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2018/01/29 14:05:00
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Looking over those top 3 ork lists at lvo has me pretty confused how they got there haha. I dont think any of them had weirdboy spam or any hard hitting units. They just filled the board with boyz and grots. i dont see how they would take any games off lists with large volumes of fire/ elite armies/ or armies with fliers.
2018/01/29 18:19:50
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
I guess those all got spammed out of the tournament by dark reapers.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2018/01/30 05:13:22
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Eonfuzz wrote: I'm playing with a few friends and getting snarky comments whenever I use Zhadsnark, things like 'FW powercreep'.
I personally feel like he's one of our only characters that isn't overpriced - but do you feel like he's strong enough to warrant a ban?
From what I recall, he was the default choice over a warboss on bike until chapter approved dropped the cost of power klaws. Back then the point cost difference would of made him strictly better but now he just looks like you pay extra to get extra. I do not think running 1 character will break your meta. I think it's unfair of your friends to make comments like that, if you're playing competitively than they should take it as a challenge. It's in the rules and you're both playing the same game. If you're playing for fun and flavour then they won't be getting as much enjoyment by focusing on stats over feel.
OK ladz, so I'm looking for a new modelling project and considering a small force of freebooter pirates using converted kharadron airships, doesn't need to be super hard but would be nice if it was semi-competitive.
Ideally I want to put everything in a transport, was thinking warboss, big mek, 10 nobz, 5 flash gitz in a battlewagon (the large ship), plus 3 x 10 Boyz in chinorks (the medium ships) and maybe a couple of the small ships to use as skorchas.
I just think the units will be too small, could mob the boyz up when they get out I guess.
Basically, what's the best way to run mechanized orks?
2018/01/31 06:20:11
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
You can try running nobz with ammo runts. This way you could have a unit of 5-6 nobz with 5-6 ammo runts. They're a bit harder to remove than boyz in such lists because they won't suffer morale losses.
As for the warboss, try Ghaz. However, keep in mind that it's pretty common to loose a battlewagon on turn one, so you'd better have multiple of those with evenly spread points. Say, Ghaz and a bunch of boyz and kommandoes inside one wagon and nobz, meganobz, flash gitz inside another one.
It's sad but currently melle lists with transports are not really all that great. The best mech you can get is spam forgeworld big trakks with supaskorchas and probably add something shooty like tankbustas or gits inside.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/31 06:22:00
2018/01/31 11:04:16
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
GreenTidePackers wrote: Looking over those top 3 ork lists at lvo has me pretty confused how they got there haha. I dont think any of them had weirdboy spam or any hard hitting units. They just filled the board with boyz and grots. i dont see how they would take any games off lists with large volumes of fire/ elite armies/ or armies with fliers.
I am guessing that those lists did well by filling the board with cheap/fearless infantry and then relying on them to hold objectives in his zone while being able to use the rest of his army to push for another objective, because seriously...who is going to be able to remove 80+ grots in the backfield while the boyz are pushing forward. It is a good tactic but it relies very very heavily on slow play because if they go to far past turn 3 the losses will be so heavy that eventually the boyz run away or the grots lose in CC and flee. effectively making a slow play list is why I dislike horde.
GreenTidePackers wrote: Looking over those top 3 ork lists at lvo has me pretty confused how they got there haha. I dont think any of them had weirdboy spam or any hard hitting units. They just filled the board with boyz and grots. i dont see how they would take any games off lists with large volumes of fire/ elite armies/ or armies with fliers.
I am guessing that those lists did well by filling the board with cheap/fearless infantry and then relying on them to hold objectives in his zone while being able to use the rest of his army to push for another objective, because seriously...who is going to be able to remove 80+ grots in the backfield while the boyz are pushing forward. It is a good tactic but it relies very very heavily on slow play because if they go to far past turn 3 the losses will be so heavy that eventually the boyz run away or the grots lose in CC and flee. effectively making a slow play list is why I dislike horde.
Ok thanks, I guess I could go big trakks with gitz and nobz, plus some skorchas, and try and BBQ everything!
