Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Who knew ork armies were owned by some of the biggest crybabies on the net. Let's see last two biggest ITC tournaments

Let's see... Nova results:
....
"Well those 2 tournaments mean nothing! They just got lucky!". Yeah no. The other smaller tournaments mean next nothing. They're filled with casual players and a few competitive players. No real competition. Half the factions are not represented. But... fk it, let's do it your way: oh wait, they're a top 3 faction of October(because 1 faction got deleted by GW).
...
It takes 3.38 shots to kill a bloodletter and 3.60 to kill a boy. Might want to check that math again there, bucko.
Lasguns are even a bigger difference: 6 to 7.2
Yes, at Str 4 AP 1, bloodletter get ahead: 3.38 to 3.60, however, remember that morale comes into play. Guess what the bloodletters can do about it - fk all!

Have you played a single game as Orks?

You have conveniently picked tournaments that suit your argument and have (even more conveniently) claimed that other results "mean next to nothing". You see the hypocrisy there right?

My maths;

9 x shots at BS 3+ = 6 hits (2/3)
6 hits to wound T4 @ 4 Str = 3 Wounds
6 hits to wound T3 @ 4 Str = 4 Wounds

3 Wounds with 6+ (1/6 chance) save = 0.5 Ork survives
4 Wounds with 5++ (1/3 chance) save = 1.3333 Bloodletter survives

That make sense?

Now enough trolling, explain your position with regards your belief that Boyz are too cheap? It doesn't make any sense to anyone who has played the faction (which leads me to believe you haven't). You're not going to get any decent replies, conversation or discussion going when you insult the very people you're trying to convince of something.

I have literally picked the two biggest recent ITC tournaments and then literally every major tournament from octorber. What else should I pick,
And that doesn't make sense...
9 shots /6*4(BS) /6*3(SvsT) /6*5 (save) = 2.5 dead boyz
9 shots /6*4(BS) /6*4(SvsT) /6*4 (save) = 2.666... dead bloodletters
And which costs less? Oh yes. Ork boyz...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Boys are not OP at 6. Shoota boys are not OP at 4.

What is wrong with you?

Shootaboyz would be the most absurdly OP unit in the game at 4 points. They would be fairly OP at 5 points.

Shootaboyz has roughly the same shooting output as tacticals, they are slightly more fragile when unbuffed, and they have 300% more damage output in CC. 500% more with the green tide bonus. They also have a much longer effective threat range for charges. 30 Choppa-boyz with a pk Nob will take off 6.5 wounds from a Leman Russ. Lighter targets just get deleted.

Boyz are one of the top 3 troop choices in the game. Maybe only Guardsmen are better.

Shoota boyz, roughly the same shooting output as tacticals.
Shoota boyz. 500% more in combat (meaning 6 times) than marines.

'mkay.

Is I asked before, and you and your therapist may want to think about...what is wrong with you?

Damage per point
Well, I'll be... Those ork boyz might be a TAD too good, huh?
2 shots at 5+ = 0.666 hits / 6pts = 0.111
1 shot at 3+ = 0.666 hits / 13pts = 0.064
2 shots at 3+ = 1.333 hits / 13pts = 0.102

wow.

Just.

wow.

You forgot to subtract the attrition on the way.

Rookie mistake on your part, no doubt, you're not an ork player.

But...Oy.

watch, and learn:

90 shoot boyz. 1 weirdboy. (without the weirdboy, all the shootas die before combat.) 30 dajump turn 1, 15 turn 2 (rest are dead.) 50% chance of rolling a 9, so average 15 get in turn 1, 8 turn 2. That means we get 23 in combat, for 600 points. The orks get NO shooting on the way, as the tacticals are always out of range (they backup up 6" and still shoot.) If we run, BS becomes 6+.

Why not calculate this?

If ALL shoota boys magicked themselves within certain charge range every turn, then they would be....OP. If not, then no.

Oy.

Terrain exists... Other units exist. Mathammer should only be used to determine pure damage and durability. Everything else has way too much variables. Evaluating range is impossible, which is what you're arguing for at the moment.

And orks are superior in damage and durability against anything above AP0. There's a reason tactical marines see almost no competitive play.

 JimOnMars wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Boys are not OP at 6. Shoota boys are not OP at 4.

What is wrong with you?

Shootaboyz would be the most absurdly OP unit in the game at 4 points. They would be fairly OP at 5 points.

Shootaboyz has roughly the same shooting output as tacticals, they are slightly more fragile when unbuffed, and they have 300% more damage output in CC. 500% more with the green tide bonus. They also have a much longer effective threat range for charges. 30 Choppa-boyz with a pk Nob will take off 6.5 wounds from a Leman Russ. Lighter targets just get deleted.

Boyz are one of the top 3 troop choices in the game. Maybe only Guardsmen are better.

