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Thanks for the post, I understand your points. I'm still not sold on nobz because it is true that you can add some stock dude in the mob but that means that the unit won't cause much damage if it reaches combat.

And T4 4+ save is actually quite vulnerable to anti infantry shooting, nobz can't really efficiently tank those kind of hits.

3 pks and 4 big choppas are not that killy against armored stuff, even if the entire units reaches combat. It may be anecdotal but in my games embarked nobz never wrecked anything valuable while meganobz did. Footsloggers usually resisted decently to the enemy firepower but if they footslog they're also easy to avoid and armored stuff usually prefer fighting the boyz than nobz unless they manage to charge first.

Thing is I like meganobz because they can actually hurt high T and high saves in close combat, while nobz usually don't. But I wouldn't rate the meganobz more than 2/5 anyway generally speaking, I just think that nobz are a bit overrated.

Kanz are ok to absorb firepower but they're too expensive for the little damage they cause. The WS5+ is really nasty and they'll get only a few hits by shooting since you'll never field tons of them and they don't fire many shots. The waaagh banner helps a lot though and I used it very often in combinations with kanz.

Hah, go tell a marine player that 4 S5 attacks that hit on 3+ "won't cause much damage"

Of course, a unit with 3 PKs will not one-shot a rhino or something similar (next to nothing in the game does), but they will crush a unit of marines and take a big chunk out of a dread. They also tend to be around next turn and do it again.

There are few anti-infantry weapons in the game that are better than twin assault cannon with full rerolls to wound and to hit - and it kills two nobz per gun or six gretchin. You would need three (half an ultramarine tournament list) to have decent chance of killing one of the three PKs. They might as well just gun down their average of 19 boyz and watch the unit implode to morale.

Hm have I messed up making a Nob squad with a bunch of PKs, for 2pnts more you get Killsaws which are just better?

So still building my army and I bought a massive unbuilt job lot off ebay.

I should have around 70 boyz, kff big mek, some deffkoters and nobz from black reach set, also 2 warbosses and tank bustas.

For sure I'm making one more 30 boy squad.

Now hear me out, I'm thinking along the lines of then making 2 10 man boy squads which will mob up with my core 2 30s during the game.

For the remainder I'm thinking of making more bustas (possibly 10 total), and maybe 2 5 man komando squads.

For the nobs I'm thinking to leave them as default, or maybe use the killsaws and power stabbas I have.

Deffcopters I may not even build, or potentially have a go at converting a chinork.

So what do people think of what I'm doing with the boyz? How many Kommandos do I really need? In the 10 boy squads should I be adding PKs?

I really think the color coded list has a bias for green tide style lists. I say this because I see boyz are rated top tier green but struggle in mechanized lists, biker lists and walker lists. Boyz are, in fact, good only in a boyz spam list. As an example, I feel stormboyz fit in a green tide list and would be above and beyond a superior choice to boyz in bike and mechanized lists yet they are rated tournament green like boyz. I feel the color coded system should reflect this lack of flexibility.

I think a grading system for list types needs to be small subsection to the color coded system above or people new to orkz might not understand why trukkboyz let them down in trukk lists soo often compared to trukkz with tankbustas.

My 2 cents, meganobz should be one tier higher. The painboy is strictly worse then Mad Dok, and should not share the same color. Lootas should be one tier higher, their range allows them to excel from safety in many lists without having to think about your army's target saturation. Boyz should not be green unless you are applying a handicap because they are soo essential in our best list. I think warbikers should be one tier lower because they are pretty terrible even in their own list. I think the Big Mek should be one tier lower because most things he would repair are bad and most things his KFF would be efficient for is also meh. I do not feel kommandos and stormboyz belong in the same tier. I feel Ghazzy is clearly a better choice then a warboss.

Take none or all of my opinions with salt, I do not consider myself a top tier ork.

The problem is that no unit in the index is mathematically efficient apart from full size boys squads, tankbustas, stormboyz, KMKs, . Battlewagons themselves are not efficient which dampens any other transport strategy.

Weirdboys are limited to 1 jump per turn due to psychic focus.

In other words op is not so much biased as the index is limiting. Look back in the thread and you will find pages and pages of grousing about how limited the viable strategies in the dex are. Frankly mob rule and green tide (which is an actual rule from the designers) are contributing to this.

People in this thread keep churning old ground. Somebody brings up a unit they like, be it warbikers or whatever, then somebody does the math and realizes they are not viable. Then everyone shouts them down until someone starts complaining about greentide being gak to play again. Rinse, repeat.