2018/01/31 19:57:28
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
I've played a game with a kamikazee list (6 burna bombers and a ton of shokk attakk gun meks, badrukk, lil meks and kommandoes). Faced an ig gunline with 6 leman russes, bauble wrap and 6 scion plazmacomsquad.
Got 1-st turn, killed some troopers and left pask with 2 wounds. Than 2 stormtroopers dropped, killed 2 big meks as it's impossible to cover 9" everywhere. Tanks shot down 1 plane and left another one with 4 wounds. Next turn planes managed to finish off pask, all sag meks failed to do anything, badrukk killed a couple scions. I needed a charge but oe squad of kommandoes failed it and that was pretty much over. The rest of his scions dropped and cleared the field, tanks shot down a couple more planes and i conceded. I had to leave the planes out of 6' and it was pretty easy for him to either move out of exploding range or simply not bother about them. And ig firepower and scion's deepstrike were too much to handle.
Waiting for the codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/31 19:59:32
2018/01/31 20:27:27
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Managed a win today, facing a list that was expecting to be fighting death guard, and it showed, it was only having a couple of hurricane bolsters to take down zombies that meant he had anything to face boyz.
Won by playing the mission, seems to be critical, if you can ignore the enemy do so, unless you can obliterate them, taking a unit to half size is essentially pointless and seems to my (very) humble warbles that even shooting at fliers is a total waste of time.
List isn't boyz heavy (I've only got 60 of them, so two units) and only 30 grots, because thats all I have - but the enemy either focuses on them and the other stuff can do its job, or focusses on everything else and finds the boyz on objectives when it matters with too many to shift in a turn.
so far 50-50 win/loss, either being utterly wiped out by lists built to take on a horde, or a win again lists built to fight marines.
Suggest (and something I'm doing) if you face a fair few lists that seem suspiciously well prepared to fight boyz, try having a kan wall or similar that can turn up occasionally to try to keep them honest.
Not using weirdboyz here (because I don't have one), and only running a patrol detachment at 1,500 (because I've only got one HQ) and 1k5 is just about every work I've got painted.
But it seems if you force the enemy to play your game, and don't make it too clear what that is they boyz can surprise people.
i.e. don't pile forwards to get into combat unless you'll get there T1, hang back, hide a bit, make them come to you so on your turn you can get into CC, make them come out of their castle, win on objectives.
when that fails, smile, clear up and try again
2018/01/31 20:53:00
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
koooaei wrote: I've played a game with a kamikazee list (6 burna bombers and a ton of shokk attakk gun meks, badrukk, lil meks and kommandoes). Faced an ig gunline with 6 leman russes, bauble wrap and 6 scion plazmacomsquad.
Got 1-st turn, killed some troopers and left pask with 2 wounds. Than 2 stormtroopers dropped, killed 2 big meks as it's impossible to cover 9" everywhere. Tanks shot down 1 plane and left another one with 4 wounds. Next turn planes managed to finish off pask, all sag meks failed to do anything, badrukk killed a couple scions. I needed a charge but oe squad of kommandoes failed it and that was pretty much over. The rest of his scions dropped and cleared the field, tanks shot down a couple more planes and i conceded. I had to leave the planes out of 6' and it was pretty easy for him to either move out of exploding range or simply not bother about them. And ig firepower and scion's deepstrike were too much to handle.
Waiting for the codex.
[user]
That’s a shame the battle went like it did. The kamikaze tactic works best on enemies that can’t effectively move out of the way, and none of the list is really suited for dealing with deep strike. Mek guns might be a better firebase than SAGs because they provide their own screening due to unit separation rules, and TBH I don’t know if SAG meks have a place in any list at all.
40k drinking game: take a shot everytime a book references Skitarii using transports.
2018/02/01 05:42:24
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
koooaei wrote: I've played a game with a kamikazee list (6 burna bombers and a ton of shokk attakk gun meks, badrukk, lil meks and kommandoes). Faced an ig gunline with 6 leman russes, bauble wrap and 6 scion plazmacomsquad.
