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 p5freak wrote:
Does that FW flyer have the INFANTRY, HELBRUTE or BIKERS keyword ? Please read the rules thoroughly.

Btw, eldar can stack up to -11 to hit, and yes that legal.

How the hell do they do that?

they have not

 JNAProductions wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Does that FW flyer have the INFANTRY, HELBRUTE or BIKERS keyword ? Please read the rules thoroughly.

Btw, eldar can stack up to -11 to hit, and yes that legal.

How the hell do they do that?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/755125.page

Four points of those -11 are from things that have nothing to do with the Eldar.

I want some opinions on Greater Demons.

I have a hodge podge of demons, ie some from all 4 factions. The one thing I'm lacking is a GD.

I really like the Kairos/Lord of Change model from GW. I know the GD's have gotten a pretty good points drop. Is Kairos worth the points?

I do have more Nurgle than anything so was considering a GUO. Games typically run 1500-1750 at my local store and NOBODY has a power list.

What's the best loadout for a GUO? Is Rotigus any good?

 p5freak wrote:
There are models which say you can only have one in your army. Like the blue scribes. Summoned units arent part of a detachment, is a unit which isnt part of a detachment part of my army ? Could i summon additional blue scribes ? Having 3 or 4 of them auto manifesting psychic powers sounds fun, because they can manifest psychic powers which already have been manifested.

For some reason the only FAQ answer of note is in the Chaos Space Marine FAQ and not the Daemon one:

Q: If I have a Daemon model that can only be included once
in my army – for example, the Changeling – and that model is
slain during the game, can I use Daemonic Ritual to attempt to
summon it and add it to my army again?
A: Yes. Note that if you’re playing a matched play game
you’ll need the appropriate reinforcement points to do so.

Reading between the lines, that would say that it needs to die before you can summon it again.

jivardi wrote:
I want some opinions on Greater Demons.

I have a hodge podge of demons, ie some from all 4 factions. The one thing I'm lacking is a GD.

I really like the Kairos/Lord of Change model from GW. I know the GD's have gotten a pretty good points drop. Is Kairos worth the points?

I do have more Nurgle than anything so was considering a GUO. Games typically run 1500-1750 at my local store and NOBODY has a power list.

What's the best loadout for a GUO? Is Rotigus any good?

Kairos/LoC would be great for your meta. They were always a fun pick in casual games and with the points reductions they're even more viable. None of the GDs are obscenely strong but in a 1500-1750 casual meta IMO all of them would be perfect. Strong enough to feel like GDs, but weak enough to keep it a reasonably fair fight.

Thank you! I just love the aesthetic of all of the GD (minus the current KoS but here is hoping for a new one of those by Summer).

jivardi wrote:
I want some opinions on Greater Demons.

This past weekend I ran a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage. For 260 points, this guy was the MVP of my army.

I loaded him up with Armor of Scorn, so he was a 4++ and could deny. When he was focus fired, I would pop Warp Surge on him for a 3++ save.

He was my warlord, so I have him "Glory of Battle", giving him +1 attack when outnumbered. This gave him 8 attacks. In one round, I had him fly into a squad of 30 boys, and he swung 16 times (using the sweeping blow of axe of khorne), hitting 16 times (completely average since 6s hit twice) and killing 14 of them. At the end of the phase, I used Frenetic bloodlust to swing another 16 times, reducing the squad to 3 boys, which then evaporated due to morale.

He did die in nearly every game eventually, but overall he was a great model for only 260 points.

My only experience is Zarakynel.

I don't recommend Her.

 labmouse42 wrote:

I loaded him up with Armor of Scorn, so he was a 4++ and could deny. When he was focus fired, I would pop Warp Surge on him for a 3++ save.

Warp Surge was faq'ed to improve invuln saves up to a maximum of 4++, so no 3++ sadly :(

Such a lame change.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Such a lame change.

Yea, its lame that 30 pinkies cant get a 3+ inv anymore, for 1 CP

They could have worded the fix in a way that still let GD and DP take advantage of it.

In the context of a Bloodthirster getting a 3++. Just heavy handed, as per usual. I agree, a mob of lesser daemons are not a “fair” candidate.

It was extremely good, and so I could see why they did not want the BT getting a 3++. He was able to absorb a lot of firepower and keep going.

Lets look at it in terms of forcing saves. A BT has 16 wounds.
If the BT has a 5++, then when you force 20.8 wounds, it will die.
If the BT has a 4++, then when you force 32 wounds, it will die.
If the BT has a 3++, then when you force 48 wounds, it will die.

Things are more complicated that this. The BT has a normal save of a 3+, so there will be some cases where the BT can use it's regular save over the daemonic one. I found a few cases were the BT was taking a wound from a grot blaster, and the 3+ save was used.

The BT also degrades, which means that keeping those wounds intact is even more important.

 labmouse42 wrote:
It was extremely good, and so I could see why they did not want the BT getting a 3++. He was able to absorb a lot of firepower and keep going.

