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i just can say that PB spam now with new marines have no sense to be played, with all those re roll and volume of lighr fire its an uphill battle, with slaanesh you at least can try to engage early and deliver lot of damage, then epitome helps a lot avoid gunlines can disengage and nuke your units. Perhaps in my opinion a more balanced build can be add a nurgle battalion with 3x3 nurglins and 2 Poxbringers they are quite durable and cheap and let demonettes free to engage anything and dont care about obj control.

 blackmage wrote:
i just can say that PB spam now with new marines have no sense to be played, with all those re roll and volume of lighr fire its an uphill battle, with slaanesh you at least can try to engage early and deliver lot of damage, then epitome helps a lot avoid gunlines can disengage and nuke your units. Perhaps in my opinion a more balanced build can be add a nurgle battalion with 3x3 nurglins and 2 Poxbringers they are quite durable and cheap and let demonettes free to engage anything and dont care about obj control.

How are you running the Keepers? is the enrapturess for summoning them?

no keepers are on the table, they act like a distraction carnifex, sometimes they wreak havoc sometimes not and let the rest get in melee, enrapturess is there for some extra psychic troubles she can shoot a bit and is a cheap HQ

So it was requested I provide a more detailed breakdown of the ITC Tournament I was in over the past weekend - so here we go. I'll add full list again in spoilers then the breakdown and analysis of the games.

Update: It is hilarious to say but I am now the #1 Slaanesh Daemons player in the world. lol not saying much really but still - thought it was funny enough to share.

List:



Army Theory: My overall army theory was to have a lot of board control/presence and provide a lot of threats - and double down on each of those threats. Maximum speed is something I knew I needed so I focused on the initial wave of my army having a minimum of 14" movement.

Units:

Syll'Esske: Great unit. DP+Herald buff in one - babysits daemonettes and uses them as a shield until it's lumberjack (choppy choppy) time. Performed great- killed a Canis Rex in combat.

Enrapturess: Originally an HQ unit taken for cost restriction - couldn't take the mask. Performed WAY better than expected - happy to include her again.

Daemonettes: Second waves bread and butter. Great unit - surprisingly choppy and survived a shockingly long time in my games. Basically come in after first wave distracts and swamp opponent.

Seekers: First wave distraction unit. Died a little too easily but tended to do their job - they had to be dealt with. Gave time to Daemonettes and chariots to roll up.

Exalted Chariots: My objective holders + distraction units. Performed great.

Keeper w/whip: The Keeper with whip was -awesome-. I gave her the Soulstealer relic which kept her alive a couple times. Fast and super punchy - nothing bad to say.

Shalaxi: Just an even better Keeper - same as above minus soulstealer.

Contorted Epitome: My MVP. Great unit.. absolutely love it. Was also my Warlord and gave it Celerity of Slaanesh.

What people focused on: It ended up being a mixed bag. I think I benefited from people being unfamiliar with the army other than the "fights first" rule - which everyone seems to think is gimicky/trash but it actually came in handy a number of times during the games.

I explained the army was fast but everyone I faced was surprised by how fast. I always had everything on the board for target saturation and they seemed to go after my Seekers first. I believe they were afraid of my Seekers wrapping their units + an easier kill for the Kill 1 point. They heard toughness 3 and thought easy kill... but it's 20 wounds of 5+ invuln, and I tend to be lucky with saving throws.

Thoughts on Games.

Game 1: My first game was against an Aeldari/Harlequin soup - Just pure jetbike list. He was a very good player who ended up on the finalists table. Had some obnoxious strategems that allowed full reroll hits/wounds on me but I still held my own. Was getting a handle on how ITC works still... I was actually going to table him but I lost in points. We didn't get to finish the game - think I played a little too slow. Made mistakes from just not knowing the army I was fighting - some farseer exploded and killed Syll'Esske and something else.

Game 2: Another Aeldari but Ynnari/Drukhari instead of Harlequin - he had the 3 flyer spam with the swirly ynnari lady. I think his gameplan was to distract with flyers but I just ran past them and engaged him immediately. This is where the mirror shined. It stuck multiple units in combat so they couldn't get away when tagged by my Seekers and Keepers and I just tore through him in a couple turns. Shalaxi personally stabbed the Ynnari special character in the face and obliterated her. Think she did like 24 wounds worth of straight 6 damage to her. I basically picked him apart due to just running past the flyers and him having to turn them around. He probably should have kept them in front of his army.

