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That's a good point about T3S5. T3S6 is gaunts, boyz, cultists, brimstones(kinda). Those are VERY common. T3S5 is IG, which is basically every single imperium army.

Bloodletters aren't great vs hordes:
0.1397 without buff compared to ork's 0.1852 and that's with the charge buff for letters.
For 20+ it is 0.1667 vs 0.2469.

Genestealers are even worse. Their weapons are even better statistically due to the 1 AP.
However:
Vanilla: 0.1111( 0.1852)
10+: 0.1481(0.2469.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what do you think is the best anti-horde unit damage wise then? For now I have Fully buffed Pink Horrors as the best. But I'm not sure that's fair.

Lol Boyz are T4S6 dude! Don't be dropping yourself that 1T!

Are these numbers for hordes the T3S6 or T3S5? I'd say the latter is more common just because I play against IG and Ulthwe (Guardians) the most often lol but I could be wrong. It depends on the particular meta I suppose.

For letters you pay the extra point for the greater flexibility (AP-3 weapons is soooo good).and slightly greater durability against high damage, AP weapons.

I don't know Nids as well but can't stealers take some bonkers upgrades to add more attacks?

Anyways what do I think is the best anti-horde unit damage-wise? What sort of horde are we talking here? A melee horde or infantry? Boyz have got to be up there but their problem remains getting into combat. It's funny, I think in actual gameplay terms there's a strong argument for Shoota Boyz over Sluggas. The threat of shootas is minimal but it can add up over a horde and it gives them something to do when they're not running up the field.

AssCan Razorbacks must be up there in terms of horde destruction, Guilliman makes it silly. Same with those Primaris dudes that put out 12 shots a piece. Infantry are decent at range, particularly with orders and if they have space to retreat and fire again without getting charged.

I'm not sure really, I'm not a maths guy though I'm afraid.

Yeah, but I meant more about the S6+ which they have. My bad.
These numbers are T3S6.
And yeah, bloodletters are great, I agree. However against hordes they can't take over boyz.

Against T3S5:
Letters are the same: 0.1397
Boyz drop to: 0.1481
Genestealers are 0.0925

With x+ models buffs:
Letters: 0.1667
Boyz drop to: 0.1975
Genestealers are 0.1234

So still king.

I was going to suggest genestealers being as good as or better against horde infantry, but I could be wrong. Boyz are great value for killing hordes. On the other hand even default stealers are very fast, and super fast as Kraken, they hit on a 2+ with a broodlord nearby (why wouldn't there be?) with extra attacks if they're above 10 models. The other big benefit is boyz aren't great against armour, where stealers' weight of rending (and -1AP) attacks make them awesome against everything they charge.

~~~

Anyway, does anybody think meganobz are worth taking on foot in a walker spam list? In any other context I'd say no, but they add to the saturation of heavy armour and are a bit cheaper per model than a killa kan to provide extra bodies without breaking the theme too much.

Just throwing that out there. I'd love to do an elite, low model count ork army, and I really like the look and idea of meganobz

20+ boyz against T3S5 0.1975
10+ Genestealers with BL against T3S5 0.1543

Yeah... Boyz are prettyyyyyyy prettyyyyy good damage wise against hordes. If you pile in all the supporting cast: banner, warpath, thraka they become stupid powerful. But they don't even need any of the buffs to be more effective than people with the buffs.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
I was going to suggest genestealers being as good as or better against horde infantry, but I could be wrong. Boyz are great value for killing hordes. On the other hand even default stealers are very fast, and super fast as Kraken, they hit on a 2+ with a broodlord nearby (why wouldn't there be?) with extra attacks if they're above 10 models. The other big benefit is boyz aren't great against armour, where stealers' weight of rending (and -1AP) attacks make them awesome against everything they charge.

~~~

Anyway, does anybody think meganobz are worth taking on foot in a walker spam list? In any other context I'd say no, but they add to the saturation of heavy armour and are a bit cheaper per model than a killa kan to provide extra bodies without breaking the theme too much.

