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The only real problem with power as far as I can see is that some armies have access to units that can pick off charcters easily. While others have plenty of access to such items. This dosen't sound like much, but some armies are almost unpenetrable unless you kill off some charcters.

Sisters so far are make or break based on how the FAQ turns out. If they can use AoFs on vehicles they'll be absolutely amazing, probably still not top tier but definitely super powerful. If not then they'll still be okay, they just won't get any benefit from their army rules. (6++ only good for vehicles/low save models, deny on 1 dice will be so rare people won't even remember it, AoFs will almost never have a good target turn 1-2, character buffs are generally very weak.)

It seems really odd to me that they'd design an army so that everything buffs infantry, but only the vehicles are ever worth taking.

I think that any army that has access to large masses of average infantry (cheap masses) will have the upper hand; also midstrenght weapons spam, be it melee or ranged seems to give an advantage. This puts Tyranids (they are also FAST) and Imperial Guard (how many plasmaguns can you bring at 2000 pts? how many infantry squads? Answer: too many.) as my personal top dogs.

masses allow for wounds out of sheer statistic, dominate the objective games, dictates movement and deepstrikes, absorb enemy firepower...midstrenght weapons at worst wound on 5+, and en masse can ruin anything.

4 squads of guard with a plasmagun each roghly cost like a decent firebase tank. Guess who is better (at everything)?

Darkagl1 wrote:
So far it seems the non codex marines lost way more than they gained (DA/BA/SW). Guard look ok, less based on the Russ though. Nids and orks look solid. Tau I'm not sure of given the large suit nerfs. Eldar are supposed to be kinda bad. Harlequins are supposed to be monsters.

Mostly the same general impressions I had. The Blood Angels section is quite terrible actually and seems like they were really asleep at the wheel with them. A few things of note:

The (AV-13 CC monster) Furioso Dreadnought is now the weakest of the 'elite-ish' dreadnoughts, the DC dread is only just slightly better but still doesn't stack up to say Murderfang etc. Further, without drop-pods short-ranged (frag cannon) and CC dreadnoughts are entirely unusable.

Then the dreadnoughts 'blood talons' ...why would you pay more for MUCH worse item? Too bad every BA player already modeled their dreads this way.

The Sanguinary Guard are crazy expensive once you add the wargear, but why would you EVER take Angelus Bolter (not pistol) when you can get a Plasma Pistol for cheaper that is MUCH better? Too bad every BA player already modeled their SG this way.

Dante is decent - but still easily the worst Chapter Master in the book. The Blood Angels "unique" pistols are both now mediocre (Inferno Pistol) and overpriced, or totally useless (Hand Flamer).

The DC are more expensive than Khorne Berzerkers but are FAR worse.

Finally the army Synergies are built around character bubbles - cool right!?! - except it's the lamest fluff/model characters like Astorath, Sanguinor and Mephiston.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
So far it seems the non codex marines lost way more than they gained (DA/BA/SW). Guard look ok, less based on the Russ though. Nids and orks look solid. Tau I'm not sure of given the large suit nerfs. Eldar are supposed to be kinda bad. Harlequins are supposed to be monsters.

Mostly the same general impressions I had. The Blood Angels section is quite terrible actually and seems like they were really asleep at the wheel with them. A few things of note:

The (AV-13 CC monster) Furioso Dreadnought is now the weakest of the 'elite-ish' dreadnoughts, the DC dread is only just slightly better but still doesn't stack up to say Murderfang etc. Further, without drop-pods short-ranged (frag cannon) and CC dreadnoughts are entirely unusable.

Then the dreadnoughts 'blood talons' ...why would you pay more for MUCH worse item? Too bad every BA player already modeled their dreads this way.

The Sanguinary Guard are crazy expensive once you add the wargear, but why would you EVER take Angelus Bolter (not pistol) when you can get a Plasma Pistol for cheaper that is MUCH better? Too bad every BA player already modeled their SG this way.

Dante is decent - but still easily the worst Chapter Master in the book. The Blood Angels "unique" pistols are both now mediocre (Inferno Pistol) and overpriced, or totally useless (Hand Flamer).

The DC are more expensive than Khorne Berzerkers but are FAR worse.

Finally the army Synergies are built around character bubbles - cool right!?! - except it's the lamest fluff/model characters like Astorath, Sanguinor and Mephiston.

