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Mr.Church13 wrote:
I'm beginning to dislike screenhammer. It seems most of all of my lists begin with a bucketload of brimstones, Even my Khorne lists.

It's either that or try counting on vehicles to protect troops (which at least gets your drop count down) or deep strike as much of your army as you possibly can and hide the rest.

Youbdont need to really screen all that crazy. Nurglings get you most of the way there. Beast of nurgle can also do a pretty great job as body guard getting to intervene quite eqsily.

Punk horrors as a screen are a great shooting force that is hard to remoge.

From there outing your units inside of fortifications or transport is another option. Either way you need to put some expert into defending yourself otherwise you and your opponent should just agree to shovel models toward eachother all day and hope for the best.

Looking at older editions it was all shooting. Where ever one just set up models and rolled dice all game. Taking the stationary wound counters off the table. Some times folks even had nobel wound counters...


The way it works not shooting kills screens, screens stop melee, and melee stops shooting. So it had abit of a game there and abit of back and forth you can play.

I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?

 Rydria wrote:
I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?

You can't find them on the website as they are in the process of being reworked and remarketed for Sesame Street productions.

That should give you some idea.

In case that wasn't clear, they haven't gotten much of anything.

At all.

 Rydria wrote:
I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?

They're in there and they're not too terrible, but to me they're in a weird place where with the exception of the Fiend of Slannesh Khorne does everything they can do except better.

Unfortunately they seem to be left in the dust as GW tries to casually move away from them without actually having to admit they're moving away form them. So I wouldn't expect any Slannesh love in the near or far future.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?

They're in there and they're not too terrible, but to me they're in a weird place where with the exception of the Fiend of Slannesh Khorne does everything they can do except better.

Unfortunately they seem to be left in the dust as GW tries to casually move away from them without actually having to admit they're moving away form them. So I wouldn't expect any Slannesh love in the near or far future.

That is a shame I was looking forward to the codex as everything felt over costed in the index by a few points.

 Rydria wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?

They're in there and they're not too terrible, but to me they're in a weird place where with the exception of the Fiend of Slannesh Khorne does everything they can do except better.

Unfortunately they seem to be left in the dust as GW tries to casually move away from them without actually having to admit they're moving away form them. So I wouldn't expect any Slannesh love in the near or far future.

That is a shame I was looking forward to the codex as everything felt over costed in the index by a few points.

Rumor is Fulgrim is coming at the forefront of a Slaanesh resurgence in both AoS and 40k later this year. Plus the upcoming March big FAQ may shake up the meta. I would hold off on getting too down in the dumps about it.

I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?

They're in there and they're not too terrible, but to me they're in a weird place where with the exception of the Fiend of Slannesh Khorne does everything they can do except better.

Unfortunately they seem to be left in the dust as GW tries to casually move away from them without actually having to admit they're moving away form them. So I wouldn't expect any Slannesh love in the near or far future.

That is a shame I was looking forward to the codex as everything felt over costed in the index by a few points.

Rumor is Fulgrim is coming at the forefront of a Slaanesh resurgence in both AoS and 40k later this year. Plus the upcoming March big FAQ may shake up the meta. I would hold off on getting too down in the dumps about it.

I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.

For the record I don’t think they’re trying to remove him. They can’t do that without a huge backlash. But perpetual back burner yeah. I’d say Slannesh is pretty much already there. I mean they removed the herald on chariot and didn’t even bother to give a #Trademarkable name to the Slannesh herald.

pdated my charts and mathhammer post codex finally:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
Durability chart:

Damage charts:

Feel free to use, find mistakes, etc

Conclusions:
Pinks dump all over flamers vs screens (EVEN at -1 to hit which shouldn't happen as the -1 to hit is usually within 12'')
Bloodletters dump all over flamers against everything else
Both of them are also more durable than flamers(except letters vs pure anti-horde).
Which, sadly leads me to say: flamers are bad. Sadly. If you're running mono-tzeentch- sure, go for it.
All chariots are still bad.
Screamers are still bad.
Greater daemons are still bad - just take Skullreaver DP instead.

Nurgle conclusions: Plaguebearers(Icon), Nurglings, 3 types of heralds.
DPS GUO is just a bad Rotigus, who is bad to begin with. Bell GUO is just a bullet magnet that dies turn 1-2 and frankly isn't durable at all for his points.
Beasts are just worse Plaguebearers.
Plague Drones are questionable. You already have deepstrike and Nurglings to get where you want. But they're not bad so you might just run them anyway for utility. With the tree, they do have 22,5''+ threat range. Which is not too shabby

 blackmage wrote:
mono korne is nearly unplayable in competitive, if you dont have any efficienr way to remove cheap screens your precious letters slam into cultists, brimstones, nurglings imperial guard guards men ecc... and then obliterated by fire and countercharge, you need something to remove screens and engage something worth , imho. Korne works great with Tzeentch, horrors and/or flamers in 1st wave clean up screens then backed up by letters.