Got 1-st turn, killed some troopers and left pask with 2 wounds. Than 2 stormtroopers dropped, killed 2 big meks as it's impossible to cover 9" everywhere. Tanks shot down 1 plane and left another one with 4 wounds. Next turn planes managed to finish off pask, all sag meks failed to do anything, badrukk killed a couple scions. I needed a charge but oe squad of kommandoes failed it and that was pretty much over. The rest of his scions dropped and cleared the field, tanks shot down a couple more planes and i conceded. I had to leave the planes out of 6' and it was pretty easy for him to either move out of exploding range or simply not bother about them. And ig firepower and scion's deepstrike were too much to handle.
Waiting for the codex.
Not to be a fun killer, but why did you expect SAG meks not to be garbage? They land like a single shot on average each and are horrendous on paper.
2018/02/01 06:57:42
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Aussie Cancon report here boys:
list is in this thread somewhere back a few pages. Basically its, 90 boyz, 30 stormz, Dakkajet, 6 KMK, 4 Weirdboyz, 13 Tankbustas, Painboy, Warboss, Warboss on Bike, and BigMek KFF.
ITC champion missions. I always took Recon (a unit in each quad), sometimes took Behind Enemy Lines, and almost always took Headhunter (depending on the list).
Here's the rundown:
Spoiler:
Round 1) Vs Genestealer Cult w/ some Nids. Plenty of guarantee charged genestealers in it, turned off my KMK flank for the whole game. I left a set of boyz behind and cleaned it up but it took a while. He bombed his character deep in my lines and my warboss took care of that. Rest of the boyz ran up the field and cleaned house. He severely underestimated boyz and met me mid field, his mistake and an easy win. Dakkajet was good here, got me clean recon (which i could not otherwise get since he was so fast) and killed most every screen he shot at thanks to T3. Buy MVP clearly went to boyz this game, they just decimated the midfield, i barely took casualties, every time i interupted a charge i killed a unit. Genestealers took a long time to get through the KMKs and ultimately died for it anyway. Win: 27 to 17.
Round 2) Vs Ultramarines: Fireraptor and mortars + gill and tank line. Da Jumped my tankbustas in a building, aimed at his fire raptor and started rolling. He informed me -2 to hit, so my bad. Basically game over right? Not very much line of sight on this table either, so I was taking about 40 wounds a turn. We clashed in the middle and I smote Gil to death, but after the KMKs were dead I was doing no damage and got tabled on turn 4. Weirdboyz smote the fireraptor and gil this game, MVPs. Loss: 18 to 34.
Round 3) Vs Spacewolves: a landraider, three dreadnauts, some wolf riders, some bikes, and some devos. Da Jumped the tankbustas in this time in a nice forward position that could hit all the hard stuff, and with a few extra KMK shots took the landraider off the board turn 1. The bikes fell quickly to stormboyz and his characters did not have enough swings to stop the horde. After he saw the boyz in combat he fled and castled in the back corner out of LOS from KMKs and it was a bit of a nightmare catching up. But I controlled the board. I chose kingslayer in this mission (one of the dreadnauts) which was a huge mistake, he castled that character and it wouldave been a clean win otherwise. KMKs were the hero's in this fight as they were outshooting his army. Win: 26 to 21.
Round 4) Vs Imperial Guard: Three super heavies and some support tanks with chaff. Pretty much nightmare scenario for me, enough chaff to take a few turns to get through, and after his shooting turn 2 boyz started having to make morale checks (which if you're playing horde you know that is game over). MVP here was warboss on the bike, he survived a charge from a stormhammer and swung back for 18 wounds over two rounds, that was the only tank I killed. MVP here again was the Dakkajet OR the bigmek KFF, KFF just absorbed so much fire over the KMKs and the Dakkajet was the only idiot in my army that could score me unit kills to keep up in the primary mission, and of course he was helping with Recon. I actually surrounded my stormboyz with the KFF for turn 1 expecting them to feel the shots, and they did, but with painboy support they only lost 11 wounds turn one. However once that protection started breaking up from movement i was suffering almost 70 wounds a turn. List building learning here (I feel like I may need to lean toward mobile durability more like big mek and painboy on bikes). Loss: 17 to 30.