Really? Seems to me like you are not looking at how the game works now. Both dreads look super useful, 8" move, can run and still fire the frag-cannon, and a heavy flamer. So that is an average 19.5" threat range for 3D6 hits at S5+ with AP -1. Comes in at 198 points, so not super cheap but not uncommon for this edition So turn 1 Move and advance, pop-smoke to get -1 to hit. Looks pretty good to me. Especially if you drop in Assault marines as a threat closer than the dread, or have other vehicles, or multiple dreads. If you want straight assault then yeah the DC dread is better because it has black rage, and a 6" consolidation which can go into new units. And them being worse than a unique dread for a bit cheaper points than that model makes sense to me.

Baal Preds are super good.

Deathcompany are faster and more durable than Khorne Berzerkers, and have way more options. With Jumppacks they can deepstrike, and also can move over other models, cannot be tarpitted as easily. But yes they can get expensive, but can get a turn 1 charge, Berzerkers are turn 2 at best.

It seems to me like most people are looking at other armies being like, look at what they can do it is broken, but my stuff is crap. I think everything is different and we really have no idea what will be great yet because it is a different game.

Conscripts for IG are the way to go really, that and deep striking scions suicides. Regular Guardsman, Vets, PCS (unless suicide melta/ plasma), tanks, are just meh or bad. Turn 1 Deletion of 4 out 5 squads is a possible reality, especially with Tyranids.

Really, strive for breaking of LoS.

Breng77 wrote:

Really? Seems to me like you are not looking at how the game works now. Both dreads look super useful, 8" move, can run and still fire the frag-cannon, and a heavy flamer. So that is an average 19.5" threat range for 3D6 hits at S5+ with AP -1. Comes in at 198 points, so not super cheap but not uncommon for this edition So turn 1 Move and advance, pop-smoke to get -1 to hit. Looks pretty good to me. Especially if you drop in Assault marines as a threat closer than the dread, or have other vehicles, or multiple dreads. If you want straight assault then yeah the DC dread is better because it has black rage, and a 6" consolidation which can go into new units. And them being worse than a unique dread for a bit cheaper points than that model makes sense to me.

Baal Preds are super good.

Deathcompany are faster and more durable than Khorne Berzerkers, and have way more options. With Jumppacks they can deepstrike, and also can move over other models, cannot be tarpitted as easily. But yes they can get expensive, but can get a turn 1 charge, Berzerkers are turn 2 at best.

It seems to me like most people are looking at other armies being like, look at what they can do it is broken, but my stuff is crap. I think everything is different and we really have no idea what will be great yet because it is a different game.

I don't think that's at all realistic regarding the dreadnoughts. You assume the enemy is unmoving and waiting to be assailed by your slow moving dreads. Regardless please explain what happened with Blood Talons and why you would ever take them?

Baal Preds are good, but not nearly as good as regular predators (which are now a must-take unit).

I'll give you that the DC are certainly more mobile and thus have additional utility, but I don't believe they are costed right at all. Once you add gear and jump packs they are crazy expensive.

Same with Sanguinary Guard, once you add wargear they are REALLY expensive, and again -- why take the stock Angelus Bolter when you can now take a Plasma Pistol that is better and cheaper and can even shoot within 1"?? ...these are a head scratchers I am mostly wondering about... and the Infernus Pistol is overcosted and mediocre, while the Hand Flamer is just not worth taking at all now. There are just things that don't make sense, and make it seem like they got really lazy when it came to BA.

And again... the Synergy lists are built are the lamest BA characters, oh well some people might not care about this.

Dark Angels lost their improved overwatch rules along with their re-roll-able Jink save cheesiness. They didn't really get anything in return, so they've been toned down quite a bit. The only thing they really have going for them over vanilla SM is that their terminator squads can mix weapon types, and Black Knights as a special unit. On the other hand, Black Knights are a pretty good all-around unit for their price - for my money they're better than terminators every day. 50 ppm with assault 2 plasma guns, a decent CC weapon, T5 W2 and a 14" move.

I still think the right list could be pretty competitive with DA, but they are definitely just a step above vanilla SM if that.

The Blood Angels also lost their old "Chapter tactics", I realize they weren't called that - And their FAST rhinos/razorbacks/vindicators etc etc... but all of that I am totally fine losing for the sake of balance and simplicity...

