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RiderOrk wrote:
I am seeing a lack of nobz in recent lists. Nobz are one of my favorite units. Are there any decent lists featuring nobz or are they just not competitive?

They aren't as good as boyz, but they are not terrible either. Depending on how competitive your meta is, a unit of nobz or two have no trouble running with a green tide. I wouldn't bring them to the top tables of GT like LVO, but they are good enough for opponent that bring strong lists, but not the top soups.

If you run them, just take advantage of the ammo runt/nob armor combination as much as possible. Any multi-damage shots should go to gretchin, while bolters and other anti-infantry should be taken on some ablative nobz' armor.

Who's got tips for playing vs the new Adeptus Mechanicus?

I'm at a loss trying to figure out a reliable method for dealing with some of the more dangerous combinations. What's the Ork response to stuff like the Stygies Sydonian Dragoon rushes? We're talking <200 pts for a unit of 3, that for a cheap-as-hell 2 CP has a guaranteed charge on turn 1 and a reasonable shot at killing just about anything they're pointed at: 9 attacks base, 2+ to hit rerolling w/ a bonus 2 hits on 4+, S8 AP -1 D2. One of these units easily kills a trukk or a unit of boyz or nobz in a single round of combat, and even at relatively small games like 1000 points, you could be facing up to five of these units, plus backup...

And speaking of backup, Kastelans are an absolute nightmare. A more expensive unit usually taken with Cawl, that together clocks in at around 400 pts (though they're taking Cawl regardless, he's far and away the best HQ in the codex, so hardly a tax), but again for a mere 2 CP they put out 18 rerolling S6 AP -2 ignores cover shots with bonus mortal wounds on 6s to wound - and that's per model, not unit. The only consolation here is a 4+ to hit, but there are so many accuracy boosts they have access to that it's barely noticeable until later turns when CP starts to run dry. A unit of 4 of these can handily kill two units of Boyz in a single round of shooting.

My only semi-sane idea so far has been to fully mechanize and hope for the best. If nothing else, the Kastelans will have to chew through a battlewagon's worth of wounds before they get to mulch my boyz. At the moment, though, it feels almost comically one-sided to play against AM, so I'd appreciate just about any insight that could be offered.

RiderOrk wrote:
I am seeing a lack of nobz in recent lists. Nobz are one of my favorite units. Are there any decent lists featuring nobz or are they just not competitive?

Nobz are more useful now than ever just for the morale mitigation they offer to nearby units of boyz. IMO a bare-bones unit of 5 nobs is now a semi-decent force multiplier when stuck in a mass of regular Orks. Larger units are still probably too expensive for what they can accomplish.

I had a unit of 10 nobz w/ power kill Scabbathrax and nearly finished of Mortarain in the same game (buffed with Warpath and a Waaagh Banner. That that is a very specific situation....and by design. I would not recommend that unit in most games.

I like nobz for dealing with models toughness 5-6 and decent armor saves (+4 or better). Think Crisis Suits or Space Marine Bikes. In general I think they will do better then boyz in these situations. And taking ammo runts means you can take casualties and not lose combat effectiveness. It can you an extra round of combat.

5 nobz with Big Choppaz and Power Stabbaz + 5 ammo runts, comes in at around 140 points.

Another way to look at is, is this. Boyz are about 6 points per wound. 1 nob and 1 ammo runt cost 7 points per wound. For that point you get a 4+ save, 1 ablative wound (runt), and 1 extra attack. That seems good to me.

If boyz are fighting something that they can wound on 4's or better; and/or a unit with a high model count then they will superior.

Nobz are good in trucks. Use ammo runts and keep the nobz cheap imo.

Having two wounds on one body is worth SLIGHTLY less than just points/wounds though since some weapons will nuke a boy and a nob with equal ease; you gain alot of 'value' when the enemy has to shoot lascannons into your ranks of lildudes

Boyz are less resistant to small arms fire, and lose three attacks for every failed save. Ammo runts help mitigate the las cannon problem.

I am not saying Nobz are always better than boyz, I am saying there are situations in which they are better. And you can make a reasonable argument for including them in your army.

 Geemoney wrote:
Boyz are less resistant to small arms fire, and lose three attacks for every failed save. Ammo runts help mitigate the las cannon problem.