The real problem is not us, its the index being bound by terrible internal balance.

Boys being limited to greentide is again another symptom of the designers. They made trucks and battlewagons obscenely expensive. And if you want to be blunt that and greentide and mob rule are your problems right there.

Serious reductions in points costs on transports are step 1 to any kind of change on green tide being the only viable method of using boys, and the predominant strategy in the dex. Step 2 is heavy armor and special close combat weapons (eg burnas) weapons so they are viable in smaller units.

Aside from greentide I see one other efficient way of using boys which is to mob up 2 units for a unit of 40 jumping a turn with kommandos, which is what I'll be doing. I have no intentions of painting 150 boys to daisy chain them up painfully through unwieldy buff strings 5" a turn up the board and pulling casualties by the armfull.

Yeah, the common wisdom is that Orks need to have as much in combat 1st turn as possible, so kommandos, stormboyz and jumping 40 boyz turn 1 is basically how every suggestion for Ork lists go. Ideally you’ll have 70-100 models, if not actually in CC turn 1, then at least in their deployment zone. That said, once that’s accomplished - say you’re conservative and have 40 boyz, 30 kommandos and 30 stormboyz, all of those stock cost 750pts. In a 1000pt game that is really worrying to your opponent (unless they’re playing orks too ) and in 2000 you still have more than half your points to play with.

More boyz isn’t a bad idea but you could probably get away with another 300-360pts of boyz and have room for fun stuff like a trukk of nobz or bikers or kans or whatever. Things that need to be dealt with before they get to the rest of their army, or that would be tough to shoot off objectives. Yes, there’s hard counters for anything orks have but you can take enough basic troops to throw off an opponent and still have fun with it.

Since it seems like we have exhausted the possible tactics with the index, does anyone want to start a new thread that has proposed changes to units to make them more viable? It might turn into a good amount of wish-listing, but who knows maybe GW could glance at it and get a few good ideas.

 DrGiggles wrote:
Since it seems like we have exhausted the possible tactics with the index, does anyone want to start a new thread that has proposed changes to units to make them more viable? It might turn into a good amount of wish-listing, but who knows maybe GW could glance at it and get a few good ideas.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/739640.page

Already been workin on it with da ladz. Main consensus seems to be a generic army-wide rule where Orks ignore negative modifiers to shooting from enemy sources and points cuts across the board in general, with tweaking of weapons like some of the mek gunz (traktor kannonz especially).

Orks aren’t far off from a new codex.
To the person above who said mad doc is always better then a painboy. Yes in the beginning he was but the change to PKs made painboys more efficient. It also made meganobs and nobs more efficient (and remember don’t forget to take your ablative wound ammo runts).

With thousand sounds due this weekend I am sure we will hear about the next wave of codexs due soon. Keep your fingers crossed.

Anyone tried multiple Squiggoths? The regular ones, not Gargantuan ones. With CA points they look better than Battlewagons.

I have another 6 Deff Koptas coming in soon, at $5 a piece now is a really good time to buy them in bulk. This doubles my current number and I am REALLY hoping that the codex (when it eventually comes out) does a lot of good for speed Freakz because the idea of fielding 36 Warbikers, 12 Koptas, 50 Storm Boyz, 3 Trukkz and other assorted elements (Battlewagonz and slower things) is REALLY appealing to me.

I am tempted right now though to try and field a Speed Freak army in a competitive game soon. I am thinking MSU Warbikers just to get the Free Nob, and since I have 36 I could realistically field 12 individual units with a Nob in each one, then I can add on my Trukkz loaded with Nobz and some Deff Koptas to flavor, what do you guys think would be the most competitive build for those units I mentioned.

SemperMortis wrote:
I have another 6 Deff Koptas coming in soon, at $5 a piece now is a really good time to buy them in bulk. This doubles my current number and I am REALLY hoping that the codex (when it eventually comes out) does a lot of good for speed Freakz because the idea of fielding 36 Warbikers, 12 Koptas, 50 Storm Boyz, 3 Trukkz and other assorted elements (Battlewagonz and slower things) is REALLY appealing to me.

I am tempted right now though to try and field a Speed Freak army in a competitive game soon. I am thinking MSU Warbikers just to get the Free Nob, and since I have 36 I could realistically field 12 individual units with a Nob in each one, then I can add on my Trukkz loaded with Nobz and some Deff Koptas to flavor, what do you guys think would be the most competitive build for those units I mentioned.