It's the stuff I listed prior that just doesn't make any sense, some real head scratchers in that list.

 Luciferian wrote:
Dark Angels lost their improved overwatch rules along with their re-roll-able Jink save cheesiness. They didn't really get anything in return, so they've been toned down quite a bit. The only thing they really have going for them over vanilla SM is that their terminator squads can mix weapon types, and Black Knights as a special unit. On the other hand, Black Knights are a pretty good all-around unit for their price - for my money they're better than terminators every day. 50 ppm with assault 2 plasma guns, a decent CC weapon, T5 W2 and a 14" move.

I still think the right list could be pretty competitive with DA, but they are definitely just a step above vanilla SM if that.

DA terminators are alot cheaper then before as well.

Big winners of this edition to me are the 3 horde armies; guard, tyranids, and orks. All have cheap and numerous firepower and assault options and can fill out org charts easily for command point spam.

Eldar, tau, and necrons still bully elite armies (read MEQ armies) due to specializing better at speed, firepower, and durability respectfully. All three will have a hard time against the horde armies above.

Marines are the best middle of the road army not being better or worse at anything. Chaos marines are in a similar situation for now. That lack of specialty can hurt in this ruleset if not played well.

Ad mech seems like a loser mostly due to an incomplete army list.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Baal Preds are super good.

Or you could save yourself 42 points and take a Razorback with TLAC which only has 1 wound less, has a transport capacity for 6 models and is a dedicated transport rather than using up an HS slot.

Granted you lose the option to take sponsons but by the time you have added those, you are getting close to the price of 2 Razorbacks. Baals are definitely significantly overpriced IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BAs look like they got hit with the Nerf stick. Dante is OK but overcosted/underpowered compared to many other Chapter masters. DC got nerfed a lot and Sanguinary Guard got jacked up in price. Our short-ranged Dreads suffer from losing access to Pods. We can use the "Adeptus Astartes" keyword to give us access to vanilla SM toys now but frankly it is more like playing Red Marines than Blood Angels.

Space Wolves have not done too badly. Blood Claws can now hit much better and get plenty of attacks. Grey Hunters are also pretty good as they cost 1 point more but can take a free Chainsword for an extra attack in CC. TWC are not quite so Death Starry but are still good and can now be followed by a Wolf Priest on a bike to top-up lost wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldar look like they will be going back to Serpent Spam armies as the Wave Serpent now has more firepower and the energy shield is pretty decent.

Jetbikes and Wraithknights have received a whacking with the nerf bat which was probably needed. Sadly I think thye overdid it with the WK as it is now more expensive than an Imperial Knight and actually worse in most respects for a comparable loadout.

Sadly Dire Avengers have suffered a massive and unjustified price hike. At 17 points they now cost 4 points more than Marines despite having -1S -1T, 1 worse armour and 6" shorter range. I have absolutely no idea why the Dire Catapult has been costed at 7 points when most other basic guns are 0 points. :(

 Traditio wrote:
Most of you are probably familiar with most of the armies at this point.

Actually, no. The FLGS I frequent is keeping their pre-release copy under wraps until sometime next week. The "local" GW store is about an hour away and in a sketchy part of the city, so I don't go there. Anything I've seen about 8th has come from the official Warhammer Community Page, or the bad, scanned or blurry picture of others taken of the new rules and Indexes.

GW has sent indices to the FLGSs and GW shops for people to preview them.

Yes, and no. Yes, it has happened. No, not all FLGS's immediately made them available for people to look at. My LGS said they were given a display date of June 9th, and they are sticking to it.

So we all should have a decent idea of what the new rules look like, including what the power levels of the armies are.

Not even close. Until I have the books in hand and pour over them for a week plus, AND have several games under my belt, THEN I MIGHT be able to make some semi-speculative guesses about what is good, and what isn't. Until then, it's all opinion, speculation, and uninformed gak

What are your opinions on power levels?

They are all gak, that shift and change depending on what the latest codex that was released, or who won some tournament somewhere. Local meta's have far more influence on this than people realize.

If you are referring to the alternate method of force selection, I have no idea, and won't until I have the full rules in hand, have read them, and played some games.

Tyrannids strike me as the new top-tier army. They're insanely fast, hit like bricks, have excellent shooting, and have excellent army synergy. Taken together, the other armies don't seem as good.

