Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I use my dakka jet basically as a specture gun ship on close air support duty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Other than filling out fast attack slots, or avoiding FW if it's not allowed, is there any reason to ever take a DeffKopta over an empty Chinork?

fluff, but otherwise no. Koptas are about 50% over priced. They effectively do as much dmg in CC as a terminator if you pay for the Klaw, but cost more then twice as much (closer to 3 times as much) ohh, and they have a weaker save which reduces their durability compared to terminators who can at least survive plasma and other anti-tank weaponry due to a good save/Invuln.

The deffkoptas come with bombs for free now. Which I think makes them more valuable. You outflank 5 of these, fly over a squad of guys coming on to the table and drop 25d6 on a unit of 10 or more looking for 6's to cause mortal wounds. Then you get to shoot 10 rokkets at someone.

The warkopta would be better if it had the hard to hit special rule, hover mode, and could move and shoot its heavy weapons with no negative. At best, its a landspeeder with heavy weapons and can trans port 10 models. You could use it to drop a unit on turn 2 earliest on the table some where. It doesn't have the open top rule like it used to have so you can't use it to transport a shooty unit.

Personally, last edition I used to to deep strike my burna boyz and put 10 burns into someone while inside. Basically a ork version of a heldrake, Local players hated that thing with a passion.

 Glitcha wrote:

You outflank 5 of these (deffkoptas), fly over a squad of guys coming on to the table and drop 25d6 on a unit of 10 or more looking for 6's to cause mortal wounds. Then you get to shoot 10 rokkets at someone.

You can't do it because outflanking is not a move but a deployment option. So, you simply appear 12"(iirc) within the board edge and 9"+ away from enemy models. No bomb drops on turn you outflank.

 Glitcha wrote:
The deffkoptas come with bombs for free now. Which I think makes them more valuable. You outflank 5 of these, fly over a squad of guys coming on to the table and drop 25d6 on a unit of 10 or more looking for 6's to cause mortal wounds. Then you get to shoot 10 rokkets at someone.

Even if you could do that, were talking about roughly 3 mortal wounds from bombs and three to four rokkits hits for just a little less than 400 points.

Makes a morkanaut look cheap as chips.

5 Deffkoptas also have no morale mitigation of their own and rely on units within 6”. The ideal target for the bombs is a unit of 5 TEQ, but unless you’re against pure GK any unit like that should be screened, in a transport, or out of range. Even if you gib a bunch of termies, you still probably haven’t quite made your points back, and you’ve subtracted a lot of points away from any alpha strike or objective holders.

Deff Koptas do mortal wounds on 5+ I believe, and when armed with Rokkitz and Klaw they are like 90pts so 5 of them you are investing 450pts into a unit that can't shoot, cant assault and has a one and done bomb that does a mortal wound on a 5+......Trust me I LOVE the model, I love the idea of them, but they are just hot garbage. 4+ armor on a model that costs 1.5 to 2.25 as much as a terminator is ridiculous.

Is the mega dread any good? Was thinking it might make a sweet centerpiece model surrounded by a few killa kans, perhaps two 3 man squads.

And if im using da jump on a big squad with boys (30+10 who have merged) would shootas or choppas be more effective?

 ThePie wrote:
Is the mega dread any good? Was thinking it might make a sweet centerpiece model surrounded by a few killa kans, perhaps two 3 man squads.

And if im using da jump on a big squad with boys (30+10 who have merged) would shootas or choppas be more effective?

I am not sure how well the mega dread is doing. I havent seen much about it. In my local meta people are saying to stay away from it but thats going to differ base on who you are playing.
if you are jumping boys I am assuming you are jumping them into combat therefore I would say sluga choppa.

 ThePie wrote:
Is the mega dread any good? Was thinking it might make a sweet centerpiece model surrounded by a few killa kans, perhaps two 3 man squads.

And if im using da jump on a big squad with boys (30+10 who have merged) would shootas or choppas be more effective?

FW hasn't graced us with Mega-dred rules yet in 8th (or looted wagons, or grot bombs, etc.). We do have the mekka-dred which is very similar. I find that using the megacharga can help give a turn one charge and the rattler cannon is a pretty solid gun since the dred has a BS 4+

Does the old saying boyz before toyz still hold true?

