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 Blackie wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


If I get warpath and ghaz bonus and daisy chain back to the Banner Nob then a PK armed Nob will get 6 attacks (if his unit is over 20) he will get 4 hits and against a T7 vehicle he will get about 3 wounds. Armor save will stop 1 so 2 go through for D3 damage so 4 dmg on average. In my opinion that isn't worth 13pts, especially when so much has to happen to even get to that level of usefulness.

Not sure about tournaments since I don't play 3 turns games but pks are a decent anti tank option. That 4 wounds caused on average must be multiplied since a nob in a 30 man squad can do his attacks more than a single time in a game and there are 4+ of them usually.

Sure replacing them with more KMKs is a more efficient option but who the hell owns tons of KMK? I have 6, which IMHO are already a lot but I always field all of them and still need the pks. With their current price and stats even 10-15 would be amazing but I don't know how many ork players can field such an artillery spam. And KMKs evaporate in a few turns if there are no vehicles in the list. Against lists that are heavy on anti tank I tipycally lose all my artillery within turn 2 if I play footsloggers.

The combination of some KMKs, smite and pks is the best anti tank we have since rokkits have extremely expensive platmforms. But again, I don't play 3 turns games and if an army that is designed basically on tying things up for three turns works well for you I wouldn't suggest changing anything since I have no real experience with that kind of games. I mean games in which tarpitting stuff isn't part of the strategy but the entire strategy.

I never play 3 turns, I just use my horde to tie things up for 3+ turns so that I can score objectives on turns 4 or 5 and he his to far away to do much about it. I am a realist when I play tournaments and I know that tactically orkz have NOTHING that can really table an opponent and we struggle to beat gun lines. So the trick is to tie up shooty units as quickly a possible and to stop the enemy from gaining board control by swamping the board with cheap throw away infantry. Generally speaking I hope to kill at least half his army before my boyz are all shot to hell and destroyed but if not I can at least use my late scoring Kommandos and fast Stormboyz to seize an objective and hunker down in some cover, preferably LOS blocking terrain.

KMKs will be facing the brunt of the enemies firepower, so good point. The problem is the give and take of the situation. is it better to field 5 KMKs (all i have mind you) for about 200pts or should I take 3 units of 5 Lootas which I believe cost 85pts each...which would mean I need to take out some other stuff in order to fit them in my list. I just don't see 3 units of lootas doing HALF as much as 5 KMKs, and especially since you can pull some shenanigans with the Grot crews and have a crew basically immune to enemy firepower and scoring an objective. Plus, while a devestator squad will delete a KMK 9 times out of 10 it will also do the exact same to a 5 man unit of lootas and the KMK will still have his grot crew hanging around afterwards.

Thanks again to everyone offering constructive criticism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I would say that having the PK's are worth it, because it is still capable of dealing damage against a heavier target. Theoretically it is possible to have volume of attacks damage something heavier but realistically most of the hits will just bounce. That might only be 4 points of damage, but it is 4 points twice a turn, on your turn and his. If you mob up 2 squads and have 2 pk's in one squad, that's 16 points per turn.

I see your point about not taking the Trukk, but doesn't that leave your KMKs to take the full power of any AT? With no pks, your KMKs are going to be your only AT, but they will disappear fast.

T7 3+ save(btw above math said 3 wounds and 1 is bounced off. What T7 2+ guys guy is meeting? Anywya average for fist will be 4.44

Anyway ghaz+warpath basic boyz with nob banner will then cause 13 wounds.

Though good arqument against that is space. It's hard to cram that many models against that T7 guy in practice. But Even against T8 if you can get that's almost 7 wounds from choppa guys.

Big choppas can also be handy. D2 is helpful with W2/T4 targets and no -1 to hit is always nice. Plus cheaper.

I was rounding T7 3+ is the most common by far, but rounding brings it down to 4 on average. Also, keep in mind. If my Boyz are tied up in combat for several turns they are in fact winning! because my opponent can't leave a horde of boys near his other units so he has to either retreat the rest of his army (unlikely) or try to find a way to extricate his unit or reinforce it, I do my absolute best to tie up enemy vehicles and units so they can't run away.

