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slave.entity wrote: Yes, pure daemons seem like they can be very hit or miss depending on whether or not your opponent can deal with plaguebearers.
What I'm talking about is running some sort of triple battalion comp to fund your daemon bombs. Ideally, one detachment has Ahriman and at least 1 TSons DP in it. The other detachments should be built around either more TSons DPs or a Skullreaver DP, with Scrivener and other heralds filling them out to meet battalion requirements. It's the fact that heralds and troops are so flexible, useful, and cheap that allows us fill battalions easily.
18CP lets me auto pass morale every turn and the only valid shooting targets on the board T1 are the T8 4++ TSon leviathan with -1 to hit, the -2 to hit plaguebearers, and the cultists/nurglings. The leviathan also moves and shoots at BS2 thanks to Prescience. Starting T2 the pinks start dropping down to clear screens and make room for the bloodletters which generally nuke the biggest threat T3. After T3 anything left standing dies to the 6 psykers smiting, who are still probably untargetable since it's unlikely that the opponent has killed all daemon troops due to auto-pass morale. So far I haven't had any trouble demolishing flyers thanks to the Leviathan + smite spam + the DPs.
For knights I swap out one of the Tsons DPs for a Skullreaver DP but I haven't seem them much in my local meta so I've found that the second Tsons DP is generally more well-rounded.
Mono daemons will always be weaker than cherry picked soup but that's to be expected. It's the same as all of the other soup factions. Ynnari > pure CWE, DE/CWE > pure DE, Imperial soup > pure IG/pure marines/etc. Daemon soup is probably one of the strongest builds Chaos has access to.
What I'm finding though is mixed daemons in the context of competitive soup builds is actually really really strong. I'm not the most experienced 40k player or anything but I've been driving the above list at my local store and it has been steamrolling.
Weirdly enough, I've found that the least necessary things to have in these builds are the daemonic loci. The Nurgle one is great for pure Nurgle lists but outside of that I find the loci to be in the "nice but not absolutely necessary" category. The success rate on a Banner of Blood charge without CP reroll is already above 85%. And the Tzeentch loci is useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing that pure daemons have trouble with: tough beatsticks with high saves/high invulns.
Luckily 18" Death Hexes with +3 to cast are a thing.
Ah, I see your ploy. I suppose you don't encounter many Culexus Assassins or Eldar in your meta?
The issue with Demons is that they are really a one trick pony; they do one thing really well and thats spam troops. But their troops, in all honesty, are not that hard to kill; many things could care less about -1 or -2 to hit PB's, if anything they will ignore them and kill other stuff first (especially because its just one unit, and its only moving 5 +d6). Even using two units of 30 they go down quickly to a well built list, or Orks. Orks are really good at chopping up plaguebearers.
I have found Demons are good at holding the line, and thats about it. The Demon princes are definitely better than CSM ones, but they are still subpar when compared to Death Guard and 1k sons princes. I built the Bloodletters with the intent to try them (eventually), but my meta is heavily top-tier oriented; meaning a good handful of players use the "best" lists from their codices to good effect. Multiple people use 7+ flier IG, Castellan lists are common and several 3+ knights lists, the Ork players utilize Lootas and tons of boyz with 18+ CP to run them, and seems like the new "hotness" is going to be Intercessor marines and MW spam.
Your list is interesting, definitely not my style, but interesting none the less.
One other thing I'd like to mention; Nurgles Locus is very, very good when used properly. Your Plaguebearers can be D5 with Virulent Blessing rolling 6's with a banner for a turn. I use it often to make my PBC's spitters D2, it works on nurgle demon vehicles as well
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/27 23:49:51
blackmage wrote: i play in ETC never had such drama so i confirm what i said thanks.
What you actually said was "i play only competitive, there never that kind of problems." You didn't mention the ETC at all, until it was pointed out that your latest statement, like many of your previous ones, was overbroad and unsupportable.
It took me less than thirty seconds on google to discover that there are in fact numerous documented instances of people cheating in ETC events.
I never had if you keep lurking internet then trying to show the opposite you can do, i personally in about 1 hundred of games in 8th edition in ETC, never had such problems, period.
Ps: you have a nice button called block use it and save pain ty
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Something i have found is the argument of the skullreaver dp vs the king of blades dp vs knights.
