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with actual codex demons will go nowhere in 9th edition...

With the new morale however, is there still much value in taking banners outside of requiring them for some of the stratagems? I used them mostly for the chance of morale mitigation, however now that a 1 automatically passes, this seams less valuable. Sure, d6 models coming back is nice, but I could just buy 2 more troop models per banner and would likely end up with more models than what would be returned over the life of the game.

If you take a morale test every turn you wlil average 3.5 models back over the course of the game. I don't think it's worth it unless you're running max size squads. But if you are running max size squads icons can help you extend the life of that squad which can sometimes ruin your opponent's plans. There's no way to "buy 2 more models" when you're already at 30 so that's where I'd use them.

Also I believe plaguebearers have a way to roll 2D6 choose lowest on morale, so it's definitely worth it there.

In the case of 30 splitting pinks, it's definitely worth it. It basically turns 150 wounds into 165-170 wounds.

Daemonettes also have Syl'Eskee for the roll 2d6 take lowest. That becomes about 7 models back per game *if* you take morale every time. In my experience, I tend to take morale at most 3 times on a squad before it is wiped out, but usually it's only once for a max squad.

The splitting pinks is certainly interesting as a tar pit unit and durable objective holder. Getting 150 wounds from the unit is unlikely (morale would likely eliminate some before splitting) and requires you to hold points in reserve. It makes for an interesting balancing act as you can grow over your initial unit size, but that would result in more casualties due to morale! 9th ed points values will be interesting to see and will determine how valuable splitting will be. As it stands, you can buy 2 additional units of pinks for the points you would spend on splitting all the way down (and with change too!). 60 less wounds, but more board presence, better saves, AND actual shooting! Potentially 180 shots BS 4+ S3 (or 4, or 5 depending on buffs).

In any case I'm really looking forward to trying out pinks. Capping morale losses at 1/6 of the unit size makes splitting very interesting.

It will no longer be possible to kill 40 horrors and cause another 33-39 horrors to automatically flee. Instead, say if the remaining post-split unit size is 50 horrors, only 8 will flee. That is a big difference.

Plaguebearers with banner and sloppity is going to be better.

Fishing for 1's is fun. Take 1 casualty you won't lose any models but roll 2d6 hoping for a 1.

The rules don't prohibit us from rolling morale even if we KNOW we won't fail. Obviously with units that don't have banners you can't fish.

In 9th if I lose 10 plaguebearers I roll 2d6, pick the lowest. If I fail I lose 1 plaguebearer and then roll d6 for each of the other 9 (i take mine in 20 strong). I'll lose 2 more on average so I've lost 13.

Currently if a roll a 5 and 6 and I can't reroll the "5" for some reason I lose (10+5-7) = 8 more for a total of 18 dead.

I gain 5 Plaguebearers in 9th.

With the new cover and blast rules anyone giving a second look at skull cannons? I feel like they might be a good choice in most lists of the points remain reasonable.

 buddha wrote:
With the new cover and blast rules anyone giving a second look at skull cannons? I feel like they might be a good choice in most lists of the points remain reasonable.

I've got two and I'll definitely be playing them now. Hopefully the BS and WS of the Soul Grinder will be improved to make it worthwhile as well.

The cap on -1 to hit and the ability to move and shoot with no penalty helps all shooty Chaos vehicles a lot.

If icon resurrection is likely to break even, take it. It’s a psych-out that knocks your opponent off guard

Horticulous has a new niche - his ability to sow FGM’s gets around the hard cap on detachments

Technically, a CSM hero can summon him and he can drop an FGM in the same turn, enabling Nurgle Daemonkin in smaller games

jivardi wrote:
Plaguebearers with banner and sloppity is going to be better.

Fishing for 1's is fun. Take 1 casualty you won't lose any models but roll 2d6 hoping for a 1.

The rules don't prohibit us from rolling morale even if we KNOW we won't fail. Obviously with units that don't have banners you can't fish.

In 9th if I lose 10 plaguebearers I roll 2d6, pick the lowest. If I fail I lose 1 plaguebearer and then roll d6 for each of the other 9 (i take mine in 20 strong). I'll lose 2 more on average so I've lost 13.

Currently if a roll a 5 and 6 and I can't reroll the "5" for some reason I lose (10+5-7) = 8 more for a total of 18 dead.