Well 4 units of boyz isn't that tough. Good gun line will take that and some stormboyz to cripled state in 3 turns.

tneva82 wrote:
Well 4 units of boyz isn't that tough. Good gun line will take that and some stormboyz to cripled state in 3 turns.

Very good point, but the difference between 140 boyz and taking the full 180 isn't that big and 180 would drastically slow down my game and I don't want to be that guy at a tournament taking every game to Turn 3 and calling it. I really wish I had more Mek Gunz :( I would gladly field 12 or even 18.

Another week, another tuesday game coming up. This time I figured I'll want to try out flash gits for fun and 30 extra gretchings I have now. Waiting for remaining 70 to arrive! Also will have movement trays maybe to help with timing.

Battalion:

Warboss(6+++, choppa relic)
weirdboy(da jump)

2x30 boyz with klaws. 30 choppa, 20 choppa/10 shoota
25 grots

runtherd

Battalion:

Warboss(power klaw)
weirdboy(da jump)

2x30 boyz, klaw+big choppa, 30 shootas, 20 shoota/10 choppa
25 grots

2xpainboy

spearhead:

big mek w/KFF

battlewagon
7xflash git
8xloota
3xKMK(separate choices)

So gits start in battlewagon. They and lootas close and under field. Another painboy is closeby along with at least 1 boyz unit as well. Rest of boyz covered by second painboy. Grots are used either as 50 effectively morale immune screen/objective holder or da jump screen depending on opposite army and do I want to throw in totally sacrificial road block/objective holder or bit more real threat. Either way I have decent amount of wounds to hold around.

Due to non-miniature related issue I actually have tomorrow time so should even get game played full 3 hours or so rather than 2h that's been max before. Costs me about 10e more but I needed to pay that anyway so combo it with this as well. Yey.

Oh and 40k FB team teased orks by saying orks aren't that far off. Of course their "not that far off" could be november for all we know :(

So any thoughts as to whether orks will stick to 28mm bases or go to 32mm?

Daemons and Genestealers have been upped.

Stormboyz are 32mm also, correct?

so far all orks are 25mm. Hopefully GW won't nerf them by that though not that it matters for me. 25mm all the way for me

Some ork boy models just barely fit their bases, let alone lootaz, nobz or burnas. I'd not be surprised if they increase base sizes.

They better boost them up then to compensate. Though i don#t care. My models are on 25mm and won't go. I don't like to make game even less tactical 32mm bases would make. Boards are tof crowded as it is

tneva82 wrote:
They better boost them up then to compensate. Though i don#t care. My models are on 25mm and won't go. I don't like to make game even less tactical 32mm bases would make. Boards are tof crowded as it is

Plus I am loath to spend that much money and time to remodel all my orkz with 32mm bases...I just don't want to go buy several hundred bases and spend a week or 3 basing and reattaching them.

 Jidmah wrote:
Some ork boy models just barely fit their bases, let alone lootaz, nobz or burnas. I'd not be surprised if they increase base sizes.

That’s not how the current GW works.
We will get a new infantry of 32mm large orks and GW will come up with some lore how these orks are larger then the rest. I am fairly sure we will get prime orks at some point.

gungo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Some ork boy models just barely fit their bases, let alone lootaz, nobz or burnas. I'd not be surprised if they increase base sizes.

That’s not how the current GW works.
We will get a new infantry of 32mm large orks and GW will come up with some lore how these orks are larger then the rest. I am fairly sure we will get prime orks at some point.

Ive always liked the idea of making Ork boyz models 2 Wounds each that don't carry over. So a Lascannon can kill 1 wound off the boy and so on. Then limit squad size to 15. So you are left with the same amount of boyz, the same amount of wounds but you have 1/2 the models, this would cause some problems but I think it would REALLY speed the game up a bit, and it would allow Orkz to use this strange thing called cover. I read a historic tome from back in the day that said Orkz used to use cover all the time...weird.