I am not saying Nobz are always better than boyz, I am saying there are situations in which they are better. And you can make a reasonable argument for including them in your army.

No doubt, I love nobz, but the math isn't as simple as cost/wounds.

Right now having a group of nobs on the table makes target priority easier for opponents who have a reasonable spread of anti horde and anti tank weapons. I expect as tau and deldar come out we will see some mechanized lists return, and people will have to think harder about skewing anti horde. People needing to take anti tank weapons will only make the current ork meta stronger.

I certainly hope it comes full circle though, as I love running small mobs in trukks

Thanks for the feedback on the Nobz. I love them so I will play them but I will be sure to add some ammo runts and maybe limit my usage.

Next, question for the waaaaaagh, how do I out fit my new deff drdred? I am thinking burna and 3 claws.

 davou wrote:

No doubt, I love nobz, but the math isn't as simple as cost/wounds.

I agree.

I also agree that it doesn't make sense to field nobz on foot running up the field with a horde of boyz, for the reasons you stated.

 RiderOrk wrote:
how do I out fit my new deff drdred? I am thinking burna and 3 claws.

I think that sounds good but it seems to me to be a lot of points. For my self I use either all KMB's or big shootas in addition to the two klaws.
I don't put weapons in my boys mobs so this covers down on the extra ranged weapons I other wise wouldn't bother with.
I also only put KMB's on my killa kans because of their BS 4+ so each hit is meaningful.
I have one dread with 4 Klaws but 3 is enough probably.


Question, what's the least amount of boys any of you would bring in an Ork army.
So far the least I have brought was 40. 30 in one mob and 10 another mob. I'm planning a new list and I want more boys in the list but Not a full on green tide.

 davou wrote:
Right now having a group of nobs on the table makes target priority easier for opponents who have a reasonable spread of anti horde and anti tank weapons. I expect as tau and deldar come out we will see some mechanized lists return, and people will have to think harder about skewing anti horde. People needing to take anti tank weapons will only make the current ork meta stronger.

I disagree with this. I often field two units of 7 nobz on foot (5xBC and 3xPK), the seven gretchin make them very bad targets for anti-tank, while you usually have at least artillery, planes or trukks around as decent targets for those guns. Having two lascannon annihilators chew through ammo runts is a win for every kannon and KMK you have on the battlefield. If someone unloads a good anti-infantry weapon on the nobz, just have nobz without special weapons take those shots on their two 4+ wounds. However, those weapons are usually targeting the unit of boyz that has jumped, or another one that is close to objectives/something valuable.
If you get the chance, you can even mob up the unit that has lost its ammo runts into the other one. forcing the enemy to kill even more gretchin and ablative nobz before finally taking out BC or PKs.

As long as a single ammo runt is alive, both dedicated anti-tank and dedicated anti-horde is wasted on a unit of nobz with ammo runts. A KFF can amplify this effect (tougher ammo runts), but is not necessary at all.

The only thing that actually excels at killing nobz is multiple plasma guns at rapid fire range (or similar high volume D2 weaponry), since they will kill gretchin just as well as nobz.

The simple reason why boyz are still better than nobz is that you get a lot more damage and wounds for your points. Your army is not going to break down and stop working from bringing a unit of nobz or two instead of boyz. You should still bring three or more units of boyz in addition to your nobz though, since nobz are just a support unit to boyz to better take down hard targets.

You make a good case for Nobz, ammo runs are definitely a must, and they are also much easier to KFF and Painboy than boyz in droves. Plus when the squad gets in, the entire squad is fighting, whereas boyz are hanging back.

I've think that durability is a constant issue with boyz, and nobz may shore up this a little, especially with juicier targets on the field like KMKs.

"You won't pull the same charge surround trick twice. Especially on turn 1"

https://thebrownmagic.com/2018/03/13/when-life-gives-you-lemons-play-better-part-2/

So I guess the literally best 40k player right now is a big ol dummy :thinking:

Gruxz wrote:
What do your lists commonly look like Blackie? I'd like to use batllewagons more.