Game 3: This is where I made two terrible mistakes. One is my fault, the second is not knowing ITC rules. I was defender, we were doing the 9" circle in middle deployment. I had my Keeper w/whip and Shalaxi hugging the wall of the L on my side of the board. He had a Canis Rex come in and apparently you can charge a unit through the impassible wall if they are within 1" of the wall. The wall counts as if they're you - so the enemy just needs to get within 1" of the wall. He annihilated my Shalaxi and then death gripped my Keeper down to like, 6 wounds. The worst part was once it was my turn I realized... THE FORBIDDEN GEM! I forgot to use it and the Mirror was RIGHT THERE. Biggest facepalm moment of the tournament for me - I could have annihilated Rex in that turn and it would have been a completely different game. It really threw me off and I just proceeded to get bushwhacked lol.

Game 4: Not much to note here. I ended up abusing the rule I learned last game with the wall to kill the big flamer yvara thing. Ran up, encircled, stabby stabby. Only got 2 rounds in due to Tau player being slow but it was fine - I was there for fun and we had a great time playing each other.

Game 5: This was the best, most exciting game of the tournament for me. White Scars seriously have some BRUTAL and awesome tricks! It was a very tactical, exciting game. It really came down to him being surprised by my speed - as he was trying to rope me into a trap where I need to come up to fight but he'd charge me first. I got a lucky 6 on an advance roll on his left flank and ended up rolling him up from both sides. He tried to reinforce on the left but then I came in on the right.

How would I change my list?

Honestly - I don't know that I would. The only thing I can think of is removing the Seekers and putting in 3 squads of 3 Fiends... but I think they might die too easily compared to the blob of seekers. But they'd be easier to hide and once they got in on someone they're completely stuck. I didn't run into any moment where I was like "Well - should have brought this unit instead".

i could just play 1 larger blob of seekers 14-15 models and 3 fiends. The list is ok i wont touch anything
Anyway for me better 3+3+3 fiends than 15 seekers at least in my meta, deny fall back is a game changer.

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:
So it was requested I provide a more detailed breakdown of the ITC Tournament I was in over the past weekend - so here we go. I'll add full list again in spoilers then the breakdown and analysis of the games.

Update: It is hilarious to say but I am now the #1 Slaanesh Daemons player in the world. lol not saying much really but still - thought it was funny enough to share.

List:

Spoiler:

Mono-Daemons of Slaanesh

Batallion:

Syll'Esske

Enrapturess

3x 25 Daemonettes

2x 10 Seekers

3x Exalted Chariots

Supreme Command:

Shalaxi

Keeper w/ Whip

Contorted Epitome

Spoiler:

Army Theory: My overall army theory was to have a lot of board control/presence and provide a lot of threats - and double down on each of those threats. Maximum speed is something I knew I needed so I focused on the initial wave of my army having a minimum of 14" movement.

Units:

Syll'Esske: Great unit. DP+Herald buff in one - babysits daemonettes and uses them as a shield until it's lumberjack (choppy choppy) time. Performed great- killed a Canis Rex in combat.

Enrapturess: Originally an HQ unit taken for cost restriction - couldn't take the mask. Performed WAY better than expected - happy to include her again.

Daemonettes: Second waves bread and butter. Great unit - surprisingly choppy and survived a shockingly long time in my games. Basically come in after first wave distracts and swamp opponent.

Seekers: First wave distraction unit. Died a little too easily but tended to do their job - they had to be dealt with. Gave time to Daemonettes and chariots to roll up.

Exalted Chariots: My objective holders + distraction units. Performed great.

Keeper w/whip: The Keeper with whip was -awesome-. I gave her the Soulstealer relic which kept her alive a couple times. Fast and super punchy - nothing bad to say.

Shalaxi: Just an even better Keeper - same as above minus soulstealer.

Contorted Epitome: My MVP. Great unit.. absolutely love it. Was also my Warlord and gave it Celerity of Slaanesh.

What people focused on: It ended up being a mixed bag. I think I benefited from people being unfamiliar with the army other than the "fights first" rule - which everyone seems to think is gimicky/trash but it actually came in handy a number of times during the games.

I explained the army was fast but everyone I faced was surprised by how fast. I always had everything on the board for target saturation and they seemed to go after my Seekers first. I believe they were afraid of my Seekers wrapping their units + an easier kill for the Kill 1 point. They heard toughness 3 and thought easy kill... but it's 20 wounds of 5+ invuln, and I tend to be lucky with saving throws.

Thoughts on Games.

Game 1: My first game was against an Aeldari/Harlequin soup - Just pure jetbike list. He was a very good player who ended up on the finalists table. Had some obnoxious strategems that allowed full reroll hits/wounds on me but I still held my own. Was getting a handle on how ITC works still... I was actually going to table him but I lost in points. We didn't get to finish the game - think I played a little too slow. Made mistakes from just not knowing the army I was fighting - some farseer exploded and killed Syll'Esske and something else.

