Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.

Ha! Excellent! Someone please draw a picture of a battlewagon mowing down marines on the top of a ruin

Can just see it now, the battlewagon launching off debris and sailing over the ruin, the marines staring in disbelief as the dethrolla flies towards them....

Pepin wrote:
The new tactical reserves rule does not affect turn 1 Da Jump, because the unit was already on the battlefield. They don't 'arrive' on the battlefield.

Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the
controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere).

Problem is they are removed and then set up again. GW being sloppy we don't know thus does this limit them or not. What we know is that Da Jump etc counts as coming from reserves as per FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.

Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!

Does a trukk reach 2 floor? Maybe with a ball?

tneva82 wrote:
Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!

"Just"?

I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.

@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.

Hi guys I need to make a decision to finish off my 2k points list.

Basically I'm am taking a squad of bustas (prob only 5) and they need a ride. Do I take a trukk or a big trakk with supa skortcha?

In terms of armour I'll only have 4 KMKs, biker boss and dakka jet on the board. The the rest is boyz, nobz, t4 stuff basically.

Chinork could be alternative. Bit flimsier but faster and with advance can bring them 24" ahead(albeit ith -1 to hit which IS bad idea often). Or if you can afford waiting bring in T2 deep strike thus giving you safe arrival.

 Quackzo wrote:
So now that the chinork is open topped, what are your plans with it?
Does it make Burna boyz viable? I was thinking of filling one with burna boyz and doing a 24" move t1, dropping a bomm and burnin infantry. I contemplated doing the same with skorcha nobz but the high point cost might not be worth it if the chinork gets shot down.

The answer to "can burna boyz do this?" is always "no" for 8th edition. With 10 burnas you will get 20 hits, which just barely kills a unit of GEQ.
You could put two units of burnas in there and buy 3 spannas with kombi-skorchas for each. That's a little cheaper than nobz.

The next best thing I can think about would be flash gits, they get less hits than skorcha nobz, but are cheaper and have better AP.

Definitely loading one up with tankbustas for deepstrike. I've been struggling with vehicles to embark them on. Trukks were too squishy in my meta and supa-skorchas were good but there was some anti-synergy between the positioning I needed for tankbustas and the supa-skorcha.

I think this is the way to go. Three chinorks deep striking turn 2 and unloading rokkits and bomb squigs will leave a lasting impression. Just make sure your opponent can't table you turn one.

Well 20 automatic hits is lot better than much else orks shoot. More cost effective way to get S4 hits than say shoota boyz. And ability to turn 1 clear chaff does have value(for example to clear drop zone for tank bustas). And if enemy doesn't deal with it burn some more.

Though good point on tank bustas...Too bad chinork model costs arm and teeth and haven't found cheaper alternative.

It's basically half a trukk and two deff koptas. Buy some deff koptas on ebay, hack up a trukk kit and build one your own. That's not going to be more difficult than building the same thing out of FW resin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Well 20 automatic hits is lot better than much else orks shoot. More cost effective way to get S4 hits than say shoota boyz. And ability to turn 1 clear chaff does have value(for example to clear drop zone for tank bustas). And if enemy doesn't deal with it burn some more.

Any chaff but guardsmen will not be removed by those hits though. Either they have good saves like scouts or path finders, or they have plenty of spare models, like pox walkers, horrors or cultists.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!

"Just"?

I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.

@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.

What if a trukk drives on it's backwheels? It has an awesome spikey front ram that looks like it's designed to bite into the 2d floor.

 koooaei wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!

"Just"?

I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.

@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.

What if a trukk drives on it's backwheels? It has an awesome spikey front ram that looks like it's designed to bite into the 2d floor.

Or hell, a "Monsta Trukk" with massive wheels and suspension resulting in the hull being raised quite a way up.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's basically half a trukk and two deff koptas. Buy some deff koptas on ebay, hack up a trukk kit and build one your own. That's not going to be more difficult than building the same thing out of FW resin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Well 20 automatic hits is lot better than much else orks shoot. More cost effective way to get S4 hits than say shoota boyz. And ability to turn 1 clear chaff does have value(for example to clear drop zone for tank bustas). And if enemy doesn't deal with it burn some more.

Any chaff but guardsmen will not be removed by those hits though. Either they have good saves like scouts or path finders, or they have plenty of spare models, like pox walkers, horrors or cultists.

