... They are also more resilient to even AP1 weapons because bloodletters have nothing against morale(bloodthirsters aren't real, forget about them. Icons are stupid as they are a 1/6, better to just get more bloodletters)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ehem:
The bigger the number the better. Even at 6 pts, bloodletters are weaker against antihorde weapons. Obviously they're stonger against antitank weapons, but if your horde is getting shot by anti-tank weapons - you already won.

Anyway, did you miss the part of (reworded) "The boyz should get a point increase if all the bad units become viable". This is not "orks are too strong". It's "I'll trade 1 great unit for 10 good ones to choose from"(as in I want more diverse strategies)

- 9 bolter shots vs Boys =
6 hits
3 wounds
0.5 Boy survives

- 9 bolter shots vs Bletters =
6 hits
4 wounds
1.333 Bletter survives

Surely a Bloodletter is better at taking hits from a Bolter than a Boy?

It takes 3.38 shots to kill a bloodletter and 3.60 to kill a boy. Might want to check that math again there, bucko.
Lasguns are even a bigger difference: 6 to 7.2
Yes, at Str 4 AP 1, bloodletter get ahead: 3.38 to 3.60, however, remember that morale comes into play. Guess what the bloodletters can do about it - fk all!

 Urluck wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:
No, Most of our trouble is being caused by orks being incompatible with 8:th edition. No amount of rewriting and re-pointing the ork codex will change that.

I'm probably gonna regret asking this, but how did you come to this conclusion?

Bs5+ and sv6+

It is impossible to balance against the increasing amount of -1 to hit units without making it too strong against some or too weak against other.
How many points are -1 to hit worth? It depends on the BS of your enemy, It will halve the firepower of an ork unit but barely make any difference to space marines.

The only solution is to make orks a pure close combat/ short range horde and scrap 2/3rds of the codex.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Instead of "Waaagh!" he went "waaaaaaah "

Obviously Orks are not tier 1. Soup armies are on a tier of their own. But they are solid top tier 2. Nids and Eldar may have moved ahead of them by now due to codexes(jury's still out on that one) but Orks are still one of the better factions.
Saying "orks are incompatible with 8th" is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard... and that says a lot because I spend a looooot of time on the net.

You are completely missing the point and also being rude.

Im are mostly interested in the internal balance, ive got shelf after shelf with completely useless ork models. Go somewhere else and troll please.

Well... Guess what. The only army immune to the "half my units are garbage" are tyranids. Pretty much every. single. other. army. has 50-80% garbage units. Check Chaos Daemons. Apart from Brimstones and Changeling, sometimes nurglings, what else is seeing play? Pretty much nothing.

 jhnbrg wrote:

Bs5+ and sv6+

It is impossible to balance against the increasing amount of -1 to hit units without making it too strong against some or too weak against other.
How many points are -1 to hit worth? It depends on the BS of your enemy, It will halve the firepower of an ork unit but barely make any difference to space marines.

The only solution is to make orks a pure close combat/ short range horde and scrap 2/3rds of the codex.

"The only solution is to make orks a pure close combat/ short range horde"

Um, not to be snarky, but that's what are now, and have been portrayed as that since 3rd edition. Same with the BS and 6+ save, these are not new elements. Yes, codex creep is a thing, the meta changes and so on, but a " pure close combat/ short range horde" is what orks are. 8th edition has merely reinforced that. Possibly you are confused about how the army works, and which the important units are?

What's your defination of a good horde BTW? Just so I understand where you are coming from.

ALL: Please keep in mind RULE #1 (BE POLITE) when posting in this thread - and on Dakka Dakka in general.

 Urluck wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

Bs5+ and sv6+

It is impossible to balance against the increasing amount of -1 to hit units without making it too strong against some or too weak against other.
How many points are -1 to hit worth? It depends on the BS of your enemy, It will halve the firepower of an ork unit but barely make any difference to space marines.

The only solution is to make orks a pure close combat/ short range horde and scrap 2/3rds of the codex.

"The only solution is to make orks a pure close combat/ short range horde"

Um, not to be snarky, but that's what are now, and have been portrayed as that since 3rd edition. Same with the BS and 6+ save, these are not new elements. Yes, codex creep is a thing, the meta changes and so on, but a " pure close combat/ short range horde" is what orks are. 8th edition has merely reinforced that. Possibly you are confused about how the army works, and which the important units are?

What's your defination of a good horde BTW? Just so I understand where you are coming from.

First: No. Orks have not been a close combat horde since 3:rd You have been able to do a fairly decent gunline, biker horde, kan wall, trukk rush, blitz brigade and a number of other combinations thru 3rd to 7th (not everything in every edition)

Second: Are people even playing the game? I have every ork codex since 3:rd edition in a shelf beside me, i KNOW the stats. The difference now is that we for the first time since 2:ne ed have to hit mods and save mods (orks in 2nd had Bs3) and it is making all my favourite units close to unplayable.

Third: Lol, you are being snarky and a bit confused about the orks it seems, orks are just as much about shooting as they are about close combat and has always been.

The way the core rules are working makes it impossible to balance the majority of the ork units, or how would you make f. ex lootas competetive without upsetting the balance with other codexes?

 jhnbrg wrote:

First: No. Orks have not been a close combat horde since 3:rd You have been able to do a fairly decent gunline, biker horde, kan wall, trukk rush, blitz brigade and a number of other combinations thru 3rd to 7th (not everything in every edition)

Second: Are people even playing the game? I have every ork codex since 3:rd edition in a shelf beside me, i KNOW the stats. The difference now is that we for the first time since 2:ne ed have to hit mods and save mods (orks in 2nd had Bs3) and it is making all my favourite units close to unplayable.

