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 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I am of the opinion that anything that's not:
spreadsheet data
tournament results data
top placing player (majors/gts only matter here) input
Is next to meaningless unless it is based on the previous 3 things.

Input from FLGS games is meaningless. Input from RTT results where you won with a stompa is meaningless
If a unit you think is useless makes up a big part of a list that does well in such a major tournament as the LVO, then you're wrong. Why you're wrong is another question entirelly. Google it, try to find the player who played them and ask him. Try asking other top players because they probably have a much better idea than you.

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 Blackie wrote:

For +30 points they are way more durable as screeners,

Uh... no? Against lasguns they are the exact same. Remember, we're comparing 2 grot to 1 boy.
Against almost anything else, grots are superior. Yes, they're T2. But everything else is the same. Same save, same wounds. Morale can be solved plenty of different ways.

Calm yourself rvd. We know your opinion. I think it's stupid but whatever it's up to you.

As to the Grots, didn't you say this player that finished 55th in LVO had 90 of them? That's 180pts. It doesn't exactly make up a 'big part' of a 2k list.

Ming wrote:
Allright then, after your Feedback the list would be something like that:

HQ
Warboss (Warlord with Eadwoopa)
Weridboy with Warpath
Weirdboy witch Da Jump

Troops
30x Boyz
30x Boyz
30x Shootaboyz --> Screen and overwatch for turn 1 and if I get turn 1 I Jump them in front of the enemy lines.

Elites
5x Kommandos --> Camping on objectives
5x Kommandos --> Camping on objectives

Heavy Support
1xBig Trakk with supa-skorcha
1xMek Gunz KMK
1xBig gun (because Points)

Flyer
Dakka-Jet with 6xSupashoota

I like the look of this more!

What's our answer to the flyrant spam that ran rampant throughout Adepticon? Grot screens?!

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I am of the opinion that anything that's not:
spreadsheet data
tournament results data
top placing player (majors/gts only matter here) input
Is next to meaningless unless it is based on the previous 3 things.

Input from FLGS games is meaningless. Input from RTT results where you won with a stompa is meaningless
If a unit you think is useless makes up a big part of a list that does well in such a major tournament as the LVO, then you're wrong. Why you're wrong is another question entirelly. Google it, try to find the player who played them and ask him. Try asking other top players because they probably have a much better idea than you.

The whole point of this thread is to talk about the "why". If you answer to everything is "ask someone else or google it", why are you even bothering with posting here? You are literally adding nothing to this discussion but telling people they suck because their opinion doesn't match your data.
Also note that your tournament data is irrelevant to people not playing in a comperable meta, which are a good deal of ork players right now. People aiming to win major events like LVO will not bring orks.

Quackzo's post was more helpful to other people reading this thread than your last ten posts on the same topic combined, because he actually bothered to explain how to use gretchin in an efficient way. This is what this thread is about.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

As to the Grots, didn't you say this player that finished 55th in LVO had 90 of them? That's 180pts. It doesn't exactly make up a 'big part' of a 2k list.

It was 90+90+72+26=278. Anything over 250 is a big part of the list.


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I don't care what YOU think this thread is about.
This thread, for me, is "how to win with orks in a competitive environment". You know, like the name of the thread???

About grots, I'll quote Abuse Puppy:
"The reason Gretchin have value, and have always had value, is that there is a certain utility to simply being a scoring model that exists on the board, regardless of your stats. Gretchin have the same Objective Secured rule and the same ability to take up space on the board (to block reserves, stop fallbacks, etc) as any other model in the game, but at a fraction of the cost. In many games your units’ guns and stats don’t really matter a whole lot- that Plasma will kill a Space Marine just as it will a Grot, but the Grot costs a mere fraction of what the Marine does.

As one of the cheapest possible troop choices in the game, there’s a lot to be said for Gretchin and the things they can do. They probably aren’t going to win any awards for going out and massacring the enemy, but that’s what the whole rest of your army is for- those three squads of ten Gretchin do a great job of holding your backfield and filling out a battalion/brigade while costing an almost trivial number of points.

For a few points more, Ork Boyz have much better stats and abilities. But if you don’t need either of those, Gretchin are fantastic."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If 0 damage brimstones are seeing top table play, they will too.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

As to the Grots, didn't you say this player that finished 55th in LVO had 90 of them? That's 180pts. It doesn't exactly make up a 'big part' of a 2k list.