Just throwing that out there. I'd love to do an elite, low model count ork army, and I really like the look and idea of meganobz

I think the problem is that being T4 compared to the T5+ of the rest of your walkers means that all the anti-infantry fire will still go into them and do meaningful damage. Even with 3 wounds and 2+ save, being wounded on 3's and 4's rather than 4's and 5's makes a big difference. They are even more vulnerable to overcharged plasma and lascannons than the rest of your walker list since they'll be wounded on 2's. It also doesn't help that they're directly competing with your walkers for the same targets in CC, while not adding anything significant in terms of shooting (if any, assuming you're taking the double killsaw loadout). Meganobz are in a really weird place right now and outside of a fringe mech list I don't think they have a place footslogging. Hopefully they get a tellyporta strike option in our upcoming codex or our transports get a significant price decrease.

Walkers are allready so bad you can't spoil them with meganobz.

 koooaei wrote:
Walkers are allready so bad you can't spoil them with meganobz.

I guess, but you do want to saturate the board with relatively high T multi-wound models, and Meganobz are just a smidge away from reaching that. Besides, more Kanz are better IMO, and at least they can shoot,

Thanks guys. Here's hoping the codex provides some good sub faction rules

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
20+ boyz against T3S5 0.1975
10+ Genestealers with BL against T3S5 0.1543

Yeah... Boyz are prettyyyyyyy prettyyyyy good damage wise against hordes. If you pile in all the supporting cast: banner, warpath, thraka they become stupid powerful. But they don't even need any of the buffs to be more effective than people with the buffs.

No doubt Boyz are powerful but they don't move anywhere near as fast and only have one method of "deep strike" that can be negated and/or can fail. If 100% of the Genestealers get into combat, but only 50% of the Boyz manage to these numbers become somewhat different.

They lack versatility, like most of the Ork index to be honest. Basic, strong units that look good on paper but are easily countered or ignored. Boyz are strong if the enemy allows them to close the distance and pummel them with no problems. Once the enemy starts using shenanigans, intelligent tactics (such as walking backwards and shooting),or counterplays them, Boyz they are incredibly easy to deal with. Perhaps too easy.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
20+ boyz against T3S5 0.1975
10+ Genestealers with BL against T3S5 0.1543

Yeah... Boyz are prettyyyyyyy prettyyyyy good damage wise against hordes. If you pile in all the supporting cast: banner, warpath, thraka they become stupid powerful. But they don't even need any of the buffs to be more effective than people with the buffs.

No doubt Boyz are powerful but they don't move anywhere near as fast and only have one method of "deep strike" that can be negated and/or can fail. If 100% of the Genestealers get into combat, but only 50% of the Boyz manage to these numbers become somewhat different.

They lack versatility, like most of the Ork index to be honest. Basic, strong units that look good on paper but are easily countered or ignored. Boyz are strong if the enemy allows them to close the distance and pummel them with no problems. Once the enemy starts using shenanigans, intelligent tactics (such as walking backwards and shooting),or counterplays them, Boyz they are incredibly easy to deal with. Perhaps too easy.

exactly. The only people having a hard time dealing with Ork Hordes are those who brought a net list that features TONS of anti vehicle weapons and not enough anti infantry weapons. Which, btw, is also my favorite part right now about competitive 40k. Nothing like watching a Ultrasmurf player complaining the entire game that he has to shoot his Lascannons and Plasma guns into ork boyz because I didn't even bring anything above T4 except for HQs

Genestealers are great, but they do have some glaring weaknesses.

The broodlord is not so good, very expensive for what you get.

The genestealers are not great vs highT good save target, they are better elite and infantery.

Bring glass cannons they do not like massed small arms fire.

The army has trouble keeping 2 units of genestealers alive. They really want catalyst and the counter attack wrecks them once you have 2 fights.

Boys do not share their streanghts, but boys arr cheap and they have the now with powerclaw/big choppa. With the merge stratagem you can even have 2 in one unit.

Also if the enemy has 2 charge-able units next to each other and you roll that 9 after the re-rolls - you basically won any game. You declare 1 of the units but actually charge both. You kill one and suround a model of the other with 3 of the 30(or so) boyz. The opponent can't shoot you and can't retreat. You kill the other unit in the your opponent's turn and proceed to do the same the following turns.