I gain 5 Plaguebearers in 9th.

The counterpoint is if you take 2 casualties, the max models you can lose to morale in 8th is 1, but in 9th you would lose 4 (in a 20 man squad, or 4.5 in a 30 man).


I'm wondering if 9th might see the bigger units like plague drones come back - at 9 models theyre not getting destroyed by blast weapons, still very hard to kill, and screen very well for smaller characters

Might have misread but I thought blast weapons do their max shots at 6 models?

 buddha wrote:
Might have misread but I thought blast weapons do their max shots at 6 models?

11+ is max shots

jivardi wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Might have misread but I thought blast weapons do their max shots at 6 models?

11+ is max shots

That makes it much better.

Trasvi wrote:

jivardi wrote:
Plaguebearers with banner and sloppity is going to be better.

Fishing for 1's is fun. Take 1 casualty you won't lose any models but roll 2d6 hoping for a 1.

The rules don't prohibit us from rolling morale even if we KNOW we won't fail. Obviously with units that don't have banners you can't fish.

In 9th if I lose 10 plaguebearers I roll 2d6, pick the lowest. If I fail I lose 1 plaguebearer and then roll d6 for each of the other 9 (i take mine in 20 strong). I'll lose 2 more on average so I've lost 13.

Currently if a roll a 5 and 6 and I can't reroll the "5" for some reason I lose (10+5-7) = 8 more for a total of 18 dead.

I gain 5 Plaguebearers in 9th.

The counterpoint is if you take 2 casualties, the max models you can lose to morale in 8th is 1, but in 9th you would lose 4 (in a 20 man squad, or 4.5 in a 30 man).




I'm wondering if 9th might see the bigger units like plague drones come back - at 9 models theyre not getting destroyed by blast weapons, still very hard to kill, and screen very well for smaller characters

If your opponent only manages to kill 4 plaguebearers while the unit is at full strength, that's a win. Plague drones coming back would be amazing. They've always been decent and I absolutely love the models.

Almost everything Nurgle looks good, in a disgusting way.

Psychic phase rules have been leaked.

Changes I see: Each psyker model/unit has to attempt all their powers before you can move onto the next psyker so no more bunny hopping around. Gotta plan your activation's ahead of time.

Nothing that says Smite is limited to one attempt per character. Just says the cost goes up by one and that it can be cast multiple times per turn but doesn't specifically say once per model. I'm sure it's intended once per model/unit but maybe not.

jivardi wrote:
Psychic phase rules have been leaked.

Changes I see: Each psyker model/unit has to attempt all their powers before you can move onto the next psyker so no more bunny hopping around. Gotta plan your activation's ahead of time.

Nothing that says Smite is limited to one attempt per character. Just says the cost goes up by one and that it can be cast multiple times per turn but doesn't specifically say once per model. I'm sure it's intended once per model/unit but maybe not.

The general rule that a unit can only attempt each power it knows a single time would prevent you from casting Smite multiple times from the same source.

With all these changes im not even sure where thats going to leave me with mono slaanesh. Supreme command being changed, anti-horde ruleset.. maybe ill have to invest in some chariots or learn Age of sigmar (pray warhammer comes back)

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

jivardi wrote:
Psychic phase rules have been leaked.

Changes I see: Each psyker model/unit has to attempt all their powers before you can move onto the next psyker so no more bunny hopping around. Gotta plan your activation's ahead of time.

Nothing that says Smite is limited to one attempt per character. Just says the cost goes up by one and that it can be cast multiple times per turn but doesn't specifically say once per model. I'm sure it's intended once per model/unit but maybe not.

The general rule that a unit can only attempt each power it knows a single time would prevent you from casting Smite multiple times from the same source.

No, I think Jivardi is correct. The way the rules are written for 9th doesn't prevent multiple casts of smite by a single psyker. Although it is possible that a clause was overlooked, if you want to point out which section / paragraph it is in (not sure on the forum rules of quoting the actual text in this situation)

No limit in smite atm. Big Bird exalted do 4 smites with +2 bonus and +1 damage from 30" away.

outside of that, daemons are pretty much fracked. Troops will get crushed from blast weapons. Greater daemons from eradicators, smaller HQs are now limited because SupCom is gone.

Khorne and Slaanesh are DoA because Judicar exists now, Nurgle is capped on -1 to hit so he's out too.