At 2000 points my favorite lists are a combination with these units: I usually have 2 BWs, one with 19 boyz plus a weirdboy with warpath or a warboss with big choppa, the second one with 2x10 boyz. Sometimes a third one with 2x10 boyz as well or 12 boyz plus 4 meganobz with killsaws. Then 1-2 trukks with 7-9 bustas and always 2 bomb squigs each, 2-3 single skorchas, 3-6 KMKs, biker boss or zhad, biker mek with kff and big choppa or killsaw and sometimes a morkanaut to act as a bullet magnet and eventually give the 5+ invuln to other vehicles. The naut and meganobz are more for casual games but they're not garbage IMHO and the weirdboy can help the meganobz by casting warpath on them.


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 RiderOrk wrote:


Next, question for the waaaaaagh, how do I out fit my new deff drdred? I am thinking burna and 3 claws.

I always keep him cheap, two big shootas are enough. It's already quite expensive kitted like that and it doesn't reach combat that often anyway, skorachs have also a very short range and cost 3 times a big shoota.


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 RiderOrk wrote:
I am seeing a lack of nobz in recent lists. Nobz are one of my favorite units. Are there any decent lists featuring nobz or are they just not competitive?

I never had decent results with them in this edition after CA drops and made pks cheaper. Before CA 6 I thought nobz with ammo runts and big choppas in a trukk were decent for their points but if you give them pks they become quite expensive comparing to the meganobz with two killsaws which I prefer. If you go footsloggers nobz are certainly more effective than meganobz but you need max ammo runts, a big unit of 7+ guys and a couple of stock nobz and least.


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 Geemoney wrote:
Blackie, that is my experience too.

My lists tend to be:

3 BW w/ ard case
2 units ~20 boyz
1 unit 5 nobz, 5 ammo runts

1 BW open topped
either Flash Gitz or Tankbustaz

8 Kustom Mega Kannons

Warboss on Warbike
Big Mek on Warbike
2 Wierd boyz
Kaptian Badrukk

I tend to deploy using the T8 Battlewagons combined with the grot gunners as a screen. I can usually control were opponent deepstrike in this way.

I have also found that I have to have a strong shooting phase in order to do well. Which is why I take so many mek guns. I have been considering taking two more. (up to 10).

I like it. How does the open topped BW perform in your games? I use trukks for tankbustas. What's the tactics around the two weirdboyz? One with warpath is certainly useful, and I tipycally include him in my lists as well, but the second one? Do you need da jump in a list with vehicles? I guess he's there only to smite though.

The problem with transports that actually want to work like transports is that they are really slow and avoidable.

They generally move 10+d6 if you advance. Sometimes slower when they degrade. And if the enemy doesn't want you to charge him, all he needs to do is move back a couple inches. Since all you get is a 3" movement advantage for your units inside the transports, it doesn't sound all that great.

You move forward 10+d6. Next turn you disembark 3", move 4-5", advance d6 if there's a boss nearby, and there should be, and charge 2d6. That's 18" + 4d6. Seems legit. However, don't forget that the enemy can have bauble wrap that you can do nothing against since you lack shooting. He can start a bit further away. Key units will likely be inside terrain for an extra 2" charge. And you might not get first turn and vehicles will get wrecked or will degrade.

In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

 koooaei wrote:
The problem with transports that actually want to work like transports is that they are really slow and avoidable.

They generally move 10+d6 if you advance. Sometimes slower when they degrade. And if the enemy doesn't want you to charge him, all he needs to do is move back a couple inches. Since all you get is a 3" movement advantage for your units inside the transports, it doesn't sound all that great.

You move forward 10+d6. Next turn you disembark 3", move 4-5", advance d6 if there's a boss nearby, and there should be, and charge 2d6. That's 18" + 4d6. Seems legit. However, don't forget that the enemy can have bauble wrap that you can do nothing against since you lack shooting. He can start a bit further away. Key units will likely be inside terrain for an extra 2" charge. And you might not get first turn and vehicles will get wrecked or will degrade.

In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

I don't think that transports are slow and avoidable. Boyz from a trukk can charge something 12+D6+3+5+D6+2D6 inches away in their second turn. That is 34" on average not counting the charge reroll. You simply cannot kite away from that without abandoning all board control, or leaving the game board all together.