Round 5) Vs the Brothers and horrors. Magnus and Morty just did their thing. Morty got in a good position among my characters and just destroyed them, but Magnus went for the KMKs. I basically just ignored them and spread out over the field. I got some free points thanks the the Gangbustas secondary, he brought some unit that self harms to cast spells (that has three wounds per model of 5) and loaded me up with points. Then I just went around killing horrors while he killed my backline. I had more space and controlled my objectives for longer (since I have so many stupid grots down the back) that the win was mine. MVP KMK grots, just wasting peoples time, 5 guys at a time. Win: 35 to 19.
Round 6) Vs a Tyranid carnifex gunline. This guy was prepared for hordes, had two squads of gaunts screening and 12 carnifexes with either 24 shots, 12 shots, or none. Tankbustas did literal nothing. He dropped lictors in the backfieild that were super annoying and got him recon + behind enemy lines easily, so basically all i could do was hope to win on primary. But this scenario only had one objective per side, and he just castled carifexes over his, and when I got close he just 3d6 charged all over the place and did work. This game did not feel close, and this was end of day 2 so I basically conceded on turn 4 but I did reasonably on points still. MVP were the KMKs here, as they were the only thing that could battle the shooty carnifexes. It might have been correct to castle vs this army? But if he charged across the field he wouldave won anyway, hard list and something I was not prepared for. Loss: 19 to 35.
Round 7) Vs Magnus and marine support, sort of thousand son-esq, he had some crazy dreadnaut things that dealt mortal wounds on hit, he had three of em in his backline. Had two squads of terminators that he deepstriked and turn 1 charged. I actually thought the game was easily over (my way) after that move because boyz destroy terminators. Anyway he cleans away half a unit with magnus and his termies. My turn 1 i jump tankbustas and split fire the bomb squigs into one of the dreadnauts and the rokkits into another (using the coveted DDD stratagem!). With some extra KMK shots I kill all three of his heavy support in the turn, rolled like fire. Sent stormboyz off to contest with his marines on his objective and they just deleted whatever they touched. I learned a few things about gumming up Magnus previously, so the grots were ESPECIALLY annoying this game. He had nothing left on the board but Magnus by turn 3, but damnit that guy still gets kills and I had no more units to kill, so the points were really close! He was actually winning on the primary even though I controlled all objectives and the entire board! I actually just can't kill Magnus so weirdly enough if the game went on for another turn he would've won (just by the way ITC missions work). MVP KMK grotts, and maybe stormboyz, they just rekt the back field. Win: 23 to 22.
Round 8) Vs Sisters of Battle with an Inquisitor supreme detachment that he threw into a drop pod. His army was full of flamers, meltas, celestine, and some seraphim. First time all day Da Jump failed turn 1 even with a reroll (how does +3 fail??), and then celestine was in my back line. He was using his 4+ "say no to a spell" stratagem and just getting it done every turn! So tankbustahs were shooting at celestine to no effect, and she was gumming up KMK. She was basically dealing no damage though, so just annoying. He threw two assassins in the middle of the field and just ran them at characters, I expected them to die at some point and did not commit boyz to the assassins (whcih i think was a mistake) and thus I did not have a few weirdboyz smiting or warboss or painboy for basically the whole game. By turn 4 I was starting to pull ahead in the primary, as celestine was dead and the rokkit boyz were nuking rhinos, and the dakkajet was slaying girls thanks to T3 all game, he wasted a lot of shots into it and he survived all game, total MVP. Stormboyz get an honorable mention this game, hiding in a building and overcharging their rokkits to land inside a clump of inquisitors, they got a few kills but didn't survive the flamers. So in the end not a lot died this game, his inquisitors were assasinating my weirdboyz and my rokkit boyz didnt get to play until late game. my KMKs were doing nothing great so his vehicles were alive for ages. But he was not really getting a lot done either. We didn't finish this game, ended turn 4. I feel like I would've pulled ahead the next two turns on primary, and I had still not maxed headhunter. Loss: 18 to 21.
