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pismakron wrote:
The trukk definitely needs to be nerfed not buffed. While it is already too expensive (compared to a rhino); even if it was fair value for its stats it would almost certainly be too expensive for trukk-boyz. I would like a trukk to be T6 W8 Sv5+ with a price of 40 points including a big shoota. Then you could realistically bring 12-14 trukks to a trukk-list. If you want to buff a vehicle it should be the Battlewagon. The wagon could do with a couple of more wounds and slightly cheaper weapons. This would also help to differentiate the to vehicles more, letting the BW transport high density models like characters, nobz, MANZ and such, while the trukk would be the best option for boyz.

This, so much this.

To extrapolate a bit more I think we could do with the following;

- A 40 pt smaller Boyz transport that has lower stats.
- Then we could do with a middle-ground transport option for our more expensive units (Rhino equivalent Trukk, for me) such as Tank Bustas, Lootas.
- An improved Battlewagon, for the most expensive units that need it.

Currently our Battlewagon is too expensive for what it is and the Trukk doesn't really suit transporting anything in our index.

pismakron wrote:
The trukk definitely needs to be nerfed not buffed. While it is already too expensive (compared to a rhino); even if it was fair value for its stats it would almost certainly be too expensive for trukk-boyz. I would like a trukk to be T6 W8 Sv5+ with a price of 40 points including a big shoota. Then you could realistically bring 12-14 trukks to a trukk-list. If you want to buff a vehicle it should be the Battlewagon. The wagon could do with a couple of more wounds and slightly cheaper weapons. This would also help to differentiate the to vehicles more, letting the BW transport high density models like characters, nobz, MANZ and such, while the trukk would be the best option for boyz.

The word you are looking for is not nerfed but "reworked".

BW boyz have always had different roles than trukk boyz in the past - I often played both in my lists.
Trukks were faster, so they could deliver the small boyz unit to support wherever support was needed. They could speed across the board and take an objective, tarpit some units or assist another unit in combat. A single unit of trukk boyz was never a force you needed to be afraid of, but a very flexible tool.
BW Boyz actually had the numbers to be a problem all by themselves and were dangerous enough to warrant spending resources to stop them. The downside was that they were slower and less fexible - but they would sometimes get back into their battlewagon to drive to another battlefield and fight again.

This should be the case again.

A lot of the nid monsters got the double/tripple buff of:price, toughness, save. Vehicles are basically monsters in 8th.

Also, why do you think I haven't failed charges when I play Chaos Daemons...? I have connected plenty with bloodletters though. What followed was a bloodshed. That was from turn 2-3 as you need to walk up to summon. When I heard I can do same-ish damage on turn 1 AND it costs cheaper AND there's no summoning risk involved(both roll and reserve points) AND you can shoot before charging... Yeah, that sounds preeeeetty good.

maybe not super optimal, but I actually ran a mechanized list with the intention of testing the new stratagem just yesterday and it worked out quite nicely. I had 2 units of mostly big choppa nobz (I just own a lot of nobz because they were my favorite kit getting into the game) so turn 1 I mobbed up and da-jumped 19 nobz at my enemy in place of the usual distraction boyz-blob. Turn 2, I had a battlewagon with 20 boyz and a trukk with 9 boyz, a warboss running the new trait+Relic for S8 mortal wounding goodness, a waaagh banner and a painboy, they jumped out, advanced and mobbed up to be 29 strong and in range of the buffers.

the nobz died on enemy turn 1 of course, but thanks to them being 2w and having armor they didn't just follow the usual pattern that boyz typically do where they take all the bolter and lasgun fire and the anti-tank does what it would have normally done which is blow up my transports and then I'm up gak creek. instead the manticore and the basilisk both dedicated to shooting at Nobz to try and use their D3 damage to kill them. and then by the time the boyz got there, the nobz had already cut down pretty much all the chaff (they killed 4x infantry squads by splitting their attacks up and letting Morale work for them) so the rest of the game was a fall back+overwatch loop with most of the tanks and artillery.

This was against Cadian guard.

Thing is, your Bletters are appearing turn 2/3, they aren't spending turn 1/2 being cut to ribbons. Don't they have AP on their attacks too? 3+ save is annoyingly resilient against no AP attacks.
30 boyz making a turn 1 charge is great n all, but they're only a distraction so the rest of them can slog up without being perforated 10" from the deployment zone.