Haven't seen their rules, so have no opinion on how "good" they may be. Based on my experience with 40K since Rogue Trader, and especially after 3rd edition, which is the closest analogous release to 8th, is that as soon as the first codex is released (rumored to be Codex: Space Marines), all the other armies will fall far, far below the Space Marines in performance. The next codex after that will be on par with the Space Marines, or even a little better, and the other armies will fall even farther behind. Three years from now, there will still be an army waiting for an update that will never come, and then 9th edition will be announced...

Right now, there might be a couple people that have managed to get the sneak peak stuff and read it, but for everyone else, it's been rumors, blurry photo's, bad scans, and rampant speculation. Maybe repost this thread in late July after everyone has had a chance to read the rules and play some games.

Uhh "blurry photo's, bad scans" ...actually the stuff that's being going around the internet for like a week now has been very legible - full rules leaks at that.

Necrons translated fairly well to 8th ed, both of our main gimmicks (RP and Gauss) are changed but still fairly potent. Our lack of weapon variety is a bit of a drag, we can't sneak heavy weapons onto the field in our troop choices like marines, so we have to be very conscious of that lack when building lists. Our melee feels a little weaker, mostly because they didn't change much while so many other melee units got buffed.

I haven't spent as much time on other armies, but necrons seem in line with my dark angels. DA are a bit better at taking out units with high toughness, but the necrons are head and shoulders better at taking out MEQ. I haven't felt out matched in any of my games yet, but none of them were cakewalks ethier.

Bad match ups
Only one really, I'm a little nervous about facing tyranids, our melee isn't what it used to be, and the big bugs are going to be a pain in the rear to kill. I won't be able to contest their board presence because I'll be running form their blobs. My tentative plan is to grind them for a few turns while keeping my range, and then hopefully close into a short range fire fight where necrons excel. Not a great plan sadly given how fast tyranids are.

Good match ups
Any MEQ will have an uphill fight against Crons, the amount of AP shots we can throw out is silly, and we are tougher than they are. My plan with them is simple, be aggressive, bring the fight to them as quickly as possible, hit them off of objectives, and basically bully them.

 Traditio wrote:
My impression of IG so far is that they've been toned down substantially.

IG is all but toned down. I don't think it's even possible to be more toned down than what they were in 7th.

For one, they can shut down almost all melee by utilizing one specific unit in high volume. Tempestus squads with plasmaguns and Tempestus Primes, and Harker behind a gunline are absolutely powerful.

Those ones are free.

GKs are in a strange place. You technically want to put the cheapest units on the board to get the most casts of smite.

In the case of fighting horde armies. You want to use your stormravens to stay in the air as long as possible, doing as much damage to your opponent as possible. You want to use your NDK to target whatever vehicle/monster can take down your stormravens.

 buddha wrote:
Big winners of this edition to me are the 3 horde armies; guard, tyranids, and orks. All have cheap and numerous firepower and assault options and can fill out org charts easily for command point spam.

Eldar, tau, and necrons still bully elite armies (read MEQ armies) due to specializing better at speed, firepower, and durability respectfully. All three will have a hard time against the horde armies above.

Marines are the best middle of the road army not being better or worse at anything. Chaos marines are in a similar situation for now. That lack of specialty can hurt in this ruleset if not played well.

Ad mech seems like a loser mostly due to an incomplete army list.

Guard didn't win much at all. Their tanks are near to worthless for cost, save for the Punisher. Regular Guard squads can't blob and can get deleted quicker that you can say "Bye". Vets are overpriced units for what Scions can do and with deep striking. They just do it better, but which can be easily countered by melee hordes. PCS is just a suicide squad.

Conscripts and Scions are the big winners, along with the Taurox Prime, Mortar and other Artillery. Flamers are a possible go to for defense and attack. Orders being instant was good as well. Ratlings also may be viable.

