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The third detachment is for your damage dealers. Your massed shooting or massed CC attacks. The things you need to clear screens and delete large targets. I run bloodletters, pinks, and a Thousand Sons butcher leviathan. But really, you can run whatever you want. You could run a skullreaver prince or a gatling knight or triple Deredeos. The core of the Ahriman & friends list (plaguebearers/Tsons princes) really doesn't have a lot of damage potential. Plaguebearers are too slow and daemon princes have no way to get past large screens on their own. So the rest of your list should be focused on ways to actually destroy the enemy army.

The Ahriman & Co list works because 1) buffed plaguebearers are the most resilient troops choice in the game and can be buffed for decent mobility and damage potential and 2) Ahriman is the best psyker in the game (possibly next to Eldrad). You use the plaguebearers to capture objectives and protect your killy units and you use Ahriman and his goon squad to own the psychic phase and remove any major threats with death hex and other spells. That's basically it in a nutshell.

40k is fairly resistant to being 'solved' in the way TCGs are due to the lack of standardization in rulesets and terrain setups in competitive play. Furthermore, GW's frequently ambiguous wording in their own rules means often times the interpretation of a rule at an event is basically a coin flip decided by your TO. Lastly, 40k is such a slow, rock-paper-scissors-y game that meta shifts take a very long time to resolve, and it's totally possible to succeed with anti-meta lists if you correctly anticipate how your opponents build for an event.

drakerocket wrote:
Those are all nice buffs but not what the KoS needed. The shield needed to give +1 invulnerability, plain and simple. The with warp surge it could actually live. Or mesmerizing aura needed to work on shooting. The issue with the KoS is not killing or speed, it is how does it live if your opponent goes first?

At 165 it could kind of overcome that by being semi disposable. But even then they were never used competitively. Tacking on 75-85 points with the only survivability boost being 4 wounds just doesn't work.

Slanaash Greater possessed from CSM are a good consideration if you want a relatively cheap fighty character. They are stat 5 across the board for the most part and cost just 70 points. They also synergise well with a slanaash daemon army because they are daemon keyword so they benefit from all of the demon auras. You can take 2 in just one elite slot. They are like mini daemon princes for half the price or less.

 FancyPigeon wrote:
I've got some questions about the daemon/thousand sons lists that you see so often in top tournament lists. You probably know the ones. Plaguebearers, Pipers, Scriveners in one detachment and Ahriman and daemon princes in the second. I like these lists, and I've started building towards it as my first army. But I've reached the point where I have to start considering what to build past those typical parts.

My questions are: what is the role of these two detachments, why are they so common (what do they do exceptionally well?) and what is the goal of the third detachment? Because I feel like you see just about anything in there. Bloodletters? Pinks? Chariots? Plagueburst Crawlers? Terminators? If there's a Chaos unit that exists I swear I've seen them in there.

So what's the deal here? Is it like a flex slot? Do you adapt whats in that slot according to your meta?

I apologize if this question has been answered before but I'm having some trouble finding specific list advice or discussion about these lists, despite their apparent popularity, so I figured this was as decent a place as any to start. I also apologize if people are offended by my netdecking (netlisting?) but I'm pretty new to all this and wanted somewhere to start. I'm coming to this hobby from MTG where competitive decks are more-or-less solved. I'm open to experimentation and personalization but before I can do that I feel like I need to understand the list better.

Anyone offended by netdecking in 2019 is being ignorant of the fact that we live in a world of knowledge where we can get answers at our finger tips. I also come from MTG, and while warhammer is more varied in the type of advice you get (as it is typically less competitively available) you can find sources of good info from facebook groups, battle reports or watching streams. I’m not talking some goober in their basement jamming terrible lists, if you wanna play top tier lists look at top tier players (Josh Death, Jim Vesal, Don Hooson are some I look towards). Jim plays a very typical list of what you have described. I’ve watched him play it a few times as well as played it a bit myself but I am nowhere near his level. I can give some insight based on what i know.

The daemons battalion is based on board control and screening mostly. Plaguebearers are ridiculously tanky, and daemons most powerful tools are characters. Daemon princes are our best unit, so plagues screening them helps us get thme into their effective range. Typically, you will see plagues spread out in a line as far as possible within coherency, to get as much of the board clogged up as possible. Typically you also spam miasma on them and warpsurge to keep them alive as long as possible.