Game 2: Another Aeldari but Ynnari/Drukhari instead of Harlequin - he had the 3 flyer spam with the swirly ynnari lady. I think his gameplan was to distract with flyers but I just ran past them and engaged him immediately. This is where the mirror shined. It stuck multiple units in combat so they couldn't get away when tagged by my Seekers and Keepers and I just tore through him in a couple turns. Shalaxi personally stabbed the Ynnari special character in the face and obliterated her. Think she did like 24 wounds worth of straight 6 damage to her. I basically picked him apart due to just running past the flyers and him having to turn them around. He probably should have kept them in front of his army.

Game 3: This is where I made two terrible mistakes. One is my fault, the second is not knowing ITC rules. I was defender, we were doing the 9" circle in middle deployment. I had my Keeper w/whip and Shalaxi hugging the wall of the L on my side of the board. He had a Canis Rex come in and apparently you can charge a unit through the impassible wall if they are within 1" of the wall. The wall counts as if they're you - so the enemy just needs to get within 1" of the wall. He annihilated my Shalaxi and then death gripped my Keeper down to like, 6 wounds. The worst part was once it was my turn I realized... THE FORBIDDEN GEM! I forgot to use it and the Mirror was RIGHT THERE. Biggest facepalm moment of the tournament for me - I could have annihilated Rex in that turn and it would have been a completely different game. It really threw me off and I just proceeded to get bushwhacked lol.

Game 4: Not much to note here. I ended up abusing the rule I learned last game with the wall to kill the big flamer yvara thing. Ran up, encircled, stabby stabby. Only got 2 rounds in due to Tau player being slow but it was fine - I was there for fun and we had a great time playing each other.

Game 5: This was the best, most exciting game of the tournament for me. White Scars seriously have some BRUTAL and awesome tricks! It was a very tactical, exciting game. It really came down to him being surprised by my speed - as he was trying to rope me into a trap where I need to come up to fight but he'd charge me first. I got a lucky 6 on an advance roll on his left flank and ended up rolling him up from both sides. He tried to reinforce on the left but then I came in on the right.

How would I change my list?

Honestly - I don't know that I would. The only thing I can think of is removing the Seekers and putting in 3 squads of 3 Fiends... but I think they might die too easily compared to the blob of seekers. But they'd be easier to hide and once they got in on someone they're completely stuck. I didn't run into any moment where I was like "Well - should have brought this unit instead".

Nice!

Hi! New to Daemons. And when I say new I mean I dont have any models yet but i've pored over battlescribe for hours and what I was thinking is very much along the lines of what you have here. Quick question though if you had to convert this list to 1500pts, what would you take out?

I'm coming from Admech so this is a complete opposite mindset for me, which is kind of the idea, change of pace keep things fresh. So there are a lot of things I wont even have considered I suspect!

Thanks in advance.

I suggest you wait until engine war comes out, with new rules for daemons, before you buy anything. Should be released next month.

Is there any way to upgrade a soul grinder's ballistic skill and weapon skill? I know that there are buffs for CSM daemon engines, but I've been looking through the daemon codex and haven't found any. Maybe I missed something.

 p5freak wrote:
I suggest you wait until engine war comes out, with new rules for daemons, before you buy anything. Should be released next month.

Yeah waiting on the same thing for my Admech force If it turns out I can run a mostly melee force with all the new Admech models they're adding I may not even start, but I do love the Slaanesh aesthetic and they'd be so much easier to paint than all the control panels, can cloaks and mechanised parts lol

I was just interested in what would be left out of that list to make it still fun and viable at 1500pts regardless of what tastiness is added in engine war A melee-centric force,as well as psychic powers, is a new thing for me. Even though Admech has 1 of the most ridiculous cheap good melee units it's not really the same dynamic as I think daemons would offer.

Octovol wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I suggest you wait until engine war comes out, with new rules for daemons, before you buy anything. Should be released next month.

Yeah waiting on the same thing for my Admech force If it turns out I can run a mostly melee force with all the new Admech models they're adding I may not even start, but I do love the Slaanesh aesthetic and they'd be so much easier to paint than all the control panels, can cloaks and mechanised parts lol

I was just interested in what would be left out of that list to make it still fun and viable at 1500pts regardless of what tastiness is added in engine war A melee-centric force,as well as psychic powers, is a new thing for me. Even though Admech has 1 of the most ridiculous cheap good melee units it's not really the same dynamic as I think daemons would offer.

more or less a thing like this

Octovol wrote:

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:
So it was requested I provide a more detailed breakdown of the ITC Tournament I was in over the past weekend - so here we go. I'll add full list again in spoilers then the breakdown and analysis of the games.