Most knigts are found in soup list are made a character so to get the warlord trait and artifact for free. That means the dp with the sword gets 5 str 8 ap-4 3d attacks hitting on 2's rerolling 1's and probably wound on 4's rerolling. The axe gives you 5 str 10 attacks so wounding on 3's rerolling wounds vs titanics doing d6dmg.
Myself i think the sword is more useful as chrs are more prevalent than titanic units. That and flat 3 is better than d6.
slave.entity wrote: Yes, pure daemons seem like they can be very hit or miss depending on whether or not your opponent can deal with plaguebearers.
What I'm talking about is running some sort of triple battalion comp to fund your daemon bombs. Ideally, one detachment has Ahriman and at least 1 TSons DP in it. The other detachments should be built around either more TSons DPs or a Skullreaver DP, with Scrivener and other heralds filling them out to meet battalion requirements. It's the fact that heralds and troops are so flexible, useful, and cheap that allows us fill battalions easily.
18CP lets me auto pass morale every turn and the only valid shooting targets on the board T1 are the T8 4++ TSon leviathan with -1 to hit, the -2 to hit plaguebearers, and the cultists/nurglings. The leviathan also moves and shoots at BS2 thanks to Prescience. Starting T2 the pinks start dropping down to clear screens and make room for the bloodletters which generally nuke the biggest threat T3. After T3 anything left standing dies to the 6 psykers smiting, who are still probably untargetable since it's unlikely that the opponent has killed all daemon troops due to auto-pass morale. So far I haven't had any trouble demolishing flyers thanks to the Leviathan + smite spam + the DPs.
For knights I swap out one of the Tsons DPs for a Skullreaver DP but I haven't seem them much in my local meta so I've found that the second Tsons DP is generally more well-rounded.
Mono daemons will always be weaker than cherry picked soup but that's to be expected. It's the same as all of the other soup factions. Ynnari > pure CWE, DE/CWE > pure DE, Imperial soup > pure IG/pure marines/etc. Daemon soup is probably one of the strongest builds Chaos has access to.
What I'm finding though is mixed daemons in the context of competitive soup builds is actually really really strong. I'm not the most experienced 40k player or anything but I've been driving the above list at my local store and it has been steamrolling.
Weirdly enough, I've found that the least necessary things to have in these builds are the daemonic loci. The Nurgle one is great for pure Nurgle lists but outside of that I find the loci to be in the "nice but not absolutely necessary" category. The success rate on a Banner of Blood charge without CP reroll is already above 85%. And the Tzeentch loci is useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing that pure daemons have trouble with: tough beatsticks with high saves/high invulns.
Luckily 18" Death Hexes with +3 to cast are a thing.
Ah, I see your ploy. I suppose you don't encounter many Culexus Assassins or Eldar in your meta?
The issue with Demons is that they are really a one trick pony; they do one thing really well and thats spam troops. But their troops, in all honesty, are not that hard to kill; many things could care less about -1 or -2 to hit PB's, if anything they will ignore them and kill other stuff first (especially because its just one unit, and its only moving 5 +d6). Even using two units of 30 they go down quickly to a well built list, or Orks. Orks are really good at chopping up plaguebearers.
I have found Demons are good at holding the line, and thats about it. The Demon princes are definitely better than CSM ones, but they are still subpar when compared to Death Guard and 1k sons princes. I built the Bloodletters with the intent to try them (eventually), but my meta is heavily top-tier oriented; meaning a good handful of players use the "best" lists from their codices to good effect. Multiple people use 7+ flier IG, Castellan lists are common and several 3+ knights lists, the Ork players utilize Lootas and tons of boyz with 18+ CP to run them, and seems like the new "hotness" is going to be Intercessor marines and MW spam.
Your list is interesting, definitely not my style, but interesting none the less.