Lets look at it in terms of forcing saves. A BT has 16 wounds.
If the BT has a 5++, then when you force 20.8 wounds, it will die.
If the BT has a 4++, then when you force 32 wounds, it will die.
If the BT has a 3++, then when you force 48 wounds, it will die.

Things are more complicated that this. The BT has a normal save of a 3+, so there will be some cases where the BT can use it's regular save over the daemonic one. I found a few cases were the BT was taking a wound from a grot blaster, and the 3+ save was used.

The BT also degrades, which means that keeping those wounds intact is even more important.

By far the worst exploiter of warp surge was tzeentch, using impossible robe a LOC or prince could RAW get a 2++ that the player could choose to reroll at the cost of rerolled ones causing instant death

I was doing some musing about playing daemons, and wanted to bounce some thoughts off the dakka krew.

Plaguebearers
For purposes of delivery of exalted flamers, daemon princes, or heralds, these guys seem like great buys. 220 points gets you 30 models that are hard to shift and give excellent board control.
Add spoilpox to the mix, then this horde is shambling up ~11.5 inches a turn!
How could you use 60-90 of these guys? Well, what comes to my mind is 'use them to screen more deadly daemons'. The question is, what kind of daemons? That's what the rest of this post will be about.

BloodMaster
These guys got cheaper. At 56 points, the BloodMaster will charge with 4 swings at STR 7, AP -3, and D3 dmg. For the point cost, he's not bad.
Having a few of these hidden through your plague bearers could be a nasty shock for an unsuspecting opponent. You could also use them to summon other daemons.

Changecaster / Fateskimmer
The changecaster is 65 points for a psyker. 20 more points gives that same psyker a 14" move. Given the synergy with exalted flamers, this seems like a no-brainer upgrade.

The synergy with flamers is also strong here. They can either be summoned or denizens of the warp. 6 flamers is 8pp to summon, or 1 CP to deep strike. They do 6d6 STR 5 (~21 hits) with a herald that are -1 AP. For clearing out grots, that's very solid. Given that you can summon them up to 12" from a herald, and they can shoot another 12", that's a 24" threat range. At 150 points, they are not bad.

Horrors are also another good option for summoning. 20 horrors is also PP8, and only 1 CP to deep strike, which throws out 60 STR 4 (with herald) shots (~30 hits) for 140 points.

Between the two, the flamers are more fragile (only having 12 wounds, and being vulnerable to multi-damage weapons) while the horrors are less mobile. If you are summoning, then you can choose which to use based upon your situation.

Exalted Flamers
At 70 points a buy, these guys seem like the bees knees. Three STR 9 (10 w/herald) BS 3+ shots, -4 ap, D3 wounds. They could also be used to shoot d6 shots, which is useful as they will auto-hit.
Taking 3 of these with a fluxmaster seems like a no-brainer for any daemon army. 295 points for 9 of those anti-armor shots, and a psyker-summoner is a great deal.

Blue Scribes
75 points for a free random power cast each turn is not bad. This is a way to get two casts of flickering fire a round. Given they also give general psychic denial, they seem a cool, if specialized, choice.

Masque of Slaanesh
For 65 points, you get 5 STR 4, AP -2 (-4), D2 attacks. That's a pretty moderate damage output, but the real advantage here is The Eternal Dance, which will let your plaguebearers get +1 to hit an enemy unit.
If you take heralds of slaanesh, these got up to STR 5 attacks.

Heralds of Slaanesh
60 points for a psyker that can throw out 4 STR 5 attacks. Casting symphony of pain, or pavane of slaanesh on a large unit can be extremely rewarding.
For direct hitting power, the khorne heralds hit harder than slaanesh ones,

Be'Lakor
For 240 points you can get a universal DP. Be'Lakor is good, but overall I think you are better off buying a D-Thirster and deep striking it.

Daemon Princes
This is kind of a 'duh' unit. What kind of DP you bring depends on the army you are bringing.

Mixing it Up
The best part about this is how this mixes everything up, letting you take advantage of more relics / psychic disciplines.
* A'Rgath will give your khorne herald four STR 8, -4 AP D3 swings in assault, rerolling wounds against characters.
* Impossible robe gives your herald a 3+ save.
* A poxbringer with corruption is STR 8, AP-3, D3 damage rerolling to-wounds
* A slaanesh DP with soulstealer is constantly regenerating wounds.

operkoi wrote:
By far the worst exploiter of warp surge was tzeentch, using impossible robe a LOC or prince could RAW get a 2++ that the player could choose to reroll at the cost of rerolled ones causing instant death

Not quite true--Warp Surge has always stated that you cannot re-roll saves for the affected unit. So the 2++ LoC couldn't use his Impossible reroll WHILE he was surged.
Still pretty good, IMO, and it was one of my star units. 2++ and -1D warlord trait meant that guy rarely died; meanwhile, my Fire Bomb, Letter Bomb, and Virus Bomb were all running rampant across the field.

labmouse42 wrote:

jivardi wrote:
I want some opinions on Greater Demons.