It was 90+90+72+26=278. Anything over 250 is a big part of the list.

According to who? Since when has anything over 250 pts been an indicator of a "big part of the list"?

Post the entire list please. I want to see what else the player had in relation to his points spend on Grots.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I don't care what YOU think this thread is about.
This thread, for me, is "how to win with orks in a competitive environment". You know, like the name of the thread???

You probably should care what Jidmah thinks this thread is about, he made it after all.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Against lasguns they are the exact same. Remember, we're comparing 2 grot to 1 boy.
Against almost anything else, grots are superior. Yes, they're T2. But everything else is the same. Same save, same wounds. Morale can be solved plenty of different ways.

Lasguns? You don't need a conga line against AM though.

Against the tipycal S4-5 fire that goes against screeners boyz are tougher. They also have free LD30, I don't want to invest in other units or CPs only for passing a morale test for a cheap unit of screeners. You don't want a warboss just 3'' away from the screening unit usually.

And as I said before if the ork player doesn't need a conga line and/or starts first the small unit of boyz can be merged to a big one. If you need some objective holder field kommandos, for +15 points they can show up whenever you need them. But also mek gunz are way better as backfield objective holders than gretchins.

The only reason to bring grots comes if you're really short on points and have no idea about what to cut. It may happen, since 30 points for orks are a lot. I always struggle to find 38 points for a couple of deffrollas in my BWs list for example, in fact I never use them for that reason

Thanks 1ofakind for explaining. Thanks blackie for asking. IMHO, i use this post to get better with my orks. So Blackie had the best idea, we must explain a little more

How do we feel about Shoota Boyz vs Choppa Boyz?

Mathmatically, 1 WS3+ Choppa and 2 BS5+ Shootas have the same wound output (pre-modifiers);

The three biggest variables are; -1 to hit Modifier, if the Choppas are under any buffs when they attack, and if the Boyz are able to stay stuck-in between rounds (meaning an additional combat phase, and no shooting phase on your turn). There's the additional merit of softening the enemy up a little pre-charge with Shootas (which may mean an additional Boy or two gets to live/charge in).

Are we finding ourselves stick in Close Combat/Counter-charged on the opponents turn, or are they just falling back and gunning the Boys down?

I know most people prefer a 20 Choppa/10 Shoota mix, right?

I trialled a mix, and tbh it was just a faff. I now go dedicated choppa or shoota mobz, and I don't really use shootas all that much.
I'm up against a lot of death guard, biker spam in my meta, so shootas are just not worth it.
Ymmv.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

I don't care what YOU think this thread is about.
This thread, for me, is "how to win with orks in a competitive environment". You know, like the name of the thread???

Oh, you humor me. You do realize that I can just rename the thread to anything I want, right? Be careful what you rule-lawyer for

This thread has been the same since 6th edition, when six years ago this forum first started organizing tactic discussions into codex-focused threads instead of a bunch of disconnected threads talking about different units or how to beat certain armies with orks. I have created the thread for two editions so far and have read all of the posts and posted a few thousand times across the four incarnations of it.
The reason why it has been called "Making Orks Competitive" is that back in the day, every other thread would devolve into an argument about whether certain army choices or tactics were "orky" or not. There were quite some people believing that using any resemblance of intelligent tactics in an ork army was WAAC behavior. I kept with the name so people would recognize the thread after creating new ones after a new edition hit.

A competitive environment is any environment where both sides try their best to win. A tournament or league at a FLGS is a competitive environment, where a narrative campaign or a game of apocalypse is not.

Last but, not least, the first posts actually tells what this thread is about. One of the rules is "back up your arguments", by the way.
So, considering all data, you're objectively wrong on what this thread is about.

This thread is for ork players on dakkadakka playing their orks armies competitively (ie. to win) in their metas, sharing their experiences and their advice with other posters to help other become better at their game.
Currently you're rarely doing that. Since you are obviously someone with a lot of knowledge, I kindly asked you multiple times to share that knowledge with all of us. If you don't want to, that's fine, but then your input is not needed in this thread.