RiderOrk wrote:
Does the old saying boyz before toyz still hold true?

Yes. Currently there is much crying an gnashing of teeth from non Ork players about mass boys lists.

 warhead01 wrote:

RiderOrk wrote:
Does the old saying boyz before toyz still hold true?

Yes. Currently there is much crying an gnashing of teeth from non Ork players about mass boys lists.

Lol there is a lot of crying from like 3 people, tops.

The saying could literally not be more true than it is now. Boyz before toyz. Boyz before everything.

Is it always better to keep battlewagons with ard case? Was thinking avout putting kill cannons and shootas on one and putting a tank buster team in it for a fire base, or perhaps getting the fw super kannon.

Was planning on getting the speed kult battleforce and was figuring putting tank busters in transports is the most optimal way to run them, so i can get some use out of the models. Hopefully shooty battlewagons get buffed in codex cuz they look way cooler than barebones ones.

I would say a battlewagon that delivers HQ/weirdboyz, has a 'ard case, and a kill kannon is arguably worth bringing. I wouldnt add any other shootas or rokkits, or use the battlewagon as an open topped.

 ThePie wrote:
Is it always better to keep battlewagons with ard case? Was thinking avout putting kill cannons and shootas on one and putting a tank buster team in it for a fire base, or perhaps getting the fw super kannon.

Was planning on getting the speed kult battleforce and was figuring putting tank busters in transports is the most optimal way to run them, so i can get some use out of the models. Hopefully shooty battlewagons get buffed in codex cuz they look way cooler than barebones ones.

Definitely. T8 vs T7 actually makes a difference since armored BWs are more resilient against both S7 and S8 hits. I'd take a BW only to carry choppy units, in order to benefit from the 'ard case upgrade.

Shooty units like bustas or gitz are fine in trukks since T6 vs T7 is not that different, only S6 and S7 weapons wound on a different result, but not S8 ones which are very common. A trukk is also half the points of a BW so you can spread out your bustas without putting all the eggs in the same basket. Two units of bustas in two trukks tend to perform better than a large blob in a BW, with two trukks you'll also have four more wounds than a single BW, two bigshootas and the ramshackle rule for just +3points. To carry shooty units two trukks are way better than a wagon, there's no competition.

ThePie wrote:Is it always better to keep battlewagons with ard case? Was thinking avout putting kill cannons and shootas on one and putting a tank buster team in it for a fire base, or perhaps getting the fw super kannon.

Was planning on getting the speed kult battleforce and was figuring putting tank busters in transports is the most optimal way to run them, so i can get some use out of the models. Hopefully shooty battlewagons get buffed in codex cuz they look way cooler than barebones ones.

Currently, all your battlewagons should have 'ard case, T8 is what's keeping them alive. Anything that wants to shoot out of its transport should have a trukk instead.

Don't worry about how to build your model though - the battlewagon is a very modular kit, the ram/deff rolla, the 'ard case and all turrets don't need to be glued on, so you can reconfigure the wagon for each game without needing a single magnet.
The only tricky bits are the "tank-comander"-big shoota and the grabbin' klaw because they are a little top-heavy. If you weigh them down or add some sprue to make them stay in place, you can plug&play those too,
I have no experience with the FW add-ons though.

hollow one wrote:I would say a battlewagon that delivers HQ/weirdboyz, has a 'ard case, and a kill kannon is arguably worth bringing. I wouldnt add any other shootas or rokkits, or use the battlewagon as an open topped.

Weirdboyz have no business being near a battlewagon. You would just deny yourself a smite during the turn you are transporting them.
I wouldn't really put any guns on there, since the wagon usually ends up dead or in combat. The kill kannon also isn't good enough to justify the loss in transport capacity, plus you usually want to be advancing your wagons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Definitely. T8 vs T7 actually makes a difference since armored BWs are more resilient against both S7 and S8 hits. I'd take a BW only to carry choppy units, in order to benefit from the 'ard case upgrade.