This past weekend I ran a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage. For 260 points, this guy was the MVP of my army.

I loaded him up with Armor of Scorn, so he was a 4++ and could deny. When he was focus fired, I would pop Warp Surge on him for a 3++ save.

He was my warlord, so I have him "Glory of Battle", giving him +1 attack when outnumbered. This gave him 8 attacks. In one round, I had him fly into a squad of 30 boys, and he swung 16 times (using the sweeping blow of axe of khorne), hitting 16 times (completely average since 6s hit twice) and killing 14 of them. At the end of the phase, I used Frenetic bloodlust to swing another 16 times, reducing the squad to 3 boys, which then evaporated due to morale.

He did die in nearly every game eventually, but overall he was a great model for only 260 points.

Wow, that's impressive. Even with the new rules changes, would it be possible for me to use my Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury to such an effective extent? Right now he's my warlord and has the Oblivious To Pain trait. I originally gave him Armour of Scorn as well but transferred that over to a winged Daemon Prince so that I wasn't relying to much on the BT, as well as to spread out my anti-psyker abilities beyond just my Flesh Hounds.

armor of scorn is pretty better on Bt, Dp cant be targeted easily and when he gets into melee with a skullreaver he wreak havoc, so better armor on BT and skullreaver on Dp

Question regarding summoning? The new FAQ abolished turn 1 reinforcements and thus removed the deployment zone limitation. Does this mean we can summon turn 1 and ignore the deployment zone limitations that previously existed thereby dropping a horror bomb, virus bomb, or letter bomb near midfield turn 1?

operkoi wrote:
Question regarding summoning? The new FAQ abolished turn 1 reinforcements and thus removed the deployment zone limitation. Does this mean we can summon turn 1 and ignore the deployment zone limitations that previously existed thereby dropping a horror bomb, virus bomb, or letter bomb near midfield turn 1?

Which FAQ?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Wow, that's impressive. Even with the new rules changes, would it be possible for me to use my Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury to such an effective extent? Right now he's my warlord and has the Oblivious To Pain trait. I originally gave him Armour of Scorn as well but transferred that over to a winged Daemon Prince so that I wasn't relying to much on the BT, as well as to spread out my anti-psyker abilities beyond just my Flesh Hounds.

I want to be clear. The BT is not an auto-win. It is, however, a very good unit. I found that it was very useful for delivering a good threat on the board. The ork player, after the BT wiped his squad of boys, did not want to teleport any boys near it. That let me control that side of the board.
In another game, it ripped a knight open by itself.

These are just my experiences. Yours might be completely different.

My BT just dies in round 1 or 2.

He never gets to be effect at full strength.... so I caution bringing that model back. At current rules, I still think he's overpriced. Bel'akor is a much better unit has he can "hide" because of character rules.

spaceclown wrote:

operkoi wrote:
Question regarding summoning? The new FAQ abolished turn 1 reinforcements and thus removed the deployment zone limitation. Does this mean we can summon turn 1 and ignore the deployment zone limitations that previously existed thereby dropping a horror bomb, virus bomb, or letter bomb near midfield turn 1?

Which FAQ?

Honestly not sure if the term is FAQ or chapter approved but the recent big overhaul

FAQ /CA 1 said deepstrike/reinforcement turn 1 are limited to deployment zone. FAQ/CA 2 says that the deployment rule is no longer applicable and instead units set aside as reinforcements must come in turn 2 or later. Seeing as summoned daemons are explicitly not set aside beforehand does this let them bypass the turn 1 block in the newer material.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Wow, that's impressive. Even with the new rules changes, would it be possible for me to use my Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury to such an effective extent? Right now he's my warlord and has the Oblivious To Pain trait. I originally gave him Armour of Scorn as well but transferred that over to a winged Daemon Prince so that I wasn't relying to much on the BT, as well as to spread out my anti-psyker abilities beyond just my Flesh Hounds.

I want to be clear. The BT is not an auto-win. It is, however, a very good unit. I found that it was very useful for delivering a good threat on the board. The ork player, after the BT wiped his squad of boys, did not want to teleport any boys near it. That let me control that side of the board.
In another game, it ripped a knight open by itself.

These are just my experiences. Yours might be completely different.

The last few times I've used mine I deep struck him in to keep him from being shot to pieces turn 1. Every time he failed his charge (with a reroll) and then proceeded to get shot off the board. He looks great in my display cabinet though.

The big FAQ 2 changed the tactical reserves rule.

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.

A summoned unit is not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game. Its a new unit created when summoning, thus its not affected by the tactical reserves rule.

 p5freak wrote:
The big FAQ 2 changed the tactical reserves rule.

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.

A summoned unit is not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game. Its a new unit created when summoning, thus its not affected by the tactical reserves rule.

Thanks. for the clarification. I was confused with the blurb in the codex that states Summoned units arriving are treated as reinforcements. I was thinking that under that rule you cannot summon until turn 2 at the earliest RAW

Yes, they are treated as reinforcements, but they arent deployed during deployment.