But I agree with your other point, though, that running infantry is fast enough to make the transports not needed. Boyz with Waaagh+Ere we go will complete a second turn charge 26" away from their initial deployment 50% of the time. And that means that Boyz on foot will almost always get to charge something on their second turn. So the extra 10" of threat range you get with the trukk-boyz will most often lead to the same second-turn charge as if you did not bring the trukk. But trukk boyz are 13 points per boy, which is more than double that of footsloggers. That is why transports does not work for boyz.

Question
I use my Nobz with kustom shootas and big shoppa.
The kustom shoota is because it's 4 shots and kind of cheap
Is that a good idea?

Kustom shootas are by no means cheap. 4 pts is insane on a bs5+ platform. I'd consider them for 1 pts.


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pismakron wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The problem with transports that actually want to work like transports is that they are really slow and avoidable.

They generally move 10+d6 if you advance. Sometimes slower when they degrade. And if the enemy doesn't want you to charge him, all he needs to do is move back a couple inches. Since all you get is a 3" movement advantage for your units inside the transports, it doesn't sound all that great.

You move forward 10+d6. Next turn you disembark 3", move 4-5", advance d6 if there's a boss nearby, and there should be, and charge 2d6. That's 18" + 4d6. Seems legit. However, don't forget that the enemy can have bauble wrap that you can do nothing against since you lack shooting. He can start a bit further away. Key units will likely be inside terrain for an extra 2" charge. And you might not get first turn and vehicles will get wrecked or will degrade.

In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

I don't think that transports are slow and avoidable. Boyz from a trukk can charge something 12+D6+3+5+D6+2D6 inches away in their second turn. That is 34" on average not counting the charge reroll. You simply cannot kite away from that without abandoning all board control, or leaving the game board all together.

But I agree with your other point, though, that running infantry is fast enough to make the transports not needed. Boyz with Waaagh+Ere we go will complete a second turn charge 26" away from their initial deployment 50% of the time. And that means that Boyz on foot will almost always get to charge something on their second turn. So the extra 10" of threat range you get with the trukk-boyz will most often lead to the same second-turn charge as if you did not bring the trukk. But trukk boyz are 13 points per boy, which is more than double that of footsloggers. That is why transports does not work for boyz.

Oh, the trukk moves 12". My bad. Out of 4 total games i've used them, i didn't go first, so they either moved 0 cause they got wrecked or 8" cause the enemy shot them to degrade, so my brain assumed they move 10 when undamaged cause the only thing that managed to move full distance was a wagon and it moved 10. So, yeah. Mind you, our meta is quite competitive, so i lost all pickup games when trying to run mech. In comparison, i've won most of my games with boyz/stormboyz spam list. I think there were only 2 games where mech orks won. Those were pre-negotiated lists. Against witch cult (BARELY won on points and because there was no 6 turn, otherwise it would have been a wipeout) and against grey knights. Funnily enough, gk player had no anti-tank and still managed to wreck a t8 battlewagon with psy powers and s4-6 shooting before they even got to move. But than he, for some reason, decided that he wanted to charge. Failed all the charges and got left in the open. So, orks lucked out again. It was still a super close game that came down to Ghaz making like 5 out of 6 4++ saves.

 petitflacheur wrote:
Question
I use my Nobz with kustom shootas and big shoppa.
The kustom shoota is because it's 4 shots and kind of cheap
Is that a good idea?

The custom shooter is a trap. Its just not worth on an ork ballistic skill unfortunately. Compare it to a stormbolter, half the price, a better ballistic skill. Better range.

 koooaei wrote:


In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

Point one is usually true since kommandos, stormboyz and teleported boyz are all extremely fast. But I disagree about the second one since it's meta dependant: I mean against a massive amount of twin assault cannons, stormbolters, the stormraven and other stuff like that the vehicles can soak better the damage output, on a flip side against massive anti tank you're going to lose tons of points of vehicles. My meta is more anti hordes oriented, because the most powerful lists here are all hordes, so I don't usually lose more than a BW and a trukk in first turn if I start second, and this is worst case scenario, but losing 60 footslogging ork infantries, even with the buffs, is the average game.

I 100% agree about the kustom shoota, it's very expensive. 4ppm means at least 20 points per unit for doing very little. 20 points for orks are a lot I only give the kustom shoota to one of the HQs if I have 4-5 points left and no other options to consider. If it was 2ppm and nobz had BS4+ I'd consider it though but it's a pretty big buff and I don't think that kustom shootas and nobz will get something like that.