Scouts will lose 5 guys as well. That's not that bad hole. Better hole creator per points than many other choices orks have. What shooting you would be using to clear chaff then? Not shoota boyz at least.

Trukk+ebay koptas also doesn't sound cheap. Resin is dirt easy to work on. Problem is price.

I don't think my Kommando army is dead yet, but we definitely just took a beating with this ridiculous FAQ. Not only did they screw us on basically every rule change but they didn't even have the decency to throw us a bone like lowering the cost of some units like Warbikes or Battlewagonz.

Kommando rush will still work but it now relies HEAVILY on LOS blocking terrain and the ability to get units completely hidden before the first turn. This can be a very annoying tactic against gunline armies who hate to have to move their line in order to get any kind of LOS.

I have found that slow playing (not in the sense you take longer then you should to complete your turn) your units is better then bum rushing the enemies units turn 1. I have had several games against Imperial gun lines where I hid ALL my units in LOS blocking terrain, or out of range of their best weapons, so what did my opponent do? well two things, some just sat there and waited a full turn not doing anything, while I meanwhile maneuvered my forces into better positions and capping objectives or the other thing they do is MOVE there expensive gun lines to get into a position to shoot one or two units, this is perfect because it usually opens up a hole in there defensive screen and they forget that I have 90 Kommandos who can appear turn 2-3.

Unfortunately, this is going to be harder now because I am FORCED to wait until turn 2 to use them and can no longer immediately exploit my opponents poor deployments :(

Scouts in cover will only lose 2 models. Scouts in the open can be killed by random sluggas and shootas.

30 shoota boyz get 20 hits just like burnas, except they have 18" range and cost less. Lootas are almost as good as burnas (better if you spend the CP), and still cheaper, and KMK completely blows them out of the water.

All of them have more than 8" range.

Jidmah wrote:Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.

Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!

"Just"?

I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.

@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.

Can we please discuss this further? It is like the only actual tactic topic I've seen show up in the tactics thread after pages of army composition and math nonsense.

You are saying if you can meet the floor with the turret of the battlewagon, you move right on? Has anyone stood infantry on the battlewagon to help make base 2 base with models crowding out a floor of a ruin?

Does anyone pretend that units can make base to base contact over stairs, ladders, or other surfaces between floors of ruin that aren't necessarily modeled to make combat work onto a crowded floor of a ruin?

Can a Battlewagon's turret allow it to suddenly wobblymodel itself onto the upperlevel of anything? Or do battlewagonz park next bikes downstairs? (or was this last edition's rule and I've been missing out?)

I suggest modelling boyz with grappling hooks.

 Jidmah wrote:
Scouts in cover will only lose 2 models. Scouts in the open can be killed by random sluggas and shootas.

30 shoota boyz get 20 hits just like burnas, except they have 18" range and cost less. Lootas are almost as good as burnas (better if you spend the CP), and still cheaper, and KMK completely blows them out of the water.

All of them have more than 8" range.

Those burnas have 32" range. Plus shooting from copter. Plus smaller footprint allowing concentration of firepower

My ork list recently did every good at a maelstrom tournament. I got 6/16 and best Xenos player, beating out tau, eldar, and another ork player.

My list was a battalion and supreme command detachment.
Battalion
big mek on bike
weirdboy

2x 12boy squad with nob + pk
2x 10 boy squad with nob + pk

elite
painboy
nob with banner

heavy support
lootas x10
big trakk with supa skorcha
battlewagon with ard case, killkannon and deffrolla

dedicated transports
4x trukks with big shootas

supreme command
Ghazaghkull
warboss with pk and attack squig
warboss with relic axe and attack squig

elite
7 nobz. 2 pk and 3 big chopas.

I went 1-1-1. Tie against salamander list. Won against necron list. lost against Guilliman list. Score 6pts in game 1, 12 points in game 2, and 16 points in round 3.

Question: Is there a specific rule/terrain type known as "Ruins"? 'cause I could imagine that being very specific to something that, say, you're allowed to 'knock down', as opposed to 'all 2 or more level terrain'.

Now that Alpha strike isn't a Thing anymore and stormboyz don´t die so easily I was thinking of a very fast list.

For 1200 Points:

Batallion
HQ
Big Mek on bike + big choppa + KFF
Weirdboy
Warboss on bike + Kombi-skorcha + headwoppa

Troops
10xgretchin
25xboyz (Nob with PK)
20xboyz (Nob with PK)

Elite
Painboy on bike

Outrider detachment
HQ
Boss Zagstruk
Zhadsnark Da Ripper

Fast
10xStormboyz(Nob with PK)
10xStormboyz(Nob with PK)
10xStormboyz(Nob with PK)

Should be enough to Charge on first turn without deepstriking

Maybe to squishy?