Update: It is hilarious to say but I am now the #1 Slaanesh Daemons player in the world. lol not saying much really but still - thought it was funny enough to share.

List:

Spoiler:

Mono-Daemons of Slaanesh

Batallion:

Syll'Esske

Enrapturess

3x 25 Daemonettes

2x 10 Seekers

3x Exalted Chariots

Supreme Command:

Shalaxi

Keeper w/ Whip

Contorted Epitome

Spoiler:

Army Theory: My overall army theory was to have a lot of board control/presence and provide a lot of threats - and double down on each of those threats. Maximum speed is something I knew I needed so I focused on the initial wave of my army having a minimum of 14" movement.

Units:

Syll'Esske: Great unit. DP+Herald buff in one - babysits daemonettes and uses them as a shield until it's lumberjack (choppy choppy) time. Performed great- killed a Canis Rex in combat.

Enrapturess: Originally an HQ unit taken for cost restriction - couldn't take the mask. Performed WAY better than expected - happy to include her again.

Daemonettes: Second waves bread and butter. Great unit - surprisingly choppy and survived a shockingly long time in my games. Basically come in after first wave distracts and swamp opponent.

Seekers: First wave distraction unit. Died a little too easily but tended to do their job - they had to be dealt with. Gave time to Daemonettes and chariots to roll up.

Exalted Chariots: My objective holders + distraction units. Performed great.

Keeper w/whip: The Keeper with whip was -awesome-. I gave her the Soulstealer relic which kept her alive a couple times. Fast and super punchy - nothing bad to say.

Shalaxi: Just an even better Keeper - same as above minus soulstealer.

Contorted Epitome: My MVP. Great unit.. absolutely love it. Was also my Warlord and gave it Celerity of Slaanesh.

What people focused on: It ended up being a mixed bag. I think I benefited from people being unfamiliar with the army other than the "fights first" rule - which everyone seems to think is gimicky/trash but it actually came in handy a number of times during the games.

I explained the army was fast but everyone I faced was surprised by how fast. I always had everything on the board for target saturation and they seemed to go after my Seekers first. I believe they were afraid of my Seekers wrapping their units + an easier kill for the Kill 1 point. They heard toughness 3 and thought easy kill... but it's 20 wounds of 5+ invuln, and I tend to be lucky with saving throws.

Thoughts on Games.

Game 1: My first game was against an Aeldari/Harlequin soup - Just pure jetbike list. He was a very good player who ended up on the finalists table. Had some obnoxious strategems that allowed full reroll hits/wounds on me but I still held my own. Was getting a handle on how ITC works still... I was actually going to table him but I lost in points. We didn't get to finish the game - think I played a little too slow. Made mistakes from just not knowing the army I was fighting - some farseer exploded and killed Syll'Esske and something else.

Game 2: Another Aeldari but Ynnari/Drukhari instead of Harlequin - he had the 3 flyer spam with the swirly ynnari lady. I think his gameplan was to distract with flyers but I just ran past them and engaged him immediately. This is where the mirror shined. It stuck multiple units in combat so they couldn't get away when tagged by my Seekers and Keepers and I just tore through him in a couple turns. Shalaxi personally stabbed the Ynnari special character in the face and obliterated her. Think she did like 24 wounds worth of straight 6 damage to her. I basically picked him apart due to just running past the flyers and him having to turn them around. He probably should have kept them in front of his army.

Game 3: This is where I made two terrible mistakes. One is my fault, the second is not knowing ITC rules. I was defender, we were doing the 9" circle in middle deployment. I had my Keeper w/whip and Shalaxi hugging the wall of the L on my side of the board. He had a Canis Rex come in and apparently you can charge a unit through the impassible wall if they are within 1" of the wall. The wall counts as if they're you - so the enemy just needs to get within 1" of the wall. He annihilated my Shalaxi and then death gripped my Keeper down to like, 6 wounds. The worst part was once it was my turn I realized... THE FORBIDDEN GEM! I forgot to use it and the Mirror was RIGHT THERE. Biggest facepalm moment of the tournament for me - I could have annihilated Rex in that turn and it would have been a completely different game. It really threw me off and I just proceeded to get bushwhacked lol.

Game 4: Not much to note here. I ended up abusing the rule I learned last game with the wall to kill the big flamer yvara thing. Ran up, encircled, stabby stabby. Only got 2 rounds in due to Tau player being slow but it was fine - I was there for fun and we had a great time playing each other.

Game 5: This was the best, most exciting game of the tournament for me. White Scars seriously have some BRUTAL and awesome tricks! It was a very tactical, exciting game. It really came down to him being surprised by my speed - as he was trying to rope me into a trap where I need to come up to fight but he'd charge me first. I got a lucky 6 on an advance roll on his left flank and ended up rolling him up from both sides. He tried to reinforce on the left but then I came in on the right.