Burning chariot will probably be able to fly + shoot with no penalty so that's a thing I guess, and skull cannons are a bit better, but that's about it honestly.

Summoning seems to be the same so also useless.

Really doesn;t look good for daemons.

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Khorne and Slaanesh are DoA because Judicar exists now, Nurgle is capped on -1 to hit so he's out too.

The Judicar only affects 1 unit in combat. It'll be no different to if you were playing vs the Drukhari mask relic. You'll prob see the Judicar in a few lists, but i doubt you'll see it in every Marine list, simply because it takes up a HQ slot and you're going to want to avoid buying additional detachments when, and where, you can.

Kdash wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Khorne and Slaanesh are DoA because Judicar exists now, Nurgle is capped on -1 to hit so he's out too.

The Judicar only affects 1 unit in combat. It'll be no different to if you were playing vs the Drukhari mask relic. You'll prob see the Judicar in a few lists, but i doubt you'll see it in every Marine list, simply because it takes up a HQ slot and you're going to want to avoid buying additional detachments when, and where, you can.

It's an elite. You'll be seeing them aplenty.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Kdash wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Khorne and Slaanesh are DoA because Judicar exists now, Nurgle is capped on -1 to hit so he's out too.

The Judicar only affects 1 unit in combat. It'll be no different to if you were playing vs the Drukhari mask relic. You'll prob see the Judicar in a few lists, but i doubt you'll see it in every Marine list, simply because it takes up a HQ slot and you're going to want to avoid buying additional detachments when, and where, you can.

It's an elite. You'll be seeing them aplenty.

Oh, my mistake then... Hrm.... It'll be a problem, but a workable one imo.

jivardi wrote:
Psychic phase rules have been leaked.

Changes I see: Each psyker model/unit has to attempt all their powers before you can move onto the next psyker so no more bunny hopping around. Gotta plan your activation's ahead of time.

Nothing that says Smite is limited to one attempt per character. Just says the cost goes up by one and that it can be cast multiple times per turn but doesn't specifically say once per model. I'm sure it's intended once per model/unit but maybe not.

I suspect the Smite limit will be in the Matched Play rules, just like they were last edition. Rule of Three also hasn't been mentioned but again, it should be in the Matched Play section which hasn't been revealed yet.

Smite limit was in the base book in 8th.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Smite limit was in the base book in 8th.

EDIT: You may be right.

I hope that the supreme command detachment opens up for more characters, as it would be perfect for the named greater daemons, and I would love to use it for Kairos.

I'm going to try to keep my plaguebearers in woods.

-1 to be hit (yeah it doesn't stack with the -1 to hit for being over 20 strong but now I don't need to take units of 20+ to get the same benefit) is still incredible and I can take units of 10 to be able to spread out my objective holders more.

Armies (other than Tau) need to blow a CP to OW and can only select 1 unit to OW with so I don't think Bloodletters and Daemonettes are all that hosed.

I never liked multicharging. Some units you need weight of attacks to wipe out and putting 5 bloodletters on 3 different units sometimes meant that my big bomb of 15 was as effective as a unit of 10 gaurdsman. I'd rather put all 15 (or as many as possible, probably more than 5) on a single unit, wipe it and then eat the shooting the following turn.

That's kind of what BL bombs did anyway.

We can pay CP to hold those units in SR (up to 1/2 of our army can go into SR so 1k points in a 2k game).

The BEAST and SWARM keywords showing up in 90% of terrain rules alongside INFANTRY looks like a net buff. Quite a few underplayed units had those. Also, looking forward to imagining my Flesh Hounds running up the sides of buildings!

Then the engagement range of 5" vertical, 1" horizontal works for the rest of our units with the CAVALRY, CHARIOT or MONSTER keyword.

Slaanesh Quicksilver Swiftness seems to be getting a buff based on my interpretation of the fight order rules (see one of my other recent posts in another thread). Although now that I read the actual rule:

This unit always fight first in the Fight
phase, even if it didn’t charge. If the enemy
has units that have charged, or that have
a similar ability, then alternate choosing
units to fight with, starting with the player
whose turn is taking place.

Contradicts the fight order in 9th... Hopefully gets an early FAQ.

Quite a few DAEMON PSYKERS tend to only cast one spell each, making them excellent options to do a Psychic action secondary.