I know its a little expensive, but I plan on using hounds as screen unit as my characters move up the board.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
pdated my charts and mathhammer post codex finally:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
Durability chart:

Spoiler:

Damage charts:

Spoiler:

Feel free to use, find mistakes, etc

Conclusions:
Pinks dump all over flamers vs screens (EVEN at -1 to hit which shouldn't happen as the -1 to hit is usually within 12'')
Bloodletters dump all over flamers against everything else
Both of them are also more durable than flamers(except letters vs pure anti-horde).
Which, sadly leads me to say: flamers are bad. Sadly. If you're running mono-tzeentch- sure, go for it.
All chariots are still bad.
Screamers are still bad.
Greater daemons are still bad - just take Skullreaver DP instead.

Nurgle conclusions: Plaguebearers(Icon), Nurglings, 3 types of heralds.
DPS GUO is just a bad Rotigus, who is bad to begin with. Bell GUO is just a bullet magnet that dies turn 1-2 and frankly isn't durable at all for his points.
Beasts are just worse Plaguebearers.
Plague Drones are questionable. You already have deepstrike and Nurglings to get where you want. But they're not bad so you might just run them anyway for utility. With the tree, they do have 22,5''+ threat range. Which is not too shabby

So basically what you’re saying is don’t play Daemons at all. Just play Guard or Eldar like every single other player in the game currently. Got it.

Awesome work rvd1ofakind! Very enlightening.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
pdated my charts and mathhammer post codex finally:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
Durability chart:

Spoiler:

Damage charts:

Spoiler:

Feel free to use, find mistakes, etc

Conclusions:
Pinks dump all over flamers vs screens (EVEN at -1 to hit which shouldn't happen as the -1 to hit is usually within 12'')
Bloodletters dump all over flamers against everything else
Both of them are also more durable than flamers(except letters vs pure anti-horde).
Which, sadly leads me to say: flamers are bad. Sadly. If you're running mono-tzeentch- sure, go for it.
All chariots are still bad.
Screamers are still bad.
Greater daemons are still bad - just take Skullreaver DP instead.

Nurgle conclusions: Plaguebearers(Icon), Nurglings, 3 types of heralds.
DPS GUO is just a bad Rotigus, who is bad to begin with. Bell GUO is just a bullet magnet that dies turn 1-2 and frankly isn't durable at all for his points.
Beasts are just worse Plaguebearers.
Plague Drones are questionable. You already have deepstrike and Nurglings to get where you want. But they're not bad so you might just run them anyway for utility. With the tree, they do have 22,5''+ threat range. Which is not too shabby

So basically what you’re saying is don’t play Daemons at all. Just play Guard or Eldar like every single other player in the game currently. Got it.

Reads to me that much like the Eldar book we've got a few strong options and the rest are lackluster. If you want to build competitively you've got a very limited pool to pull from.

Glad I don’t play competitive then. Sounds like the most boring version of the game.

5 unit 40k just sounds awful.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
pdated my charts and mathhammer post codex finally:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
Durability chart:

Spoiler:

Damage charts:

Spoiler:

Feel free to use, find mistakes, etc

Conclusions:
Pinks dump all over flamers vs screens (EVEN at -1 to hit which shouldn't happen as the -1 to hit is usually within 12'')
Bloodletters dump all over flamers against everything else
Both of them are also more durable than flamers(except letters vs pure anti-horde).
Which, sadly leads me to say: flamers are bad. Sadly. If you're running mono-tzeentch- sure, go for it.
All chariots are still bad.
Screamers are still bad.
Greater daemons are still bad - just take Skullreaver DP instead.

Nurgle conclusions: Plaguebearers(Icon), Nurglings, 3 types of heralds.
DPS GUO is just a bad Rotigus, who is bad to begin with. Bell GUO is just a bullet magnet that dies turn 1-2 and frankly isn't durable at all for his points.
Beasts are just worse Plaguebearers.
Plague Drones are questionable. You already have deepstrike and Nurglings to get where you want. But they're not bad so you might just run them anyway for utility. With the tree, they do have 22,5''+ threat range. Which is not too shabby

Very interesting math-hammer. Any intersection of the two charts on the best units of damage and survivability?

Mathammer is inaccurate as it is (as it doesn't account for movement, base size, positioning bla bla bla). Making a 1 number score to value units would make it even more inaccurate on the one thing its good at

 Glitcha wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
mono korne is nearly unplayable in competitive, if you dont have any efficienr way to remove cheap screens your precious letters slam into cultists, brimstones, nurglings imperial guard guards men ecc... and then obliterated by fire and countercharge, you need something to remove screens and engage something worth , imho. Korne works great with Tzeentch, horrors and/or flamers in 1st wave clean up screens then backed up by letters.

I know its a little expensive, but I plan on using hounds as screen unit as my characters move up the board.

