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Slaanesh daemons, nurglings, and Exalted Lords of Change have been really strong for a long time. Slaanesh daemons in particular are fast, melee blenders which means they're great at playing objectives. They are also generally inefficient for most armies to kill since everyone's packing high AP, anti-space marine weapons.

I see, thank you for the responses!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I see, thank you for the responses!

Goonhammer has a series of articles called Competitive Innovations in 9th where they go over the top 4 lists from recent tourneys. Take a breeze through those of you want to see some more competitive daemons/chaos soup lists.

Anyone want to share any wishlisting/ speculation for the next codex (whenever it comes)? Not tactics strictly speaking I know, I hope it's alright to post here. In no particular order:

NURGLE:
-Rotigus buffed (in line with exalted GDs)
-GUOs bilesword upped to d3+3 damage
-Disgustingly resilient change?
-Hopefully improved relics and warlord traits
-Some way of improving AP? Maybe virulent blessing reworked to do this

KHORNE:
-Skarbrand buffed (in line with exalted GDs)
-Skulltaker improved hopefully
-Improved warlord traits

TZEENTCH:
-Fateweaver buffed (in line with exalted GDs)
-Psychic discipline substantially improved
-Blue flame attack of exalted flamer upped to flat 3 damage
-Blue/brimstone horrors reworked.

SLAANESH:
-Actually already in really good shape. Can't think of too many tweaks necessary (maybe some nerfs, in fact).

UNDIVIDED/ <ALLEGIANCE>
- Belakor able to be taken in a detachment without losing mono faction loci
-Soul grinder upped to ws and bs 3+

Definitely agree that the named greater daemons have been largely left in the dust by the exalted ones.

And khorne warlord traits are diabolical (and not in good way)

What the hell are deamons supposed to do against the nightbringer? It literally counters all our defenses and can't be taken down in return. Anyone have any tips against the thing? And yes, I already tried he avoid it strategy.

That's a good question. 12 S7 attacks ignoring both our invulns and our FNPs means we can't drown it in bodies like we normally do. Necrodermis + living metal means we can't just blow it up with bloodletters or keepers. If it stands at the center of the map it can basically force us to deal with it.

Obviously we'll need to smite it with the Exalted LoC and punch it with one of our many melee units. The tricky part is dealing 3 wounds in the shooting phase.

A Tzeentch flamer bomb could do the trick. Six deep striking flamers buffed with flickering flames should do just over 3 wounds to a Nightbringer.

Do both attack profiles of the nightbringer ignore invulns and FNP? If so, that's brutal.

Plaguebearers in a large unit with a -1 to hit and T4 will slow it somewhat, unless it has a reroll to hit too?

You're right, my bad. Both attack profiles ignore FNPs but only the strong profile ignores invulns. That seems a lot less scary now that I look at it. It will take him several turns to chew through a max unit plaguebearers, even ignoring FNPs.

Still I think flamers are one of our best options for alpha striking him off the board before he does anything.

 buddha wrote:
What the hell are deamons supposed to do against the nightbringer?

Wait for the new codex.

 buddha wrote:
What the hell are deamons supposed to do against the nightbringer? It literally counters all our defenses and can't be taken down in return. Anyone have any tips against the thing? And yes, I already tried he avoid it strategy.

My regular opponent plays Necrons and he has been running the Nightbringer for a while (it was good in 8th edition too).

Here is how I deal with it:
As Tzeentch - Splitting Horrors to tie it up (it averages killing 10 models per round of combat). Kill it over the three phases - psychic, shooting, and combat.
As Slaanesh - Allow it to charge you and shut it down with the forbidden gem. You can do 3 wounds in combat in their turn, then psychic and combat in your turn.
As Nurgle - I've had a lot of success with tying it up with 9xNurglings (use Nurgling Infestation for 1CP to help). They are good enough to absorb it's punishment. This is more tricky for Nurgle, but psychic and combat at the winners.
As Khorne - Uh, this is the hardest as Khorne doesn't have psychic to back him up. Rather rely on the shooting you have (skull cannons, whips from BTs), the mortal wound strat from Blood Crushers in the charge phase, and good old combat.