Overall: 4/4. I think if I was a better player I could have won Round 6 and Round 8.
Takeaways: Even in losses, I got heaps of points. I was often ahead by turn 3 but then the causalities start taking their tole and points start to fall off. However some games I totally charge up late game (particularly vs sisters) as i had the time to get into position with everything properly. I think there is a reasonable case with my army to pull opposing castles into midfield via standing out of their range. But only when I feel the KMKs pose a serious enough threat (i.e. deploy KMKs in the FRONT line and my army behind them. KMKs with a KFF (plus repairs) take forever to die, and meanwhile I should be keeping boyz OUT of target priority where possible. This is a strategy I did not use that weekend and I think it would have worked vs my round 1, 3, 6, and 8 opponents. Running forward sometimes gives your opponent premium damage output that really helps them score, and once you reach a critical mass of wounds orks start to look very weak. Important note, I did not vs any dark reapers (they were all on the top tables) but I spoke to a few people and it was a general consensus that a horde ork army would likely smash those lists (nothing good to shoot at with the reapers, and the shining spear assault will get swarmed after they charge). But I have no proof of that, unfortunately.
Overall MVPs: Stormboyz, although they did not win MVP in my heart most games, they were often runners up. They threaten backlines too well, and just get the job done when you ask them to. Honourable mentions, Dakkajets and Weirdboyz (surprise). The Dakkajet comes with a caveat though, he's ONLY good if youre not trying to table your opponent and you are playing ITC. He is the only reason I got reliable recon every game. Weirdboyz are just super good, reliable smites, perils with a painboy, just damage output. They really shined when my tankbustas were at their worst (like vs no vehicle armies). Side note: only in the one game (round 2) that I got tabled did all my 6 KMK die.
Changes: I think moving forward I would bring 8 tankbustas max, as I was often overkilling the tank that I shot with 13 (plus two bomb squigs). Da Jump strategy is damn excellent and I will always be doing it. I think bringing another squad of 30 stormboyz for redundancy and morale assistance for my backline assault is a necessity, I would sacrifice a squad of walking boyz for that (and the points I gain for bringing less tank bustas), 60 boyz on the ground is enough. Other considerations are to double my KMK line, but I would wait for the codex before buying more, as they are actually better at shooting then almost anything. They are a nightmare to shoot, 5++, wounds don't roll over, and are 42 points each! The damage output point for point is excellent, we all know this by now. If I was to bring a 12 KMK army, I would sacrifice all my walking boyz, turn them into gretchin, and have 2 (or even 3) squads of stormboyz.
This is a big write up (for me) with heaps of spelling errors and forgotten unit names, forgive me for not reading over it and fixing stuff.
2018/02/01 07:23:36
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
koooaei wrote: I've played a game with a kamikazee list (6 burna bombers and a ton of shokk attakk gun meks, badrukk, lil meks and kommandoes). Faced an ig gunline with 6 leman russes, bauble wrap and 6 scion plazmacomsquad.
Got 1-st turn, killed some troopers and left pask with 2 wounds. Than 2 stormtroopers dropped, killed 2 big meks as it's impossible to cover 9" everywhere. Tanks shot down 1 plane and left another one with 4 wounds. Next turn planes managed to finish off pask, all sag meks failed to do anything, badrukk killed a couple scions. I needed a charge but oe squad of kommandoes failed it and that was pretty much over. The rest of his scions dropped and cleared the field, tanks shot down a couple more planes and i conceded. I had to leave the planes out of 6' and it was pretty easy for him to either move out of exploding range or simply not bother about them. And ig firepower and scion's deepstrike were too much to handle.
Waiting for the codex.