How would I change my list?

Honestly - I don't know that I would. The only thing I can think of is removing the Seekers and putting in 3 squads of 3 Fiends... but I think they might die too easily compared to the blob of seekers. But they'd be easier to hide and once they got in on someone they're completely stuck. I didn't run into any moment where I was like "Well - should have brought this unit instead".

Nice!

Hi! New to Daemons. And when I say new I mean I dont have any models yet but i've pored over battlescribe for hours and what I was thinking is very much along the lines of what you have here. Quick question though if you had to convert this list to 1500pts, what would you take out?

I'm coming from Admech so this is a complete opposite mindset for me, which is kind of the idea, change of pace keep things fresh. So there are a lot of things I wont even have considered I suspect!

Thanks in advance.

I agree with the post above - should definitely wait until the new Psychic Awakening book, as that may change some things (or not at all lol).

If I had to convert it into a 1500k list though... hrm..

Because I am lazy I'd just drop the Seekers & drop the Daemonettes down to 20 a piece and one to 10.

Quick question, is the start collecting box the only way to get an exalted chariot? Or do people just buy the regular one and exalt-it-up. Pricing up the army and it seems to make sense to get at least 3 start collecting boxes for the daemonettes and chariots...less bothered about the seekers as it looks as though fiends are maybe the better choice for getting in face early...just not sure how you keep them in range of a character to be able to advance and charge...

Still learning )

Octovol wrote:
Quick question, is the start collecting box the only way to get an exalted chariot? Or do people just buy the regular one and exalt-it-up. Pricing up the army and it seems to make sense to get at least 3 start collecting boxes for the daemonettes and chariots...less bothered about the seekers as it looks as though fiends are maybe the better choice for getting in face early...just not sure how you keep them in range of a character to be able to advance and charge...

Still learning )

the exalted chariot is made from 2 of the regular chariots and you can get a herald out of it (around $80 canadian). for that price you might as well get the Start collecting (adds a $35 and $40 box of units for a total of $110) the only catch is i don't think the box has the instruction and definitely not the bases if you want to build 2 small chariots

Octovol wrote:
Quick question, is the start collecting box the only way to get an exalted chariot? Or do people just buy the regular one and exalt-it-up. Pricing up the army and it seems to make sense to get at least 3 start collecting boxes for the daemonettes and chariots...less bothered about the seekers as it looks as though fiends are maybe the better choice for getting in face early...just not sure how you keep them in range of a character to be able to advance and charge...

Still learning )

i made mine myself with slaanesh seekers heartseekers, tz screamers and SL seekers mounts

 p5freak wrote:

Tazberry wrote:
But there’s a faq (somewhere) that says that a unit that been summoned do not gain detachment bonuses and loci. So if you have a full Slaanesh detachment and summon a character, that character do not give locus so you can advance and charge.

I remember reading that FAQ, but i just cant find it.

Are you thinking of the Poxwalkers FAQ? Similar situation, sets a common sense precedent, not strictly applicable

 lindsay40k wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Tazberry wrote:
But there’s a faq (somewhere) that says that a unit that been summoned do not gain detachment bonuses and loci. So if you have a full Slaanesh detachment and summon a character, that character do not give locus so you can advance and charge.

I remember reading that FAQ, but i just cant find it.

Are you thinking of the Poxwalkers FAQ? Similar situation, sets a common sense precedent, not strictly applicable

I remember reading a FAQ that said that a summoned unit is a newly created unit, and not part of a detachment, and doesnt benefit from any detachment bonuses, something like that.

How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.

Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.

play 2 or 3 like distractions, some can deal with them some not.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.

Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.

Line of sight terrain, warp-surging, but mainly making sure there are enough threats on the board so that if you lose the Keeper it isn't the biggest deal. And if you opponent knows this they may not focus it as hard. You can't think of the Keeper like a Knight where if you lose them, it really hurts.They are both a distraction but also very choppy if they manage to get in. I never play with just one unless it's a fun/casual game as well.

dont play less then 2 of them or is a waste, 2-3 is ok for me.

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.

Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.

Line of sight terrain, warp-surging, but mainly making sure there are enough threats on the board so that if you lose the Keeper it isn't the biggest deal. And if you opponent knows this they may not focus it as hard. You can't think of the Keeper like a Knight where if you lose them, it really hurts.They are both a distraction but also very choppy if they manage to get in. I never play with just one unless it's a fun/casual game as well.

What would you say is a bigger threat to the enemy than a Keeper of Secrets and how do you "play up" that threat?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.

Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.

Line of sight terrain, warp-surging, but mainly making sure there are enough threats on the board so that if you lose the Keeper it isn't the biggest deal. And if you opponent knows this they may not focus it as hard. You can't think of the Keeper like a Knight where if you lose them, it really hurts.They are both a distraction but also very choppy if they manage to get in. I never play with just one unless it's a fun/casual game as well.

What would you say is a bigger threat to the enemy than a Keeper of Secrets and how do you "play up" that threat?

A lot of Slaanesh is surprisingly choppy. Even Daemonettes can do a surprising amount of damage to tough targets. That said, Syll'Esske and the Mirror are definitely bigger threats in my opinion, particularly the mirror. I actually used my Keepers as giant shields to defend my mirror. Though I usually bring two to three of them. Slaanesh is able to grab a TON of board control and grab it early on. You can effectively shut down a decent amount of armies by wrapping them with Seekers & having the mirror in there to block them from falling back. It's why people tried to shoot up my Seekers first, the +1 advance & charge and reroll assaults and locking shooty armies in combat was great. Meanwhile - you're grabbing points.

Granted - if you're playing games entirely based on killing each other. Losing the Keeper definitely hurts more.

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.

Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.

Line of sight terrain, warp-surging, but mainly making sure there are enough threats on the board so that if you lose the Keeper it isn't the biggest deal. And if you opponent knows this they may not focus it as hard. You can't think of the Keeper like a Knight where if you lose them, it really hurts.They are both a distraction but also very choppy if they manage to get in. I never play with just one unless it's a fun/casual game as well.

What would you say is a bigger threat to the enemy than a Keeper of Secrets and how do you "play up" that threat?

A lot of Slaanesh is surprisingly choppy. Even Daemonettes can do a surprising amount of damage to tough targets. That said, Syll'Esske and the Mirror are definitely bigger threats in my opinion, particularly the mirror. I actually used my Keepers as giant shields to defend my mirror. Though I usually bring two to three of them. Slaanesh is able to grab a TON of board control and grab it early on. You can effectively shut down a decent amount of armies by wrapping them with Seekers & having the mirror in there to block them from falling back. It's why people tried to shoot up my Seekers first, the +1 advance & charge and reroll assaults and locking shooty armies in combat was great. Meanwhile - you're grabbing points.

Granted - if you're playing games entirely based on killing each other. Losing the Keeper definitely hurts more.

No, no, I get all that. I just struggle because the enemy typically puts the little guns into the 'nettes/Fiends (9 wounds at t4 with a 5++ dies fast to bolters)/seekers and the big guns into the Keepers. I haven't run into an enemy who would rather fire lascannons/meltaguns at Seekers/Fiends/'nettes instead of a Keeper. Keepers are actually fairly resilient against these big guns - a 5++ goes a long way against guns that would typically bring it down worse than that with a 3+ save - but not as resilient as is necessary. Lists keyed to take down IG + Knights can handle Slaanesh + Keepers.

I've tried to keep units in combat with the Mirror and Fiends, but the only one I've had success with is the Mirror. Fiends are so squishy that they get shot to pieces, and then the one that makes it in gets beaten to death. The Mirror is better, but not as reliable (ld on a 3d6 is good, but not foolproof). Lastly, my units are so good in combat that they typically murderhatedestroy the enemy unit in question. You don't have to fall back fighting a Keeper - the Keeper probably vaporized the unit it swung at, and your lines are more than 3" apart playing against Slaanesh. Even if they don't (i.e. it's a huge unit) they take enough casualties that they can pull so the unit is more than 6" from the Mirror - I've had that happen to me at least once.

Tips would be appreciated; I want to improve.

So we have a bunch of good choppy units and characters that we need to get into combat but some that aren't quite quick enough to do it turn one so we need some fast stuff that's gonna get in their face and tie stuff or offer a more pressing target to save the big stuff being shot at? I like it

Without any real shooty units though, there are so many similar units to compare )

Three obvious options are:

3 x exalted seekers with mirror escort
3 x 5 seekers with mirror escort
3 x 3 fiends...need something with them to allow advance and charge though...herald on seeker chariot?

The obvious answer would be to take 2 of the three anyway, but I have choice blindness, chariots can shoot while in combat, the masque makes everything better especially chariots and daemonettes...