More resilient against S4 is even more important. The battle wagon only has a 4+ save, so shooting it with bolters is still a very good way to plonk wounds off it. Cutting that in half usually means the difference between sitting in a crater and a battlewagon deff rolling a bunch of marines.

 Jidmah wrote:

ThePie wrote:Is it always better to keep battlewagons with ard case? Was thinking avout putting kill cannons and shootas on one and putting a tank buster team in it for a fire base, or perhaps getting the fw super kannon.

Was planning on getting the speed kult battleforce and was figuring putting tank busters in transports is the most optimal way to run them, so i can get some use out of the models. Hopefully shooty battlewagons get buffed in codex cuz they look way cooler than barebones ones.

Currently, all your battlewagons should have 'ard case, T8 is what's keeping them alive. Anything that wants to shoot out of its transport should have a trukk instead.

Don't worry about how to build your model though - the battlewagon is a very modular kit, the ram/deff rolla, the 'ard case and all turrets don't need to be glued on, so you can reconfigure the wagon for each game without needing a single magnet.
The only tricky bits are the "tank-comander"-big shoota and the grabbin' klaw because they are a little top-heavy. If you weigh them down or add some sprue to make them stay in place, you can plug&play those too,
I have no experience with the FW add-ons though.

hollow one wrote:I would say a battlewagon that delivers HQ/weirdboyz, has a 'ard case, and a kill kannon is arguably worth bringing. I wouldnt add any other shootas or rokkits, or use the battlewagon as an open topped.

Weirdboyz have no business being near a battlewagon. You would just deny yourself a smite during the turn you are transporting them.
I wouldn't really put any guns on there, since the wagon usually ends up dead or in combat. The kill kannon also isn't good enough to justify the loss in transport capacity, plus you usually want to be advancing your wagons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Definitely. T8 vs T7 actually makes a difference since armored BWs are more resilient against both S7 and S8 hits. I'd take a BW only to carry choppy units, in order to benefit from the 'ard case upgrade.

More resilient against S4 is even more important. The battle wagon only has a 4+ save, so shooting it with bolters is still a very good way to plonk wounds off it. Cutting that in half usually means the difference between sitting in a crater and a battlewagon deff rolling a bunch of marines.

Hmm alright, all very valid points. A few other questions....

What do you think about putting a super kannon on a battlewagon? Since i was thinking about having a list mixxed with footslogging boys and killakans, having some extra ranged fire support would be nice, the mek gunz are so expensive afterall and it looks cool.

Im worried about how to increase survival on the bw, since my meks will prob be foot slogging with the rest of my army im afraid it will get shot up if advances upp ahead alone, perhaps better to use da jump on it?

I don't have any experience with playing the supa kannon, but on paper it definitely looks ok. The SAG mek from the battleforce can stand next to it and repair it while shooting his SAG at the same range. Might actually work.

All walkers, including kanz, artillery pieces, trukks and planes draw fire from your battlewagon, so if you have enough stuff that your opponent wants to shot with his or her multi-damage weapons, feel free to drive it forward as well. If everything else you have is infantry or bikes, the supa kannon is probably the better option.

Note that you can only jump infantry units, but you could always jump a unit of boyz to distract from the battlewagon.

Another question, how many big meks with force fields are enough. I was thinking one could stay with mek guns to protect and repair them. One could run with meka dread and killa kans. Then im thinking if i should have a third one to protect boy hordes (thinking about running 2 30 blobs)

 ThePie wrote:
Another question, how many big meks with force fields are enough. I was thinking one could stay with mek guns to protect and repair them. One could run with meka dread and killa kans. Then im thinking if i should have a third one to protect boy hordes (thinking about running 2 30 blobs)

Depends on your army comp, but generally you want around two KFF Big Meks to ensure that whatever blobs you have are within the 9" bubble of protection. I wouldn't suggest keeping it behind to protect the Mek Gunz since they're more likely to die from getting charged in combat than from shooting, where the Big Mek won't be able to do much. I would suggest in your case that you have one run with the meka dred and the killa kanz and the other with the boy squads. The Meka dred could also just take a KFF itself, so that you have less babysitting and more extra points to play with if you're low on points.