 Cuz05 wrote:
Thing is, your Bletters are appearing turn 2/3, they aren't spending turn 1/2 being cut to ribbons. Don't they have AP on their attacks too? 3+ save is annoyingly resilient against no AP attacks.
30 boyz making a turn 1 charge is great n all, but they're only a distraction so the rest of them can slog up without being perforated 10" from the deployment zone.

-3 AP yea. Lol you're wasting your breath on this guy I'm afraid. Let him live in his world of numbers and spreadsheets.

I don't think he understands that when you're on the field of battle you can be targeted and therefore destroyed before you're able to do anything. He believes Boyz are immune to morale but has yet to experience the joy of losing 15 then another 6 to morale. He even thinks Slugga shots are going to amount to much, bless.

And tournament data! Don't forget that one! Which says that ork boyz see play in every ork army and orks are 3rd results wise behind the 2 big soup lists pre-codex. Guess how much play do bloodletters see? No play! You guessed it! Because they completelly rely on a 8'' charge and that's very inconsistent. While boys can at least shoot and can get out of the terrible charge roll situation(You can choose to re-roll with CP or rule right?)

Also, where are you running into 3+ models turn one
Last I checked I was running into: conscripts, cultists, poxwalkers, plaguebearers and brimstones. And - you guessed it - ork boyz!

I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

They are crap at 5pts and even worse at 6. You are paying 6pts for 1 S5 No AP shot to hit a turn. Marines pay 10pts for a S5 -1 AP weapon that likely hits TWICE a turn. Statistically alone the big shoota should be 3-3pts.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

They are crap at 5pts and even worse at 6. You are paying 6pts for 1 S5 No AP shot to hit a turn. Marines pay 10pts for a S5 -1 AP weapon that likely hits TWICE a turn. Statistically alone the big shoota should be 3-3pts.

Protip: if you want to make an assertion sound more reasonable, always give it in the form of a range, even if its a range of exactly one number.

(I know its a typo but its funnier to imagine it this way)

So is Battlescribe borked? It shows me that the Mek Gunz are 25 points without a gun... They should be just 10 points (2*5 gunner grots), right?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
And tournament data! Don't forget that one! Which says that ork boyz see play in every ork army and orks are 3rd results wise behind the 2 big soup lists pre-codex. Guess how much play do bloodletters see? No play! You guessed it! Because they completelly rely on a 8'' charge and that's very inconsistent. While boys can at least shoot and can get out of the terrible charge roll situation(You can choose to re-roll with CP or rule right?)

Well I wasn't gonna...

But you kinda have it all right there. You're jumped boyz also completely rely on a 9" charge. The rest are getting shot at already. Bloodletters are apparently comparable to boyz but are 7pts and seeing no play. Boyz are seeing all the play. Because the rest of the codex needs help but boyz are reasonable at 6pts.
You will see all this for yourself soon enough. It doesn't take a tactical genius or a spreadsheet to see what's what with the Ork army once you start using it.
I'm not complaining about Orks being terrible btw. I love all the quirky ork stuff and don't enjoy hordes, I only play for fun and fluff and I use loads of different list builds. I just frequent this thread because I'm terribly interested in it all. I don't do tactical genius or spreadsheets and the balance of the Ork army is plain to me. Because I use it.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So is Battlescribe borked? It shows me that the Mek Gunz are 25 points without a gun... They should be just 10 points (2*5 gunner grots), right?

Battlescribe is very often wrong, but not in this case. The Mek Gun is 15 points, the 5 Grot Gunners is 2 points each, and the Guns are 15,16,17 and 32 points for the Traktor, Smasha, KMK and Bubble Chukka. The Kustom Mega Kannon is by far the best of the four.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

They are crap at 5pts and even worse at 6. You are paying 6pts for 1 S5 No AP shot to hit a turn. Marines pay 10pts for a S5 -1 AP weapon that likely hits TWICE a turn. Statistically alone the big shoota should be 3-3pts.

I would actually prefer if they would buff the gun rather than make it cheaper. Like, say, changing its profile to Assault 5, R24", S5, AP0.

Finally. Done the ork part of the spreadsheet. Feel free to use if you want.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k

Stompa should cost 550-600 to be comparable to Knight Crusader.

Concerning CA points changes:
Gorkanaut > Morkanaut still
All the buggies are all equally OK.
Rokkits, Killsaws are cheaper but still garbage
Powerclaw and Big Choppa are good to take on some units. Also made the Pain Boy a lot better.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

They are crap at 5pts and even worse at 6. You are paying 6pts for 1 S5 No AP shot to hit a turn. Marines pay 10pts for a S5 -1 AP weapon that likely hits TWICE a turn. Statistically alone the big shoota should be 3-3pts.