What is your opinion?

Just wondering for anyone complaining about the no charge if you can’t physically fit your model on ruins issue... did you guys play this any different before? Outside of wobbly model syndrome... I’ve always played you need to be within 1in to attack someone. That is literally what the conclusion of you make da call was before as well!! You need to have a model fit near the unit you are charging. If you have an issue then shoot a model off for room. Personally I’m not into the whole measuring from base to base and I think the rules should be model to model from any point. That way if you model is one level below or a monstrous creature that can’t go on ruins you should still be able to charge a unit. I don’t see a reason to measure base to base unless that’s the closest point of the models.

Btw guys, the whole tactical reserves turn 1 discussion is mute. It's just a beta rule, not an official rule. The only thing affecting jumping orks is the warpath thingy.

Gruxz wrote:
Btw guys, the whole tactical reserves turn 1 discussion is mute. It's just a beta rule, not an official rule. The only thing affecting jumping orks is the warpath thingy.

3 det limit is also suggestiok. Never played anywhere where it wasn't used. Also smite was also beta rule. In use from day 1. This also will be use right away.


You talk about theory. Only real practice matters

Got game against sisters of battle with storm troopers in. I had 3 warboss, mek, weirdboy, battlewagon with meganobz, tank bustas, one warboss and painboy, 3x30 boys, 25 stormboyz, 3 kmk, dredd. He had tons of small sister units with lots of meltas, 12 heavy bolters, several scion blocks, big and small seraphim, several characters.

Diagonal dep, kill courier, acid rain.

In short i got shot. He hadn't heard of faq so we were only table without it. I jumped boyz forward, tried charge. Act of faith, 3 units shoot, boyz die as did wagon.

I charged with stormboyz, killed lot but still didn#t reach with foot boyz due to hills that funneled me. He counter attacked and shot killing meganobz, all stormboyz and 2/3 of boyz that used insane courage.

Warboss, hurt squad and last mob charged killing stuff but then time was up. His courier was about 30 sisters away, mine was running away from scions. No way i could kill, he would have been unlucky to not finish my front line and corner courier.

Ouch. Was almost outnumbered by sisters and storm troopers.

Guys, if I place my Boyz literally on the turret of the Battlewagon, if they're within 1" of the enemy on top floor of a ruins can they attack?

This is madness, the ruins ruling is unbelievably stupid. We should be able to attack up and down 1 floor. Simple, effective, fair.

tneva82 wrote:

Gruxz wrote:
Btw guys, the whole tactical reserves turn 1 discussion is mute. It's just a beta rule, not an official rule. The only thing affecting jumping orks is the warpath thingy.

3 det limit is also suggestiok. Never played anywhere where it wasn't used. Also smite was also beta rule. In use from day 1. This also will be use right away.


You talk about theory. Only real practice matters

You'll recall that the smite beta rule had a different wording (-1 modifier) to the current approved version (+1 base warp charge cost). Also the approved version has now made exceptions for mini-smites like Grey Knights. That's a big deal. Just goes to show that beta rules are indeed beta, and might not be set-in-stone. So it's not out of the question that players/tournys might choose NOT to implement beta rules, especially now that GW has shown us they're willing to budge according to player feedback.

Yes it was changed. Doesn't change the fact it was universally adopted on day 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, if I place my Boyz literally on the turret of the Battlewagon, if they're within 1" of the enemy on top floor of a ruins can they attack?

This is madness, the ruins ruling is unbelievably stupid. We should be able to attack up and down 1 floor. Simple, effective, fair.

Can't put model top of model. Bw can attack, boy is elsewhere

So let me get this right we can't jump and charge on turn 1? But after that we can?

This conversation's ridiculous, and people are reading too far into the Deep Strike / Da Jump ruling.

It's pretty damn obvious that GW meant for the DS ruling to be specifically for those in tactical reserve. The unit you're jumping in have already been deployed, and we saw this same discussion happen before with things like Da Jump'ed models being affected by Auspex Array.

I believe the final ruling was that Da Jump'ed units have already been deployed.

Sure it's sloppy wording on GW, but anyone trying to pull that on you is a dick.