However, all this matter little for the possibilty of turn 1 deletion. Melee on turn 1 against Orks or Tyranids.... you can only get so much survival from conscripts after the commissar goes.

so observations and rebuttals to points so far.

on tyranids. they are quite powerful one of our club players runs them and boy did they get a well needed boost. that said they are not invincible and you need to keep units separated so they cannot assault and pile into a new combat. Tyranids are much more powerful on a 4x4 board than a 6x4 same for orks. the solution is having fast units splitting them up. have a 12 inch move tank? zip it up full movement empty sand all vehicles and unit so the same. stay at your back board edge with some units and clump models so they are maximum distance apart. if the tyranids or orks get in combat move other units away even if they might not win the next turn so they have to move and charge again where you could be out of range or force a choice attack one unit not but then that unit will get away 2 more turns.

on blood angels. our blood angels player is having a blast. their blender dreds (what i will always call them) are super threatening and fast. in kill points games a lot of blood angels stuff is not super great but for objective games they get where they need to be and are threatening enough that players have to stay away.

sanguinary guard i have not seen yet but will be bringing them on myself in a few days love the models have 25 with dante

 Gunzhard wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Really? Seems to me like you are not looking at how the game works now. Both dreads look super useful, 8" move, can run and still fire the frag-cannon, and a heavy flamer. So that is an average 19.5" threat range for 3D6 hits at S5+ with AP -1. Comes in at 198 points, so not super cheap but not uncommon for this edition So turn 1 Move and advance, pop-smoke to get -1 to hit. Looks pretty good to me. Especially if you drop in Assault marines as a threat closer than the dread, or have other vehicles, or multiple dreads. If you want straight assault then yeah the DC dread is better because it has black rage, and a 6" consolidation which can go into new units. And them being worse than a unique dread for a bit cheaper points than that model makes sense to me.

Baal Preds are super good.

Deathcompany are faster and more durable than Khorne Berzerkers, and have way more options. With Jumppacks they can deepstrike, and also can move over other models, cannot be tarpitted as easily. But yes they can get expensive, but can get a turn 1 charge, Berzerkers are turn 2 at best.

It seems to me like most people are looking at other armies being like, look at what they can do it is broken, but my stuff is crap. I think everything is different and we really have no idea what will be great yet because it is a different game.

I don't think that's at all realistic regarding the dreadnoughts. You assume the enemy is unmoving and waiting to be assailed by your slow moving dreads. Regardless please explain what happened with Blood Talons and why you would ever take them?

Baal Preds are good, but not nearly as good as regular predators (which are now a must-take unit).

I'll give you that the DC are certainly more mobile and thus have additional utility, but I don't believe they are costed right at all. Once you add gear and jump packs they are crazy expensive.

Same with Sanguinary Guard, once you add wargear they are REALLY expensive, and again -- why take the stock Angelus Bolter when you can now take a Plasma Pistol that is better and cheaper and can even shoot within 1"?? ...these are a head scratchers I am mostly wondering about... and the Infernus Pistol is overcosted and mediocre, while the Hand Flamer is just not worth taking at all now. There are just things that don't make sense, and make it seem like they got really lazy when it came to BA.

And again... the Synergy lists are built are the lamest BA characters, oh well some people might not care about this.

When did 8+D6" become slow. Your dreads are averaging 11.5" of movement each turn. Most things move 6 or less especially if they want to shoot.

Baal Pred vs standard pred I think depends on the target. Against Hordes the Baal is way better. (18 Shots). Against vehicles or monsters the Standard is better with a lascannon load out. The Baal is also cheaper 157 vs 202.

DC can be super expensive but 10 for 200 points with jump packs isn't too bad, then add maybe 1 or 2 special weapons.



Blood talons are way more swingy than Fists, I think you take them if you are banking on rolling high. I think GW is overrating the value of the D6 damage vs Straight 3 damage.


Sanguinary guard, yeah I'm not sure why you take the angelus boltgun really, that was bad pointing on their behalf, I guess you can advance and shoot, but with only 12" range it doesn't really help, so you would never take it. I guess against T4 hordes it is slightly better because you get twice the shots. I think the other pistols are expensive because GW is overrating their use in combat. I guess Infernus pistols in combat with a vehicle would be very good if they were cheap. If they were say 7 points like a plasma pistol, then things like sanguinary guard with fists and inferno pistols would murder vehicles super easy.

The character thing is a non-issue as it is up to personal preference, and you could always model your own counts as guy.

It is not just BA though where there are no duh options



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Baal Preds are super good.

Or you could save yourself 42 points and take a Razorback with TLAC which only has 1 wound less, has a transport capacity for 6 models and is a dedicated transport rather than using up an HS slot.