So, if you just want to talk about top competitive games and players only without bothering about describing how top competitive tactics work to small fries, hollow one put a great amount of work into thread just dedicated to that here (yes I read it, and it's a good read, I'm just not interested in that kind of talk). Or if you find that thread wanting, create your very own one.

About grots, I'll quote Abuse Puppy:
"The reason Gretchin have value, and have always had value, is that there is a certain utility to simply being a scoring model that exists on the board, regardless of your stats. Gretchin have the same Objective Secured rule and the same ability to take up space on the board (to block reserves, stop fallbacks, etc) as any other model in the game, but at a fraction of the cost. In many games your units’ guns and stats don’t really matter a whole lot- that Plasma will kill a Space Marine just as it will a Grot, but the Grot costs a mere fraction of what the Marine does.

Unless I missed something Abuse Puppy has never played a single tournament game with his ork army. I can't even find a single battle report of him playing them at all. He has been wrong on a great many of things regarding orks since all the way back to 5th, since he usually just collects theoretical knowledge on them or applies wisdom from other armies to them without ever testing it. This is exactly what's happening here.
I would take his advice on eldar or general tactics any day, but not orks.


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 r_squared wrote:
I trialled a mix, and tbh it was just a faff. I now go dedicated choppa or shoota mobz, and I don't really use shootas all that much.
I'm up against a lot of death guard, biker spam in my meta, so shootas are just not worth it.
Ymmv.

Matches my experience, usually everyone is slugga and choppa now, since shootas do little and lose efficiency when advancing. I do put shootas on the first mob I jump though (and potentially the one I mob up into it), since they'll have more than zero impact when you fail your charge.

 r_squared wrote:
I trialled a mix, and tbh it was just a faff. I now go dedicated choppa or shoota mobz, and I don't really use shootas all that much.
I'm up against a lot of death guard, biker spam in my meta, so shootas are just not worth it.
Ymmv.

There's not much benefit to mixing a unit, realistically my boys will be stuck in on turn two if not turn one so I'm never really shooting very much unless it's a unit I plan to shoot with.
Heck, I won't even put squad weapons in my units any more, there's just no real point to it when another dedicated unit will do it better. But that's just how I see it.

This is mostly due to the increased speed in which things happen in the last two editions, maybe a few more. If all of my units were trudging up the table I'd stick in the squad weapons for sure so ever unit contributes along the way. Things are just faster now. And I want my dedicated shooters to either roll a lot of dice or hit on a BS4+ while rolling a lot of dice.

Realistically, you have 3 differnt choices for screening(YOU HAVE TO HAVE A SCREEN)

you got KMK's with grot gunners

Boyz

Gretchin

You can write a thesis on the pros and cons to each lol, but to keep it simple.

For kmks and grots. theyre going to cost a little more, but you also get some value out of the extra cost. you have a shooting unit, those grot gunners are basically characters, you get 3inch unit coherency, you can almost create 2 ranks of screens between the gun and grots, them scoring a killed unit on kmk unit is a pain in the ass because of the grot gunners.

Gretchin, theyre very cheap. you can create a 19 model screens at only 57 points, being able to cover up any deployement with the potential ability to screen 57 inches. You can bring them as a complete throw away for bombs too. And 19 models is a point where its going to be pretty annoying to waste shots on, and if they dont, you have 19 models that can take up stpace and grab stuff mid field. But if your list isnt bring ghaz or a warboss, its kind of iffy.

Boyz, well, theyre probly the more inefficient of the screens imo. because anything you're dedicating to screen, is basically going to die or take a lot of priority. So spending twice the amount of ppm vs gretchin, just to screen out bombs and AS, i cant rationalize. But i will agree, if you get first turn, those screens will get more value than a gretchin screen. I just wouldnt like to base that strat around a 43-67% chance of using it

You definitely have to pick one. Screens are way too important. Fill whatever you think best fits your strat

What's confusing to me is why you view playing orks as something different than play other armies. There isn't any mystical veil that clouds the judgement of people who haven't played orks.

All armies are the same in concept: 25,32, etc mm bases that have some numbers attached to them. Orks are no exception. Orks are a strong melee army with light shooting and some pretty good psykers. Done. You don't get +2 to hit for performing a waaagh dance where you get rated 1-10 by a row of judges or something silly that only TRUE ork players would know

This is especially true to current orks. They are as simple of an army as they come. They don't even have the codex. They run/tp/drive forward and if they reach the opponent they win. If they don't - they usually lose. I'd trust Abuse Puppy to give advice on codex armies he doesn't play. He attends major tournaments, talks to the best players and reads literally everything, afaik. When he gives advice on a simple index army - he can't really be THAT wrong.