In addition, anything that causes a -1 to hit in combat hurts the Nightbringers damage output significantly (so Plague Bearers, Miasma of Pestilence, Symphony of Pain, The Masque of Slaanesh's Locus of Beguilement, Tzeentch Loci, etc). I'm sure you can find other debuffs that can help you fight the good fight.

The best thing to keep in mind is that the Nightbringer is best dealt with over two or more turns. Our troops are cheap enough that they can tie it up for long enough for the rest of your army to do damage in other phases.

Those are some great suggestions. I had totally forgotten about the forbidden gem. I figure on a KoS with the gem teamed with Shilaxi might do it.

Daemons are looking pretty good atm so most of this is more of a wishlist than any real expectation of change in our next codex.

For Tzeentch, I agree that the Exalted Flamer's blue flame going to a flat damage 3 would be great - or keeping current profile and being changed to Assault.

Burning Chariots need a bit of help - the EF on top hits worse from his chariot than on foot. It is probably too much wishful thinking but an extra point of T would be wonderful too to make HBs wound on 5s.

LoC, Flamers and Pinks are all very good atm.

My screamers still get a lot of play anyway but a 3+ WS would be cake on top and maybe not so out of the realm of possibility with daemon engines going to 3s as well. This would help make them more self sufficient as I really only use them as a bodyguard for a flying DP to grab the reroll 1s to hit aura, and since the advent of blast that has limited them to a single unit of 5.

I would love heralds and tzeentch DPs to go up to cast 2/deny 1. It feels like we are paying a heap of points atm for a company commander equivalent (can disc give +1T?) and it would open up a lot of potential combos of stacking buffs/smites/offensive spells on top of each other.

I am enjoying running my soul grinder in friendly games but he would similarly benefit from going to WS/BS 3+.

I would love for blues and potentially brims to get a degraded shooting profile like they do in AoS - something like 5+ BS and S:user.

Don't play much outside of tz but I think Khorne needs some love too.

Bloodletters should be able to fight twice, as melee is the absolutely only thing that they can do. Also, Bloodthirsters should get at least some of the cool abilities and command abilities that they get in AOS.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Bloodletters should be able to fight twice, as melee is the absolutely only thing that they can do. Also, Bloodthirsters should get at least some of the cool abilities and command abilities that they get in AOS.

I saw nothing to change for the Bloodletters but when I look the daemonettes, they should bring the pts to 7 or give a T4 to keep them at 8 pts

 hellpato wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Bloodletters should be able to fight twice, as melee is the absolutely only thing that they can do. Also, Bloodthirsters should get at least some of the cool abilities and command abilities that they get in AOS.

I saw nothing to change for the Bloodletters but when I look the daemonettes, they should bring the pts to 7 or give a T4 to keep them at 8 pts

if anyone should fight twice it should be slaanesh, bloodletters need to go back to t4 and get their 3+ armor back

Anyone thought about slotting The New One True Morty into Daemons lists?? It seems pretty doable to make a threat overload/defensive profile overload board control list with him at the center to me. Nothing too world shaking at all, just Morty plus the usual suspects from the daemons codex and it looks properly terrible to try to deal with.


++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Daemons) [78 PL, 1,458pts, -6CP] ++

+ Configuration +

Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided

Detachment CP [-3CP]

+ Stratagems +

Rewards of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Horticulus Slimux [8 PL, 160pts]

Lord of Change [14 PL, 275pts, -1CP]: Baleful sword, Boon of Change, Exalted Lord of Change, Gaze of Fate

Poxbringer [4 PL, 75pts]: Fleshy Abundance

+ Troops +

Bloodletters [12 PL, 191pts, -1CP]: Banner of Blood, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon
. 21x Bloodletter: 21x Hellblade

Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth

+ Elites +

Beasts of Nurgle [10 PL, 175pts]
. 5x Beast of Nurgle: 5x Putrid appendages

Beasts of Nurgle [8 PL, 140pts]
. 4x Beast of Nurgle: 4x Putrid appendages

Beasts of Nurgle [16 PL, 280pts]
. 8x Beast of Nurgle: 8x Putrid appendages

++ Supreme Command Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [25 PL, 490pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment CP

Plague Company

+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +

Mortarion [25 PL, 490pts]

++ Total: [103 PL, -6CP, 1,948pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I kinda like the look of this list despite its glaring lack of any shooting

