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 Blackie wrote:

Gruxz wrote:
What do your lists commonly look like Blackie? I'd like to use batllewagons more.

At 2000 points my favorite lists are a combination with these units: I usually have 2 BWs, one with 19 boyz plus a weirdboy with warpath or a warboss with big choppa, the second one with 2x10 boyz. Sometimes a third one with 2x10 boyz as well or 12 boyz plus 4 meganobz with killsaws. Then 1-2 trukks with 7-9 bustas and always 2 bomb squigs each, 2-3 single skorchas, 3-6 KMKs, biker boss or zhad, biker mek with kff and big choppa or killsaw and sometimes a morkanaut to act as a bullet magnet and eventually give the 5+ invuln to other vehicles. The naut and meganobz are more for casual games but they're not garbage IMHO and the weirdboy can help the meganobz by casting warpath on them.

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 Geemoney wrote:
Blackie, that is my experience too.

My lists tend to be:

3 BW w/ ard case
2 units ~20 boyz
1 unit 5 nobz, 5 ammo runts

1 BW open topped
either Flash Gitz or Tankbustaz

8 Kustom Mega Kannons

Warboss on Warbike
Big Mek on Warbike
2 Wierd boyz
Kaptian Badrukk

I tend to deploy using the T8 Battlewagons combined with the grot gunners as a screen. I can usually control were opponent deepstrike in this way.

I have also found that I have to have a strong shooting phase in order to do well. Which is why I take so many mek guns. I have been considering taking two more. (up to 10).

I like it. How does the open topped BW perform in your games? I use trukks for tankbustas. What's the tactics around the two weirdboyz? One with warpath is certainly useful, and I typically include him in my lists as well, but the second one? Do you need da jump in a list with vehicles? I guess he's there only to smite though.

The open topped wagon is fine. I deploy in such a way that the 3 T8 wagons are a more immediate threat and tend to get shot first. I have used two trukks in the past, and two trukks are more difficult to protect. I do think you can make a good argument for using 2 trukks over 1 battlewagon...

The two weird boyz are primarily for smite. If I get a little lucky, this list can kill Mortarian/Magnus/Kharybdis in a turn if you throw them in my face; and the wierdboyz are part of that. I give one wierdboy Da Jump and the other Warpath. Da Jump tends to be more useful then Warpath; it is not that often that I need extra attacks morethen I need smite. I like to jump Grot gunners to get line breaker/objectives, jumping tankbustaz/flashgitz can be useful. If I am feeling real desperate I will jump a combat unit and try to make a 9" charge (although in my experience this almost never works even with rerolls, so I don't want to rely on it to win games).

I play this list more defensively and rely on durability, and always plan on going second, especially against deep striking lists. Sometimes it doesn't work and I get shot of the board on turn 1, but that is pretty rare (in my experience).

@Blackie, how do you use Meganobz, I have not been able to make them effective?

I find meganobz to be quite decent, generally. They got a points cut with chapter approved, generally have at least a 5+ save, and sometimes get to go first in melee.

Jumping decent sized squads works well, but transporting them with a waaaagh banner is better.

And, hell, a knot of meganobz with ghaz, warpath, a waaagh banner is a pretty hard-hitting unit, and generally difficult to remove from the field.

Painboyz help too, a bit for the 6+ FNP but also to restore wounds. And their 3 wounds is solid too.

 Geemoney wrote:


@Blackie, how do you use Meganobz, I have not been able to make them effective?

I embark 4-5 of them in a wagon with 10-12 boyz, all the meganobz have dual killsaws. They ride near another wagon with 19 boyz and a weirdboy, who can cast warpath on the meganobz. Tipycally going full boyz is more rewarding than bringing meganobz but if they find the appropriate target (that's the main issue about them) they can repay their points back. The killsaws are mandatory though, for just +6 points than a pk you'll get the +1A which helps with the -1 to hit and a better AP that matters against 2+ and 3+ save units with no invulns. I like to keep their wagon stock with no rolla since that vehicle is going to be a priority target.

As Kap'n Krump well said painboyz, ghaz and the banner are all best friend with meganobz, just spread out the eggs in several baskets, they just need the synergies in turns 2-3+.

But basically I play with meganobz because they're my favorite models and I like to field them anyway

Gorkanaught or morkanught? And what are you hoping for them with the new codex? I want a 50 point drop at least

ballzonya wrote:
Gorkanaught or morkanught? And what are you hoping for them with the new codex? I want a 50 point drop at least

Neither. If I had to take one, it would be the Gorkanaut. For the codex I hope their shooting gets a major buff along with a price drop. But I don't expect it. Eldar got a very strong codex, but the wraith knight is still super overcosted.

But what really needs some love in the codex is Deff Dreads and Killa Kanz. They are iconic Ork units and the models are really good. But right now they are pretty much unplayable.