Think about it. Instead of thinking "maybe there's a small change he's right and I'm wrong" and considering the points he made, you immediatly went to "he doesn't play orks, his opinion doesn't matter".

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Post the entire list please. I want to see what else the player had in relation to his points spend on Grots.

fe40k wrote:
How do we feel about Shoota Boyz vs Choppa Boyz?

Mathmatically, 1 WS3+ Choppa and 2 BS5+ Shootas have the same wound output (pre-modifiers);

The three biggest variables are; -1 to hit Modifier, if the Choppas are under any buffs when they attack, and if the Boyz are able to stay stuck-in between rounds (meaning an additional combat phase, and no shooting phase on your turn). There's the additional merit of softening the enemy up a little pre-charge with Shootas (which may mean an additional Boy or two gets to live/charge in).

Are we finding ourselves stick in Close Combat/Counter-charged on the opponents turn, or are they just falling back and gunning the Boys down?

I know most people prefer a 20 Choppa/10 Shoota mix, right?

I run 30 boy units and don't mix choppas with shootas. On paper its easy to say choppas output more damage than shootas, which is true in their respective ideal circumstances. The difference for me between the units is that shoota boyz are more flexible and can function as an area denial or as a major distraction, whilst the choppa boyz are my line breakers or straight up tie enemy units in combat.

Humm in my experience gretchins where very fragile... But I see now that the point is not for them to survive but only to hold during a turn off so

 Jidmah wrote:


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 r_squared wrote:
I trialled a mix, and tbh it was just a faff. I now go dedicated choppa or shoota mobz, and I don't really use shootas all that much.
I'm up against a lot of death guard, biker spam in my meta, so shootas are just not worth it.
Ymmv.

Matches my experience, usually everyone is slugga and choppa now, since shootas do little and lose efficiency when advancing. I do put shootas on the first mob I jump though (and potentially the one I mob up into it), since they'll have more than zero impact when you fail your charge.

I still prefer a 20-10 mix. Shootas are more versatile but less powerful overall when it comes to mellee. The difference is surely negligeble. Remember that all you loose is 10 attacks. It's a bit more of a damage output loss if you run a waaagh banner but i don't run a banner, so i prefer versatility. Sometimes you just need every shot you can get to thin down your enemy's screen. Besides, if the enemy shoots at you, you still loose bodies and in a mix, you can choose what bodies you need less.

Taking shootas is also a good idea for min squads that are likely to stay on objectives. They don't do much but they at least do something. And you can luck out and take a wound or two of something you need to be killed. You know, once i've killed a 3++ re-rollable flying daemon prince with a min grot squad back in 6-th.

 koooaei wrote:
...I still prefer a 20-10 mix. Shootas are more versatile but less powerful overall when it comes to mellee. The difference is surely negligeble. Remember that all you loose is 10 attacks. It's a bit more of a damage output loss if you run a waaagh banner but i don't run a banner, so i prefer versatility. Sometimes you just need every shot you can get to thin down your enemy's screen. Besides, if the enemy shoots at you, you still loose bodies and in a mix, you can choose what bodies you need less.

Taking shootas is also a good idea for min squads that are likely to stay on objectives. They don't do much but they at least do something. And you can luck out and take a wound or two of something you need to be killed. You know, once i've killed a 3++ re-rollable flying daemon prince with a min grot squad back in 6-th.

The flexibility is why I trialled the mix, I even chucked a couple of rokkits in too just to see if I could knock the odd wound off here and there, the theory being that more rokkits on the table is probably a good thing.

I actually found that it;

a) Increased game length as I man-handled my squads more and had to concern myself with placement of models to get shots off. That may have got better and quicker with practice though
b) I held back on shooting quite a bit, especially before combat. Anything that the shootas could reliably kill would mean that I may not make the charge. Anything tougher would benefit from the extra attacks in melee. The opportunities that I had to shoot something within 18" that I want going to charge were mostly much less than you'd think.
c) Going down below 20 Boyz with choppas is not as dramatic a change in output as it is with shootas. I'm not a math hammer kind of guy, but I'd definitely prefer having extra hits on 3s than 5s.
d) More rokkits is a good thing, I occasionally bung 2-3 in with a bunch of choppas to keep things interesting.