Just pure threat overload. The three biggest parts of the list (Morty, Big Bird and Beasts) all pretty much need the same band of weapon profiles to tackle efficiently and none of em go down remotely easy. On top of that, ignore any one of those and they’re gonna get they’re points back and more. Morty probably rolls with Miasma for -1 to hit and the power that gives you bonus range (up to 12”) on whichever plague company aura you choose. Most games it will be the droning (half movement for all units within range) but in some cases it could be gloaming bloat (no overwatch or rerolls to hit or wound for units in range). Whichever way you go, projecting a 12” bubble of that on one of the toughest models in the game will really hamstring a lot of lists.

Weirdly enough I think the biggest question about this list is whether to take Virulent Blessing or Fleshy Abundance on the Poxbringer. Virulent can make the Beasts hit a fair bit harder but Fleshy Abundance could well put Morty over the top. You already get back 1 wound a turn from Slimy the Snail as long as Morty is w/in 7” but abundance could add D3 wounds a turn on top of that.

So at the moment I'm looking at ways to incorporate some Tzeench Daemons into my Thousand Sons force (blog in my sig) but even at 2k it does seem overly difficult.

Current TS list:
Ahriman on Disk
Daemon Prince

10x Rubrics
10x Rubrics
5x Rubrics

5x Scarab Terminators

Helbrute
Helbrute


I have the following Daemons at my disposal

Lord of Change/Fateweaver
10x Horrors
3x Screamers
6x Flamers
Exalted Flamer*
Herald of Tzeench *

*Either of which can be placed on a chariot.

I'm thinking of just adding a Patrol with the LoC, Horrors and Flamers. I mainly just want the LoC in my list, but without the boost given by a Herald, Horrors don't actually look that threatening. Is it worth getting another SC box to boost the Horrors up to 20 and the Screamers up to 6?

 Valkyrie wrote:
So at the moment I'm looking at ways to incorporate some Tzeench Daemons into my Thousand Sons force (blog in my sig) but even at 2k it does seem overly difficult.

Current TS list:
Ahriman on Disk
Daemon Prince

10x Rubrics
10x Rubrics
5x Rubrics

5x Scarab Terminators

Helbrute
Helbrute


I have the following Daemons at my disposal

Lord of Change/Fateweaver
10x Horrors
3x Screamers
6x Flamers
Exalted Flamer*
Herald of Tzeench *

*Either of which can be placed on a chariot.

I'm thinking of just adding a Patrol with the LoC, Horrors and Flamers. I mainly just want the LoC in my list, but without the boost given by a Herald, Horrors don't actually look that threatening. Is it worth getting another SC box to boost the Horrors up to 20 and the Screamers up to 6?

Hello brother in the way of all things Just as Planned. When I’m writing lists it’s most often fielding the inverse of what you’re looking to build (Daemons with a splash of TSons), but I may have some insight for you. From what I can tell you absolutely won’t regret fielding a LoC for the time being. The most popular build right now is to take him as your warlord with ephemeral form (since daemons can’t add warlord traits but your TSons can) with the impossible robe and exalted greater daemon trait Aura of Mutability. This nets you -1 damage, a 3++, and a 6+ FNP that also regains you wounds. This combo of the BiG BiRd is regarded as one of the most unkillable models in 40k currently and will always be worth its points between its utility and mortal wound output.

Your instincts about horrors are pretty accurate. They can absolutely be a fantastic addition to a list as chaff clearers/objective holders/tarpit-screen but they need support to work. As damage dealers, a Tzeentch Herald and flickering flames are basically mandatory to make them function, and as such you pretty much need to run a full blob of 30 to make the investment worth it. Expensive? Yes. But 90 S4 shots with +1 to wound is nothing to scoff at, plus they provide a lot of board control on top of that as they are relatively durable for the price.

I don’t have much experience with flamers or screamers in this edition, but both seem to be decent utility units depending on how you use them in the context of your list.