One other thing I'd like to mention; Nurgles Locus is very, very good when used properly. Your Plaguebearers can be D5 with Virulent Blessing rolling 6's with a banner for a turn. I use it often to make my PBC's spitters D2, it works on nurgle demon vehicles as well
yes right but... missions are won mostly on objectives, maybe ITC is different but here have a large reliable and durable core of troops is like gold, i run 90/120 Pb's i found in many matches only 1 list that dispatched them all from the table (and needed 5 whole turns and some very bad save rolls from my side), and still succumbed to 60 letters and Dp', i have 18 Cp too im just thunking to switch 20 letters for 30 demonettes+herald and/or masque, pretty better to rip apart large infantry mobs like tyr orks or other demons, with slaanesh stratagems/traits and psy power you can greatly reduce units melee power, i tested against orks and i saw what they can do, 91 attacks rerolling to hit (if needed) generating extra attacks at 6+ and can hit on 2+ more than enough to crush more or less anything.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/28 01:09:03
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Azuza001 wrote: Something i have found is the argument of the skullreaver dp vs the king of blades dp vs knights.
Most knigts are found in soup list are made a character so to get the warlord trait and artifact for free. That means the dp with the sword gets 5 str 8 ap-4 3d attacks hitting on 2's rerolling 1's and probably wound on 4's rerolling. The axe gives you 5 str 10 attacks so wounding on 3's rerolling wounds vs titanics doing d6dmg.
Myself i think the sword is more useful as chrs are more prevalent than titanic units. That and flat 3 is better than d6.
S16. Not S10.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Ah, I see your ploy. I suppose you don't encounter many Culexus Assassins or Eldar in your meta?
The issue with Demons is that they are really a one trick pony; they do one thing really well and thats spam troops. But their troops, in all honesty, are not that hard to kill; many things could care less about -1 or -2 to hit PB's, if anything they will ignore them and kill other stuff first (especially because its just one unit, and its only moving 5 +d6). Even using two units of 30 they go down quickly to a well built list, or Orks. Orks are really good at chopping up plaguebearers.
I have found Demons are good at holding the line, and thats about it. The Demon princes are definitely better than CSM ones, but they are still subpar when compared to Death Guard and 1k sons princes. I built the Bloodletters with the intent to try them (eventually), but my meta is heavily top-tier oriented; meaning a good handful of players use the "best" lists from their codices to good effect. Multiple people use 7+ flier IG, Castellan lists are common and several 3+ knights lists, the Ork players utilize Lootas and tons of boyz with 18+ CP to run them, and seems like the new "hotness" is going to be Intercessor marines and MW spam.
Your list is interesting, definitely not my style, but interesting none the less.
One other thing I'd like to mention; Nurgles Locus is very, very good when used properly. Your Plaguebearers can be D5 with Virulent Blessing rolling 6's with a banner for a turn. I use it often to make my PBC's spitters D2, it works on nurgle demon vehicles as well
I can't imagine a Culexus being much of a problem when I have so many casters with the option to cast at +3. I also do have Eldar in my meta and they get wrecked by simply not having enough shots to remove each blob. Don't get me wrong, there are some meta lists I haven't played against that scare me, but those aren't it. Large blobs of fearless daemon hordes basically invalidate enemy heavy weapons which is often times most of the enemy list given our anti-knight meta. I've also played againt Orks once and tabled them, though it wasn't the competitive loota star list.
I'd like to play against more knights but sadly I haven't encountered them much yet. With Skullreaver and bloodletters and the massed, fearless invulns I'd expect to do well however.
The list that scares me the most is the Castellan/Catachan/Bullgryn list because it kind of does a similar thing that my list does except possibly better.
I'm not a fan of 60 plaguebearers except in pure Nurgle builds and even then it doesn't seem like enough to put real pressure on your opponent's troop clearing ability since they will always target the unbuffed squad. It's not an issue with 90 or 120 plaguebearers since that starts to exceed a threshold in the amount of enemy anti-infantry, but 60 seems like it presents the most obvious counterplay to your opponent.
With just 30 plaguebearers we force the opponent to waste their quality shots on -2 to hit. Likewise with just 1 leviathan dreadnought (instead of 2 levi, or 3 contemptor) we force the opponent to fire at the one target that's been buffed to hell by Ahriman, maximizing the value we get from all of our offensive/defensive spells.
I'm generally not a fan of any of the non-Tsons DPs because it's really hard to beat cast 2 deny 1...and unnerfed smite spam... and +6" cast range... and Cabalistic Focus. The only exception I make here is for Skullreaver but that's definitely a meta pick and doesn't do as well against non-knight/non-heavy armor spam.
strength is 11 o charge and 10 normally, skullreaver Dp wound on 3 rerolling anything, not counting he can deliver mortal wounds, and ap -4 that's huge (wont let anything without a TSI save), 3 flat damge can be better average, but that monster excel killing big things and d6 is useful, demons dont need a skullreaver Dp to kill characters they have plenty of tools to erase character from the table, they need to delete Ik's or large veichles. Every model have a specific task in a demon list, that's why they arent so brainless to play.
