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Oh well a free attack is great then it can under whelm all it wants eventually it pays for itself

 Rismonite wrote:
I think Lootas would be a good include in your spreadsheet. One line assuming you always reroll the D3 when you get 'one shot' and the other with the average of two shots.

I also think a good include would be a trukk with ten tankbustas in it (treated as a single unit for the purposes of comparison in your sheet). Also, a Battlewagon with fifteen tankbustas in it might be a good include as well.

Trukk with rokkits, because at 6 pts... why not

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Trukk with rokkits, because at 6 pts... why not

Why are truckbustas equally good against T6,T7 and T8, but pretty awful against T5?

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Trukk with rokkits, because at 6 pts... why not

Why are truckbustas equally good against T6,T7 and T8, but pretty awful against T5?

fixd

Here is a shooting damage chart I made. The numbers are "percent of the shooting units point-cost killed in a round of shooting". So shoota-boyz will kill 24% of their own points worth of tactical marines per shooting phase. After four rounds of killing tactical marines the shootaboyz will have paid for themselves. Regards

what about an assback with girlyman support?

 koooaei wrote:
what about an assback with girlyman support?

Such armies allways has one weakness. They cluster vehicles and core hq's close together. If you aim to kill the vehicles and they suffer from explosions, the damage to the enemy is tremedous.

This relies heavily on some luck for rolling those explosions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In this regard it's fun to think of the guilly reroll clusters as death stars, and killing them with vehicle explosions is like the death star attack in star wars: seems impossible but devastating. Use the waagh!

 koooaei wrote:
what about an assback with girlyman support?

What exactly is the points-cost of a Assault-cannon razorback with Guilliman buff? I mean, how much of Girlymans price should be factored into the equation?

At any rate, I find it hilarious that Gretchin will shoot up Leman Russes more effectively than Killa Kans with rokkits. But they will.

the_scotsman wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that Big Shootas are decent weapons for 6 points even at BS 5+, but when a unit is always advancing and they start hitting on 6s then they no longer seem worth it. I hope that GW makes it viable to not always advance and/or gives us a way to mitigate the penalty for advancing and shooting.

They are crap at 5pts and even worse at 6. You are paying 6pts for 1 S5 No AP shot to hit a turn. Marines pay 10pts for a S5 -1 AP weapon that likely hits TWICE a turn. Statistically alone the big shoota should be 3-3pts.

Protip: if you want to make an assertion sound more reasonable, always give it in the form of a range, even if its a range of exactly one number.

(I know its a typo but its funnier to imagine it this way)

LOL nailed it, it was in fact a typo on my phone. 2-3 pts is what I meant to say,

In regards to making it BETTER rather then CHEAPER. Assault 5 would still be overpriced at 6pts. I might up the anti to 4-5pts but honestly there is no point to taking a Big shoota OR a Rokkit right now except that its required on a number of vehicles.

And to the person who says "Well SMs etc etc." well here is the thing, you factored in the model carrying it, Ok so what about the other dozens of models who can carry it? should we factor that in as well? No? then don't factor it in on the one example that benefits your case, also since you seem to think that they are equal, Boyz aren't ever going to be using it to hit on a 5+ because they need to be advancing most of the time to get in range to assault. Since that is the case this is a side upgrade and should be priced absurdly low to compensate for the fact that it lowers the # of attacks on the model carrying it. Realistically a SM with a Heavy bolter either on a vehicle or on an infantry unit is going to stand still most of the game, an Ork with a Big shoota is going to be moving all over the board, either to get into CC or in the case of vehicles, to get in range to drop off CC units.

Again raw stats:

Heavy Bolter, S5 AP-1 Range 36 Heavy 3 Hits on a 3+ (easily buffed to reroll) 10pts
Big Shoota: S5 AP0 Range 36 Assault 3 hits on a 5+ (advancing makes it a 6+) 6pts

the hit modifier alone justifies the price difference, the AP value difference makes the Big shoota over priced compared to the Heavy Bolter. And finally the fact that we don't have any buffs for shooting worth mentioning means that this is a forced item that we have to include otherwise it wouldn't be taken. Example, How many of you would gladly field a Trukk without a Big Shoota this edition if it dropped the price by 6pts? Another example would be, how many take the ridiculously over priced rokkit on Killa Kanz or the KMB instead of the Big Shoota even though its the cheapest weapon possible?

SemperMortis wrote:
And to the person who says "Well SMs etc etc." well here is the thing, you factored in the model carrying it, Ok so what about the other dozens of models who can carry it? should we factor that in as well? No? then don't factor it in on the one example that benefits your case, also since you seem to think that they are equal, Boyz aren't ever going to be using it to hit on a 5+ because they need to be advancing most of the time to get in range to assault. Since that is the case this is a side upgrade and should be priced absurdly low to compensate for the fact that it lowers the # of attacks on the model carrying it. Realistically a SM with a Heavy bolter either on a vehicle or on an infantry unit is going to stand still most of the game, an Ork with a Big shoota is going to be moving all over the board, either to get into CC or in the case of vehicles, to get in range to drop off CC units.