Shoota boyz, roughly the same shooting output as tacticals.
Shoota boyz. 500% more in combat (meaning 6 times) than marines.

'mkay.

Is I asked before, and you and your therapist may want to think about...what is wrong with you?

10 tacticals will put out 6.7 shooting hits. That's is 5 hits per 100 points or twice that within rapid-fire range. Shoota boyz will put out 11 shooting hits per 100 points within 18".

In CC 10 tacticals will produce 6.7 hits, or 5 hits per 100 points. 30 shoota-boyz will deliver 60 hits, which is 33 CC hits per 100 points. Without the greentide bonus, we are still talking about 22 hits in CC per 100 points.

Tacticals are more durable in cover, takes up less space in a transport, and has better weapons options. But their damage output is pathetic. In fact, guardsmen are more dangerous in CC than space marines. And that is.... strange.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Terrain exists... Other units exist. Mathammer should only be used to determine pure damage and durability. Everything else has way too much variables. Evaluating range is impossible, which is what you're arguing for at the moment.

And orks are superior in damage and durability against anything above AP0. There's a reason tactical marines see almost no competitive play.

rvd, dude, listen. Your math skills are extremely rudimentary and it's making you draw absurd conclusions. You can't just compute iterated conditional expectations and then map it one-to-one onto points cost. That's just...nonsense.

You're also, pardon me for saying so, being extremely rude and abrasive as well as making ridiculous claims based on extremely basic math. Stop calling everyone crybabies that need to "git good" for not buying your arguments that, by your own admission, are based on exactly zero competitive experience with orks and just come from looking up results from tournaments that you didn't attend online and combining it with bad math hammer.

The sad thing is that I agree with a lot of your points, Orks are doing just fine I think and a lot of overlooked units are perfectly usable. The problem that people are complaining about is that 8th heavily favours hordes and that's the only thing keeping us afloat right now. I don't necessarily agree with that completely, but it's a valid complaint if it's true. When every discussion of "how do I build a list to take advantage of unit X" ultimately ends with "well, you could do A, B, or C, or combo it with D and buff with E, but compared to just spending the points on a hundred boyz you won't get the same bang for your buck" people start to get a bit frustrated, and that's perfectly fair.

All this shonky maths and bubble thinking is just clouds to me. Play Orks. You'll find boyz are not OP. They do nothing with their gunz. Nothing. They are very choppy, but so are all melee troops. Disadvantage boyz have is that lots (lots and lots) will die before they make melee. Another disadvantage boyz have is that they need their buffs intact. So deployment/movement restrictions galore. A third disadvantage, try getting all 30 boyzl piled in to attack. It's likely you won't. Not just because 10 of them died before they got there...
Advantages. Cheap. Dice spam. That's it.

So literally. Play Orks. See how boyz run. Stop with pointless math, baseless theory and irrelevant comparisons.
They are decent. They can surprise a foe. But if said foe is expecting horde (or merely not a doofus and made a list that isn't all the lascans), boyz are dropping like flies... Perhaps allowing all our other amazing OP units to dismember opponents who foolishly concentrated fire on our scary troops...

Well when I get replies like "go see a therapist" and "nothing can save orks ever!", I can't help but be a tad rude, you got me. Blind stupidity offends me more than anything.

Please tell me how else can you evaluate an army if not:
Math - Orks are going great
Big Tournament results - Orks are doing great
All yournament results - Orks are doing great

My skill/results mean NOTHING. Whenever I play AdMech, the opponent usually concedes turn 1 because I killed a 3rd of his army with Wrath of Mars DakKastelans alone. Guess I'm the best player ever and the army is the best in the game. Spoilers: the army can't even crack top 50 in big tournaments...

Anecdotal evidence like "in my local meta I'm getting crushed/am crushing everyone" mean nothing. Too limited scope and data.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cuz05 wrote:
All this shonky maths and bubble thinking is just clouds to me. Play Orks. You'll find boyz are not OP. They do nothing with their gunz. Nothing. They are very choppy, but so are all melee troops. Disadvantage boyz have is that lots (lots and lots) will die before they make melee. Another disadvantage boyz have is that they need their buffs intact. So deployment/movement restrictions galore. A third disadvantage, try getting all 30 boyzl piled in to attack. It's likely you won't. Not just because 10 of them died before they got there...
Advantages. Cheap. Dice spam. That's it.

So literally. Play Orks. See how boyz run. Stop with pointless math, baseless theory and irrelevant comparisons.
They are decent. They can surprise a foe. But if said foe is expecting horde (or merely not a doofus and made a list that isn't all the lascans), boyz are dropping like flies... Perhaps allowing all our other amazing OP units to dismember opponents who foolishly concentrated fire on our scary troops...