May I ask where you are getting them for $5 each? I'm assuming you mean the metal ones?

SemperMortis wrote:
I have another 6 Deff Koptas coming in soon, at $5 a piece now is a really good time to buy them in bulk. This doubles my current number and I am REALLY hoping that the codex (when it eventually comes out) does a lot of good for speed Freakz because the idea of fielding 36 Warbikers, 12 Koptas, 50 Storm Boyz, 3 Trukkz and other assorted elements (Battlewagonz and slower things) is REALLY appealing to me.

I am tempted right now though to try and field a Speed Freak army in a competitive game soon. I am thinking MSU Warbikers just to get the Free Nob, and since I have 36 I could realistically field 12 individual units with a Nob in each one, then I can add on my Trukkz loaded with Nobz and some Deff Koptas to flavor, what do you guys think would be the most competitive build for those units I mentioned.

The most competitive build would be on the shelf. Warbikers and Deffkoptas will fold like wet paper if your opponent brings plasma or autocannons, and I bet that you will see a lot of those. But hopefully the codex will change things, but you know GW, they might just as well screw it up.


Three outrider detachments:

Zhadsnark, 122 points
12 X MSU bikers with PK, 1128 points
2 x trukk with big shoota, 2 x 11 boyz including pk nobz, weirdboy, warboss with relic-choppa, 446 points
4 Deffkoptas with KMB, 256 points

1952 points, 6CP, if I have calculated correctly (which I probably have not)

SemperMortis wrote:
I have another 6 Deff Koptas coming in soon, at $5 a piece now is a really good time to buy them in bulk. This doubles my current number and I am REALLY hoping that the codex (when it eventually comes out) does a lot of good for speed Freakz because the idea of fielding 36 Warbikers, 12 Koptas, 50 Storm Boyz, 3 Trukkz and other assorted elements (Battlewagonz and slower things) is REALLY appealing to me.

I am tempted right now though to try and field a Speed Freak army in a competitive game soon. I am thinking MSU Warbikers just to get the Free Nob, and since I have 36 I could realistically field 12 individual units with a Nob in each one, then I can add on my Trukkz loaded with Nobz and some Deff Koptas to flavor, what do you guys think would be the most competitive build for those units I mentioned.

For warbikers I guess you should get the PK if you every want them in combat. Without you have next no chance to kill anything at all in combat - if that doesn't bother you, just leave the nob with a choppa. I don't really see reason to ever buy a BC on a minimum warbike unit, it doesn't have an impact on its abilities at all, while the PK at least allows you to kill elite infantry.
However, 3 bikers with a PK nob are 94 points for 7 T5 wounds. A warboss with PK on a bike is 99 for 7 T6 wounds. Might as well have all your nobz count as warbosses and mess around with character targeting and free attack squigs.

Nobz in trukks should all be with ammo runts and shootas of course. For melee weapons I have found two configurations to work well over multiple games:
1) 3PK, rest choppas are sufficiently strong to damage vehicles and big monsters and threaten things like daemon princes, terminators or dreads.
2) 5xBC 1xChoppa - slightly better at killing vehicles than the above configuration, but weaker against targets with good saves. It's highly unlikely to lose ZERO nobz before combat, so you might as well save the points for the sixth one.

I don't really think there is a good way to run koptas, but if you want to run them anyways, go for rokkits.
You already have a ton of S5 shooting from your bikes and more is not going to do miracles, so big shootas are out and one KMB is only 3 points less than one rokkit. If you're paying 55 points for a fast shooting platform, might as well give it some firepower that sometimes does something.
Don't pay 15 points for two killsaw attacks, especially since spinning blades is already decent close combat weapon against a lot of things.
I had more success fielding them in single model units, but YMMV.

In any case, if you're already planning on bringing trukks, bring tank bustas. The only bad thing about them is needing a transport, and if you're already bringing transports, bring the best shooting unit in the army along.

I agree with jidmah. Bringing 12 Warbosses on bikes would be hilarious

pismakron wrote:
I agree with jidmah. Bringing 12 Warbosses on bikes would be hilarious

I am now seriously considering this, just for hilarity sake .