Basically if you want to add a patrol of Tzeentch daemons to your TSons, it would be hard to go wrong with a LoC, foot herald, and 30 horrors. Sprinkle in screamers/flamers to taste or as points allow. Big Bird is one of the best units in the game now and a big blob of horrors brings a few things to the table the really shore up TSons weaknesses (namely board control and high volume shooting)

As someone new to daemons I have a basic question- Is it better to have 2 units of 15 basic daemons or merge them into 1 unit of 30? I like that you get something special for having 20+ but it just seems like at that number of models the unit becomes unwieldy.

As a side question when does a banner become cost efficient in terms of unit size?

Thanks for any advice. If it makes a difference I'm looking at using daemonettes.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
As someone new to daemons I have a basic question- Is it better to have 2 units of 15 basic daemons or merge them into 1 unit of 30? I like that you get something special for having 20+ but it just seems like at that number of models the unit becomes unwieldy.

As a side question when does a banner become cost efficient in terms of unit size?

Thanks for any advice. If it makes a difference I'm looking at using daemonettes.

10 or 30... nothing between.

That's incorrect. A unit of 15-20 is excellent because it often gives you enough killing power to be a threat while saving you some points. In particular units of 20 are great because they're the max output unit you can make while still being able to Denizens of the Warp for 1CP.

Look at any of the top placing daemon lists throughout 8th and 9th edition and you'll find plenty of instances of 15-25 daemons. Max units of 30 daemons is actually the rarest I've seen among competitive lists (usually only reserved for troop spam lists) because you usually don't need a full unit to perform well at a particular role.

Ultimately the best squad size is going to depend on the rest of your list and what role you need from your daemonettes.

FYI, Mitch Byrne's 1st place Slaanesh list from Objective Secured Perth GT last week had 2x20 daemonettes. 3x20 daemonettes has also been very common this edition.

artific3r wrote:
That's incorrect. A unit of 15-20 is excellent because it often gives you enough killing power to be a threat while saving you some points. In particular units of 20 are great because they're the max output unit you can make while still being able to Denizens of the Warp for 1CP.

Look at any of the top placing daemon lists throughout 8th and 9th edition and you'll find plenty of instances of 15-25 daemons. Max units of 30 daemons is actually the rarest I've seen among competitive lists (usually only reserved for troop spam lists) because you usually don't need a full unit to perform well at a particular role.

Ultimately the best squad size is going to depend on the rest of your list and what role you need from your daemonettes.

FYI, Mitch Byrne's 1st place Slaanesh list from Objective Secured Perth GT last week had 2x20 daemonettes. 3x20 daemonettes has also been very common this edition.

By experience (im a monokhorne player and that show my bias) and where i was gaming (the didnt played since the fuckery started), I didnt see a lot of players playing around 20 daemons but i see a lot of fire power and soup that made the +/- 20 not viable.

Im waiting 9ed to change my mind/list/style of play and see how the +1 bonus we want with 20 guys will still be the backbone of the troops or it will have enough goodies to work without it.

Does anyone know the math behind when an Icon is cost effective (in terms of either points invested in a unit or the number of models in the unit)?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Does anyone know the math behind when an Icon is cost effective (in terms of either points invested in a unit or the number of models in the unit)?

It depends is the answer.

An icon has a 1/6 chance of getting models back, which is improved by a few units.

When you do get it off, you get d6 models back.

So by my reconing the math works out that, on average, you need to take 3 morale tests before you recover it's value in points - average return on the icon per turn is avg of d6 x value of model x probability to occur. In short, 3.5 x 9 (plague bearers) / 6 = 5.25 points back per Morale check.

In my experience amd opinion they are no longer worth it outside of needing them for some strats.

There is a warlord trait which allows to reroll failed morale tests, doubling the chance to roll a 1.

It also changes a failed morale test into a passed morale test so you should facture in the prevented loss of 1 guaranteed model + any attrition losses (if you took enough casualties to fail even on a 1 normally)

Did you read the rules ? Unmodified morale tests of 1 always succeed.

 p5freak wrote:
There is a warlord trait which allows to reroll failed morale tests, doubling the chance to roll a 1.

Not quite double. You have 11/36 chance of rolling a 1 with a reroll.

Another question that I thought that I'd ask here before going to YMtC. If I summon a unit of daemons do they benefit from my Legion's rule?

For example: If I had a Red Corsairs detachment and summoned a unit of bloodletters would they be allowed to advance and then charge without resorting to any rule other than the Legion rule?