Orks have 3 very strong(borderline OP) units right now: Ork Boyz, Storm Boyz, Weirdboyz. Due to them being OP-ish, the units supporting them become OP-ish, leading to the best non-codex army in the game tournament results wise. You cannot deny that. It used to be Ynnari... but they were deleted from the universe.

Please tell me all those melee troops that are stronger than Ork Boyz. I'm listening
Bloodletters are good, but they're almost completelly outclased by Boyz, which are 1 points less.

#rvd1ofakindMade: never use tournaments results to discuss how good an army is. Pretty much every tournament is based on a 3 turns game due to time limitations. Which isn't standard 40k.

Guilliman gunline, pure eldar or ynnari, pure IG, tyranids, SoB, pure chaos are all way better than orks. SW with the new points reductions are quite good as well. Other armies are comparable to orks, a few ones a bit worse.

Drukhari for example are better than orks overall, I play both armies, but since they lack efficient ranged anti infantry they suffer green tides a lot. They struggle against orks but they can manage other competitive lists while orks can't.

Shootaboyz at 4ppm would be insane. Boyz spam is too common even at 6ppm.

hollow one wrote:
@rvd1ofakind, don't bother arguing mate, unfortunately no ones really going to change their mind. I think there is a lot of emotional connection to this discussion, and everyone is afraid that a Boyz nerf will leave us unplayable, and as such will not concede anything. The evidence points to Orkz clearly being a mid-teir, maybe slightly below average overall performer (which personally, I am fine with). I don't think anyone should be worried that adding buffs to the army will make them degenerate, or too good. However, I agree that if the rest of our codex was competitive, Ork Boyz would be complained about. A 6 pt screening unit that does real damage, controls the charge with a warboss, and protects a competitively priced Ork gun line would be a nightmare.

I think what people are underestimating, is that if we get buffs across the board, sure other units will be viable, but green tide will only get better. Maybe that means that you will stop bringing your green tide, and bring the kan-wall or the gun-line you've painted so well, but it also means that the WAAC player brings his green-tide as well as those buffed kans (and does really well with them).

The thing is, a green tide is already bringing the maximum amount of boyz they can. Buffing other units will not make that army better, because they would need to bring less boyz to field them. A kan wall in 5th brought around 80 boyz, a BW bash was 50, a kult of speed list was 72 at max. If those armies became viable again, they would have a lot less boyz than a green tide.

As for the gunlines, you seem to be forgetting that our weapon stats are way inferior to those of the Imperium of Man. Almost no unit can shoot further than 36", most can't even shoot 24". Ork gunlines are pretty much assault armies that are shooting while charging towards the enemy. You know, exactly like Orks should do.

I agree that most characters (weird boy, banner nob, pain boyz, thrakka, etc) must not become better by a lot because otherwise green tide will get out of hand. Those characters are in pretty good spot already, no I don't see a huge problem there. Clan tactics might be a problem if GW isn't careful, but unless they provide the entire tide with -1 to hit, I doubt it would break the meta in half.

What I could get behind would be boyz becoming 7 points if the green tide bonus would start at 10 models - this would help trukk boyz and bw boyz a lot.

 Blackie wrote:
#rvd1ofakindMade: never use tournaments results to discuss how good an army is. Pretty much every tournament is based on a 3 turns game due to time limitations. Which isn't standard 40k.

Guilliman gunline, pure eldar or ynnari, pure IG, tyranids, SoB, pure chaos are all way better than orks. SW with the new points reductions are quite good as well. Other armies are comparable to orks, a few ones a bit worse.

Drukhari for example are better than orks overall, I play both armies, but since they lack efficient ranged anti tank they suffer green tides a lot. They struggle against orks but they can manage other competitive lists while orks can't.

Shootaboyz at 4ppm would be insane. Boyz spam is too common even at 6ppm.

Even if most tournament games are 3 turns only(which they aren't unless you're slowplaying), that's where the competitive game is. That's where the strength of the army matters. Top tier 40k players playing the best they can.
If an army is better in a 20 hour game where every single move is calculated and measured perfectly - guess what, it does not matter one bit, because no one plays competitive like that.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I have literally picked the two biggest recent ITC tournaments and then literally every major tournament from octorber. What else should I pick,
And that doesn't make sense...
9 shots /6*4(BS) /6*3(SvsT) /6*5 (save) = 2.5 dead boyz
9 shots /6*4(BS) /6*4(SvsT) /6*4 (save) = 2.666... dead bloodletters
And which costs less? Oh yes. Ork boyz...

Well, I'll be... Those ork boyz might be a TAD too good, huh?
2 shots at 5+ = 0.666 hits / 6pts = 0.111
1 shot at 3+ = 0.666 hits / 13pts = 0.064
2 shots at 3+ = 1.333 hits / 13pts = 0.102

You've picked the two biggest tournaments that support your rhetoric. What about the results of the tournament GW held here in the UK. Wait didn't an SM list win using only tacticals?! Weren't AdMech in the top 5?