If we could do that I would be fine with 32mm Bases.

Ohh, and of course, double the number of attacks and choppas give +2 to attack instead of +1 and then for morale count # of wounds not models.

If one of my boyz would become painted every time someone mentioned primaris/primarch orks, I would have a fully painted army.

SemperMortis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They better boost them up then to compensate. Though i don#t care. My models are on 25mm and won't go. I don't like to make game even less tactical 32mm bases would make. Boards are tof crowded as it is

Plus I am loath to spend that much money and time to remodel all my orkz with 32mm bases...I just don't want to go buy several hundred bases and spend a week or 3 basing and reattaching them.

I agree, whilst larger bases for StormBoyz make sense from a stability point of view, it's a grim thought to have to rebase my entire army. I understood that you could continue to play with the original bases that they came with if they changed though? If not, I suppose I'd have to do it, but it's a pain in the arse.

Maybe 32mm ork ard boy mobz will be a thing?

 Jidmah wrote:
If one of my boyz would become painted every time someone mentioned primaris/primarch orks, I would have a fully painted army.

I feel you brother. I spend so much time painting boyz models I become burned out and refuse to touch a can of paint for a week or longer

 r_squared wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They better boost them up then to compensate. Though i don#t care. My models are on 25mm and won't go. I don't like to make game even less tactical 32mm bases would make. Boards are tof crowded as it is

Plus I am loath to spend that much money and time to remodel all my orkz with 32mm bases...I just don't want to go buy several hundred bases and spend a week or 3 basing and reattaching them.

I agree, whilst larger bases for StormBoyz make sense from a stability point of view, it's a grim thought to have to rebase my entire army. I understood that you could continue to play with the original bases that they came with if they changed though? If not, I suppose I'd have to do it, but it's a pain in the arse.

Maybe 32mm ork ard boy mobz will be a thing?

Tiny coins/metal junk to the bottom. Stability 100% fixed. Haven't had stormboy fall off after I glued those.

What models do you guys use for KMKs/Mek Guns/Big guns? Any alternate models or conversions you use besides the actual GW model?

tneva82 wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
They better boost them up then to compensate. Though i don#t care. My models are on 25mm and won't go. I don't like to make game even less tactical 32mm bases would make. Boards are tof crowded as it is

Plus I am loath to spend that much money and time to remodel all my orkz with 32mm bases...I just don't want to go buy several hundred bases and spend a week or 3 basing and reattaching them.

I agree, whilst larger bases for StormBoyz make sense from a stability point of view, it's a grim thought to have to rebase my entire army. I understood that you could continue to play with the original bases that they came with if they changed though? If not, I suppose I'd have to do it, but it's a pain in the arse.

Maybe 32mm ork ard boy mobz will be a thing?

Tiny coins/metal junk to the bottom. Stability 100% fixed. Haven't had stormboy fall off after I glued those.

Already done my friend, super glued pennies after the first time I tried to play with them yonks ago, works a treat. What I meant was that if they move orks to 32mm bases it will certainly help with that particular stability issue for new players. Everything else seems fine.

a few of my boyz have metal stikkbomb-throwing arms...I usually designate those ones as the first casualties, so I don't have to put up with the gits laying down on the job all the time!

 ZoBo wrote:
a few of my boyz have metal stikkbomb-throwing arms...I usually designate those ones as the first casualties, so I don't have to put up with the gits laying down on the job all the time!

I do the exact same thing

For stormboyz i have found that nickles work better, slightly bigger and more weight, granted they are 5x more expensive

 Billagio wrote:
What models do you guys use for KMKs/Mek Guns/Big guns? Any alternate models or conversions you use besides the actual GW model?

For the price of three sets of guns I was able to buy a 3d printer and print out a whole bunch

 davou wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
What models do you guys use for KMKs/Mek Guns/Big guns? Any alternate models or conversions you use besides the actual GW model?

For the price of three sets of guns I was able to buy a 3d printer and print out a whole bunch

Damn thats kinda a good idea. What printer did you use?

Anyone else have alternative model ideas?