Hounds are a great screen and are actually well worth their 15 points per model price. When I take 20 they end up doing a lot of work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding the mathhammer: pretty much confirming what I already knew about the units. Hopefully you don't have to redo the entire chart in 2-3 weeks LOL

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.

I agree, they'll be back, after they've been washed in the family-friendly waters of Ponyland. They'll return as duelists and perfectionists rather than perverts and hedonists.

It was not my intention to imply that GW is removing them, simply sterilizing them.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.

I agree, they'll be back, after they've been washed in the family-friendly waters of Ponyland. They'll return as duelists and perfectionists rather than perverts and hedonists.

It was not my intention to imply that GW is removing them, simply sterilizing them.

Probably not, since both the CSM and Daemons books revel in the lewd aspect of the Emp Children and Slaanesh, constantly talking about pleasure, debauchery, and perversion. The Daemon models have already been toned down once, future models may have their boobs covered up, but they're still the same pleasure focused army they've always been. GW isn't going to go back and rewrite books that already double down on the Lord of Pleasure.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?

They're in there and they're not too terrible, but to me they're in a weird place where with the exception of the Fiend of Slannesh Khorne does everything they can do except better.

Unfortunately they seem to be left in the dust as GW tries to casually move away from them without actually having to admit they're moving away form them. So I wouldn't expect any Slannesh love in the near or far future.

That is a shame I was looking forward to the codex as everything felt over costed in the index by a few points.

Rumor is Fulgrim is coming at the forefront of a Slaanesh resurgence in both AoS and 40k later this year. Plus the upcoming March big FAQ may shake up the meta. I would hold off on getting too down in the dumps about it.

I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.

For the record I don’t think they’re trying to remove him. They can’t do that without a huge backlash. But perpetual back burner yeah. I’d say Slannesh is pretty much already there. I mean they removed the herald on chariot and didn’t even bother to give a #Trademarkable name to the Slannesh herald.

Maybe they just decided that Herald was really only an appropriate title for the slaanesh HQ. All the tzeentch heralds aren't really heralding Tzeentch they're just doing weird scheming things. Khorne heralds are really just doing their skullhunting/bloodletting thang. Nurgle heralds are kind of heralding nurgle but they're more tallying and sloppiting and whatever else they're doing.

But if your job is to yell "Slaanesh is coming" every time they are?

That, my friend, is a full time position right there. Someone's gonna have to yell that OFTEN. So often that it's no wonder none of them have any time to maintain their chariots.

Slaanesh is the lore catalyst for the Daughters of Khaine upcoming war scroll for Age of Sigmar. I think that is a good indication that GW isn't getting rid of Slaanesh in near future as they just tend to ignore things until the fan base moves on.

 andysonic1 wrote:
The Daemon models have already been toned down once, future models may have their boobs covered up...

Which is a hilarious level for what is acceptable in a game with flayed humans for clothes, spiked head trophies and Chainswords & drills for weapons.

I'd agree Slaneesh will get their turn. In addition to rage above comments, Daemonettes are still on 25 mm bases whereas bloodletters / pinkies and plaguebearers are on 32 mm now.

I kinda hope they stay on the 25mm though. I can get more into combat that way.

I have 150 metal daemonettes on 25mm resin bases. I am hoping to avoid rebasing.

Huh, that's kind of...odd that they're still being shipped on the smaller bases. Either GW wants them on the smaller bases as a slight buff to them, or they're waiting for a remodeling.

I'm going to get some tabletop adapter base extenders. No too expensive and gets the base size right with minimum effort.

Thanks for your replies, I do hope the fulgrim rumour is true since I have a huge slaanesh daemon army and a sizeable emperor's children army.

For mono Slaanesh, competitive units your only choices are Daemon Prince, the Masque, Herald on Foot or Steed, Seekers, and Daemonettes. The other units are too fragile or too expensive, outside of friendly games. I would even argue that Daemonettes are too expensive compared to the other troop daemons but we have no other option for troops.

For tournaments, mass Seekers is the only list composition that works for me. Most deployment layouts let you get a turn 1 charge, with average advance and charge, rolls. The Masque now buffing foot Heralds, Chariots, and Seekers, gives her a lot of utility combined with the Symphony of Pain psychic power. By mitigating the fragile nature of Slaanesh daemons by getting a -2 to be hit. You don't need to be able to kill vehicles rather just base them to remove their shooting.

As a list, the big problem with Slaanesh daemons is that they are somewhat fast (Eldar and Genestealers are faster) but there isn't enough punch to make up for their fragility. Against MEQ without a Herald, you are just fishing for 5+ wounds.

I've seen the Fiend being super useful as you can't retreat from them.

Fiends for me at least, fall in the bucket of too expensive at 46pts a pop. If they were like 30pts I would use mine group more often. Anyone who knows what they do will just gun them down before they get into charge range.