My maths is fine, we're actually coming to the same conclusion, we just have a different spin on the same thing. Ultimately it'll be 3 dead Boyz and 3 dead Bloodletters since you can't save half a Boy or a third of a Bloodletter.

Your comparison to the damage output a tactical has per point, and many of your other arguments, show your naivety when it comes to playing Orks. As others have said; you aren't going to magic all your Boyz in range to fire on the enemy. The "lol @ morale issue argument" falls apart when you put Boyz in transports, or they get shot at, focus fired and as the game goes on. The shooting looks really points efficient on paper but then you remember you want to advance every turn so you can effectively cut those successful hits in half. On the topic of advancing - if you're going to assume you can advance and charge your Boyz then you need to add the cost of a Warboss on to their points. I would also argue that a 5" movement assault unit with a T shirt save is obviously not "OP". "But we have Weirdboyz" I hear you cry; OK then, now add their points to the cost of the unit.

Orks aren't bad I don't think by any stretch. No-one is claiming this is 7th bad (I hope). Orks are very swingy though and I've no doubt when you actually play with them you'll see this. I thought the same as you when the index was released. I rubbed my grubby mits together and cackled at the possibilities of stomping enemies for a change. Then I played and realised this wasn't the case. It feels (appropriately you could argue) that Orks are always walking a fine line between wrecking face and completely falling apart. And when they fall apart, they do so hard and quickly. It doesn't take much tactical nuance on your opponents part to make this happen either - just walk back shooting and remove Boyz piecemeal.

The above being said I will try and bring this back to an actual tactics discussion because I'm really, really happy about the 'Mob Up' stratagem. I think it's perfect for us and could help mitigate much of the swingyness of Orks. It also allows us to run smaller squads of Boyz to make up a certain detachments before combining them to best effect. Or don't combine them if there are better tactical uses for them. The versatility it presents us is awesome (although you'll want to go first I guess). I'm currently looking at a 1k list where I fill slots with 3 x 10 man Boyz squads with the intention of combining them ASAP.

According to this, orks suck slightly less than tau an grey knights, who everyone agrees on are terrible.

If you actually care about discussing tournament results, please posts links to your sources. The last time someone was claiming tournament results as his sources, I went through the trouble of actually tracking down all the players list's just to find that he was talking nonsense.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Terrain exists... Other units exist.

I have yet to even claim cover for a single unit of boyz in 8th, let alone hide one out of sight. The only thing terrain does for orks is reduce charges by 2".

Any competitive army should have no trouble wiping out at least 60 boyz per turn. I constantly play against fluffy armies operated by veteran players an even those manage to kill most of two units of boyz in turn one.
The only reason boyz are great is because they have a higher strength than most units and (green tide included) they have four times as many attacks as most units. This is why they murder anything they touch in combat. The whole trick behind the green tide is having more bodies than bullets, so one or two units with that awesome statline actually connects with the enemy and destroys it. No matter how awesome ultramarine assaultcannon razorbacks are, if you brought more wounds than they have shots, you'll have orks left to score objectives.
The other side of the coin is that orks get tabled when they field stuff like walkers, trukks or battlewagon, with 60-90 boyz you have not brought enough boyz. I'd argue that a unit is not OP if it fails to do anything when bringing three full-strength units.

The two reason why the green tide is winning so many games in tournaments are:
- The meta is full of primarchs, baneblades, leman russes and other big things that players are forced to invest heavily into anti-tank. All those points are completely wasted against a tide. If they bring six lascannons, you're up against a 1850 point army.
- The games goes to time, and when the game ends turn 3 or 4 your opponent didn't get to shoot all your orks off the objectives yet.

Other reasons for orks winning are the garagantuan squiggoth and some non-soup player running a bunch of space marines into six smiting weird boyz.

Seriously, you seem to be someone with a lot tactical knowledge, but you have absolutely no experience with orks.

Go have 10 games with orks and let's then continue the discussion on whether boyz are OP, and not any sooner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Even if most tournament games are 3 turns only(which they aren't unless you're slowplaying), that's where the competitive game is. That's where the strength of the army matters. Top tier 40k players playing the best they can.
If an army is better in a 20 hour game where every single move is calculated and measured perfectly - guess what, it does not matter one bit, because no one plays competitive like that.

Look, someone who never played a 200+ model army is sharing his wisdom.

I picked the two biggest tournaments I can easily look up lists on. I did not pick and choose, trust me. If I can't look up UK tournaments and their lists on BCP - that's on them, sadly. There are plenty random open play, maelstrom, etc tournaments that all come down to what cards you get, who gets turn 1, etc. ITC cuts down on the randomness as much as possible.
The guy who made the top 10 armies of october didn't pick and choose the ork favoring tournament results, either.