MPselect mini is on amazon for sub 300 canadian right now. THe delta is there too and apparently it can do better detail faster.

I like the hobby of 3d so Im gonna upgrade really soon to a prusa.

1/8" x 3/4" fender washers are decent weight for bases plus they're magnetic for display/movement trays.

 Billagio wrote:
What models do you guys use for KMKs/Mek Guns/Big guns? Any alternate models or conversions you use besides the actual GW model?

My kannons and lobbas are from a bag of plastic civil war toys. It had 4 cannons and 4 mortars per bag for just above $12 and free shipping thanks to Amazon Prime membership. You need to remove a lot of flash before painting them, but they look really good after being painted and decorated with assorted bits from the bits box. A lot better than GW's ancients models anyways.

 Billagio wrote:
What models do you guys use for KMKs/Mek Guns/Big guns? Any alternate models or conversions you use besides the actual GW model?

I bought a Howitzer from Kromlech that I use as a Kannon/Lobba.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
What models do you guys use for KMKs/Mek Guns/Big guns? Any alternate models or conversions you use besides the actual GW model?

My kannons and lobbas are from a bag of plastic civil war toys. It had 4 cannons and 4 mortars per bag for just above $12 and free shipping thanks to Amazon Prime membership. You need to remove a lot of flash before painting them, but they look really good after being painted and decorated with assorted bits from the bits box. A lot better than GW's ancients models anyways.

Got a link to the models you bought? Im guessing they are an appropriate size?

Had nice game today. Got even good start from the get-go as today I was on car which meant no need to rush to the train which meant full time game! Have to consider for future. Costs about 10e per game that way but maybe worth it.

Anyway I took bit less optimized list for sake of more interesting list but as local games are friendly rather than cut throat that helps. Anyway standard warboss w/relic and 6+++(god I hope codex gives more options for warboss worth fielding). Another warboss w/power klaw, 2 weirdboys with da jump, big mek w/kff, 4x30 boyz. Bad moons w/all shootas, goffs with all choppas, evil sunz with 19 choppa/10 shoota and dethskulls with reverse ratio and big choppa nob. 2x25 grots, runtherd with squig, 2 painboys, 8 loota, 7 flashgit, battlewagon. That should have naked but thought it had big shoota but luckily it caused zero wounds through armour. Oh and 3 KMK. 2 battallions, 1 spearhead for 14 CP's.

I was up against familiar space wolf player. This was like 3rd game. He's one of the more casual players having armies that I could easily see myself using. Bit different this time with even MORE marines. He had warlord lietnaunt something, rune priest on jump pack, another on termi armour, 4 big squads of foot marines. 10-15 guys, blood claws and grey hunters present. devastator squad with 3 lascannon and missile launcher(s), another with plasma cannon(s) and 3 missile launcher(could they have 5 HW? Don't recall. Not that I suspect he cheats but I don't recall how many weapons they had! 3 lascannon on one and 3 missile launcher on one and then at least one plasma on missile squad and 1 missile on lascannon squad as minimum). BIG terminator squad with thunder hammers, fists and lightning claws. Dreadnought w/lascannon and fist with heavy flamer, 5 snipers.

I actually was up against list that was fairly good for me! I had some nice tools against this army. We rolled the race to 10 maelstroms.

As can be seen from photos I Finally have movement trays which were big help. Not just in terms of moving but it makes easy to calculate how many shootas/pistols I shoot! Unexpected bonus I hadn't thought! YES! Best miniature related purchases ever I think!

Deployment I think I really should start putting KMK's first as I run into space issues. On right side I had serious roadblock issue due to terrain there(he got to choose side. BTW terrain wise he put hills first, I put ruins next). I decided to put my shooty elements there as that was tough for boyz swarms so basically grot block and goffs were there along with battlewagon with flashgits and lootas. I got turn 1.