Regardless of any utility or durability. Ork boyz are the strongest unit in the game by far damage wise against 6+,5+, and sometimes even 4+ stuff and that CANNOT be ignored.

 Niiai wrote:
Genestealers are great, but they do have some glaring weaknesses.

The broodlord is not so good, very expensive for what you get.

The genestealers are not great vs highT good save target, they are better elite and infantery.

Bring glass cannons they do not like massed small arms fire.

The army has trouble keeping 2 units of genestealers alive. They really want catalyst and the counter attack wrecks them once you have 2 fights.

Boys do not share their streanghts, but boys arr cheap and they have the now with powerclaw/big choppa. With the merge stratagem you can even have 2 in one unit.

One or two PC and BC only do very little to vehicles or monstrous creatures. They have the same function as acid maws on genestealers. The additional damage sounds great, but PK is -1 to hit and the BC only -1 to AP. In reality you can't expect you nob to do more than 2 damage to a hard target, if he hits at all in the one round he usually gets to fight per game.

Also, everything you just wrote about stealers is also true for boyz, you pay the additional points for the much faster speed (8" plus no downside advances), the 5++ save and the better AP. I wouldn't call either unit superior to the other, we just bring twice as many boyz to have roughly the same number in combat than gene stealers.

I'd call one unit easily superior. One sees play in every tournament list and the other one doesn't(yes it's a byproduct of the most of the ork index sucking but if genestealers were as good as boyz, damn straight they'd be used a lot more often)
Genestealer durability is AWFUL. And the damage is subpar to orks against any target in the game.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Also if the enemy has 2 charge-able units next to each other and you roll that 9 after the re-rolls - you basically won any game.

Yeah, if your opponent is a complete idiot, you have 50% chance to win the game.

You declare 1 of the units but actually charge both. You kill one and suround a model of the other with 3 of the 30(or so) boyz. The opponent can't shoot you and can't retreat. You kill the other unit in the your opponent's turn and proceed to do the same the following turns.

So, how is your ork army coming along? You must have an impressive win-loss record to show by now with all those spread sheets and tactics of yours.

I'd just like to point out that, even assuming your opponent made such a grave mistake, your tactic requires you align those three boyz perfectly around the target model, otherwise it can move (for example at 4,8 and 12 o'clock) - basic geometry. You also need to have all your boyz outside of 1" the model you are trying to surround, otherwise your opponent will remove it as casualty or even make your strategy impossible by piling in.
Considering all that, you need to make your 3" move with at least two boyz past the model you want to surround, which is at least ~1.98" for a 25mm base, at least 2.2" for 32mm and 2.59" for 40mm . So best case, you have about a 1" margin to compensate for error, terrain and low charge rolls. For 25mm bases you might even succeed with just one boy running all the around the enemy model, but you have about 0.2" margin for error.
If you have less than two boyz close enough or other enemy models are too close (must not be farther from closest model after pile-in), your opponent didn't leave room to perfectly surround his models or the unit is not on circular 25mm-40mm bases (bike might or might not work, depending on positioning), the tactic is impossible to pull off.
Also important to consider - the unit you are trying to surround still gets to fight, so that might backfire if it's a large unit pox walkers, gaunts, horrors or cultists. Or something that's acutally good in combat.

So feel free to convince me with a photo from a game where you actually did this, I'm very sure that the tactic is no more than something to keep in mind for corner cases, not something you can pull of regularly, let alone against an opponent that has fallen to this before.

Regardless of any utility or durability. Ork boyz are the strongest unit in the game by far damage wise against 6+,5+, and sometimes even 4+ stuff and that CANNOT be ignored.

What point are you trying to make? That a unit that can easily be killed is very dangerous when not killed?
In that case, yes you're right. Also, that ranking is utterly useless because of the total disconnect from actual games.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Also, what do you think is the best anti-horde unit damage wise then? For now I have Fully buffed Pink Horrors as the best. But I'm not sure that's fair.