I don't see a problem with factoring in the dozens of other models that can carry it. I didn't because that would take many pages of writing and several nights worth of my free time. I limited it to a regular Space Marine because that's what you brought up. I don't understand why it's fair to bring up the cost of a Space Marine weapon and the BS it is hitting at but not factor in the cost of the total cost of the model.

Also, in my post I brought up the problem of Space Marines getting re-rolls and the problem of Orks always advancing. My whole point was that I'd rather see Orks get buffs to shooting and I'd like to see changes made that make it worthwhile to sometimes move and shoot Boyz rather than always advance. I think those type of changes would be preferable to dropping the cost of the Big Shoota.

I regularly move and shoot with my shootaboyz. It is a good thing to do whenever you can move them within 18" shoota range but not to expect to advance them within 8-9" charge range.

And I really don't think that Big Shootas worth six points, but even if they were 2 or 3 points they still wouldn't matter. Their statline is simply way too weak to make a difference, regardless of cost. And to fix that the Big Shootas needs a buff like one or more of the following:

1) Change them from Assault 3 to Rapid Fire 3

2) Change them to Assault 5

3) Give them AP -1

4) Give them S 6

I think it would be hilarious if Big Shootas were Rapid Fire 6, Range 24", S4, AP0. I would gladly pay 10 points for that.

pismakron wrote:
I regularly move and shoot with my shootaboyz. It is a good thing to do whenever you can move them within 18" shoota range but not to expect to advance them within 8-9" charge range.

And I really don't think that Big Shootas worth six points, but even if they were 2 or 3 points they still wouldn't matter. Their statline is simply way too weak to make a difference, regardless of cost. And to fix that the Big Shootas needs a buff like one or more of the following:

1) Change them from Assault 3 to Rapid Fire 3

2) Change them to Assault 5

3) Give them AP -1

4) Give them S 6

I think it would be hilarious if Big Shootas were Rapid Fire 6, Range 24", S4, AP0. I would gladly pay 10 points for that.

I would never pay 10 pts for a Rapid fire 6 Range 24 S4 no AP weapon....That is literally a slightly better version of a Kustom Shoota which is a 4pt upgrade and nobody takes that because its crap to begin with.

IF anything, I would say make it Assault 6 and give it a rending rule, 6s cause AP-1, and keep it at 6pts, then maybe I wouldn't mind taking them when required.

Well, i guess the price of an assback + girlyman support is approx the price of an assback +~20-30 pts of buffs. As the girlyman's distributed across multiple assbacks, himself and other stuff around. Let's say ~140 pts.

It's gona kill ~ 44% of tactical marine's worth of it's own points per turn.
Around 17% worth of rhinos
~37% worth of imperial guardsmen
And around 30% worth of other girlyman assbacks.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, i guess the price of an assback + girlyman support is approx the price of an assback +~20-30 pts of buffs. As the girlyman's distributed across multiple assbacks, himself and other stuff around. Let's say ~140 pts.

It's gona kill ~ 44% of tactical marine's worth of it's own points per turn.
Around 17% worth of rhinos
~37% worth of imperial guardsmen
And around 30% worth of other girlyman assbacks.

The funny thing is that 4 assault cannon razorbacks + Guilliman is pretty much the same amount of points and damage output as 7 unbuffed assault cannon razorbacks. Most would probably go for the Guilliman parking lot, but I think the seven vanilla AC razorbacks probably has a bit more flexibility.

Someone just placed 14th at the Warhammer World GT playing Orks. Does anyone have the list?

According to Ceri it was ”lots and lots of Mek guns and grots”.

The other list, which ended up in 72nd place, had 170 boyz.

pismakron wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Well, i guess the price of an assback + girlyman support is approx the price of an assback +~20-30 pts of buffs. As the girlyman's distributed across multiple assbacks, himself and other stuff around. Let's say ~140 pts.

It's gona kill ~ 44% of tactical marine's worth of it's own points per turn.
Around 17% worth of rhinos
~37% worth of imperial guardsmen
And around 30% worth of other girlyman assbacks.

The funny thing is that 4 assault cannon razorbacks + Guilliman is pretty much the same amount of points and damage output as 7 unbuffed assault cannon razorbacks. Most would probably go for the Guilliman parking lot, but I think the seven vanilla AC razorbacks probably has a bit more flexibility.

That's not always the case. "Just assbacks" are vulnerable to assaults. Whereas girlyman can stomp faces. Besides, he can buff not just assbacks but also other stuff.

Can you guys give me some general tips before the first game with orks.
General strat? Teleport choppa boyz turn one, advance with everyone else except artilery?
How to handle various characters with force multipliers? Do they just trundle along with the non-teleported boyz?

Teleport shoota boyz. You have a chance of about 50% to fail the charge, with shoota boyz you still have some value when you do. 30 boyz will annihilate what they charge, whether they are wielding choppas or not. Most likely you are going to be charging bubble wrap anyways. Shoota boyz can put some wounds on a second unit as well due to increased range.
And, from experience, they are dead by turn 2 anyways.