And no, that's not the same conclusion. Boyz will never run as 3. They will run as 30(or more accuratelly as 90+), therefor the decimal differences WILL matter. Right now Bloodletter are MORE expensive despite being worse at almost everything. If Boyz were 7 points, it would actually be somewhat difficult to pick between the two in a vacuum. However with the buffs available from outside sources, even at 7 points, the boyz would STILL be the better choice by default.
No one, that wants to win, runs boyz in transports so that' irrelevant. And you cannot argue the fact that Boyz are way way waaaay less affected by morale than Bloodletters.
And you say "add x cost to the unit", when you forget that WeirdBoyz are good by themselves for smite spam that can beat people up in close combat too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@jidmah
Look at the list. It is literally:
Imperium Soup
Chaos Soup
deleted faction
Orks
every other army.

All my statements are easily backed up by checking Best Coast Pairings. It's a paid app, if you want to check the nitty gritty of it, which I do. But you should be able to get Nova and SoCal results online.
And please tell me what does the 200+ model thing do with anything? My mention of "i don't think most games end at turn 3" is not what you should focus on, as that statement is an afterthought. The crux of my post was, "even if tournament games end on turn 3 - those 3 turns are all that matters in the competitive scene"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By now, this argument is pretty much pointless. I present factual evidence - you offer anecdotal evidence in return.
It's a neverending cycle.

So I'll just skip that and go back to the damage spreadsheet I'm making for Orks so I have a better grasp on what to buy, along with units in top tournament lists and general rabble on the net.
Already ordered to have:
4 weirdboyz
Thraka
Big Mek
Waaagh banner
92 boyz
5 nobs
pain boy
dread
trukk
battlewagon
2 flyers (As I have 0 access to them at the moment)
3 bikes, that I can use as any character on bike(yay forgiving local meta)
5 burna boyz/lootas
10 tankbustas/commandos
20 storm boyz + their HQ duder

Seems like a good jumping on list of things.
Also I kinda want all the silly ork models. I love all the grots hanging on random things. I might buy the stompa just for the visual and maybe ask friends if they allow me to play it at 700 points or so(durability wise is what it should cost to be comparable with a Knight

I don't think that Boyz would work at all at 7 points. Boyz are kind of in a tight spot. They totally dominate in numbers, but their drop-off is extreme when you bring just a little less. Like when you run a green tide with 120-150 boyz it just falls flat when you have second turn against competitive armies. But when you play the same opponent with 30-60 more boyz it turns into a stomp.

But there is no denying that boyz is one of the best troops in the game, and comparing them to the decidedly mediocre tacticals is completely unwarranted.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, Shoota-boyz can do real damage with their guns.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
(Snip)...
Seems like a good jumping on list of things.
Also I kinda want all the silly ork models. I love all the grots hanging on random things. I might buy the stompa just for the visual and maybe ask friends if they allow me to play it at 700 points or so(durability wise is what it should cost to be comparable with a Knight

Why are you here? You join an Ork tactica thread with no experience at all and then not only bin off all the advice offered as anecdotal when it doesn't suit your own idea of how things are but you also argue for nerfs on a unit you have never used.

You say Bletters are de facto worse than Boyz. They are assaulting units that move faster and more importantly move as fast as most other units in the game. They have more durability against high powered weapons and I believe their weapons are better? They have better LD.

Stop talking about things you have no idea about. We have offered the same evidence as you with regards our tournament results and you have claimed it doesn't count because the tournament was 'too small', or you can't look at the lists.

Play a few games and let's talk then.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


So I'll just skip that and go back to the damage spreadsheet I'm making for Orks so I have a better grasp on what to buy, along with units in top tournament lists and general rabble on the net.
Already ordered to have:
4 weirdboyz
Thraka
Big Mek
Waaagh banner
92 boyz
5 nobs
pain boy
dread
trukk
battlewagon
2 flyers (As I have 0 access to them at the moment)
3 bikes, that I can use as any character on bike(yay forgiving local meta)
5 burna boyz/lootas
10 tankbustas/commandos
20 storm boyz + their HQ duder

Seems like a good jumping on list of things.
Also I kinda want all the silly ork models. I love all the grots hanging on random things. I might buy the stompa just for the visual and maybe ask friends if they allow me to play it at 700 points or so(durability wise is what it should cost to be comparable with a Knight

The Stompa would only be marginally usefully even at 700 points. If you really want to do damage look into getting 10-12 Kustom Mega Kannonz. They inadvertently got a price reduction so the Morkanaut could become cheaper, and now they have become extremely good.

Nah, I don't want to spam units that much, heh. But I'll look into them more carefully and maybe get some, thank you. I love grots.