Hordes are the best option against hordes. If you're trying to kill boyz its really easy, and cheap: slaanesh cultists, first rank second rank guardsman, or 20+ squads of devourer gants.

Boyz will beat all of them in melee combat, but also lose half (or more) of their numbers before they get there. If it was point for point matched on the board, boyz probably lose all those battles due to range alone, but people don't tend to bring that many cultists etc. Boyz have more flexibility in their target priority since they output so many more attacks, but they have much less flexibility in their target priority since they can be so easily screened.

My answer to this argument is that Boyz are in a good spot, and they are not catastrophically overpowered or underpowered. But IMO they are borderline too strong, much like guardsman, cultists, and gants etc.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'd call one unit easily superior. One sees play in every tournament list and the other one doesn't(yes it's a byproduct of the most of the ork index sucking but if genestealers were as good as boyz, damn straight they'd be used a lot more often)

Sure, discard the only reason for us to run that many boyz.
I assure you that ork lists would look the same as tyranid lists, with 3x gretchin for CP and awesome stuff in all other slots.

Genestealer durability is AWFUL. And the damage is subpar to orks against any target in the game.

If T4/5++ is awful, what is T4/6+?

Also "subpar" is a strong word for a unit of gene stealers dealing almost the same damage against most targets as boyz, considering that they have 10 less models and get to keep their horde bonus down to 10 and usually see combat a turn earlier than boyz.

I love how you miss the part that genestealers cost TWICE what boyz cost. Spoilers: 6+->5++ is NOT worth 6 pts. Not in the slightest. They're rank D- against most anti-horde weapons while boyz are C+.

Also, it's literally "have 2 units in charge range". If your opponent has only 1 unit in charge range in the whooole map, that means he's stuck behind it and you'll win the objective game anyway.

And how to surround? Really easy. As long as you roll that 9''. You get 6 '' of free movement during pile in. Then as you did not charge the unit but only pilled into it - you can't even hit it. So the model you surrounded has no way of escaping.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I love how you miss the part that genestealers cost TWICE what boyz cost. Spoilers: 6+->5++ is NOT worth 6 pts. Not in the slightest. They're rank D- against most anti-horde weapons while boyz are C+.

A bit unfair to suggest they're only paying for an invulnerable save. Stealers also get rending claws, free scything talons to use against other invulnerable save units, free acid maws for every 4th model and they move like a fast attack unit. Boyz are a great troop unit, but genestealers are a great troop unit that also function like a fast attack and elite unit at the same time.

Both are great value and belong in the same tier

Well durability wise they are still 12pts for T4S5++. That's the problem with all upgrades in the game. You put on this awesome gun on your dude, however that means his durability goes down the drain as the pts increase but the defensive stats stay the same. Which is why upgrades should be really cheap and really powerful or you'll just see vanilla dudes everywhere. Especially relavant to troops and HQs as those need to be as cheap as posible to fill batallions.

Again, I disagree that genestealers are on the same tier. I'd give you bloodletters on the same tier as boyz. However genestealers have fallen behind quite a bit.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well durability wise they are still 12pts for T4S5++. That's the problem with all upgrades in the game. You put on this awesome gun on your dude, however that means his durability goes down the drain as the pts increase but the defensive stats stay the same. Which is why upgrades should be really cheap and really powerful or you'll just see vanilla dudes everywhere. Especially relavant to troops and HQs as those need to be as cheap as posible to fill batallions.

Again, I disagree that genestealers are on the same tier. I'd give you bloodletters on the same tier as boyz. However genestealers have fallen behind quite a bit.

Fair enough. Boyz are harder to kill point for point and make better objective grabbers (especially with shootas) but until they get useful 'chapter tactics' like stealers have access to I still think they belong in the same tier.

For what it's worth their speed is a defensive asset because they can start killing the units shooting them a least a turn before boyz can. They also get the option of a free 4+ save by sacrificing their advance and charge ability, but I don't think many take that option because speed is so useful for them

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Regardless of any utility or durability. Ork boyz are the strongest unit in the game by far damage wise against 6+,5+, and sometimes even 4+ stuff and that CANNOT be ignored.