Marines cost 13 points each, so I can get a Marine with a Heavy Bolter and get two S5 hits per turn for 23 points or I can get two Boyz with Big Shootas and get two S5 hits per turn for 24 points. The Heavy Bolter is AP-1, but the Big Shootas can move and shoot without penalty. Seems relatively even to me.

Of course Space Marines have access to a lot of things to buff their shooting, and that's something Orks lack. I don't think that's a problem with the Big Shoota, it's a problem with how Orks were implemented in the Index. Hopefully we'll get some good Clan abilities, Warlord Traits, Stratagems and whatnot to fix that when we get our codex.

I think that there are a lot of other problems with Ork shooting and synergy with Boyz that make the Big Shoota an unappealing upgrade for Boyz. I want Big Shootas to be a viable special weapon, and they could fix them by dropping the points and/or making the Big Shoota more powerful, but personally I would like them to go with other solutions. I think that allowing us to take more special weapons per unit of Boyz would help. Three special weapons in a mob of thirty Boyz is just not significant enough to not run them as fast as possible at the enemy in order to get into close combat. The box supports one special weapon per five boyz, so we could easily double the number of special weapons per unit. Going back to allowing three special weapons per unit no matter what the size could also help for small mobs of boyz. They could even do some combination like three special weapons plus one for every ten Boyz. A mob of ten Shoota Boyz that had four Big Shootas plus a Nob plus four Boyz to act as ablative wounds might not be so bad. Throw on a decent buff to shooting from a Clan ability and/or Warlord Trait and they might actually be good.

What use does the battlefront have in the army? Transporting mostly shoota boys? What load outs would you equip it with?


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By battlefront I meant battlewagon lol

Here's an Ork rule cheat sheet you can use, so you don't forget auras and random special rules:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ez_NIvrajV2pTiO3U6nv0gVIpo2to9RN

And here's a anti-tank ranged weapons comparison. Green is good, red is bad. Onager at top for a "this is the pretty good average" number

Battlewagon Kill Cannon is iffy as it is a sidegrade so I didn't add the model cost to it.
The superheavies are also iffy, as I did not add the weapons you shouldn't shoot into vehicles.
Gorkanaut is currently just a worse Knight Crusader(who isn't seeing play as a solo superheavy), and Morkanaut is even worse.

So yeah, the newly buffed Mek Gun Mega-kannon is pretty good. Good durability too.
Tankbustas however are still king if they get close, doing 2x the amount of damage.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Here's an Ork rule cheat sheet you can use, so you don't forget auras and random special rules:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ez_NIvrajV2pTiO3U6nv0gVIpo2to9RN

And here's a anti-tank ranged weapons comparison. Green is good, red is bad. Onager at top for a "this is the pretty good average" number

Battlewagon Kill Cannon is iffy as it is a sidegrade so I didn't add the model cost to it.
The superheavies are also iffy, as I did not add the weapons you shouldn't shoot into vehicles.
Gorkanaut is currently just a worse Knight Crusader(who isn't seeing play as a solo superheavy), and Morkanaut is even worse.

So yeah, the newly buffed Mek Gun Mega-kannon is pretty good. Good durability too.
Tankbustas however are still king if they get close, doing 2x the amount of damage.

Well if you wanna crunch numbers... Did you factor in the cost of a transport for the tankbustas? They pretty much must have it as they have such low range and durability. A trukk would add 82pts to 190 for a unit of 10 with 2 squigs. This leads to 30% reduction of points/damage efficiency for the unit. A battlewagon fits 15 and 5squigs, reducing point/damage efficiency by 45%. Efficiency drops further once the squigs are gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still think tankbustas are a superb unit though.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Here's an Ork rule cheat sheet you can use, so you don't forget auras and random special rules:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ez_NIvrajV2pTiO3U6nv0gVIpo2to9RN

And here's a anti-tank ranged weapons comparison. Green is good, red is bad. Onager at top for a "this is the pretty good average" number

Battlewagon Kill Cannon is iffy as it is a sidegrade so I didn't add the model cost to it.
The superheavies are also iffy, as I did not add the weapons you shouldn't shoot into vehicles.
Gorkanaut is currently just a worse Knight Crusader(who isn't seeing play as a solo superheavy), and Morkanaut is even worse.

So yeah, the newly buffed Mek Gun Mega-kannon is pretty good. Good durability too.
Tankbustas however are still king if they get close, doing 2x the amount of damage.