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blackmage wrote: im just thunking to switch 20 letters for 30 demonettes+herald and/or masque, pretty better to rip apart large infantry mobs like tyr orks or other demons, with slaanesh stratagems/traits and psy power you can greatly reduce units melee power, i tested against orks and i saw what they can do, 91 attacks rerolling to hit (if needed) generating extra attacks at 6+ and can hit on 2+ more than enough to crush more or less anything.
I've been thinking about this too recently. Normally I use 40x pinks for guaranteed 120x S4 shots to clear away screen but at 6 points each daemonettes are looking a lot more attractive. Really my whole list depends on me having enough daemon bombs to clear away the screens T2 exposing the juicy innards for the Khorne daemons to rip apart. I've won all my games with it so far, ITC and Eternal War/Maelstrom. But as I said I'm fairly new to the competitive scene and haven't had a chance to run it against some of the top tier lists. The strongest lists I've beaten with it so far are DE/Harlequin haywire spam and DE/CWE soup.
Skullreaver only rerolls against titanic. I forgot to add the +1 str and attack on the charge. That actually helps my point, str 9 vs str 11 is wounding on 3's, both weapons are ap-4, but one rerolls wounds vs chrs the other vs titanic. I still think flat 3 is better than d6 here. The only extra point the axe gets is d3 mortal wounds on wound roll of 6.
So point still stands, you will find chrs more often than titanics and both weapons will mess a chr knight up right quick in cc (and as i mentioned you normally see big knights in soup lists where they are a chr). If your building a list for tournament use this is a better loadout option, or at least a viable loadout option for your dp to run. Personally i run 30 bloodletters and a herald with the crown as my knight killer option and the dp is a backup.
When you're dealing with 24 wounds, needing only 7 successful wounds as opposed to 8 is better. Not to mention, you can spend a CP to reroll a low damage roll.
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blackmage wrote: Every model have a specific task in a demon list, that's why they arent so brainless to play.
This is what I've been finding most engaging about competitive daemons. Just having access to a variety of highly specialized, highly effective troops units makes list building a lot of fun. IIRC last month Daemon soup was the 4th top placing faction in ITC right behind DE, Imp Soup, and Ynnari. And for good reason.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: Skullreaver only rerolls against titanic. I forgot to add the +1 str and attack on the charge. That actually helps my point, str 9 vs str 11 is wounding on 3's, both weapons are ap-4, but one rerolls wounds vs chrs the other vs titanic. I still think flat 3 is better than d6 here. The only extra point the axe gets is d3 mortal wounds on wound roll of 6.
So point still stands, you will find chrs more often than titanics and both weapons will mess a chr knight up right quick in cc (and as i mentioned you normally see big knights in soup lists where they are a chr). If your building a list for tournament use this is a better loadout option, or at least a viable loadout option for your dp to run. Personally i run 30 bloodletters and a herald with the crown as my knight killer option and the dp is a backup.
Khorne DPs are only worth it because of Skullreaver. Skullreaver is only worth it in a titanic-heavy meta. The mortal wounds on 6s can be insane sometimes. Totally anecdotal, but last time my Skullreaver fought titanic it inflicted 33 wounds in one swing. Didn't even have to Frenetic Bloodlust.
Otherwise, speaking in pure competitive terms, another TSons DP is far more useful, and basically does the same thing against your average non-titanic targets.
Ah, I see your ploy. I suppose you don't encounter many Culexus Assassins or Eldar in your meta?
The issue with Demons is that they are really a one trick pony; they do one thing really well and thats spam troops. But their troops, in all honesty, are not that hard to kill; many things could care less about -1 or -2 to hit PB's, if anything they will ignore them and kill other stuff first (especially because its just one unit, and its only moving 5 +d6). Even using two units of 30 they go down quickly to a well built list, or Orks. Orks are really good at chopping up plaguebearers.