The 1K sons supreme command functions very well with the battalion since all thr units are characters. Ahriman is one of the most powerful psykers in the game and 1K sons princes are the most powerful princes in the game. This setup provides a huge psychic phase of spammable smites and nukes while also having a great deny the witch game.

The last detachment is flex, as you have said, and varies a lot. Tzaangors, bloodletters, PBCs, blightlords, anything. But mostly it relies on getting a heavy hitting unit. The current meta has a ton of knights, so you want something that can kill a knight. This is why you usually see khorne daemon princes with skullreaver or bloodletters. You typically see pinks to either clear chaff for more cc units or do targetted shooting bombs. Im less experienced with tzaangors and blightlords, but my understanding is that blightlords can really mess up a parking lot. Our strength in chaos is strong deepstrike units, so that is typically used, but forgeworld dreadnaught spearheads work too as a heavy hitting option.

Anyway , yeah thats about it. Check out lists, watch streams and play some games. Hope this helps a bit

With the new rules for the Keeper of Secrets out I've given my "assorted monsters" list some tweaking. I realize that I'm never going to compete with meta builds with the list, and that I'd probably be better off grabbing some Thousand Sons for a Tzaangor bomb rather than going with vanilla CSM, but them's the breaks.

Daemons of Khorne batallion
Bloodthirster, Armour of Scorn - 260 <---Warlord, 6+ FNP trait
Daemon Prince - 180
Bloodletters, banner, musician - 95
Bloodletters, banner, musician - 95
Bloodletters, banner, musician - 95

Daemons of Slaanesh batallion
Keeper of Secrets, Sinistrous Hand - 240
Herald on Steed - 82
Daemonettes, banner, musician - 85
Daemonettes, banner, musician - 85
Daemonettes, banner, musician - 85
Seekers, musician - 85

Red Corsairs Batallion - Soulforged Pack
Lord Discordant, Slaanesh, Autocannon, Master of the Soulforges - 160
Daemon Prince(ss) of Slaanesh - 180
Slaanesh CSM, Rotorcannon, combi-bolter - 87
Slaanesh CSM, Rotorcannon, combi-bolter - 87
Slaanesh CSM, Rotorcannon, combi-bolter - 87

1986 points.

I've got 21 command points base, the Bloodletters eat six of them, the Soulforged Pack and trait for the LD eats another two, bringing me down to 13, which is plenty. I've considered using the Soulstealer for the Keeper of Secrets to regen wounds from everything I kill and from the Sinistrous Hand, but it'd also drop it down to T7 when it's not near the Herald.

The idea is to Warptime the Lord Discordant up the field on turn 1 while running the Seekers, the Herald on Steed and the Keeper of Secrets as far upfield as they can get. Between the stupid 35" average move of the Lord Discordant (14" move, 3.5" average advance, times two) and the decent speed of the Seekers, Herald and Keeper of Secrets I should be able to start going after screens in melee turn 1, further aided by the rotorcannons from my camping CSM. This means the opponent is unlikely to have the time to shoot the Bloodthirster, as there's both a Lord Discordant and a Keeper of Secrets in their deployment zone really early.

I've been considering dropping the banners on the Daemonettes, as I'm not sure they'll do much. For the saved points I could squeeze a Fiend in, which would give me another potential T1 charger and an annoying unit messing with psykers and keeping things locked in combat. Thoughts?

I wouldn't bother with a banner in a unit of ten, personally.

If I dropped the banners and the weapons on one CSM squad I could swap the Khorne Prince for a second Bloodthirster for more target saturation.

Would it be worth running the KoS as Warlord instead and going for the +3" move trait? That'd make the first-turn charge potential that much more nasty.

I honestly don’t see the point of banners in MSU squads. They will die before getting the chance to take the morale test usually. Or you’ll replenish some but it’s still essentially a distraction.

I am not sure how your bloodletters take up 6 CP unless you’re upgrading their banners as well?

I think the extra BT sounds better than having the banners but losing a DP might not be the best trade off... but having multiple big ass Daemons may mitigate that. They can only shoot at so much right? Lol

As for the KOS being the warlord, that could be OK.. I’d recommend just spending the CP to give the KOS the soul stealer to use screens as a battery since shell be up close quickly. 1 wound per model killed will be significant considering people use screens to block the big baddies.