Turn 1: My objectives were not good. Get to his DZ, hold my DZ(not scorable first turn), get objective 5 which is dead center on his DZ...Yep. That ain't reachable short of some da jump and very high charge roll but I have other plans. I rush forward with advance on nearly everything. Psychic. Usually I would Da Jump boyz here and try to charge...Problem is that is 50-50 and if I fail and don't get to do some damage to his squads I get shot and charged and could easily lose 25% of my boyz...It's not worst gambles and wouldn't be disaster if I fail but I felt I could play the slow route here. So I employed some Mork's Kunning and Da Jumped the gretchin from my LEFT into front of 10 grey hunters on my far right. This aimed following things. a) prevent any chance of him charging my goffs period b) if he charges gretchin he opens up wrap up charge from gretchin c) I have 25 grots hitting on 3+ on shooting. I might even kill some. And if I shoot them enough I might even charge them. Sure they are in trouble but it locks them up for goff follow up charge next turn. So they went there.

Shooting. Lootas, KMK's and flashgits open up. Flash gits rip apart several grey hunters and grot take out one. Yey. Lascannon devastators lose some guys. Think I killed blood claw or two. Not biggest casualties yet but that grey hunter squad took up beating. And grots actually managed to charge! I wondered if I should risk it but figured stand&shoot won't kill all and they will still do their job and all the casualties meant unlikely I will get wiped out. Especially as I can use CP as only BAD result is getting wiped out and give easy charge against goffs. As it is grots take beating without killing anything(wounding on 6 sucks) but still healthy number left and those grey hunters are locked. Good. Alas I had 3 grots who didn't reach his DZ so didn't get behind the enemy lines objective(another reason I charged).

His turn. Mostly stands back. Psychic nothing. Shooting. Causes 5 wounds to battlewagon(think I saved one with reroll), kills some orks here and there but overall fairly light casualties. Dreadnought charged against gretchings but after combat few gretchins were STILL alive. Mwahaha. His objectives were worthless.

Turn 2. I moved forward with evil sunz and dethskulls but didn't advance. On right goffs rushed forward to charge against grey hunters. Second gretching block forms screen between blood claws and right side. Psychic. Da Jump is cast on bad moons sending the shoota boyz on my left flank against his grey hunters there. Shooting. Bad moons cause some casualties. Flash gits rip out with more dakka strategem against blood claws causing heavy casualties and gretchin again kill like 1. I killed 2 scouts as I realized those sniper rifles are annoying. I forgot to shoot lootas, dethskulls and evil sunz for some 30 shootas with grey hunters(I think) ahead of them....whooops. Combat. Bad moons charged grey hunters and killed all but 2. On right goffs charged grey hunters and killed several leaving like 2 left. Center with plenty casualties to blood claws and runtherd nearby gretchin charged blood claws to tie them up. Lost some, runtherd kept them in place. Next! Scored keep own DZ with 3 own units. On right dreadnought still finished to kill gretchins.

His turn. Objectives still suck(defend objectives I'm holding being story of his game...). Not much movement but terminators and the rune priest appear on right behind goffs. Goffs got bit nervous. Magic he sniped 2 goffs. I tried to push distance between them and terminators though 1 more would have been helpful. Shooting he dents battlewagon for 4 more wounds. Orks die here and there but overall casualties are well in acceptable. Combat. Terminators roll 6 and 1 for charge so he rerolls the 1 with CP and gets another 6 so terminators charged into rear of goffs. OUCH! Grey hunters charged dethskulls. Think I killed 1 or 2 in overwatch. Combat. He started with them and killed quite a few dethskulls. I intercepted and goffs struct finishing up grey hunters and killed 2 terminators. Yey! Too bad nob was in combat with the grey hunters. In return goffs got quite a beating leaving like dozen left there. Gretchins did die. Bad moons cleared the remaining 2 marines and dethskulls killed some more. I scored some kill based card.