Not to be a fun killer, but why did you expect SAG meks not to be garbage? They land like a single shot on average each and are horrendous on paper.
Well, they kinda weren't garbage. In fact, 5 of them blew like 6-7 wounds off a leman russ tank (the first shot did 5 wounds, the rest were much less effective). I mostly failed with the planes. See, that's the first time i've used that many planes and i failed to position them correctly. I could have blocked fallback moves with them but i didn't. It's quite hard to maneuvre 6 planes that can't land and can only turn 90 degrees and have a minimum movement of 20 AND actually need positioning. We can't just outshoot the opponent point-for-point. Also, this list needs more meks to bauble wrap the big mks from deepstrikes and opponent's opportunistic advances. Also, i might want to exchange some kommandoes for biker warbosses. This list surely needs ways of tying up shooty vehicles.
It would have worked wonderfully vs an infantry gunline, though. Burna bombers fail to do that much vs vehicles, however. Shooting from 800 pts worth of burna bombers inflicted like 5 wounds to a leman russ. It's pretty awful.
The idea was to use big meks as a source of character long ranged antitank shooting. Pretty much the only unit we have for the job. Badrukk is much better but his 24" guns make him even harder to use in such list. As for the big meks, they surely need gitfindas or 2d6 shots to be worth the price. And mortal wounds triggering on 11+ is pretty meh. It needs like 9+ to be worth considering for such points.
The saddest part is that sm would have done much better with flying bricks and conversion beamer techmarines.
Also, games vs gunlines show the poor state of game rules overall. The whole game was basically decided by one unit of kommandoes not rolling 9+ on 2d6. The rest of the stuff i had been doing for like an hour before that happened to be irrelevant because of two dice rolls. Cause there is really nothing else you can do. There are no game mechanics to use. In the end you just HAVE to make this random charge. Or they shoot you off the board.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/01 07:51:57
2018/02/01 08:13:07
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Pretty much matches my experience with the SAG. It's a lot better than people give it credit for, since AP-5 actually means no armor saves ever and it pretty much always wounds on 3+ with d3 damage. I like to think of it as a Killsaw with 60" range.
Efficiency-wise it's not any worse than a mek gun or big gun that's not a kannon or kmk. So not awesome, but not "horrendous" either.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2018/02/01 08:50:08
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Jidmah wrote: Pretty much matches my experience with the SAG. It's a lot better than people give it credit for, since AP-5 actually means no armor saves ever and it pretty much always wounds on 3+ with d3 damage. I like to think of it as a Killsaw with 60" range.
Efficiency-wise it's not any worse than a mek gun or big gun that's not a kannon or kmk. So not awesome, but not "horrendous" either.
It wounds in a 3+? How so?
2018/02/01 11:21:54
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
I haven't used the SAG but isn't the problem with just just hitting things?
Hollow One thanks for the write up on the Australian tournament, I'm basically in the process of building a very similar list to you.
I was thinking a couple of units of Komandos would be a good idea, have you tried using these?
Interesting that you feel 60 boyz on foot is enough, I've got 60 boys ready to go and I was thinking I'd need one more squad, or possibly 2 additional 10 man squads which I could choose to mob up, or just sit on objectives.
You've sold me on Stormboyz, what size unit would you recommend?
Finally jet wise I was thinking a bomber might help fill the gap we have against high save high T, do you think if you removed the dakka jet it would have had a big impact on your games?
2018/02/01 12:15:04
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
I was thinking a couple of units of Komandos would be a good idea, have you tried using these?
It depends on how you want to play them. They're ok as min units of 5 dudes or bigger ones if you want to get them into assault and do something. Just go for free upgrades like burnas regardless of the unit's size if you have the models and a big choppa or pk for the nob if you field a large squad.
I've tried 2-4 units of 5 dudes or 2-4 units of 15 of them, they're good with both sizes but they do different jobs. Mobbing up a unit of 10 and another one of 15 dudes is also a lot of fun.
You've sold me on Stormboyz, what size unit would you recommend?