I have found Demons are good at holding the line, and thats about it. The Demon princes are definitely better than CSM ones, but they are still subpar when compared to Death Guard and 1k sons princes. I built the Bloodletters with the intent to try them (eventually), but my meta is heavily top-tier oriented; meaning a good handful of players use the "best" lists from their codices to good effect. Multiple people use 7+ flier IG, Castellan lists are common and several 3+ knights lists, the Ork players utilize Lootas and tons of boyz with 18+ CP to run them, and seems like the new "hotness" is going to be Intercessor marines and MW spam.
Your list is interesting, definitely not my style, but interesting none the less.
One other thing I'd like to mention; Nurgles Locus is very, very good when used properly. Your Plaguebearers can be D5 with Virulent Blessing rolling 6's with a banner for a turn. I use it often to make my PBC's spitters D2, it works on nurgle demon vehicles as well
I can't imagine a Culexus being much of a problem when I have so many casters with the option to cast at +3. I also do have Eldar in my meta and they get wrecked by simply not having enough shots to remove each blob. Don't get me wrong, there are some meta lists I haven't played against that scare me, but those aren't it. Large blobs of fearless daemon hordes basically invalidate enemy heavy weapons which is often times most of the enemy list given our anti-knight meta. I've also played againt Orks once and tabled them, though it wasn't the competitive loota star list.
I'd like to play against more knights but sadly I haven't encountered them much yet. With Skullreaver and bloodletters and the massed, fearless invulns I'd expect to do well however.
The list that scares me the most is the Castellan/Catachan/Bullgryn list because it kind of does a similar thing that my list does except possibly better.
I'm not a fan of 60 plaguebearers except in pure Nurgle builds and even then it doesn't seem like enough to put real pressure on your opponent's troop clearing ability since they will always target the unbuffed squad. It's not an issue with 90 or 120 plaguebearers since that starts to exceed a threshold in the amount of enemy anti-infantry, but 60 seems like it presents the most obvious counterplay to your opponent.
With just 30 plaguebearers we force the opponent to waste their quality shots on -2 to hit. Likewise with just 1 leviathan dreadnought (instead of 2 levi, or 3 contemptor) we force the opponent to fire at the one target that's been buffed to hell by Ahriman, maximizing the value we get from all of our offensive/defensive spells.
I'm generally not a fan of any of the non-Tsons DPs because it's really hard to beat cast 2 deny 1...and unnerfed smite spam... and +6" cast range... and Cabalistic Focus. The only exception I make here is for Skullreaver but that's definitely a meta pick and doesn't do as well against non-knight/non-heavy armor spam.
Have you been running mostly DG/Nurgle daemons?
I post a lot of battle reports here, I run a mix depending on the day and how I'm feeling; but mostly testing different ideas against a wide variety of opponents. Generally I run Nurgle Demons just as interference with my kill power coming from various sources.
That said, obviously you haven't faced the stupid assassin, because yes... he really is a big deal for a list like yours that revolves around psychic powers to operate, most of your stuff will be -1 or -2 to cast aside from whomever you strat. As well, a Nurgle Demon prince with the Supporating Plate is probably one of the best CC threats in the game, not to mention a massive force multiplier in the Death Guard force. You being fearless negates the reason you take instruments; as you cannot roll then make them fearless to circumvent not rolling a 1 (which you also take a piper for...) Savy opponents won't target a single unit, rather split fire to force you to morale multiple units and hopefully kill off something.
I'm not saying your list is stupid or anything, its not my style, and definitely wouldn't fare well in my area. Also, as a counter point, some lists (i.e. Prophets of Flesh) are top tier mono-codex lists, and your going to see way more marines now with the massive points drops. I actually face Grey Knights enough that they make me regret taking mostly demon stuff... rerolling everything against us and having Dread Knights that fight again after you kill them is annoying.
yes right but... missions are won mostly on objectives, maybe ITC is different but here have a large reliable and durable core of troops is like gold, i run 90/120 Pb's i found in many matches only 1 list that dispatched them all from the table (and needed 5 whole turns and some very bad save rolls from my side), and still succumbed to 60 letters and Dp', i have 18 Cp too im just thunking to switch 20 letters for 30 demonettes+herald and/or masque, pretty better to rip apart large infantry mobs like tyr orks or other demons, with slaanesh stratagems/traits and psy power you can greatly reduce units melee power, i tested against orks and i saw what they can do, 91 attacks rerolling to hit (if needed) generating extra attacks at 6+ and can hit on 2+ more than enough to crush more or less anything.