I totally see your point but i've had a couple games where having 3 x 10 shootas (10 in each squad of 30) won me the game because i was able to shoot down the screen and charge what's behind it. If i had only choppas i would have to waste a turn killing the screen and it would have been a death sentence. But having removed even a couple bases allowed not only to make a charge to the more important target but also pile in and disrupt the backline afterwards. So, that's why i prefer this loadout, i guess. Just my experience.

I've tried pure choppas, pure shootas and a mix. There were times where i wished to have shootas when i was running choppas. And when i lacked mellee choppiness when i ran pure shootas. But the mix worked out better for me and for my meta. Mind you, it's not like better all the time. It's more like: a tiny bit worse than specialised most of the time and gamechanging once in a while. My logic is that: If i'm not doing enough damage in mellee with 10 less attacks, 10 more won't change the weather. (30 more can change the weather, however, if you compare full sluggas to full shootas). But if i only have sluggas, how the hell am i gona kill those guardsmen that stand in the tank's way before charging in? Or necron scarabs. Or any squishy bauble wrap unit.

 Jidmah wrote:
So, if you just want to talk about top competitive games and players only without bothering about describing how top competitive tactics work to small fries, hollow one put a great amount of work into thread just dedicated to that here (yes I read it, and it's a good read, I'm just not interested in that kind of talk). Or if you find that thread wanting, create your very own one.

Thanks for the shout out. But I learned from making that thread that not many people are interested in talking strategy instead of list building. You asking rvd to explain why gretchin are good is a bit of a double standard, since no one is really talking about how to play anything really, people are only talking about what to bring. When the evidence says bringing gretchin is clearly a good strategy, there were multiple LVO lists that went 4/2 with gretchin, that's pretty much all you need to consider when deciding what to bring. How to play is another discussion, which we don't have enough :(

That being said, I think gretchin effectiveness and playstyle is fairly self-evident, they are the most efficient wounds per model we have (even compared to most armies) and they become exceptional when stacked with KFF and painboys. So, backfield protection and board control is their role, and they do that better than boys by double (since really you are only considering their points per board space).

What's that in the backfield that you need protecting that grots are better at than grot gunners?

fe40k wrote:
How do we feel about Shoota Boyz vs Choppa Boyz?

Mathmatically, 1 WS3+ Choppa and 2 BS5+ Shootas have the same wound output (pre-modifiers);

The three biggest variables are; -1 to hit Modifier, if the Choppas are under any buffs when they attack, and if the Boyz are able to stay stuck-in between rounds (meaning an additional combat phase, and no shooting phase on your turn). There's the additional merit of softening the enemy up a little pre-charge with Shootas (which may mean an additional Boy or two gets to live/charge in).

Are we finding ourselves stick in Close Combat/Counter-charged on the opponents turn, or are they just falling back and gunning the Boys down?

I know most people prefer a 20 Choppa/10 Shoota mix, right?

In a greentide I definitely want at least 2x30 mobz of shootaboyz. Those are the units that get jumped in turns 1 and 2. I prefer them over sluggas because they may fail the 9'' charge and at least 30 shoota can do something in the shooting phase, but also because you'll probably end up charging into some screeners and 30 shootaboyz will cause overkill anyway. If you also have a weirdboy with warpath he'll likely give that +1A to the teleported unit since in the first turn, maybe even in the second one, you won't charge with other boyz, so the 30 man mob of shootaboyz gets tons of attacks anyway.

If you go with embarked boyz I'd take slugga & choppa everytime.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, FLG calls those units "situational" in their codex reviews

Anytime FLG talks about Orkz I tend to ignore them. I am still waiting for them to apologize for their start of 8th Ork review. Is the Stompa still worth every point?


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 r_squared wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
...I still prefer a 20-10 mix. Shootas are more versatile but less powerful overall when it comes to mellee. The difference is surely negligeble. Remember that all you loose is 10 attacks. It's a bit more of a damage output loss if you run a waaagh banner but i don't run a banner, so i prefer versatility. Sometimes you just need every shot you can get to thin down your enemy's screen. Besides, if the enemy shoots at you, you still loose bodies and in a mix, you can choose what bodies you need less.