I've tried 3x10 with and without zagstruck or a single big unit of 20-30 dudes. The big unit is a bullet magnet, three of them sometimes are more versatile even without their leader, just put a 30 man mob near them in turn 1 if you don't have zagstruk. Both options are solid in my experience, I prefer a single large squad though.
2018/02/01 14:17:58
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Jidmah wrote: Pretty much matches my experience with the SAG. It's a lot better than people give it credit for, since AP-5 actually means no armor saves ever and it pretty much always wounds on 3+ with d3 damage. I like to think of it as a Killsaw with 60" range.
Efficiency-wise it's not any worse than a mek gun or big gun that's not a kannon or kmk. So not awesome, but not "horrendous" either.
It wounds in a 3+? How so?
Average is S7 with S6 still being very likely. Since d3 damage is not dangerous to vehicles at all, you'll usually be killing elite infantry, bikes and stuff like that. Blowing eldar snipers out of cover from 60" away also leaves some emotional scars on your opponent
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2018/02/01 19:48:12
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Geemoney wrote: I have considered taking SAG's with Mek Gunz, since the Big Mek can also fix the guns when the break....
It's about the only synergy the Big Mek has outside of using the KFF. They really should implement an aura ability for him for generic shooting units, like "Dakkaboss" where he lets units re-roll 1's to hit in shooting. Though I guess it would just make KMK even more must taken than they already are now.
2018/02/01 22:20:51
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
mrtomski wrote: I haven't used the SAG but isn't the problem with just just hitting things?
Hollow One thanks for the write up on the Australian tournament, I'm basically in the process of building a very similar list to you.
I was thinking a couple of units of Komandos would be a good idea, have you tried using these?
Interesting that you feel 60 boyz on foot is enough, I've got 60 boys ready to go and I was thinking I'd need one more squad, or possibly 2 additional 10 man squads which I could choose to mob up, or just sit on objectives.
You've sold me on Stormboyz, what size unit would you recommend?
Finally jet wise I was thinking a bomber might help fill the gap we have against high save high T, do you think if you removed the dakka jet it would have had a big impact on your games?
I have not yet tried kommandos, it would be a nightmare to buy an amount that I would consider useful (like ensuring morale isnt an issue etc) and I have not proxied them before. I think SemperMortis has a lot of experience with Kommandos and he's the one to ask, although he has pure green tide with no support except weirdboyz I think. If I was to use them, I would consider them as stormboy substitutes as I feel they do the same role.
I think 60 boyz on foot is enough only if I am bringing 60 stormboyz. I think in general stormboyz are just better than boyz in my list. As for how many? I really don't know. Consider the speed of play of the army and how long your tournament rounds are (i played 2.5 hours). I brought 120 boyz with magnetised movement trays and almost all my games BARELY finished (including short cutting combat a lot of the time). It is a nightmare of an army to play, and the more boyz the more dice, it becomes unplayable. Finishing games in 2.5 hours is hard (ITC is 6 rounds). My goal is to bring as little as 90 storm/boyz for my next tournament to speed up the list and just enjoy the games more.
I think damage output wise, removing the dakkajet and replacing it with boyz/stormboyz is correct (or three weirdboyz, or 4 KMK, or another squad of tankbustas etc). The way my list was built, the mortal wounds from bombs in a blitza/burna are not that important, and often it was impossible to fly over the unit you are trying to bomb, especially if your opponent is good. I enjoyed the freedom of movement with my dakkajet, the bombs would reduce or even remove that freedom. However that freedom is really only important in ITC missions (even maelstrom the dakkajet is relatively useless).
2018/02/01 22:21:07
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
Geemoney wrote: I have considered taking SAG's with Mek Gunz, since the Big Mek can also fix the guns when the break....
It's about the only synergy the Big Mek has outside of using the KFF. They really should implement an aura ability for him for generic shooting units, like "Dakkaboss" where he lets units re-roll 1's to hit in shooting. Though I guess it would just make KMK even more must taken than they already are now.