It's a shame I love the model so I bought it and I'm leaning towards morkanught but to make it viable it needs a major points drop. I hope they do fix it I really do

 Geemoney wrote:


hyperbole....

A T8 transport that holds 20 models and has 6 attacks that hits on 2's at str 8 is good. However they are certainly over priced but not so much that I would call them trash. I like to take 3-4 in my lists, and I can bang around in middle tables just fine, which is about all you can hope with orks anyway.

As far as argument that goes "Well my opponent can kill them so they suck." 200 Boyz can be killed just as fast..so they must suck too.

I do agree that buying them guns doesn't make any sense.

YMMV, in my meta you see a lot of SM players with Girlyman gunlines and Tau/eldar shenanigans with their anti-tank tricks. There is 1 other ork player and 1 nid player who prefers big bugs so most of the meta is geared towards anti-tank and anti-monster/primarch. I tried fielding a 3 wagon Blitz brigade of sorts. Rollas and Boyz/nobz inside, in 3 games that day I lost 1-2 wagons on turn 1, in one game I lost all 3 from Eldar shenanigans. Now I am well aware this is anecdotal it doesn't take much to prove it across the board against the Net lists you see at GTs and what not. Against a gunline that is designed to kill hordes, yeah it will do good work, but against my META and the ITC net lists, they will die way to quickly. IF the 'ard top gave us a 2+ save then it would be a completely different story, but as it stands, T8 with a 4+ is just way to easy to kill with Plasma Spam and other anti-tank weapons.

SemperMortis wrote:
YMMV, in my meta you see a lot of SM players with Girlyman gunlines and Tau/eldar shenanigans with their anti-tank tricks. There is 1 other ork player and 1 nid player who prefers big bugs so most of the meta is geared towards anti-tank and anti-monster/primarch. I tried fielding a 3 wagon Blitz brigade of sorts. Rollas and Boyz/nobz inside, in 3 games that day I lost 1-2 wagons on turn 1, in one game I lost all 3 from Eldar shenanigans. Now I am well aware this is anecdotal it doesn't take much to prove it across the board against the Net lists you see at GTs and what not. Against a gunline that is designed to kill hordes, yeah it will do good work, but against my META and the ITC net lists, they will die way to quickly. IF the 'ard top gave us a 2+ save then it would be a completely different story, but as it stands, T8 with a 4+ is just way to easy to kill with Plasma Spam and other anti-tank weapons.

Yeah I play in a competitive META and have a mad max list, 3 trukks some with tankbustas, 2 battlewagons full of boyz, kmks, dakkajets and some bike HQ... I want to add buggies/skorchas to the list for some earlier pressure and flexibility in deployment. That list has never won a game. But when I play "horde with KMK" i'm winning more than half my games in the same meta. I think its just a point issue, the vehicles statlines seem sensible enough (more wounds less armour sort of deal), and I actually think trukks are in a good spot, but the list in general is too inefficient.

The dumbest thing is that trukks only take 10 boyz, but if you're not taking 30 you're shooting yourself in the foot not once (20+ bonus) but twice (very vulnerable to morale). So they are literally there for Tankbustas and nothing else.

Question: are zapp gunz beter than kannon? (i know the best choice is KMK but in the big gunz category)

 petitflacheur wrote:
Question: are zapp gunz beter than kannon? (i know the best choice is KMK but in the big gunz category)

Kannonz are more versatile overall since they're a bit cheaper and they have two profiles so they can be useful as anti infantry if you need it. Zaaps are better as anti tank thanks to their AP and the possibility of causing mortal wounds, but like any other weapon with a random profile it's a bit unreliable. I'd take kannonz over them everytime.

And a KMK is only 12 points more expensive but gives you +3W +3 gretchin and a better weapon, there's litterally no reason for bringing zaap guns at the moment other than the fluff (I love the concept of zaap guns and sometimes I field them myself in some very casual games, always a battery of five).

Thank you
As i always play painted wysiwyg, zapp/kanon is much faster to field (3 models to paint) that the big KMK... but i will get there

I'd take zzap over kannons. None are good but zzap can at least cause mortal wounds once in a while.

Kannons are decent since they reliably wound T7 on 3+ and do more damage than zzap.

In the new world with Custodes being popular is there an argument for Zzaps over KMK? Nice AP and 3 Damage with the possibility of Mortal Wounds. Not sure if that negates the difference in shot volume of the only slightly more expensive KMK.

xlDuke wrote:
In the new world with Custodes being popular is there an argument for Zzaps over KMK? Nice AP and 3 Damage with the possibility of Mortal Wounds. Not sure if that negates the difference in shot volume of the only slightly more expensive KMK.

No. The KMK is much better than any of the other artillery options. The Zapp gun shines against Tyranid Warriors, Custodes, Tau battlesuits and the like, but even here the KMK is just straight up better.