Taking shootas is also a good idea for min squads that are likely to stay on objectives. They don't do much but they at least do something. And you can luck out and take a wound or two of something you need to be killed. You know, once i've killed a 3++ re-rollable flying daemon prince with a min grot squad back in 6-th.

The flexibility is why I trialled the mix, I even chucked a couple of rokkits in too just to see if I could knock the odd wound off here and there, the theory being that more rokkits on the table is probably a good thing.

I actually found that it;

a) Increased game length as I man-handled my squads more and had to concern myself with placement of models to get shots off. That may have got better and quicker with practice though
b) I held back on shooting quite a bit, especially before combat. Anything that the shootas could reliably kill would mean that I may not make the charge. Anything tougher would benefit from the extra attacks in melee. The opportunities that I had to shoot something within 18" that I want going to charge were mostly much less than you'd think.
c) Going down below 20 Boyz with choppas is not as dramatic a change in output as it is with shootas. I'm not a math hammer kind of guy, but I'd definitely prefer having extra hits on 3s than 5s.
d) More rokkits is a good thing, I occasionally bung 2-3 in with a bunch of choppas to keep things interesting.

I don't disagree with A but

B: Shooting another unit is an option this edition, you can charge a unit even if you shot at a different one, so having the ability to plunk some long range shots into some Devestators or similar unit that is just out of range of a charge is useful

C: going below 20 doesn't affect shootas any differently then it affects Choppas. You lose 1 attack, that is it.

D: I am of the school that Ork shooting right now is a handicap and using anything but shootas is a waste of points. A 12pt Rokkit will do about .44 dmg per turn vs a T5-7 vehicle with a 3+ save. That is it. A 6pt Boy model when it charges will do .22 dmg a turn. The Boy can also be buffed to have more attacks easier and can be buffed to hit more often, where as that 12pt rokkit is just a waste of time for most of the game. At 5pts they were ok to waste points on, at 12pts they are taking the place of 2 Boyz models which do significantly more damage to more targets (except T8) and are far more durable.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, FLG calls those units "situational" in their codex reviews

Anytime FLG talks about Orkz I tend to ignore them. I am still waiting for them to apologize for their start of 8th Ork review. Is the Stompa still worth every point?


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 r_squared wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
...I still prefer a 20-10 mix. Shootas are more versatile but less powerful overall when it comes to mellee. The difference is surely negligeble. Remember that all you loose is 10 attacks. It's a bit more of a damage output loss if you run a waaagh banner but i don't run a banner, so i prefer versatility. Sometimes you just need every shot you can get to thin down your enemy's screen. Besides, if the enemy shoots at you, you still loose bodies and in a mix, you can choose what bodies you need less.

Taking shootas is also a good idea for min squads that are likely to stay on objectives. They don't do much but they at least do something. And you can luck out and take a wound or two of something you need to be killed. You know, once i've killed a 3++ re-rollable flying daemon prince with a min grot squad back in 6-th.

The flexibility is why I trialled the mix, I even chucked a couple of rokkits in too just to see if I could knock the odd wound off here and there, the theory being that more rokkits on the table is probably a good thing.

I actually found that it;

a) Increased game length as I man-handled my squads more and had to concern myself with placement of models to get shots off. That may have got better and quicker with practice though
b) I held back on shooting quite a bit, especially before combat. Anything that the shootas could reliably kill would mean that I may not make the charge. Anything tougher would benefit from the extra attacks in melee. The opportunities that I had to shoot something within 18" that I want going to charge were mostly much less than you'd think.
c) Going down below 20 Boyz with choppas is not as dramatic a change in output as it is with shootas. I'm not a math hammer kind of guy, but I'd definitely prefer having extra hits on 3s than 5s.
d) More rokkits is a good thing, I occasionally bung 2-3 in with a bunch of choppas to keep things interesting.

I don't disagree with A but

B: Shooting another unit is an option this edition, you can charge a unit even if you shot at a different one, so having the ability to plunk some long range shots into some Devestators or similar unit that is just out of range of a charge is useful

C: going below 20 doesn't affect shootas any differently then it affects Choppas. You lose 1 attack, that is it.