 ThePie wrote:


What do you think about putting a super kannon on a battlewagon? Since i was thinking about having a list mixxed with footslogging boys and killakans, having some extra ranged fire support would be nice, the mek gunz are so expensive afterall and it looks cool.

I've never tried but it looks very terrbile on paper. 191 points for an average of 2-3 hits at S8 AP-3 3 damage? No thanks, with lesser points you can field 4 KMK which grant an average of 7 hits, same AP and D3 damage, basically you'll get twice the damage output, the KMKs can also split fire since each weapons work as a single unit. They also have way more wounds in total. The supa kannon only has a better range but usually the 36'' range that mek gunz have is enough.

A unit of bustas in a trukk with two bomb squigs have a better damage output than a wagon with supakannon for the same amount of points. It's definitely less resilient but against vehicles is way more effective.

The supa kannon should be something like S10 (probably even more) AP-4 D6 damage at least. Otherwise rokkits and KMKs are way more effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePie wrote:
Another question, how many big meks with force fields are enough. I was thinking one could stay with mek guns to protect and repair them. One could run with meka dread and killa kans. Then im thinking if i should have a third one to protect boy hordes (thinking about running 2 30 blobs)

Usually with two you should cover the entire army. KFFs for mek gunz aren't usually a good idea, the artillery is durable and cheap enough to get its points back without protections. It may need screeners more than invulns or repairs rolls.

 ThePie wrote:
Is it always better to keep battlewagons with ard case? Was thinking avout putting kill cannons and shootas on one and putting a tank buster team in it for a fire base, or perhaps getting the fw super kannon.

Was planning on getting the speed kult battleforce and was figuring putting tank busters in transports is the most optimal way to run them, so i can get some use out of the models. Hopefully shooty battlewagons get buffed in codex cuz they look way cooler than barebones ones.

Battlewagon really only has two roles. As a delivery system it has 'ard case and deffrolla, after it's contents are dropped off it's time is best spent bumping into MEQ. As a gunboat you absolutely need to have occupants that help supplement dakka, ideally tankbustas. If you don't mind saving a reroll for their number of auti hits then some Burna Boyz could be sweet only because of the negatitive hit modifiers that have got soo popular.

Mind you, if you are going to take one battlewagon then you need an army based around three of them and praying for turn one and also that you are facing somebody not spamming anti tank for some reason. Highly competitive meta's will have anti tank in quantity.

 Rismonite wrote:


Mind you, if you are going to take one battlewagon then you need an army based around three of them and praying for turn one and also that you are facing somebody not spamming anti tank for some reason. Highly competitive meta's will have anti tank in quantity.

Exactly this. When I play my wagons they're always in a list with only T8 and T5 bodies. BWs, nauts, trukks, kanz, buggies/skorchas and artillery, planes could work as well but I don't own any of them yet. I agree it's also very meta dependent, in my area hordes freak out people and massive anti infantry is very common. There isn't anything like the 20-30 dark reapers or the 4x melta dominions spams luckily.

 Rismonite wrote:
If you don't mind saving a reroll for their number of auti hits then some Burna Boyz could be sweet only because of the negatitive hit modifiers that have got soo popular.

Burna boyz don't do jack against things with stacked negative hit modifiers because those things tend to be T5+ and have a 3+ armor save. Auto-hitting doesn't do much when you have to wound on 5+ and then bounce off armor.
You don't really need anything specific to handle infantry with -2 to hit - just run them over with a deff rolla when you are within 9" already.

I have played burna boyz in three separate games, and they have never failed to disappoint - unless you are trying to kill T3 infantry with 5+ saves or worse.

From a competitive standpoint the Battle Wagon is TRASH, don't even bring it for anything.

From a casual perspective the Battlewagon is still trash but can be fun as a delivery system from HQs and really choppy units like Nobz.

The rest of this is going to be from a competitive view point so don't get your knickers in a twist if you disagree since your casual game was awesome that one time.