Seems like chariots might be a better choice? More wounds, tougher, better save, more and stronger attacks, I guess you can surround stuff easier with seekers but chariots are cheaper and cooler imo

At first, I thought Fiends might be a better option as they guarantee the inability to fallback...but they're so many more points and stuff that flies can still fall back unaffected whereas the mirror has a chance to prevent even them which would be handy against riptides and the like

Lastly, my units are so good in combat that they typically murderhatedestroy the enemy unit in question. You don't have to fall back fighting a Keeper - the Keeper probably vaporized the unit it swung at, and your lines are more than 3" apart playing against Slaanesh. Even if they don't (i.e. it's a huge unit) they take enough casualties that they can pull so the unit is more than 6" from the Mirror - I've had that happen to me at least once.

this is why you need to learn how much attacks you want deliver in your turn and wait opponent turn to wipe out units then consolidate and recharge in your turn, fiends and mirror are a great tool to help you achieve that. Slaanesh is not nurgle, you cant demand to soak tons of firepower and win an attriction war, you must play sneaky and cunning, this is why a lot have no success with Slaanesh, it's too difficult to properly play and any mistake can lead to a mess. You need lot of play practice, it's not like play the old 90-120 PB spam+Ts, common in here months ago.

 blackmage wrote:

Lastly, my units are so good in combat that they typically murderhatedestroy the enemy unit in question. You don't have to fall back fighting a Keeper - the Keeper probably vaporized the unit it swung at, and your lines are more than 3" apart playing against Slaanesh. Even if they don't (i.e. it's a huge unit) they take enough casualties that they can pull so the unit is more than 6" from the Mirror - I've had that happen to me at least once.

this is why you need to learn how much attacks you want deliver in your turn and wait opponent turn to wipe out units then consolidate and recharge in your turn, fiends and mirror are a great tool to help you achieve that. Slaanesh is not nurgle, you cant demand to soak tons of firepower and win an attriction war, you must play sneaky and cunning, this is why a lot have no success with Slaanesh, it's too difficult to properly play and any mistake can lead to a mess. You need lot of play practice, it's not like play the old 90-120 PB spam+Ts, common in here months ago.

I know what to do, I just have trouble executing. I'll keep trying and learning, but so far I've failed to execute a "locked in combat" about as much as I've succeeded - 50/50.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Spoiler:

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.

Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.

Line of sight terrain, warp-surging, but mainly making sure there are enough threats on the board so that if you lose the Keeper it isn't the biggest deal. And if you opponent knows this they may not focus it as hard. You can't think of the Keeper like a Knight where if you lose them, it really hurts.They are both a distraction but also very choppy if they manage to get in. I never play with just one unless it's a fun/casual game as well.

What would you say is a bigger threat to the enemy than a Keeper of Secrets and how do you "play up" that threat?

A lot of Slaanesh is surprisingly choppy. Even Daemonettes can do a surprising amount of damage to tough targets. That said, Syll'Esske and the Mirror are definitely bigger threats in my opinion, particularly the mirror. I actually used my Keepers as giant shields to defend my mirror. Though I usually bring two to three of them. Slaanesh is able to grab a TON of board control and grab it early on. You can effectively shut down a decent amount of armies by wrapping them with Seekers & having the mirror in there to block them from falling back. It's why people tried to shoot up my Seekers first, the +1 advance & charge and reroll assaults and locking shooty armies in combat was great. Meanwhile - you're grabbing points.

Granted - if you're playing games entirely based on killing each other. Losing the Keeper definitely hurts more.

No, no, I get all that. I just struggle because the enemy typically puts the little guns into the 'nettes/Fiends (9 wounds at t4 with a 5++ dies fast to bolters)/seekers and the big guns into the Keepers. I haven't run into an enemy who would rather fire lascannons/meltaguns at Seekers/Fiends/'nettes instead of a Keeper. Keepers are actually fairly resilient against these big guns - a 5++ goes a long way against guns that would typically bring it down worse than that with a 3+ save - but not as resilient as is necessary. Lists keyed to take down IG + Knights can handle Slaanesh + Keepers.

I've tried to keep units in combat with the Mirror and Fiends, but the only one I've had success with is the Mirror. Fiends are so squishy that they get shot to pieces, and then the one that makes it in gets beaten to death. The Mirror is better, but not as reliable (ld on a 3d6 is good, but not foolproof). Lastly, my units are so good in combat that they typically murderhatedestroy the enemy unit in question. You don't have to fall back fighting a Keeper - the Keeper probably vaporized the unit it swung at, and your lines are more than 3" apart playing against Slaanesh. Even if they don't (i.e. it's a huge unit) they take enough casualties that they can pull so the unit is more than 6" from the Mirror - I've had that happen to me at least once.

Tips would be appreciated; I want to improve.

I see what you're saying now. I'll break this up into a few points - though it looks like Blackmage covered one of my points already.