I've got a 1000pt campaign coming up against Primaris Marines and Death guard and this is the list I've come up with so far.

Battalion Detachment +3cp (Orks) 1000pts

Big Mek (75pts) KFF, Choppa

Warboss (72pts) Attack Squig, Kustom Shoota, PK

Warboss (66Pts) Attack Squig, Killchoppa, Kustom Shoota

Boyz (193pts)
-Boss Nob: PK
-29x Boyz: Choppa Slugga

Boyz (193pts)
-Boss Nob: PK
-29x Boyz: Choppa Slugga

Boyz (60pts)
-10x Boyz: Shoota

Nobz (126pts)
-Boss Nob: PK
-4x Nobz: Big Choppa

Painboy (53pts) : PK

Warbikers (81pts)
-3x Warbikers

Big Gunz (81pts)
-3x Kannons
-6x Grot Gunners


I plan on walking the choppa boyz and Warbosses up the board with the KFF while the bikers and shoota boyz capture what objectives they can and the big gunz try to annoy/distract from the backfield. I figure the Nobz and Painboy could try and take out some of the higher toughness models that will probably be fielded. Thoughts? I do not have enough boyz to make another mob and the only other units I have available right now are two Deff Dreads and two Deffkoptas which I opted to not use since I think the only thing I've managed to kill with them in 3 games were some ratlings.

Probably a YMDC question, but is it commonly accepted that tabling equals loss in maelstrom? It just so happens I had a game on Saturday where I was way ahead on welfare VP's but got tabled in my opponent's shooting phase in the top of turn 6. (Untimed game)

For those of you that like unorthodox stuff, I brought a Dakkatide consisting of 30 Tankbustas, 24 Lootas, 90 Boyz, a handful of HQs, and 20 Stormboyz to a 2100pt maelstrom game vs a TAC Gurlyman UM squad with assbacks and devs + a small BT detachment.

Of course I do this then we got that mission where everything firing at something more then twelve inches away gets -1 to hit and I had to go 2nd.

MSU Tankbusta's standing in nothing but a KFF seemed to draw Marines into an Orkboy screen quite nicely. Distraction carnifex? It seemed like he had to do it or just give me all of the table.

I think putting Snikrot in a list to deploy behind non suicidal Shoota boy jumpz is almost good support.

Stormboyz picked up easy VPs easily and even picked up some kills. Ork Boyz getting in CC paid off nicely, never a bad game when they get stuck in numbers larger then twenty. Flare strategem in that mission feels comical. Imagine orkz looking for something to shoot in the dark, then a flare goes up and, with coordination that would make the psychic energies of the Waaagh! jealous, every ork with a gun or rokkit launcha fires at the light.

In the end, what got me tabled was combination of Helbrect, an Emperor's Champion, and RG himself smiting handfuls of choppy orkz and two remaining assbacks finishing my backfield.

@DrGiggles:

I'd ditch a warboss for a weirdboy. You don't need two warbosses at 1000 points. I'd also give the nobz max ammo runts, it helps quite a lot to keep them alive. Not a fan of bikers, especially in a footslogging list, they'll probably die without doing anything, I'd replace them with more artillery or kommandos.

With the models you have the list you posted is probably the best one you can field since dreads and koptas are utterly overcosted. Try to play one warboss as a pskyer and add those gretchins to the nobz if you can somehow, at least the ammo runt that comes with nobz kit.

Is the painboy and the bikers efficient in that list (Dr Giggles)?
2 or 3 skortchas aren't beter?

Edit: painboy is good, just the bikers then: 2 or 3 to do the same thing than one unit: take objectives

Question on the mek guns can you allocate wounds to the grots?

 DrGiggles wrote:
I've got a 1000pt campaign coming up against Primaris Marines and Death guard and this is the list I've come up with so far.