D: I am of the school that Ork shooting right now is a handicap and using anything but shootas is a waste of points. A 12pt Rokkit will do about .44 dmg per turn vs a T5-7 vehicle with a 3+ save. That is it. A 6pt Boy model when it charges will do .22 dmg a turn. The Boy can also be buffed to have more attacks easier and can be buffed to hit more often, where as that 12pt rokkit is just a waste of time for most of the game. At 5pts they were ok to waste points on, at 12pts they are taking the place of 2 Boyz models which do significantly more damage to more targets (except T8) and are far more durable.

All fair points but I did mention that I'm not really a math hammer guy, mainly because I find that mathematical probability is one thing, but the reality of throwing dice quite often leads to quite the different result than expected. I suppose that if you're into high end tournaments, then it is more useful.

My rokkit ploy can sometimes act like a mini distraction carnifex. I've had opponents pay inordinate attention to a mob with 3 rokkits in it because it has the potential to damage their units from a distance. They're also handy in a shoota mob too, as shooting with them is your focus anyway and the extra punch they give can be nice. But again not really an entirely mathematical decision, just based on experience. but I usually take upto 3 mobs in a game, that's 9 shots on top of any other rokkits I have which is always nice for a handful of spare points.

As to going below 20, well yes both units lose one attack, but the choppas are still putting out 3 attacks a piece, which is significant when under 20 models in combat and also when you have difficulty engaging the whole mob in combat. It has made a difference to me in the past.
So far I haven't had a situation where a mixed mob with shootas has made a difference big enough for me to routinely take them. However they can be useful for trying to clear screens. But the 10 shootas I've taken in a mixed mob have a limited capability to clear out anything but the weakest units.
A whole mob of shootas can definitely be useful, I just prefer choppas at the moment as they maximise what Boyz are good at, which is a shame because I like shoota Boyz and I just finished painting up 60 of them the other week.

At this level, i feel that mixed squads are down to personal preference, I prefer pure units myself for simplicity and speed, and if I'm up against tough units I sometimes put rokkits on everything I can, trucks, boys, anything that can take them really as it's nice to have options. Mathematically it might not be optimised, but as I mentioned before, the game isnt purely mathematical.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Post the entire list please. I want to see what else the player had in relation to his points spend on Grots.

Warboss: MiR, HwKc, Shoota, Squig
Warboss: claw, shoota squig
4x 30 choppa boyz (claw nobz)
Painboy
2x 18 stormboyz (BC nobz)

2xWeirdboy
30,30,24grots
Runtherd: stikk, hound

Snitrok
6x5 kommandos(2 burnas)

Battle report White Scars vs Orks, including gretchin
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/03/24/gftw-tournament-game-3-white-scars-vs-orks/

This is a typical example of what not to do with gretchin. Had the ork player just fielded 10 ork boyz instead of his 20 gretchin, they would have been better at everything they did.

I don't care for all the fat in that list 278 points by my count in rokkits, power klaws and some big shootas in the mobs. Could get all kinds of stuff for those points.
Could have taken 92 more grots for the points. lol

He also took a Chinork Warkopta; which doesn't serve a purpose - if it moves at all (say, deep striking), it hits on 6's; and it's not open topped, so it can't be used as a deep-striking gunboat for a choice squad either.

It's a shooty trukk - and neither of those two aspects are good at the moment. I suppose however, there's a merit for using it as a deep strike option for units without; with 1/6 chance to kill each member - but the disembarkers will just get shot up after disembarking, so...

Is ten stormboyz enough for a tournament style list? I had bought a box simply because I liked the models but was recently was gifted another. Ideally they would add to the alpha charge of 40 jumped boyz and ten kommandos Should the nob bother with a weapon upgrade?

Give the nob a pk, of course, otherwise treat them as faster choppa boys. You'll want a single group of thirty unless you have Boss Zagstruk then it's OK to split them into 3 groups of ten each with a pk.

 Hades wrote:
Is ten stormboyz enough for a tournament style list? I had bought a box simply because I liked the models but was recently was gifted another. Ideally they would add to the alpha charge of 40 jumped boyz and ten kommandos Should the nob bother with a weapon upgrade?

At 10 strong the only thing useful they could do is tie up a vehicle or squad to prevent it from shooting. They won't do any damage at that size. Generally, 20 or more is what you should shoot for.