As for the person asking how I am getting $5 for Deff Koptas, eBay my friend, that and the trade forum here. The Plastic AoBR ones are cheap as hell, the old metal ones are crap anyway and I am sure as hell not spending that kind of money on that PoS

One nice thing about aobr koptas is they convert easily to nob bikers or warbuggies, so if you can hold off on painting them till the codex hits and koptas are crap still, you can slap some wheels on them - that’s how I made all my HQ bikers

 Multimoog wrote:
One nice thing about aobr koptas is they convert easily to nob bikers or warbuggies, so if you can hold off on painting them till the codex hits and koptas are crap still, you can slap some wheels on them - that’s how I made all my HQ bikers

Black reach koptas are AMAZING for converting; heres my kff mek

https://imgur.com/a/GKFel

I wouldn't recommend to cut up a model just before the codex might axe the unit or a new model is released for the thing you're converting.

Hence “if you can hold off”

Though, all the talk of warboss bikers has me thinking. I like the fluffiness of this list, while it might not be super competitive (though maybe it could be?). It seems like it’d be tough in a casual game at the very least. The idea of a super-elite gang of warboss bikers and a mek boss whose bodyguards are a mob of stormboyz and a trukk of nobz... if nothing else the sight of it barreling down across the board first turn would be cool as hell. I have a bunch of nob bikers for proxying as warbosses (and one actual bike warboss) which is a really fun idea.

Then the rest of the army has 100 boyz for mobbing up, 30 Kommandos, a weirdboy for jumping and a handful of KMKs. If nothing else it’s give an opponent a headache deciding on priority

Warboss on Warbike: Might is Right; power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: attack squig 93

6 Nobz: 4× shoota; 2× kombi-weapon with skorcha; killsaw; 3× power klaw; cybork body; + 1 Boss Nob (shoota; power klaw; Ammo Runt); 4× Ammo Runt 249

15 Stormboyz: Boss Nob 120

Trukk 82

Big Mek on Warbike: kustom force field 101
Warboss: shoota; power klaw; attack squig 68
Weirdboy 62

30 Boyz: Boss Nob (big choppa) 187
21 Boyz: Boss Nob 126
10 Boyz: Boss Nob 60
10 Boyz 60

10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90

1 Mek Gun: kustom mega-kannon 42
1 Mek Gun: kustom mega-kannon 42
1 Mek Gun: kustom mega-kannon 42

2,000 points, 7CP

 Multimoog wrote:
One nice thing about aobr koptas is they convert easily to nob bikers or warbuggies, so if you can hold off on painting them till the codex hits and koptas are crap still, you can slap some wheels on them - that’s how I made all my HQ bikers

I agree with this, especially if you have 12 koptas which are never gonna be part of the same list in a standard game anyway. 6 koptas plus 6 converted buggies looks quite better, and IMHO it's a safe conversion even before the release of the codex, because koptas are now extremely expensive and even with a price cut (no way they're gonna be cheaper than 60 pts) and some new abilities I think 6 of them would still be a lot and hard to include a 2000 points list.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Multimoog wrote:
Hence “if you can hold off”

Though, all the talk of warboss bikers has me thinking. I like the fluffiness of this list, while it might not be super competitive (though maybe it could be?). It seems like it’d be tough in a casual game at the very least. The idea of a super-elite gang of warboss bikers and a mek boss whose bodyguards are a mob of stormboyz and a trukk of nobz... if nothing else the sight of it barreling down across the board first turn would be cool as hell. I have a bunch of nob bikers for proxying as warbosses (and one actual bike warboss) which is a really fun idea.

Then the rest of the army has 100 boyz for mobbing up, 30 Kommandos, a weirdboy for jumping and a handful of KMKs. If nothing else it’s give an opponent a headache deciding on priority

Warboss on Warbike: Might is Right; power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: power klaw; attack squig 99
Warboss on Warbike: attack squig 93

6 Nobz: 4× shoota; 2× kombi-weapon with skorcha; killsaw; 3× power klaw; cybork body; + 1 Boss Nob (shoota; power klaw; Ammo Runt); 4× Ammo Runt 249

15 Stormboyz: Boss Nob 120

Trukk 82

Big Mek on Warbike: kustom force field 101
Warboss: shoota; power klaw; attack squig 68
Weirdboy 62

30 Boyz: Boss Nob (big choppa) 187
21 Boyz: Boss Nob 126
10 Boyz: Boss Nob 60
10 Boyz 60

10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90
10 Kommandos: Boss Nob 90