ITC is massively different; ITC you pick the secondary objectives when you start the game based on your list and your opponents. As well, ITC implements a timer now (you and your opponent each get only 90 minutes). ETC is very objective heavy, while ITC balances killing power with your ability to stay around; you score points each turn for killing AND holding objectives, but not more than 1 of each point; so holding multiple objectives isn't a massive deal. Many people run completely elite armies and fare just fine.. Don Hoosons list for LVO seems like it will be 3x Chaos Fliers, 3x Deredeo Dreads, 3x PBC, and a Demon Prince with 10 Terminators
Azuza001 wrote: Skullreaver only rerolls against titanic. I forgot to add the +1 str and attack on the charge. That actually helps my point, str 9 vs str 11 is wounding on 3's, both weapons are ap-4, but one rerolls wounds vs chrs the other vs titanic. I still think flat 3 is better than d6 here. The only extra point the axe gets is d3 mortal wounds on wound roll of 6.
So point still stands, you will find chrs more often than titanics and both weapons will mess a chr knight up right quick in cc (and as i mentioned you normally see big knights in soup lists where they are a chr). If your building a list for tournament use this is a better loadout option, or at least a viable loadout option for your dp to run. Personally i run 30 bloodletters and a herald with the crown as my knight killer option and the dp is a backup.
Khorne DPs are only worth it because of Skullreaver. Skullreaver is only worth it in a titanic-heavy meta. The mortal wounds on 6s can be insane sometimes. Totally anecdotal, but last time my Skullreaver fought titanic it inflicted 33 wounds in one swing. Didn't even have to Frenetic Bloodlust.
Otherwise, speaking in pure competitive terms, another TSons DP is far more useful, and basically does the same thing against your average non-titanic targets.
Thing is in a tournament you are locked into a list... so a Skullreaver DP is far more beneficial in a "general" meta sense because you are far more likely to encounter Knights in most areas. If your local meta favors something else, which seems to be the case, then your 1k sons would be a valid choice over it.
Personally, I just run both if I'm using my 1k sons... I rather have Skullreaver and not need it, then not have it when I need it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/28 02:02:06
I'd love to play against a Culexus list some time. I imagine my list has enough screen to keep it very far away from all of my casters. They always deploy in the backline so it's unlikely that their spells fail to cast due to having High Magister, Ahriman, and +6" cast range.
I'd have pinks clear whatever infantry screen the Culexus is hiding behind while the leviathan gets prescience'd to hit it on 5s and blow it away.
Power armor is not very scary because of bloodletters and pinks both wounding on 3s.
The IG flyer spam list you mentioned does sound scary though.
another fact to consider is Ts Dp need his own detachment you cant use it in a demon detachment, playing 2 letters bombs and a demonette bomb with character i need 3 battalions for max cp's (demons are cp hungry) so i use a skullreaver Dp, in every major tournament you play you have high chances to meet Ik's, after i played for long Ts dp's now i prefer a Korne Dp with reaver.
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Yeah the KDP is totally the meta pick. I run my 2nd TSons DP in a Tzeentch detachment so he loses Brotherhood of Psykers. But even so, against everything non-titanic he's the better pick.
Against Knights I'd always run Skullreaver.
Hopefully some Knights players show up at the next tourney I go to. I haven't played at an event since moving to a new city so I'm still getting a feel for the local meta. The pick-up meta at my local store is like all Chaos players lol. Overall player skill seems pretty high but not everyone plays meta stuff. I'm the still the only Ynnari/CWE player I know.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/28 13:47:48
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I have gone up vs Culexus assassins before, they are not fun to fight. They have special deployment rules which allow them to start close enough to your forces that you will get hit by the -2 to cast. And only hitting them on 6's suck. However the rule says you treat the attacker as if it had a ws/bs of 6+, this can be overcome by reroll to hits and +'s to your to hit.
I dealt with the one i faced by hitting it with tzaangors in cc. I may hit on 6's but your a chr and i reroll failed hits vs chrs. Didnt take long to kill it at that point.