I suspect you're right. It's turning into a long wait for the codex, I'm getting very tired of this Index.

I somehow fail to see how rolling 11+ and still needing to hit "shines" against anything. It's fun side-grade to a kannon, but not actually going to happen more often than once every few games.

 Jidmah wrote:
I somehow fail to see how rolling 11+ and still needing to hit "shines" against anything. It's fun side-grade to a kannon, but not actually going to happen more often than once every few games.

Yeah, it'd have to be 2D6+3 S rather than just 2D6 to consider it seriously as a weapon.

@xlDuke The reason why zzaps aren't much better against custodes is because even with 3 flat damage, the AP is somewhat irrelevant given that as long as you have AP-2 you're good enough since they're likely to be in a detachment where they get the +1 invuln. bonus, so they'll be gettting a 3+ or 4+ invulnerable save anyways. Furthermore, if you want to spam 3 damage weapons, rokkits are better at that, since you can be mobile and kite with them while always wounding on a 3+ and having the crucial -2 AP.

the 2d6 S is the real problem of that weapon

DG has a 2d6 strength weapon that is hands down the best one in the codex

I think the combination of one shot, unreliable BS and low damage is more of an issue than the strength. 2d6 is actually fairly reliable against stuff below T7.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I somehow fail to see how rolling 11+ and still needing to hit "shines" against anything. It's fun side-grade to a kannon, but not actually going to happen more often than once every few games.

Yeah, it'd have to be 2D6+3 S rather than just 2D6 to consider it seriously as a weapon.

@xlDuke The reason why zzaps aren't much better against custodes is because even with 3 flat damage, the AP is somewhat irrelevant given that as long as you have AP-2 you're good enough since they're likely to be in a detachment where they get the +1 invuln. bonus, so they'll be gettting a 3+ or 4+ invulnerable save anyways. Furthermore, if you want to spam 3 damage weapons, rokkits are better at that, since you can be mobile and kite with them while always wounding on a 3+ and having the crucial -2 AP.

I wasn't aware of they were able to get +1 to their invulnerable saves via a detachment bonus, I've not had a thorough look at their rules yet just a cursory glance, so thanks very much for the tip. Yeah I've thought about Tankbustas in Trukks for anti-Custodes, it's just a shame that nothing else would really well well alongside them except Mek Guns, in which case why not just use more Mek Guns instead of 'bustas and use Boyz. It's all becoming very tiresome for me, I've got a lot of love for this faction but it becomes slowly more difficult to enjoy playing them.

Bring multiple weirdboyz and a green tide against custodes. They hate hordes since most of them are heavy hitters, only the bikes are very good at killing infantries and all your shooting should go into them. Custodes suffer mortal wounds a lot, more than rokkits since they have invulns. Bring a green tide with some weirdboyz and KMKs to target the bikes. Unless it's a list with tons of bikes you shouldn't have problems against them.

 Blackie wrote:
Bring multiple weirdboyz and a green tide against custodes. They hate hordes since most of them are heavy hitters, only the bikes are very good at killing infantries and all your shooting should go into them. Custodes suffer mortal wounds a lot, more than rokkits since they have invulns. Bring a green tide with some weirdboyz and KMKs to target the bikes. Unless it's a list with tons of bikes you shouldn't have problems against them.

Indeed! This will be Plan A.

After reading the blog post linked here by RDV (and reading a bit more on that blog.) I've come up with a list I want to try. Please chew on it and tell me what you think.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/752943.page#9881464

The bubble gun? serious?

 petitflacheur wrote:
The bubble gun? serious?

Kinda, I built when the Index dropped. I had 12 KMK's but now only have 2. I also built 6 Smasha guns. Which have worked out better than you might think.
I'm more surprised you didn't say that at the SAG mek. lol.

I can see the use of Zzap Gunz as taking out elite infantry with invulnerable saves, but I wish they were better tank hunters. When firing at most vehicles their special ability is not really of much benefit, since we would already most likely be wounding and they would already most likely be failing their save.

The Zzap Gun is pretty unreliable at taking out both elites with invulnerable saves and vehicles, which would be fine if it was less expensive than it is now.

I also hope it doesn't get cut from the Big Gunz options in the codex, as I don't think they actually sell a model for it any more, do they? We can get the gun itself as part of the Battle Wagon kit, and it's easy enough to kitbash, but I think they stopped making the model a while ago.

I jumped on GW's website and I actually couldn't find Kannons or Lobbas either. It wasn't just that they said "out of stock" or "no longer available" but rather there is no trace of them. I really hope this means that GW is going to make a new kit and not that Big Gunz are being cut from the Codex entirely.

They're called "Mek Gunz" now.

Mek Gunz and Big Gunz are two different units.