So I'm writting up Nobs now. So um... what were they thinking with the Cybork body??? So it's a 6+ FNP, that costs 5??? That is a durability upgrade literally makes the unit LESS durable per point.

Am I missing something? It should cost 3 points to be about even with no upgrade.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I picked the two biggest tournaments I can easily look up lists on. I did not pick and choose, trust me. If I can't look up UK tournaments and their lists on BCP - that's on them, sadly. There are plenty random open play, maelstrom, etc tournaments that all come down to what cards you get, who gets turn 1, etc. ITC cuts down on the randomness as much as possible.
The guy who made the top 10 armies of october didn't pick and choose the ork favoring tournament results, either.

Sure, and I'm gladly willing to discuss that with you - I'd just rather go paint some models than spend hours searching the web about the two lists you're talking about.

And you say "add x cost to the unit", when you forget that WeirdBoyz are good by themselves for smite spam that can beat people up in close combat too.

I wouldn't bank on a weirdboy surviving combat. As soon as he can be targeted, we hill die - keep in mind that he is usually down to 1-2 wound when he gets into combat due to exploding all the time.
Besides that, you're right. The weird boy is the only unit in the codex that would still be good if its points were increased - assuming we get some decent psychic power, and not just another three flavors of smite like last time.

@jidmah
Look at the list. It is literally:
Imperium Soup
Chaos Soup
deleted faction
Orks
every other army.

Orks have 6, GK have 4, Tau have 4. The numbers are too small to actually read anything from them, a single great competitive player that refused to let go of orks and switch to soup could make that difference.

And please tell me what does the 200+ model thing do with anything? My mention of "i don't think most games end at turn 3" is not what you should focus on, as that statement is an afterthought. The crux of my post was, "even if tournament games end on turn 3 - those 3 turns are all that matters in the competitive scene"

Except I was referring tho everything else in your post. Even if you play as fast as humanly possible, you're not going to see turn 5 in a 2 hour game when fielding a green tide. You cannot do shortcuts in tournaments, in casual games, just just move the front line of your mob and push everything else behind it. Every single move, charge and pile-in matters, you cannot fastpath them. The worst part is that this boring and back-hurting exercise actually makes you win more games.

By now, this argument is pretty much pointless. I present factual evidence - you offer anecdotal evidence in return.
It's a neverending cycle.

No, the posters here are presenting you with actual experience of playing orks. You are applying your experiences from other armies to orks, and we are telling you that it doesn't work that way.
You are simply interpreting your results wrong because they are based on false assumptions, it's as simple as that.

Battle reports, blogs and posters on many forums are all reporting the same issues with orks. If you think you know it better, feel free to blow your money on whatever. I wonder why you bother to ask for advice though.

As for your models, I'll try give you some collection building advice:
- Nobz from the nobz box fit bikes perfectly, if you need biker nobz, pain boy or a big mek, just put one of the nobz on a bike and add a KFF bit from a 'naut kit or the MANz box (often available from ebay). With a little work you can also fit an AOBR warboss on a bike (you need to remove the loincloth).
- Flash gits are also based on nobz, a box of flash gits has enough bits to turn a box of nobz into flash gits as well.
- Don't bother buying tank bustaz. Every boyz box comes with two rokkits, every box of lootaz/burnaz with one. Just assemble all those rokkit boyz and push them into one unit. IIRC there are also tank busta bomb bitz in the boyz box (magnetic mine with a handle)
- You can get addition kommandoz by combining burna heads with the ammo backpack from the boyz units. In general, you could also just paint a unit of boyz with camouflage shoulder-pads and/or pants and no non-ork player would be able to tell the difference.
- Almost all boyz from a boyz box can use the burna and loota bitz (one has a spiky steel bar on his shoulders, so that one can't carry a bagpack without work). 3 boxes of lootaz + 1 box of boyz = 12 lootaz, 12 burnaz, 3 tank bustaz, 1 pk nob
- Try getting used metal version of finecast characters. All of them are recasts, and all of them have terrible quality, I needed to trade in Thrakka six times before I got one with only minor miscasts. If you buy finecast, make sure that they are undamaged before painting, GW stores exchanges damaged ones for free, but sometimes their entire stock is damaged.
- Magnetize your dread, keep all weapon bits. Kanz and Deff Dreads use the same weapon sprues, and both are among the easiest models to magnetize (just glue flat, round magnets into the arm sockets). Make sure to have all magnets facing the same direction, so you can swap freely. The deff dread kit is also the only source of KMB for kanz. I'll promise you'll hate yourself when you cannot change weapon loadouts after the codex dropped.
- Either magnetize them (hard) or model your flyers as burna bommers with the blitza bommer' bombs and additional shooters. That's the maximum loadout, and it's easier to have things to count as missing than the other way around.