Maybe it wouldn’t work on grot units?
40k drinking game: take a shot everytime a book references Skitarii using transports.
2018/02/01 23:17:16
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
grendel083 wrote: I feel a Shokk Attack would work much better if a Big Mek could take 1-3 Ammo Runts.
Runts and Squigs seem to be a really good and characterful mechanic for Orks, and I wish GW would make more use of them in the rules.
Grot Auto-loader upgrade. Modelled by a cage stuffed full of grots which are dropped into the gun automatically. Same effect as ammo runt, can be used 3 times. Make it GW
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2018/02/03 04:34:50
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)
mrtomski wrote: I haven't used the SAG but isn't the problem with just just hitting things?
Hollow One thanks for the write up on the Australian tournament, I'm basically in the process of building a very similar list to you.
I was thinking a couple of units of Komandos would be a good idea, have you tried using these?
Interesting that you feel 60 boyz on foot is enough, I've got 60 boys ready to go and I was thinking I'd need one more squad, or possibly 2 additional 10 man squads which I could choose to mob up, or just sit on objectives.
You've sold me on Stormboyz, what size unit would you recommend?
Finally jet wise I was thinking a bomber might help fill the gap we have against high save high T, do you think if you removed the dakka jet it would have had a big impact on your games?
I have not yet tried kommandos, it would be a nightmare to buy an amount that I would consider useful (like ensuring morale isnt an issue etc) and I have not proxied them before. I think SemperMortis has a lot of experience with Kommandos and he's the one to ask, although he has pure green tide with no support except weirdboyz I think. If I was to use them, I would consider them as stormboy substitutes as I feel they do the same role.
I think 60 boyz on foot is enough only if I am bringing 60 stormboyz. I think in general stormboyz are just better than boyz in my list. As for how many? I really don't know. Consider the speed of play of the army and how long your tournament rounds are (i played 2.5 hours). I brought 120 boyz with magnetised movement trays and almost all my games BARELY finished (including short cutting combat a lot of the time). It is a nightmare of an army to play, and the more boyz the more dice, it becomes unplayable. Finishing games in 2.5 hours is hard (ITC is 6 rounds). My goal is to bring as little as 90 storm/boyz for my next tournament to speed up the list and just enjoy the games more.
I think damage output wise, removing the dakkajet and replacing it with boyz/stormboyz is correct (or three weirdboyz, or 4 KMK, or another squad of tankbustas etc). The way my list was built, the mortal wounds from bombs in a blitza/burna are not that important, and often it was impossible to fly over the unit you are trying to bomb, especially if your opponent is good. I enjoyed the freedom of movement with my dakkajet, the bombs would reduce or even remove that freedom. However that freedom is really only important in ITC missions (even maelstrom the dakkajet is relatively useless).
I proxy Boyz for Kommandos because the difference between the two models is...marginal at the most and realistically why do they sell a kit of 5 boyz models for that much when the sculpt isnt that different? But you are right, there is really only two ways to play Kommandos right now. 1 is the MSU where you save them and drop them strategically around the board on objectives or against really squishy heavy weapons or vehicles. The other is MBU, (Multiple BIG units ) and this is how I play them, its basically no different then a Green tide list except I don't have to spend 2-3 turns foot slogging up the board and getting blown to pieces, I show up whichever turn I want with 90 Kommandos and 30 Boyz and roll 7 Charges with rerolls and 1 (if its a good roll) with a command point reroll to almost always guarantee 4+ get into CC. Once in CC They spread out and engage as many units as they physically can so that the units that didn't get their charges off don't get deleted off the board. I team that up with either More boyz who "Da Jump" the following turn or I have tried using 50 Stormboyz in 2 units with a KFF Big Mek on bike backing them up to give them a 5++ save against shooting. Ive also been toying with the idea of using my 5 KMKs with that list in order to hold back field objectives AND have a bit of Dakka to blast a hole in infantry screens or just remove a unit that is slowing down my advance. Ohh and I always bring at least 1 Weirdboy, usually 2.