Why is the Kustom Mega Kannon listed as being better against T7 than T6? And what does the numbers mean? What is indicated by a value of 0.046? 0.046 what?

Well this just shows the damage values. If you see outliers like Tankbustas, you think how to factor in range/transportation for those.
However it also shows that there's a perfectly good risk free units - Mek Gunz, who can just fire from the start of them game until they are removed from the table. So if you use them from turn one and only get Tankbustas in at turn 2-3, the Gunz are just straight up better.

Why is a deff-dread with rokkit launchas listed higher than a Kills Kan with rokkit launcha? Regards

pismakron wrote:
Why is a deff-dread with rokkit launchas listed higher than a Kills Kan with rokkit launcha? Regards

I was going to ask the same question. Maybe the poster switched the two cases?

And also as anti tank does the chart assume ranged or melee attacks for all the units? For example the morkanaut might be better up close...

@rvd1ofakind, I think if you present raw data like this, practice adding more description like titles and labels. I'm sure all people here (me included) find your charts hard to understand.

Gitdakka wrote:
And also as anti tank does the chart assume ranged or melee attacks for all the units? For example the morkanaut might be better up close...

@rvd1ofakind, I think if you present raw data like this, practice adding more description like titles and labels. I'm sure all people here (me included) find your charts hard to understand.

Hmm... well I did write "And here's a anti-tank ranged [u]weapons comparison" so melee isn't included.

It's a work in progress, so feel free to tell me what I should change to make it more "viewable".

Bigger number is better(and greener). All of this is damage per point.
T - toughness
S - armour save
W - wounds
1st and 3rd also has 5++

I fixed it up a bit.

Gitdakka wrote:
And also as anti tank does the chart assume ranged or melee attacks for all the units? For example the morkanaut might be better up close...

@rvd1ofakind, I think if you present raw data like this, practice adding more description like titles and labels. I'm sure all people here (me included) find your charts hard to understand.

It is ranged anti-tank only. And I think this could be a pretty useful chart, but I suspect that it contains some errors that needs to be fixed first. Regards

pismakron wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
And also as anti tank does the chart assume ranged or melee attacks for all the units? For example the morkanaut might be better up close...

@rvd1ofakind, I think if you present raw data like this, practice adding more description like titles and labels. I'm sure all people here (me included) find your charts hard to understand.

It is ranged anti-tank only. And I think this could be a pretty useful chart, but I suspect that it contains some errors that needs to be fixed first. Regards

Yeah, I changed the pts values for the sidegrades for deffdreads and wagons.
Tell me if you'd like to see any type of chart: maybe "best case scenario damage"? As in:

1. best short ranged weapon declares the main target
2. Shoot all long ranged weapons at optimal targets
3. Shoot all short ranged weapons against the main target
4. Charge and melee the main target, if it's reasonable (Gunz wouldn't do that for example as they should be far away AND suck in combat)

I think Lootas would be a good include in your spreadsheet. One line assuming you always reroll the D3 when you get 'one shot' and the other with the average of two shots.

I also think a good include would be a trukk with ten tankbustas in it (treated as a single unit for the purposes of comparison in your sheet). Also, a Battlewagon with fifteen tankbustas in it might be a good include as well.

Is an Attack Squig worth taking?

I ask because watching a bunch of battle reps on youtube they dont seem like an auto take to me anymore. They used to add an additional attack, so extra PK attack for cheap. Now they have their own stat and attack profile and watching them in action they havnt impressed me at all. So is that an easy way to shave a few points by simply not taking one?

 KingCracker wrote:
Is an Attack Squig worth taking?

It costs 0 points. So, yes.

 KingCracker wrote:
Is an Attack Squig worth taking?

I ask because watching a bunch of battle reps on youtube they dont seem like an auto take to me anymore. They used to add an additional attack, so extra PK attack for cheap. Now they have their own stat and attack profile and watching them in action they havnt impressed me at all. So is that an easy way to shave a few points by simply not taking one?

Like pismakron said it's 0 points. I think the reason you're not seeing them is that a lot of Warboss models don't come with one and people are trying to keep things WYSIWYG.

I do hope they give the Attack Squig a points cost in the Codex. It seems like more of an optional wargear choice to me and I don't like that they made it an auto-take. (I do have four Warbosses with Attack Squigs, so it's not like this is really hurting me or anything.)


I do need to make more Bomb Squigs though. I only have two. I like the look of the Kromlech robot ones.