Lol I thought this accolade belonged to fully buffed pink horrors?

Or are we just doing melee combat? In which case we absolutely should be the strongest damage dealing unit in the game against hordes, point for point. Its not like our shooting is usable with the - 1 to hit stuff everywhere.

There's a reason Boyz are so strong in terms of damage output and I know you're intelligent enough to get this - when balancing the unit we must consider durability and utility. They are one of the slowest units in the game. They are melee units so do negligible damage outside melee. They have limited options to close the distance to their enemies. All these things mean that the expectation is that half the Boyz (or more) will be dead when you eventually get a unit into combat. So they need to hit hard enough to compensate for this fact.

If a unit is somewhat guaranteed to get into melee in a game *cough* Genestealers, Bloodletters *hack* they too should be priced appropriately.

As to your 'surround a unit with the pile in' tactic, I can't imagine it being possible in a real game. If you're against a gun line army the screen will be so clustered around the edges you won't be able to surround a model I don't think. If the army wants to be in melee combat, you just gave them the charge and they can likely shoot you beforehand too. Of course any unit with fly ignores this. It feels incredibly situational and even then is by no means an auto win.

Oh the pile in tactic is definitelly possible. I've done it more often than not. You present an ugly choice:
either the opponent deploys normally and I might pull the shananigans if I make the charge, or the opponent has to completelly castle in by placing models less than 1'' within each other which very much wrecks the deepstrike deny potential AND both sides need to be covered with 2 dudes at least so I can't get behind the model to surround it anyway.

So either:
1. I might just win turn 1 if I roll the 9'' charge.
2. Your deployment is very suboptimal to defend against deepstrike. You play 3 turns of the game cornered and the timer ends before you can move out because I just keep throwing bodies at you.

And if you say "scouts", well that makes 1. even easier

Why does an opponent need to defend against deep striking so much against Orks?

We aren't demons, we can't deepstrike any unit for CP.

We have Da Jump and Kommandos. The opponent will know if you brought Kommandos straight away from your list. I assume you aren't because they are far worse than Boyz in terms of damage output and they seem to be your favourite unit (also I don't remember you buying any).

So that leaves Da Jump. It's such a popular ability and so widely known I think most opponents can prepare an adequate defence against it now.

Sub-optimal deep strike denial =/= cornered player at all. They can use fast moving units to rush objectives. Or they can overload one flank. Or deploy as far forward as possible and move back every turn while blowing you off the table.

Also if the strategy hinges on the game ending on turn 3 you might as well bin it with the upcoming use of chess clocks. That won't be a thing any more if you're an ITC player.

Finally, the opponent can always spread their units out in a way that denies the best deep strike spots but is not wide open enough for this tactic. You are hoping for a unit within 3" of another for this to work at all correct (3" to get to unit and another 3" to get around the enemy model, give or take)? I have opponents who don't turtle that hard. Even IG ones. They know Orks don't have much deepstrike potential so aren't concerned about it. The games I play tend to be more along the lines of "can the opponent kill the bulk of my army before it arrives and eats them, while dealing with Da Jump annoyances/distractions". You also have to roll high on the charge? Not guaranteed by any stretch.

I have kommandos. They're great, as proven by the very recent results of the 20 kommandos + snikrot lists in GTs.

Please stop being so ignorant that you miss the entire point of this discussion. "What unit is the best damage wise against x so I can use that unit's damage per point number as the "S" rank for the spreadsheet". It is not "Ork boyz are OP and should be nerfed, wtf best unit in the game, damage is all that matters"

I always bring kommandos. Always. Oh and the game still will end on turn 3-ish as the opponent needs to shoot/punch all the orks, which takes a LOT of time. I do not need to have a unit within 3'' of another unit. Unless I'm wrong, all I need is 2 units within 9'' of wherever I deepstrike. I declare one of them as the charge, I roll (hopefully 9''+) and move to both units, engaging one and staying 1'' away from the other, then I pile in and consolidate for a total of 6'' of movement as you do not need to go straight towards the closest model, you just need to get closer to it. 1mm closer is still closer. So you can easily surround a model as long as the base fits between 2 of your opponents models, and thankfully orks have 25mm as their base so that's less than an inch.