Granted you lose the option to take sponsons but by the time you have added those, you are getting close to the price of 2 Razorbacks. Baals are definitely significantly overpriced IMHO.


quote]

You also need to buy a squad in order to take them, so they don't end up cheaper unless you already wanted that squad. They are also slower.

BA aren't that bad. Maybe some of the other chapters are a little better, but I don't know.

Jump packs are great in 8th ed I think. We can put jump packs on our command squads, which puts deep striking melta back on the table.

Frag cannons are not useless, they aren't just point and click. In fact, even if deep striking were not limited to > 9", the 100 pt price tag on pods would make be balk anyway. Frag dreads can ride Stormravens, or act as a screening unit and the be sheriff against opposing deep strikers.

DC are pointed fine, especially when you consider they don't need a transport. Yes, they are weaker than berzerkers, but they are much faster and again don't rely on a transport.

Maybe some units will have to be recosted, but so far, I'm thinking 8th is a win for BA, especially against Eldar and Tau.

After a couple of games with my Tyranids I'll say they're a lot better. However we now live and die by Synapse more then ever. Add in that venomthropes and Zoentropes got a lot more expensive on a per unit basis and it means that we definitely have a breaking point. And that's fine, it's how they should play. Expect to see a lot more warriors hitting the field to provide Synapse.

 Gloomfang wrote:
After a couple of games with my Tyranids I'll say they're a lot better. However we now live and die by Synapse more then ever. Add in that venomthropes and Zoentropes got a lot more expensive on a per unit basis and it means that we definitely have a breaking point. And that's fine, it's how they should play. Expect to see a lot more warriors hitting the field to provide Synapse.

I hope so I want to see varied tyranid lists using all their different models.

Breng77 wrote:

When did 8+D6" become slow. Your dreads are averaging 11.5" of movement each turn. Most things move 6 or less especially if they want to shoot.

Baal Pred vs standard pred I think depends on the target. Against Hordes the Baal is way better. (18 Shots). Against vehicles or monsters the Standard is better with a lascannon load out. The Baal is also cheaper 157 vs 202.

DC can be super expensive but 10 for 200 points with jump packs isn't too bad, then add maybe 1 or 2 special weapons.



Blood talons are way more swingy than Fists, I think you take them if you are banking on rolling high. I think GW is overrating the value of the D6 damage vs Straight 3 damage.


Sanguinary guard, yeah I'm not sure why you take the angelus boltgun really, that was bad pointing on their behalf, I guess you can advance and shoot, but with only 12" range it doesn't really help, so you would never take it. I guess against T4 hordes it is slightly better because you get twice the shots. I think the other pistols are expensive because GW is overrating their use in combat. I guess Infernus pistols in combat with a vehicle would be very good if they were cheap. If they were say 7 points like a plasma pistol, then things like sanguinary guard with fists and inferno pistols would murder vehicles super easy.

The character thing is a non-issue as it is up to personal preference, and you could always model your own counts as guy.

It is not just BA though where there are no duh options

The dread movements are slightly greater (only 2 inches) than they were in 7th if you also ran as you've included... but that still means a late game at best, possible, assault - with several turns of eating face. The Furioso used to be AV13 at least, like the IronClad... the IronClad is now T8 though and Furioso is T7. You are really overestimating a short-ranged / CC dread marching across the table, it has never been a good option. Further, now heavy weapon teams/units can still move and shoot better than ever before.

For the Blood Talons, you also lose the re-roll you get with the Fists.

The DC, yeah you are not wrong, they don't look terrible, but they are not what they used to be for sure, and don't hit as hard in CC as previously-comparable units. Anyway, I can live with this...

The Sanguinary Guard were overpriced last edition, they went up in cost and yeah all the "Blood Angel Pistols" [Angelus (well they're not pistols), Hand Flamer, Infernus] are just totally not worth it for the points.

The character thing, I don't hate character bubbles, it's just they picked the lamest characters - true I could make my own count-as but still. Dante is supposedly the oldest living SM yet he is the weakest of the Chapter Masters in the book, while emo-dracula Astorath is must-take unit now.