 Cuz05 wrote:
A third disadvantage, try getting all 30 boyzl piled in to attack. It's likely you won't. Not just because 10 of them died before they got there...

This is often overlooked point, glad it was pointed out.
I'm trying to figure out that optimal ammount of boys/their equipment one has to take to stay viable but at the same time allow some space for other units - even for variety sake. Despite that orks can't hit anything with shootas, isn't it wise to have at least some units in your boy mob to be ranged? Since boys, who are still footslogging in are not doing anything.

Sorta like how it is good idea to include 7 shoota boys + 3 orks with special weapons into your dedicated 30 choppy boy squad, but scaled for the whole army. Green tide gives you +1A when there is 20 models, casualities on approach are expected and also you can remove any model in unit when taking casualities. When having 10 boys with ranged weapons, you can remove them on approaching and they still pump out dakka. Ammount of damage is very low, especially when taking into account the fact that you advance non-stop with choppy boys. But on the other hand, at least those soon-to-be-dead ranged boys got to do something compared to sluggas who still will die on approach. If somehow that mixed 30 ork gets in cc completely intact then you'll wreck face anyway because of greentide bonus. In terms of damage output difference between 20 sluggas + 10 ranged boys compared to 30 sluggas is very small.

So now we upscale this for the whole army - amassed boys are great, but they won't be making it into close combat all at once, even under best circumstances, simply because of physical space needed to surround outnumbered units with boys. So what if backrow of boys was a line of 10 shoota boys, they won't be benefitting from greentide, but it does not matter, because - blaspemy! - you won't be charging them into close combat right away. They are there simply because they can contribute to fighting while being in that awkward spot of being separated from enemy by fellow slugga boys thus not being able to contribute with attack. If opponent focuses them - great - your 30 choppy boys got to advance a bit further intact and leftovers of 10 shoota boys will not die to morale. If they let that 10 shoota boys move along with boys, they get to shoot at enemy (at least doing something where slugga boys would just stand around) and they can be soaked into damaged 20 and less boy mob to serve as ablative wounds for choppas and as green tide trigger activation.

TL;DR 1/3 of boys should always be shoota boys. Thoughts?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So I'm writting up Nobs now. So um... what were they thinking with the Cybork body??? So it's a 6+ FNP, that costs 5??? That is a durability upgrade literally makes the unit LESS durable per point.
Am I missing something? It should cost 3 points to be about even with no upgrade.

Welcome to our side of the rules, I guess?

It used to be a 5++ and was considered a great upgrade in the 4th edition codex. Everything even remotely playable from that time has gotten nerfed to the death in our last codex, and the index didn't actually make anything better, some units just got lucky when they were translated to 8th.

Ammo runts are the upgrade you're looking for. Throw gretchin into incoming missiles, take bolter shots on the nobz' armor.

 Jidmah wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So I'm writting up Nobs now. So um... what were they thinking with the Cybork body??? So it's a 6+ FNP, that costs 5??? That is a durability upgrade literally makes the unit LESS durable per point.
Am I missing something? It should cost 3 points to be about even with no upgrade.

Welcome to our side of the rules, I guess?

It used to be a 5++ and was considered a great upgrade in the 4th edition codex. Everything even remotely playable from that time has gotten nerfed to the death in our last codex, and the index didn't actually make anything better, some units just got lucky when they were translated to 8th.

Ammo runts are the upgrade you're looking for. Throw gretchin into incoming missiles, take bolter shots on the nobz' armor.

Would it be considerable upgrade if it stacked with Painboy aura for 5++? Whats the math behind your thoughts guys

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Even if most tournament games are 3 turns only(which they aren't unless you're slowplaying), that's where the competitive game is. That's where the strength of the army matters. Top tier 40k players playing the best they can.
If an army is better in a 20 hour game where every single move is calculated and measured perfectly - guess what, it does not matter one bit, because no one plays competitive like that.

Lots of player, including me, don't go to tournaments because of several reasons: paying for playing, spending an entire day of playing, environment full of dickheads, etc.... but they can play competitive 40k as well. Just bring optimized lists, and that's a competitive game, even if it's not a tournament.

20 hours is an exaggeration of course but no official event allows 3 hours of playing, including deployment. Many games are forced to finish at the end of 3rd turn in tournaments due to time limitations, it's not a matter of slowplaying. And green tides require a lot of time invested into moving your orks.

The guilliman gunline is a perfect example, in a 3-4 turns games orks can absolutely handle it, but if the game lasts 5-7 turns the SM list usually has the edge over orks. The stormraven alone can decimate tons of boyz in a single turn without being touched for the entire game.

 JawRippa wrote:
Would it be considerable upgrade if it stacked with Painboy aura for 5++? Whats the math behind your thoughts guys

Well, it's the same increase in durability, except you had to buy a pain boy. So, still worthless. It would need to be a 5+ FNP roll all by itself to even be worth considering. And then again, it's only on two models, if you get unlucky dice it might not do anything. Better just bring another Nob.