Battalion Detachment +3cp (Orks) 1000pts
<snip>

I plan on walking the choppa boyz and Warbosses up the board with the KFF while the bikers and shoota boyz capture what objectives they can and the big gunz try to annoy/distract from the backfield. I figure the Nobz and Painboy could try and take out some of the higher toughness models that will probably be fielded. Thoughts? I do not have enough boyz to make another mob and the only other units I have available right now are two Deff Dreads and two Deffkoptas which I opted to not use since I think the only thing I've managed to kill with them in 3 games were some ratlings.

I agree with Blackie, bring a weird boy instead of the PK warboss. Death guard is about tough units and has plenty of psychic powers, having a psyker to deny and smite is very valuable. Not to mention gaining access to Da Jump.
Another option would be switching the PK warboss for Mad Dok Grotsnik and the pain boy for a weird boy. The mad dok is basically a warboss and a pain boy rolled into one model, so you won't actually lose anything while gaining the weird boy.

For the nobz unit, don't spend too many points special weapons. I guarantee you, at least one nob is never going to swing his big choppa at anything. I advice using 3 BC and buy ammo runts for all your nobz (just use regular gretchin models). In this case BC are better than PCs as you'll be facing lots of 2 wound models or models with DR, and you don't want to roll a 1 for the d3 damage on either of them.

Last, I would actually field a single kopta instead of the warbikers because it is more likely to do anything with rokkits, bomb and kopta blades, while dakka guns are nearly useless against both primaris and death guard. But that's a matter of taste.


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ballzonya wrote:
Question on the mek guns can you allocate wounds to the grots?

No, they split into separate units on deployment.

Ok thanks hope the codex you will be able to allocate lol

 Rismonite wrote:
Probably a YMDC question, but is it commonly accepted that tabling equals loss in maelstrom? It just so happens I had a game on Saturday where I was way ahead on welfare VP's but got tabled in my opponent's shooting phase in the top of turn 6. (Untimed game)

Yes, "Sudden Death" on pg 215 is quite clear on that.

 Blackie wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

Point one is usually true since kommandos, stormboyz and teleported boyz are all extremely fast. But I disagree about the second one since it's meta dependant: I mean against a massive amount of twin assault cannons, stormbolters, the stormraven and other stuff like that the vehicles can soak better the damage output, on a flip side against massive anti tank you're going to lose tons of points of vehicles. My meta is more anti hordes oriented, because the most powerful lists here are all hordes, so I don't usually lose more than a BW and a trukk in first turn if I start second, and this is worst case scenario, but losing 60 footslogging ork infantries, even with the buffs, is the average game.

I 100% agree about the kustom shoota, it's very expensive. 4ppm means at least 20 points per unit for doing very little. 20 points for orks are a lot I only give the kustom shoota to one of the HQs if I have 4-5 points left and no other options to consider. If it was 2ppm and nobz had BS4+ I'd consider it though but it's a pretty big buff and I don't think that kustom shootas and nobz will get something like that.

My experience matches Blackie's, 120+ boyz gets shot off the board in my meta. People tend to have more trouble with battlewagons in my experience. I also tend to like going second; with my battle wagons.

 Blackie wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


In practice, i find that my footslogers are about as fast at reaching combat as mech troops. But mech is much less point-efficient and is more afraid of going second. So...that's how things work for me at least.

Point one is usually true since kommandos, stormboyz and teleported boyz are all extremely fast. But I disagree about the second one since it's meta dependant: I mean against a massive amount of twin assault cannons, stormbolters, the stormraven and other stuff like that the vehicles can soak better the damage output, on a flip side against massive anti tank you're going to lose tons of points of vehicles. My meta is more anti hordes oriented, because the most powerful lists here are all hordes, so I don't usually lose more than a BW and a trukk in first turn if I start second, and this is worst case scenario, but losing 60 footslogging ork infantries, even with the buffs, is the average game.

I 100% agree about the kustom shoota, it's very expensive. 4ppm means at least 20 points per unit for doing very little. 20 points for orks are a lot I only give the kustom shoota to one of the HQs if I have 4-5 points left and no other options to consider. If it was 2ppm and nobz had BS4+ I'd consider it though but it's a pretty big buff and I don't think that kustom shootas and nobz will get something like that.

Well, a trukk is only about 30% more durable vs an assault cannon than a boy. A t8 battlewagon with a ram is 37.5% more durable than a boy. And 181.25% less durable vs plasma, not talking about lazcannons and stuff like that.