Looking good. Turn 3. I got good cards as apart from secure 5 which was the one center of his DZ I got same AGAIN and also secure 6 which was where my flash gits were! However those terminators were a worry and no way in hell dozen goffs can do it. There's still 5 terminators there! KMK's are out of LOS due to terrain. What to do? Employ some more Mork's Kunning! That's what. First up. Goffs fell out of combat. So did gretchins vs blood claws forming loose line. Warlord rolled for advance and got 6 which was more than enough so I decided to try to use him to thin some terminators. Hopefully after shooting weakens them a bit! But overwatch is worry and well it IS 5 terminators so...More kunning idea's. Flash gits disembarked and battlewagon rushed forward. Figured I use that to eat assault cannon overwatch and tag one guy out of combat if warlord rolls well charge range.

Magic. I killed one blood claw with smite and da jumped evil suns into objective 5 for 2 vp's. Shooting. Bad moons shoot at 3 scouts and kill them in hail of shoota shots. KMK's kill I think 2 lascannons. Maybe something more. On right however shooting fails. Flash gits open up with 21 shots and get just 1 wound. Then 7 loota(1 didn't see) shoots 21 shots and kills none. BTW screwed up order. First D2 lootas, then D1 flashgits. 42 shots with -1 or -2 and just one wound...At this point warlord was "oh gak" but charged in anyway. Bad moons charged vs his warlord. Alas my charges completely whiffed though warlord only took 1 wound. Dethskulls finished up grey hunters.

His turn his objectives STILL sucked with defend 6(flash gits) etc. He killed gretchins and shot one KMK and this and that. Combat he killed my warlord but only barely but opted to quit. He was behind on vp's even with this 6-1 and I would be killing HIS warlord almost certainly(good luck surviving over 20 boyz with klaw nob forever). I had 2 more easily archievable objectives and he had none he really could. I would be hitting his terminators hard and he had basically no army left anymore!

Flash gits were surprisingly useful here. Sure not uber competive but if opponents aren't either that's less of issue and here I had very nice army to face with them with plenty of power armour assaulty units to blow. Gretchins also found good usage here. For him the terminators were biggest heroes and the terrain helped to keep them safe as I couldn't draw bead on them with KMK's. Though if that charge had failed he would have been in trouble.

 Orodhen wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
What models do you guys use for KMKs/Mek Guns/Big guns? Any alternate models or conversions you use besides the actual GW model?

I bought a Howitzer from Kromlech that I use as a Kannon/Lobba.

Wow, nice! I always thought Kromlech was very expensive but these babies are about half what GW charges for Mek Gunz. I think I'll still wait for the codex before buying any, but these bad boyz jumped to the top of my want list.

gotta keep in mind though, there's "mek gunz" and "big gunz"...those kromlech one fit the bill nicely for "big gunz"...not too sure about using them as "mek gunz" though, as they're a fair bit bulkier...

...another thing to keep in mind is that you will still need 5 grot models to go with any third-party/scratch-built mek gunz, whereas the GW ones come with them in the kit.

I still haven't gotten around to buying/making any mek gunz yet myself, and at this point, I think I'm just gonna stick it out until the codex comes out...because the cynical old git side of me is fully expecting some kind of nerf or points increase or something on them, sheerly because they're actually a decent option for us at the moment

 ZoBo wrote:
gotta keep in mind though, there's "mek gunz" and "big gunz"...those kromlech one fit the bill nicely for "big gunz"...not too sure about using them as "mek gunz" though, as they're a fair bit bulkier...

...another thing to keep in mind is that you will still need 5 grot models to go with any third-party/scratch-built mek gunz, whereas the GW ones come with them in the kit.

I still haven't gotten around to buying/making any mek gunz yet myself, and at this point, I think I'm just gonna stick it out until the codex comes out...because the cynical old git side of me is fully expecting some kind of nerf or points increase or something on them, sheerly because they're actually a decent option for us at the moment

LOL very true, I have 5 at the moment and they tend to appear in most of my lists. Ironically you hit the nail on the head, they are decent, not great. Specifically the KMK. I have yet to go an entire 5-6 round game where I don't lose at least 1 KMK to overheating itself. We REALLY need a way to negate that and to make those mek gunz either tougher or less a target priority.

It is a lot of fun though to watch the eldar player who let his Precious tanks meander a little too far out of cover and catch 5x D6 S8 shots to the face