Don't hold the characters too far back. At most have two rows of boyz of them, otherwise they will get pulled out of formation when you charge and can easily be sniped by flying/deep striking enemies, or you might lose your aura. Conga-line to your buffs whenever possible.
Try to keep and alley for heroic interventions when a counter-charge is likely next turn. Don't pick fights with targets that can kill your characters unless you are sure they go down first.

Advance all melee units all the time. Ignore terrain, you will never have cover. Don't shoot what you plan on charging, or you will increase your charge range.

How should Kustom Force Field be handled?

I haven't really found a golden way for the KFF on hordes yet, but I put priority on holding objectives and making charges over staying underneath the KFF.
I've also had good success with spending CP on advance rolls of for big meks during the first two turns.

Once you have reached the enemy lines, KFF efficiency drops by a lot. Don't forget that a big mek with no upgrades but the KFF still has 4 S5 attacks on his profile.

So I'm working on my walker list and I have a thought. Killa Kanz are Ld 6, meaning if only one dies you could lose another to morale. Would it be better to field each Kan as its own unit? This makes them immune to morale, though they lose out on an extra attack for having 3 in a squad. Plus, this makes it easier for the squad to get cover bonuses, they can cover more ground, and it creates more units for the enemy to shoot at.

 Oguhmek wrote:
According to Ceri it was ”lots and lots of Mek guns and grots”.

The other list, which ended up in 72nd place, had 170 boyz.

I hate to say it like this but it sounds like he just slow played the gak out of a gun line and grot horde.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
How should Kustom Force Field be handled?

They are good with vehicles. I have some trukks and battle wagons and it's easy to get them in the aura. As per "designer notes", any rule with the wording "entirely within", such as the kff or terrain cover bonus, means all models in units must be partially within. So giving cover to a 30 boyz blob is hard, while for some trukks it's easy to qualify being within 9". I have my kff on a big mek on bike, so he can keep up with the vehicles. Pain boy is easier to buff foot hordes with, as only one model for the unit has to be within his range.

So why is Big Mek rated so highly if pretty much every vehicle is considered garbage? Shouldn't he be taken down a peg on the first page?
For now all I see him as is the dude next to the mek gunz

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So why is Big Mek rated so highly if pretty much every vehicle is considered garbage? Shouldn't he be taken down a peg on the first page?
For now all I see him as is the dude next to the mek gunz

In a foot list a Big Mek with a KFF is very potent against things like assault cannon razorbacks, heavy bolters, heavy flamers and intercessors. But he is not an auto include. Simply fielding more boyz has its advantages, and gives you a lot more freedom in positioning.

My advice would be to experiment a little. I used to bring the KFF-mek and then stopped doing it. In my last game I went back to bringing two.

Da Jump also requires some experience to use well. Knowing when and where to jump is a bit of a black art. Jumping 30 (or 40) shoota-boyz ahead can be a very strong move, but sometimes you want to position them at 15-16" distance rather than nine inches. And sometimes putting them behind blocking terrain on an objective is the thing to do. Regards

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So why is Big Mek rated so highly if pretty much every vehicle is considered garbage? Shouldn't he be taken down a peg on the first page?
For now all I see him as is the dude next to the mek gunz

KFF big mekz have their uses. I don't think they are top tier in our index either but whatever. I use one on a Bike to give mobile ++ to stormboyz when I field them. Otherwise I tend not to bother with them at all because I run a Kommandos list and don't have enough bunched together to make it worth taking.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So why is Big Mek rated so highly if pretty much every vehicle is considered garbage? Shouldn't he be taken down a peg on the first page?
For now all I see him as is the dude next to the mek gunz

Well even though Foot horde is considered better than vehicles, if you choose to use vehicles anyway the KFF is pretty much essential. Trukks are almost helpless agains heavy weapons without KFF but can sometimes weather incredible firepower with it and ramshackle together. Vehicles are expensive, but in my book they are worth it for the certain right units. Tankbustas in particular, but also Meganobs and flash gitz to some extent. Burnaboyz also need a vehicle but it's not enough to save them from all the other issues they are plauged with (d3 shots,why?.... )

trukk boyz or gretchin wagons are fun in concept, but too expensive for what they can do, and mostly end up wastly outgunned and outnumbered.

The fact that vehicle heavy lists are generally meh doesn't mean people aren't playing them. A lot of ork players don't really like hordes.

As for my experience with a big mek, i've only fielded him once with a walker wall. It was a casual game against necrons, so he was ok. KFF didn't do much but hey, it's just 20 pts now, so a single saved lazcannon pays off for it. Repairs were handy.

Didn't bother to run a big mek with horde lists. Hordes are allready cumbersome and buff dependent. Don't really want to restrict movement even more than that. You allready need a warboss to babysit boyz, boyz to bauble wrap widboyz...and don't forget about painboyz and banner nobz. They all have auras. If you add in another even more annoying bauble, it's just gona turn into warmahammer.

I would not put too much faith in the unit rankings on the first page. The barrier of entry for being top tier in the Ork Index is depressingly low.

Also, the KMK definitely needs to be bumped up several spots.