Do you really need the +3 on a 14"M model?

I've dropped Celerity as a WT for all my lists led by a KoS, 'cause She can keep up with Seekers and Fiends without it now.

The FAQ has dropped! Knights are up 100+ points and they have had their rotate ion shields strategem nerfed to our Warp Surge level, along with increasing its cost in CP into a 1/3 based on the knight being used. I assume the Castellan costs more CP to rotate now.

Big fix for us = flying over models again. DPs, BTs and LOC are back in business with that again.

It was 1 CP questoris, 3 CP others.

Now it’s 3 CP Dominous, 1 CP others.

Wonder how the DP nerf (all 4 count as the same type of unit) is going to affect lists.

Bloodcrushers have also gained a wound. Up to 4.

operkoi wrote:
Wonder how the DP nerf (all 4 count as the same type of unit) is going to affect lists.

People rarely took more than 2 DPs in competitive lists.

 dan2026 wrote:
Bloodcrushers have also gained a wound. Up to 4.

3 extra wounds in a min unit of Bloodcrushers isn't going to make a difference sadly.

 dan2026 wrote:
Bloodcrushers have also gained a wound. Up to 4.

Not much but anything helps. If they even had a 10" move it would significantly help but alas.

Bloodcrushers have been at 4 wounds for a while anyway. The problem is bloodletters exist.

ArmchairArbiter wrote:
I honestly don’t see the point of banners in MSU squads. They will die before getting the chance to take the morale test usually. Or you’ll replenish some but it’s still essentially a distraction.

I am not sure how your bloodletters take up 6 CP unless you’re upgrading their banners as well?

I think the extra BT sounds better than having the banners but losing a DP might not be the best trade off... but having multiple big ass Daemons may mitigate that. They can only shoot at so much right? Lol

As for the KOS being the warlord, that could be OK.. I’d recommend just spending the CP to give the KOS the soul stealer to use screens as a battery since shell be up close quickly. 1 wound per model killed will be significant considering people use screens to block the big baddies.

Bloodletters are Deep Striking in and charging, so Banner of Blood is more or less mandatory.

17" move instead of 14" move is the difference between needing a 3.5" charge and a 6.5" charge to get to the 24" mark on turn 1, alternatively being able to threaten screens deployed further back than the edge of the deployment zone.

The average 2d6 roll is 7, isn't it? I'm presuming you can afford one CP for a re-roll if necessary.

Celerity stops being any use after T1, that's my biggest problem with it.

 slave.entity wrote:
Bloodcrushers have been at 4 wounds for a while anyway. The problem is bloodletters exist.

you're right, Bloodcrushers pale in comparison to BLoodletters, its made me sad since I have adored my bloodcrushers since they were first released and I have ran them since!

I love them in my semi casual lists, Normally focussing around a Herald on Jugg (customised up with flesh hound and such since he is leading my Bloodhunt!) with a couple of packs of flesh hounds, bloodcrushers and a rhino with either Khorne Berzerkers or Chosen.


Gets job done, although it works best mixed with Tzeentch

 Excommunicatus wrote:
The average 2d6 roll is 7, isn't it? I'm presuming you can afford one CP for a re-roll if necessary.

You'll likely have rerolls from a Khorne Character, but even with rerolls and a +1" to charge range from the hornblower you've got a sub-70% chance of making the charge, whereas with the banner you get something absurd like a 97% chance of success IIRC. Nothing sucks more than having your T3 5++ infantry fail their charge and be stuck in the open.

So without knowing the points for the epitome, and assuming it is 200 due to the attributed PL, I believe I have come up with my 2k point list.


Batallion

HQ
1x Syllesske
1x Contorted Epitome

Troops
Daemonettes x24
Daemonettes x24
Daemonettes x24

Elites:

3x Fiends (squad or solo)

Heavy Support:

3x Exalted Seeker Chariots

Supreme Command Detachment -

2x KOS

This is where I am getting stuck.. my concept = the Daemonettes and Exalted Chariots can clean up chaff and normal units.

Syllesske follows the enormous blob of Daemonettes, the mirror follows the chariots and fiends. From the datasheet it is apparent (to me at least) that syllesske fits perfectly with Daemonettes, having a similar speed, two buffs, and letting them reroll ANY morale tests to try to get reality to blink.