1. Everything discussed here is assuming you're playing with a decent amount of LOS blocking terrain. If you're playing with an open field - there's not a whole lot our suggestions will do to mitigate being shot off the board haha. I usually stress this because everyones gaming environment is different but two big LOS blocking pieces are the norm - even for narrative style games... actually narrative normally will have more, depending on what is happening. It's a moot conversation if you're unable to be crafty - which as Blackmage said, is kinda required for Slaanesh.

2. That said - if you're playing Slaanesh, don't view the combat phase as where you will win the game. If you make contact - you will kill something or at least hurt it generally. Slaanesh wins the game in the movement phases. So the critical phases are - Deployment, Movement, Charge, Pile-in, Consolidate. Knowing the rules for these phases are critical. You can get an extra 6" of movement in the combat phase and you need to use it to your advantage to swing in to make contact with the next line if possible. It can feel a little gamey in narrative style games but just imagine waves of sprinting daemons crashing over the enemy in waves if that helps. This includes placing objectives - if you're Slaanesh, place them in forward positions as much as possible as you know you'll be moving up. Don't backline if you can avoid it.

3. Redunancy and board presence will be my last point. This thought is why I did not subscribe to the idea some people had when I posted my list for my GT to cut one of my Daemonette squads down to 10 or so and boost the others to 30. Everything we have is cheap and if it's worth bringing one - it's worth bringing multiples (with obvious exceptions). Want a Keeper? Bring 2-3 - Exalted Chariot? 2-3. Daemonette blobs? 3 of 20+. Yes - stuff will die. But with redundancy - you should have enough stuff on the board that it is difficult to shoot off, particularly since everything gets an invulnerable save. Especially if you get first turn - push EVERYTHING up as a single wave. The way I've gone about this is to deploy in deliberate waves. I have contingents of the army moving 14" base, then 12" base, then the infantry moving 7-9" base. Biggest numbers go first, all packed together. Create an over overwhelming board presence - even if they kill the first wave, the second and third wave is not far behind (if at all behind). Because Slaanesh can put so much on the board it can be daunting to kill it all - obviously it happens but we're discussing trying to mitigate it. Use LOS as you can when moving the wave up btw.

This way, when you do get in, you're beginning to swamp them - you're not relying on a unit or two to hold them in combat.

Hope this is more what you were looking for. If not I can try to elaborate again.

That is very helpful, thank you! I will reconsider my lists, but it sounds like I just have to do better.

The LOS blocking terrain is a big problem. Our store doesn't use ITC rules, the ruins have windows, etc. Essentially, 0 terrain pieces block a Keeper of Secrets.

EDIT:

Also another point on listbuilding - with 90 Daemonettes, would you suggest 3x20 in one BN and 3x10 in another? I know that violates your unit size mentioning, but IDK if I want to run 120 daemonettes. I'd still like the CP for 2x BN.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
That is very helpful, thank you! I will reconsider my lists, but it sounds like I just have to do better.

The LOS blocking terrain is a big problem. Our store doesn't use ITC rules, the ruins have windows, etc. Essentially, 0 terrain pieces block a Keeper of Secrets.

EDIT:

Also another point on listbuilding - with 90 Daemonettes, would you suggest 3x20 in on BN and 3x10? I know that violates your unit size mentioning, but IDK if I want to run 120 daemonettes. I'd still like the CP for 2x BN.

Ah - yeah the LOS thing is an issue. Particularly since this edition favors shooting so much.

As for the 90 Daemonettes. I'm not sure what BN is - but my suggestion would be 3 squads of 30 if you have 90. Or 3 of 25. At 20 it just lets them get knocked down below the 20 threshold immediately. They have to sink a little more fire into them with the 25-30 range. Though I tend to roll obnoxiously well on my saves haha.

 ArmchairArbiter wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
That is very helpful, thank you! I will reconsider my lists, but it sounds like I just have to do better.

The LOS blocking terrain is a big problem. Our store doesn't use ITC rules, the ruins have windows, etc. Essentially, 0 terrain pieces block a Keeper of Secrets.

EDIT:

Also another point on listbuilding - with 90 Daemonettes, would you suggest 3x20 in on BN and 3x10? I know that violates your unit size mentioning, but IDK if I want to run 120 daemonettes. I'd still like the CP for 2x BN.

Ah - yeah the LOS thing is an issue. Particularly since this edition favors shooting so much.

As for the 90 Daemonettes. I'm not sure what BN is - but my suggestion would be 3 squads of 30 if you have 90. Or 3 of 25. At 20 it just lets them get knocked down below the 20 threshold immediately. They have to sink a little more fire into them with the 25-30 range. Though I tend to roll obnoxiously well on my saves haha.

BN means Battalion, sorry, lol.

I have a few more than 90 but motivation to paint plummets after nearly 100