Third: Lol, you are being snarky and a bit confused about the orks it seems, orks are just as much about shooting as they are about close combat and has always been.

The way the core rules are working makes it impossible to balance the majority of the ork units, or how would you make f. ex lootas competetive without upsetting the balance with other codexes?

Thank you for taking the time to respond, I now understand your position, even if I do not agree with it.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Who knew ork armies were owned by some of the biggest crybabies on the net. Let's see last two biggest ITC tournaments

Let's see... Nova results:
....
"Well those 2 tournaments mean nothing! They just got lucky!". Yeah no. The other smaller tournaments mean next nothing. They're filled with casual players and a few competitive players. No real competition. Half the factions are not represented. But... fk it, let's do it your way: oh wait, they're a top 3 faction of October(because 1 faction got deleted by GW).
...
It takes 3.38 shots to kill a bloodletter and 3.60 to kill a boy. Might want to check that math again there, bucko.
Lasguns are even a bigger difference: 6 to 7.2
Yes, at Str 4 AP 1, bloodletter get ahead: 3.38 to 3.60, however, remember that morale comes into play. Guess what the bloodletters can do about it - fk all!

Have you played a single game as Orks?

You have conveniently picked tournaments that suit your argument and have (even more conveniently) claimed that other results "mean next to nothing". You see the hypocrisy there right?

My maths;

9 x shots at BS 3+ = 6 hits (2/3)
6 hits to wound T4 @ 4 Str = 3 Wounds
6 hits to wound T3 @ 4 Str = 4 Wounds

3 Wounds with 6+ (1/6 chance) save = 0.5 Ork survives
4 Wounds with 5++ (1/3 chance) save = 1.3333 Bloodletter survives

That make sense?

Now enough trolling, explain your position with regards your belief that Boyz are too cheap? It doesn't make any sense to anyone who has played the faction (which leads me to believe you haven't). You're not going to get any decent replies, conversation or discussion going when you insult the very people you're trying to convince of something.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Boys are not OP at 6. Shoota boys are not OP at 4.

What is wrong with you?

Shootaboyz would be the most absurdly OP unit in the game at 4 points. They would be fairly OP at 5 points.

Shootaboyz has roughly the same shooting output as tacticals, they are slightly more fragile when unbuffed, and they have 300% more damage output in CC. 500% more with the green tide bonus. They also have a much longer effective threat range for charges. 30 Choppa-boyz with a pk Nob will take off 6.5 wounds from a Leman Russ. Lighter targets just get deleted.

Boyz are one of the top 3 troop choices in the game. Maybe only Guardsmen are better.

@rvd1ofakind, don't bother arguing mate, unfortunately no ones really going to change their mind. I think there is a lot of emotional connection to this discussion, and everyone is afraid that a Boyz nerf will leave us unplayable, and as such will not concede anything. The evidence points to Orkz clearly being a mid-teir, maybe slightly below average overall performer (which personally, I am fine with). I don't think anyone should be worried that adding buffs to the army will make them degenerate, or too good. However, I agree that if the rest of our codex was competitive, Ork Boyz would be complained about. A 6 pt screening unit that does real damage, controls the charge with a warboss, and protects a competitively priced Ork gun line would be a nightmare.

I think what people are underestimating, is that if we get buffs across the board, sure other units will be viable, but green tide will only get better. Maybe that means that you will stop bringing your green tide, and bring the kan-wall or the gun-line you've painted so well, but it also means that the WAAC player brings his green-tide as well as those buffed kans (and does really well with them).

hollow one wrote:
However, I agree that if the rest of our codex was competitive, Ork Boyz would be complained about. A 6 pt screening unit that does real damage, controls the charge with a warboss, and protects a competitively priced Ork gun line would be a nightmare.

We already have a competetive gunline. At 42 points Kustom Mega Kannons deals more damage per point than obliterators.

But people will still not complain about our 6 point screening unit that does real damage. Not as long as Guard has a 4 point per model screening unit with a 5+ save and 4 attacks in rapid fire range, which can potentially be 18" with the right regimental doctrine. That is 1 point per 18" shot at BS 4+. That is an insane amount of damage combined with amazing durability.

I thought of a fluffy thing grots could do that probably wouldn't be op.

For every 10 models of grots gain A d6. On a 5+ they remove a hull point from a vehicle in the assault phase.

Call it "scrappers."

pismakron wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Boys are not OP at 6. Shoota boys are not OP at 4.

What is wrong with you?

Shootaboyz would be the most absurdly OP unit in the game at 4 points. They would be fairly OP at 5 points.

Shootaboyz has roughly the same shooting output as tacticals, they are slightly more fragile when unbuffed, and they have 300% more damage output in CC. 500% more with the green tide bonus. They also have a much longer effective threat range for charges. 30 Choppa-boyz with a pk Nob will take off 6.5 wounds from a Leman Russ. Lighter targets just get deleted.

Boyz are one of the top 3 troop choices in the game. Maybe only Guardsmen are better.

Shoota boyz, roughly the same shooting output as tacticals.
Shoota boyz. 500% more in combat (meaning 6 times) than marines.

'mkay.

Is I asked before, and you and your therapist may want to think about...what is wrong with you?