Also wtf is "(also I don't remember you buying any)"? Stalker much? I don't tout everything I buy here, lol.

Bloodletters are not nearly as good as boyz. The bl bomb is very powerful, but they are not exactly a versatile unit. You cannot camp an objective with bloodletters for example. The same goes for genestealers.

Boyz are simply very, very good. If Guardsmen gets upped to 5 points per model then I think boyz might well be the best troop choice in the game. They are not OP in my opinion, but if Orks get access to an infiltrate stratagem like "Strike From the Shadows" then boyz will be EXTREMELY unbalanced.

rvd1, would you care to draw a picture of you tactic? I feel like either of us is missing something important here.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I have kommandos. They're great, as proven by the very recent results of the 20 kommandos + snikrot lists in GTs.

Please stop being so ignorant that you miss the entire point of this discussion. "What unit is the best damage wise against x so I can use that unit's damage per point number as the "S" rank for the spreadsheet". It is not "Ork boyz are OP and should be nerfed, wtf best unit in the game, damage is all that matters"

I always bring kommandos. Always. Oh and the game still will end on turn 3-ish as the opponent needs to shoot/punch all the orks, which takes a LOT of time. I do not need to have a unit within 3'' of another unit. Unless I'm wrong, all I need is 2 units within 9'' of wherever I deepstrike. I declare one of them as the charge, I roll (hopefully 9''+) and move to both units, engaging one and staying 1'' away from the other, then I pile in and consolidate for a total of 6'' of movement as you do not need to go straight towards the closest model, you just need to get closer to it. 1mm closer is still closer. So you can easily surround a model as long as the base fits between 2 of your opponents models, and thankfully orks have 25mm as their base so that's less than an inch.

Also wtf is "(also I don't remember you buying any)"? Stalker much? I don't tout everything I buy here, lol.

I just don't remember you saying you purchased any and, for a while, you did tout most of what you owned on here.

If you want to put the highest damaging unit in your "S" rank or whatever then you need to go through every unit, costing it out and doing the maths for it yourself. Your spreadsheet honestly isn't as important as you seem to believe. Haven't you answered the question yourself? Wasn't it Pink Horrors? Move on.

Now if you could stop being so ignorant as to bring your spreadsheet into a discussion that is supposed to focus on Ork Tactica, it'd be appreciated. That is the actual point of the discussion.

Speaking of which, your tactic then seems bogus. If 2 units are side by side and you charge one, how are you surrounding a model without getting further away from the one you charged?

pismakron wrote:
Bloodletters are not nearly as good as boyz. The bl bomb is very powerful, but they are not exactly a versatile unit. You cannot camp an objective with bloodletters for example. The same goes for genestealers.

Boyz are simply very, very good. If Guardsmen gets upped to 5 points per model then I think boyz might well be the best troop choice in the game. They are not OP in my opinion, but if Orks get access to an infiltrate stratagem like "Strike From the Shadows" then boyz will be EXTREMELY unbalanced.

I disagree, particularly on Bloodletters. They are as good at least as Boyz, possibly better. They are far more versatile than Boyz because they have AP on their weapons so can damage armour somewhat reliably. They can make charges far easier. You can also camp an objective better with Bloodletters than Boyz against most weapons because of their invuln.

for the additional 6pts a model you get alot more than just the 5++, The speed alone almost makes the points worth it, and the -1ap makes a greater variety of targets vulnerable. by the time a slogging ork unit gets to melee thye might have the same number of models as a stealer unit, and when thats the case math obviously works out in the stealers favor and at that point moral as well. Another point to mention is that the stealers have easy access to a 5+ fnp in addition to 5++ without the additional points needed to field another model (painboy) which only confers us a 6+ fnp. Tyrants and other psychers with catalyst are always in lists so its essentially a free buff for stealers if they want it..

STealers are at least as good as boys, likely better.
Our capacity for damage is higher, but like our entire army is swingy in its output, in the average game stealers are much more reliable in getting their job done.

all that for 6 points? i would pay it in a heartbeat.