Azuza001 wrote: I have gone up vs Culexus assassins before, they are not fun to fight. They have special deployment rules which allow them to start close enough to your forces that you will get hit by the -2 to cast. And only hitting them on 6's suck. However the rule says you treat the attacker as if it had a ws/bs of 6+, this can be overcome by reroll to hits and +'s to your to hit.
I dealt with the one i faced by hitting it with tzaangors in cc. I may hit on 6's but your a chr and i reroll failed hits vs chrs. Didnt take long to kill it at that point.
Thats a great tactic; I've ran into lists that ran 2 (which they're super cheap so why not...) and they really are annoying as hell to fight.
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slave.entity wrote: I'd love to play against a Culexus list some time. I imagine my list has enough screen to keep it very far away from all of my casters. They always deploy in the backline so it's unlikely that their spells fail to cast due to having High Magister, Ahriman, and +6" cast range.
I'd have pinks clear whatever infantry screen the Culexus is hiding behind while the leviathan gets prescience'd to hit it on 5s and blow it away.
Power armor is not very scary because of bloodletters and pinks both wounding on 3s.
The IG flyer spam list you mentioned does sound scary though.
The Culexus bubble is quite large, and if you are keeping your psychers back to avoid it thats part of why people take them; making you do things you wouldn't normally.
The point being that if you intend to make a competitive list it needs more in its bag of tricks than a few powers, and the ability to cope with niche lists (i.e. IG Flier spam, 3+ Knights, Loota stars) without just crumpling. But as I mentioned, its also your meta, and whether your trying to test for larger events, or just a few bros at a small tourney. North Carolina, oddly enough, has a very competitive 40k scene.
This is also just a single instance of something that really messes with what your list revolves around; we now have the Slaneesh herald that causes perils on any double rolls, Eldrad is essentially Ahriman, and psychic powers can't always be relied upon. I'm glad your list is working for you though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/28 18:37:01
Fellas I have a couple of basic rules questions, let’s use Exalted Flamers as an example.
1 - They have 3 attacks - can they switch between pink and blue flame or are all 3 attacks made with the same profile?
2 - say we shoot with blue fire, which is heavy 3. Does that mean each Exalted Flamer is shooting 9 S9 (10 with a herald) AP4 shots per turn? Or with pink, 3d6 shots at S5/6?
Kind of makes me want to run a herald on a disc with a pack of Exalted Flamers in a Vanguard, and then a Spearhead of a chariot herald with 3 burning chariots...with a Khorne patrol you can fit a herald and 26 bloodletters into a 1k list. Only 5CP to play with and the letters will eat a few of those bombing in but...interdasting
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/29 11:51:38
1- you can decide how divide attacks with weapons
3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed
on its datasheet. If a model has several
weapons, it can shoot all of them at the
same target, or it can shoot each at a
different enemy unit.
2-blue fire is heavy 3 so ony 3 shots pink is d6 i dont know what make you think he can shot 9 or 3d6 shots.
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blackmage wrote: 1- you can decide how divide attacks with weapons
3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed
on its datasheet. If a model has several
weapons, it can shoot all of them at the
same target, or it can shoot each at a
different enemy unit.
2-blue fire is heavy 3 so ony 3 shots pink is d6 i dont know what make you think he can shot 9 or 3d6 shots.
That's my confusion - Exalted Flamers have 3 attacks, so can they make 3 blue fire attacks? Or 1 blue/2 pink?
Each blue fire attack is Heavy 3. 3 attacks with blue fire would then be 9 shots total.
OR is the attack stat only for melee attacks, and they have to choose between either 1 shot of blue or 1 shot of pink (seems like this is the case - need to reread core book...)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/29 13:03:20
slave.entity wrote: I'd love to play against a Culexus list some time. I imagine my list has enough screen to keep it very far away from all of my casters. They always deploy in the backline so it's unlikely that their spells fail to cast due to having High Magister, Ahriman, and +6" cast range.
I'd have pinks clear whatever infantry screen the Culexus is hiding behind while the leviathan gets prescience'd to hit it on 5s and blow it away.
Power armor is not very scary because of bloodletters and pinks both wounding on 3s.
The IG flyer spam list you mentioned does sound scary though.
The Culexus bubble is quite large, and if you are keeping your psychers back to avoid it thats part of why people take them; making you do things you wouldn't normally.