Battlewagons rely on T8 to survive due to their terrible 4+ save. They are NOT worth taking only for a delivery system because after that they are just a giant 180pt waste of space on the board, and before you tell me "Well they can assault to!" they suck in assault unless you put a Deffrolla on the front and even then its mediocre at best for 180pts.

as bad as it is in CC, its even worse in the shooting phase. A Battlwagon with a Killkannon, Kannon and 4 Rokkitz costs a mind numbing 239pts. For that cost it puts out 4 S8 AP-2 D3 damage shots at range 24 hitting on 5s, 1 S8 -2 D6 dmg shot at 36inch range hitting on 5s or D6 S4 shots hitting on 5s AND D6 S7 -2 2 damage shots at range 24.

So for starters you are extremely short ranged, next against a T7 3+ Vehicle you will average 1.5ish damage a turn from the Rokkitz, .5 dmg from the Kannon and .8ish damage from the Kill Kannon. Grand total of just under 3 damage.

For the SupaKannon, you are looking at 191pts unless you add in some Big Shootas for some other plink shots for fun which will raise your cost by 24pts which gives you 4 S5 shots hitting a turn. But the actual SupaKannon? it would be good on a SM list, but for orkz? not so much. You will average 7 shots a turn and 2.33 hits a turn, against elite infantry (what else are you shooting this thing at?) you will wound 2 times on average but against that 2+ save you will only get 1 wound and 1 dead Elite Infantry.

So almost 200pt model is able to kill a Terminator a turn.

So, since there were quite a few people who said ork boyz aren't OP. Please tell me, a single unit in the entire game with better damage to T3S6 than ork boyz. Not saying they are broken and have to be nerfed. Just want an accurate stat for the S rank of my damage spreadsheet.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So, since there were quite a few people who said ork boyz aren't OP. Please tell me, a single unit in the entire game with better damage to T3S6 than ork boyz. Not saying they are broken and have to be nerfed. Just want an accurate stat for the S rank of my damage spreadsheet.

Does that relate to Ork Tactics?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So, since there were quite a few people who said ork boyz aren't OP. Please tell me, a single unit in the entire game with better damage to T3S6 than ork boyz. Not saying they are broken and have to be nerfed. Just want an accurate stat for the S rank of my damage spreadsheet.

Hows about a mob of ork boys that is out or charge range

Sure a boy may hit four times in cc.... but realistically its going to spend two turns out of that combat getting there, and then the last turn trying to run for an objective of some sort backfield. Even if its twice as killy as some other unit, its only going to get to be that way for half the time or less, and not get to reach out and put it hits where you want them to.

any boys that die before they get there are a complete loss and orks have no reliable way to shoot screens off the things that they actually want to charge.

Are you seriously having trouble playing against orks?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So, since there were quite a few people who said ork boyz aren't OP. Please tell me, a single unit in the entire game with better damage to T3S6 than ork boyz. Not saying they are broken and have to be nerfed. Just want an accurate stat for the S rank of my damage spreadsheet.

Please don't derail this thread, go to the one that is actually discussing that topic right now.

So Ork boyz are literally the strongest unit in the entire game against low armor hordes aka basically every screen unit, which is a must to play 8th ed 40k. Got it If I was incorrect, I would've been given a single example of something doing more pure damage.

And how does that not relate to ork tactics. I'm talking about an ork unit and it's viability compared to the rest of the units in the game. Why do I only care about damage here? Because it's one of the 2 things that's easy to quantify.
Here's an example of what I have

I tried doing the same thing with damage, however it is way more tricky than just taking all the units I have written up and marking them based on that, because ork shooting really lowers the overall average.
So I settled on getting the S rank as the best unit damage wise against: Hordes, Elites and Tanks. And the F rank is just the lowest rank I've written up because who cares about the F units anyway.

Feel free to chime in what you think are the best units damage wise against elites (T4S2+5++ unless you have a better example of a common elite unit) and tanks(T7S3+)

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
So, since there were quite a few people who said ork boyz aren't OP. Please tell me, a single unit in the entire game with better damage to T3S6 than ork boyz. Not saying they are broken and have to be nerfed. Just want an accurate stat for the S rank of my damage spreadsheet.

Any unit with a gun that is more than 1" away from the enemy.

If they magically teleport into combat however I doubt there are many. Genestealers? Bloodletters on the charge perhaps?

Also, on a related note; how many units are T3S6? Aren't the most common T3S5?