1 Mek Gun: kustom mega-kannon 42
1 Mek Gun: kustom mega-kannon 42
1 Mek Gun: kustom mega-kannon 42

2,000 points, 7CP

That lone trukk is going to die turn 1 no matter what though, I'd suggest to cut the trukk and add as many stock nobz plus ammo runts you can take. In fact 4 nobz with ammo runts are basically the same cost of the transport and you'll lose speed (but that trukk is going to die very soon so you're probably not going to lose that either) but gain a couple of wounds and a unit that is way more resilient to anti tank since 10 ammo runts can soak an insane amount of lascannons and similar weapons while the trukk can't.

pismakron wrote:
I agree with jidmah. Bringing 12 Warbosses on bikes would be hilarious

12 warbosses on bikes and 3-6 burna bombers. Now they can't be targeted and the only thing the enemy can shoot are planes that are gona crush amidst his ranks. Very 1-st turn dependant though. But counters primaris plasma gunlines.

 koooaei wrote:

pismakron wrote:
I agree with jidmah. Bringing 12 Warbosses on bikes would be hilarious

12 warbosses on bikes and 3-6 burna bombers. Now they can't be targeted and the only thing the enemy can shoot are planes that are gona crush amidst his ranks. Very 1-st turn dependant though. But counters primaris plasma gunlines.

That is very devilish.... haha, it could actually work.

What about a horde of runtherdz on foot with Ghaz, Badrukk and other characters? All supported by burna-suicide-bommers? Could it work?

I don't see a reason to field runtherds though. Even with grot prodder, their meele is kind of pathetic for 26 points. I'd rather bring a bag of AOBR warbosses.

Anyways:


Look, I just shoved all the characters and burna bommers I own into a list an it came out at 1500 points

Da Council of da Waaagh! is back.

I also realized that Snikrot is the only character that would ever care about +1 strength.

pismakron wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

pismakron wrote:
I agree with jidmah. Bringing 12 Warbosses on bikes would be hilarious

12 warbosses on bikes and 3-6 burna bombers. Now they can't be targeted and the only thing the enemy can shoot are planes that are gona crush amidst his ranks. Very 1-st turn dependant though. But counters primaris plasma gunlines.

That is very devilish.... haha, it could actually work.

What about a horde of runtherdz on foot with Ghaz, Badrukk and other characters? All supported by burna-suicide-bommers? Could it work?

I hope i'll be able to tell you how well it goes because i've got a game coming up. And my list is gona include 6 burna bombers, badrukk, 5 sag big meks, 3 lil meks and 3*15 kommandoes. It's obviously gona fail miserably vs any mellee army and it's gona be close to impossible to protect against deepstrikers but i've asked the foe to bring a gunline without deepstrike. It's allready an odd list and i want to see if it's even playable in ideal circumstances. The thing that makes me sad is that sm can easilly field a better version of it with beamer techmarines that are for some reason cheaper than big meks with their 2+ bs and 2+ armor. Yeah, beamer is only d3 shots but they're hitting on 2s. And s8 all the time.However, our planes are more explodey, so that is definitely more fun.

What's the purpose of the meks in your list, Koooaei? They don't have anything to repair since they flyers are way faster. If you need screeners or objective holders just take gretchin instead, approx the same cost but unlock more CPs. They can be targeted but they also have more wounds and can be placed in some spots in where nothing can see them.

2 out of 3 best ork lists in LVO included 80+ grots.
#ReeceWasRight #DakkaDakkaWasLeft

Any yet you didn't provide a link, a screenshot, a list or any other basis for discussion.
Or where 2 out of 3 ork lists place compared to all others.


#rvdNotProvidingAnyDataAgain

 Blackie wrote:
What's the purpose of the meks in your list, Koooaei? They don't have anything to repair since they flyers are way faster. If you need screeners or objective holders just take gretchin instead, approx the same cost but unlock more CPs. They can be targeted but they also have more wounds and can be placed in some spots in where nothing can see them.

They're the cheapest characters and can have runts. Also, they have shooty options. By no means are SAG, rokkits and kmb good options. But that's all we got and in this context it's better than mellee. And i actually want the opponent to shoot flyers. On the other hand, why not try out a ton of grots and flyers. That's a test for another time.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
2 out of 3 best ork lists in LVO included 80+ grots.
#ReeceWasRight #DakkaDakkaWasLeft

yeah...what's the best placing ork out there? 55-th...yeah, i guess grots are THAT amazing.

It lost once... in 6 games...
The 70 71 place lists lost twice. But they were still on the upper side of that.

And no one said grots are the best unit in the game. Reece said grots were ORK's best unit. Which i still think is silly but maybe a top 5 unit?