The point being that if you intend to make a competitive list it needs more in its bag of tricks than a few powers, and the ability to cope with niche lists (i.e. IG Flier spam, 3+ Knights, Loota stars) without just crumpling. But as I mentioned, its also your meta, and whether your trying to test for larger events, or just a few bros at a small tourney. North Carolina, oddly enough, has a very competitive 40k scene.
This is also just a single instance of something that really messes with what your list revolves around; we now have the Slaneesh herald that causes perils on any double rolls, Eldrad is essentially Ahriman, and psychic powers can't always be relied upon. I'm glad your list is working for you though.
I guess what I'm trying to say with the Culexus example specifically is that it doesn't make my list do anything it doesn't normally do. The Culexus bubble is 18" and I normally keep psykers outside of 24" of enemy characters to prevent deny the witch anyway. The increased range on all TSons psyker spells really helps with this. If you take a careful look at the list I posted, it's quite clear what the strategy is and what the deployment looks like: 6 psykers in the back stacking buffs on a single leviathan dread, a 30-man miasma'd plaguebearer screen spread out in front to create around 18-24" of space in front of the leviathan, then 30x cultists 3-6" in front of the plaguebearers to create an additional screen, then 6x nurglings in the midfield to create yet more roadblocks for the enemy forces before the 3 big daemon bombs drop on T2. Essentially everything that is present on the table T1 is deployed and buffed completely defensively so that the opponent is forced to waste shots on chaff and on high toughness, -1 to hit buffs. I don't worry about killing any high priority targets on T1 and focus only on staying alive and clearing screen. That means butcher cannons shooting at chaff and popping Warp Surge to discourage shooting at 4++/5+++ -1 to hit plaguebearer. On the following turns the 70 deepstriking obsec daemons drop and sweep away the enemy..
I'm not sure a Culexus list would pose as much of a problem for my list as something like Castellan/Catachan/Bullgryns for example. I've played against Culexus lists before with Eldar and they're not so tough when you have the tools to deal with them. Of the 3 archetypes you've posted, the only one that I'd be concerned with is IG flyer spam, mainly because I don't know exactly what it is. I imagine knight spam or orks will go down easily to the usual butcher cannons/bloodletters/pinks/Skullreaver/smite.
Those are great general competitive tips though. Getting to test my build against niche gatekeeper lists is absolutely the main reason I want to start going to tourneys again.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2018/12/29 14:44:16
I'm trying out a Chaos Undivided list against my friend who's trying out Tau after CA, what are some of the best units to fight Tau with from the codex? I got access to just about every unit, since I am going to be taking at least 400 points of each god.
I understand reaver vs knights is good - are people actually getting the DP into melee against knights on even a 50 50 basis though? It was much easier when it was possible to run the alpha legion prince wtih it due to warptime... Most competitive lists screen with a million IG infantry, maybe custodes bikers and one dominus sitting in the back. I'm high on the skullreaver but have a hard time getting into melee...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/30 01:21:46
Skullreaver and bloodletters should be great for that but we really need to make sure the screen is completely dead by T3 in order to have enough room to charge. That's always the big challenge with any Chaos vs. Imperial soup matchup I think. We can't outshoot them so we have to outfight them in CC somehow.
I've found that Pink horrors are a fantastic way to deal with screens to compliment Khorne. A full 30 blob shooting at an IG gunline will do fantastic, at 3 shots a piece, hitting 50/50 wounding on 3+ with a herald nearby. Give or take 30 wounds against their chaff! And that's just first turn, to take down a 30 blob you'd need to put a ridiculous amount of dakka into them, due to that 4++.
Just watched a battle rep only on youtube. Wow, I finally saw properly supported plague bearers in action and it was scary. This whole rerolls morale and on a 1, gets back d6 plague bearers is really op. And if they get stuck in combat with a unit that just only manages to kill off a few plague bearers every turn. they are almost impossible to remove.
Like, kill 3 models, oh, I rolled a 1 on two dice for morale (with possible rerolls), and now I put d6 plague bearers back... lol And blades of putrification on a mass of 30 plague bearers are sick. Now I know why people go with 90 to 120 plague bearers. Properly supported, that is such a hard resilient army. The guy in the battle rep only brought 50+ plague bearers. If he had brought 90, he would have won that game easily.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/30 05:55:44