Yeah, Cybork armour is, without a shadow of a doubt, the dumbest thing in the entire game, that I know of.
It's an upgrade that makes your unit pretty much objectively weaker.

And yeah, I know ammo runts are worth it. Guess I'll have to get a box of grethin though to support the box of nobz.

And I'm all for magnetising... But only for the same unit. I don't want to dabble with conversions/taking stuff from 2 different unit boxes at all.

Also I love all the useless Stikkbombs on some characters. Hmm, what should I do.. 3.5 shots with str 3 or 4 shots with str 4...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


....

Automatically Appended Next Post:
By now, this argument is pretty much pointless. I present factual evidence - you offer anecdotal evidence in return.
It's a neverending cycle.

So I'll just skip that and go back to the damage spreadsheet I'm making for Orks so I have a better grasp on what to buy, along with units in top tournament lists and general rabble on the net.
Already ordered to have:
4 weirdboyz
Thraka
Big Mek
Waaagh banner
92 boyz
5 nobs
pain boy
dread
trukk
battlewagon
2 flyers (As I have 0 access to them at the moment)
3 bikes, that I can use as any character on bike(yay forgiving local meta)
5 burna boyz/lootas
10 tankbustas/commandos
20 storm boyz + their HQ duder

Seems like a good jumping on list of things.
Also I kinda want all the silly ork models. I love all the grots hanging on random things. I might buy the stompa just for the visual and maybe ask friends if they allow me to play it at 700 points or so(durability wise is what it should cost to be comparable with a Knight

I have a feeling those spread sheets are gonna feel pretty irrelevant once you start playing a couple of games with those models...

You discard whatever we respond as anectdotal, but experience wins games mate. Looking at what you're buying, you better build a kff big mek. Because those 2 ground vehicles and one dredd that you bring are going to recieve fire from all the enemies lascannons and similar guns.

Also I think next time you enter a thread you should abstain from all the insults and smugness. You'll get a more usefull discussion that way.

Spreadsheets are always useful. Again, you're not relying on them 100%, but 25%(yay random percentages). 25% spreadsheet, 25% tournament results, 25% general rabble, 25% personal experience, 5% pleasure, 50% pain and 100% reason to rememb--- whoops.
I already have a Big Mek, so that's fine.
I entered the thread pretty much saying that I'd take Ork Boyz at 7 pts if all the useless units were useable. That's all. It devolved into me being less tolerant after I got all the "Orks are the weakest" "Nothing can save orks" "Get a therapist" "Wtf are you taking about".

By the way, are these all the offensive buffs Orks have?:
Thraka - +1 attack for ORK INFANTRY
Badrukk - re-roll 1 shooting for Flash Gitz
Snikrot - re-roll 1 fighting for <BLOOD AXE> KOMMANDOS
Runtherd - re-roll 1 fighting for entirely GRETCHIN units
Banner - +1 to hit fighting for <CLAN>
Warpath - +1 attack for ORK

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I already have a Big Mek, so that's fine.
I entered the thread pretty much saying that I'd take Ork Boyz at 7 pts if all the useless units were useable. That's all. It devolved into me being less tolerant after I got all the "Orks are the weakest" "Nothing can save orks" "Get a therapist" "Wtf are you taking about".

By the way, are these all the offensive buffs Orks have?:
Thraka - +1 attack for ORK INFANTRY
Badrukk - re-roll 1 shooting for Flash Gitz
Snikrot - re-roll 1 fighting for <BLOOD AXE> KOMMANDOS
Runtherd - re-roll 1 fighting for entirely GRETCHIN units
Banner - +1 to hit fighting for <CLAN>
Warpath - +1 attack for ORK

You forget the most important offensive buff: The Waagh-aura from Warbosses, that lets you infantey advance and then charge. It is the single most important buff in a foot-list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And then there is the unit size buffs for boyz and Gretchin

There's also zagstruck who makes stormboyz fearless, the 6+ FNP granted by painboyz and the 5+ invuln given by KFFs.

Maybe not strictly offensive buffs but especially the zag one stacks with an aggressive style of playing.

Nah, I'm just looking for pure damage buffs where another unit affects the current unit. So I guess I didn't miss any then. I didn't look at forgeworld buffs yet, but I'm not sure if I should with GW's current "crush every viable thing from FW" mentality

I'd love to have more expensive ork boyz. Something like 10 ppm. But they'd better get 2 wounds and 3 attacks base. Also, some better shooting. They'll be less choppy overall but somewhat more durable vs 1-wound weapons. This will also make them much more affordable to deal with for armies with lots of anti-tank. So, boyz would be less of an anti-meta. i just hate painting