Mirror matches the speed of the chariots.

If I gave all the KOS the hand/dagger/whip I can spring for 3 KOS (list only has 2 atm) and then I feel like I have some really strong target saturation...

Or I could give 2 shields and put another cheaper HQ in like the Masque. Or say F it and have another mirror following the chariots for psychic doom everywhere.

This is mainly just me playing around points to see what we can include, not trying to make the most competitive list I can but I think this could be OK... hrm. I am not sure Seekers are worth it but with the new KOS speed they might be, the KOS and a wall of Seekers rushing forward seems decent.

The way I see it, you either go all in on target saturation if you're bringing any Greater Daemon or you don't bother. One is just going to get pasted, two are likewise unlikely to achieve much. Three starts getting somewhere and at four at least some of them are going to get where they're going.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The way I see it, you either go all in on target saturation if you're bringing any Greater Daemon or you don't bother. One is just going to get pasted, two are likewise unlikely to achieve much. Three starts getting somewhere and at four at least some of them are going to get where they're going.

I agree, though it's partially why I brought the Exalted Seeker Chariots. People see those and view them as tanks, particularly with how fast they move and they tend to want to shoot at them with the anti-tank stuff that could instead be focused on the Greater Daemon. That has been my experience at least... but I also love the idea of 3 KOS. Maybe I could drop the Fiends and make some room... hrm. Wish we knew the points for the mirror, if it's something weird like 205 or 190 it messes with the math.

So I know mono-Slaanesh isn't very competetive looking, but how are the chariots doing in the game? They seem cheaper than most vehicle options and look to be a reasonable way to get that 15CP starting bonus, but do they actually play okay?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I know mono-Slaanesh isn't very competetive looking, but how are the chariots doing in the game? They seem cheaper than most vehicle options and look to be a reasonable way to get that 15CP starting bonus, but do they actually play okay?

Given the Slaaneshi abundance of HQ’s, if you can afford a Bridage and have the Battalion slots, it can be better to take loads of detachments. You get one more CP that way

I play in a strictly non-competitive meta but I have tremendous fun smashing Chariots into my enemies lines, driving them before me and hearing the lamentations of their women.

I run six of them, natch. Three Hellflayers, two Seeker Chariots, Herald on Seeker Chariot.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I know mono-Slaanesh isn't very competetive looking, but how are the chariots doing in the game? They seem cheaper than most vehicle options and look to be a reasonable way to get that 15CP starting bonus, but do they actually play okay?

Given the Slaaneshi abundance of HQ’s, if you can afford a Bridage and have the Battalion slots, it can be better to take loads of detachments. You get one more CP that way

A Battalion only gives us 8 CP, +2CP for two additional FOCs, while a Brigade gives us 12CP +3 for being Battleforged. 15>10 so I'm lost on how we get "more" with the extra detachments?


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 Excommunicatus wrote:
I play in a strictly non-competitive meta but I have tremendous fun smashing Chariots into my enemies lines, driving them before me and hearing the lamentations of their women.

I run six of them, natch. Three Hellflayers, two Seeker Chariots, Herald on Seeker Chariot.

I'm looking to be in combat with just about everything by turn 2 at the latest (turn 1 if possible), so that seems good to me! We're safer in melee than we are outside of it due to shooting being our big weakpoint. That said, I'm not building an ITC style army so semi-competitive is about as far as I'm going.

My usual list, before the KoS pts increases, was

KoS
6 Heralds
6 Chariots
6 Fiends
60 Daemonettes
18 Seekers

I don't think it's even semi-competitive in a proper tourney environment, but it is fun.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
My usual list, before the KoS pts increases, was

KoS
6 Heralds
6 Chariots
6 Fiends
60 Daemonettes
18 Seekers

I don't think it's even semi-competitive in a proper tourney environment, but it is fun.

It sounds interesting! I'm looking at the KoS, the purest couple of 40k, and probably the new harp (though the mirror looks good. It's hard to choose just one). The rest of the list I was considering looks largely the same.

Am I missing something, or did GW not update the Herald of Slaanesh on mount to get reroll charges instead of charge after advancing?

Mounted Slaanesh Heralds are Index only, so no updates.

They don't have the D2 Ravaging Claws, either. They have Piercing Claws, like Daemonettes.