The Baal predator is highly situational unlike the regular Pred. Having played BA since 2nd edition, the only time the short ranged Baal Predator was ever really useful was when it had Outflank or facing hoards. Otherwise, unless you're bringing a lot of other armour, which is not necessarily a BA style list - it's dead before taking a shot. This edition without Rear-armour etc, it might survive to get some shots in ...ok great - while a regular Predator OTOH is shooting and being useful all game. Baal isn't bad - the regular Predator is just much much better.

 Galas wrote:
Like half of the girls in my club play Tyranids. They seem strong, but totally killable.

you mean nids, right?

 koooaei wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Like half of the girls in my club play Tyranids. They seem strong, but totally killable.

you mean nids, right?

Ha

 Gunzhard wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

When did 8+D6" become slow. Your dreads are averaging 11.5" of movement each turn. Most things move 6 or less especially if they want to shoot.

Baal Pred vs standard pred I think depends on the target. Against Hordes the Baal is way better. (18 Shots). Against vehicles or monsters the Standard is better with a lascannon load out. The Baal is also cheaper 157 vs 202.

DC can be super expensive but 10 for 200 points with jump packs isn't too bad, then add maybe 1 or 2 special weapons.



Blood talons are way more swingy than Fists, I think you take them if you are banking on rolling high. I think GW is overrating the value of the D6 damage vs Straight 3 damage.


Sanguinary guard, yeah I'm not sure why you take the angelus boltgun really, that was bad pointing on their behalf, I guess you can advance and shoot, but with only 12" range it doesn't really help, so you would never take it. I guess against T4 hordes it is slightly better because you get twice the shots. I think the other pistols are expensive because GW is overrating their use in combat. I guess Infernus pistols in combat with a vehicle would be very good if they were cheap. If they were say 7 points like a plasma pistol, then things like sanguinary guard with fists and inferno pistols would murder vehicles super easy.

The character thing is a non-issue as it is up to personal preference, and you could always model your own counts as guy.

It is not just BA though where there are no duh options

The dread movements are slightly greater (only 2 inches) than they were in 7th if you also ran as you've included... but that still means a late game at best, possible, assault - with several turns of eating face. The Furioso used to be AV13 at least, like the IronClad... the IronClad is now T8 though and Furioso is T7. You are really overestimating a short-ranged / CC dread marching across the table, it has never been a good option. Further, now heavy weapon teams/units can still move and shoot better than ever before.

For the Blood Talons, you also lose the re-roll you get with the Fists.

The DC, yeah you are not wrong, they don't look terrible, but they are not what they used to be for sure, and don't hit as hard in CC as previously-comparable units. Anyway, I can live with this...

The Sanguinary Guard were overpriced last edition, they went up in cost and yeah all the "Blood Angel Pistols" [Angelus (well they're not pistols), Hand Flamer, Infernus] are just totally not worth it for the points.

The character thing, I don't hate character bubbles, it's just they picked the lamest characters - true I could make my own count-as but still. Dante is supposedly the oldest living SM yet he is the weakest of the Chapter Masters in the book, while emo-dracula Astorath is must-take unit now.

The Baal predator is highly situational unlike the regular Pred. Having played BA since 2nd edition, the only time the short ranged Baal Predator was ever really useful was when it had Outflank or facing hoards. Otherwise, unless you're bringing a lot of other armour, which is not necessarily a BA style list - it's dead before taking a shot. This edition without Rear-armour etc, it might survive to get some shots in ...ok great - while a regular Predator OTOH is shooting and being useful all game. Baal isn't bad - the regular Predator is just much much better.

The dreads can now run and shoot with their weapons, so that makes a pretty big difference in speed, also 3 deployments now have you within 18" of the enemy deployment zone, this means you can get there in 2 turns. With 8" range shooting and running, each turn has you at ~17" threat range. By turn 2 you are 8+8+8 +2D6 for range. So 31" threat range which is pretty good. Also remember now you can re-roll your run if desired. I'm not saying they are the best ever, but they are not bad at all. Using them will require providing other threats to your opponent.

Maybe it is just the ork player in me, the Baal scares me way more than the standard pred. It is not always useful, so it is meta dependent, in an infantry heavy meta the regular pred is strictly worse, in a meta with lots of multiple wound high T models it is better. Each has a role.

I think Dante is ok, his extra speed over all the other Chapter masters should not be over looked, nor should his deployment options with deepstrike. Having a 12" move with a re-roll bubble makes him very flexible. He is very mobile and has more attacks than any other CM. He is just expensive.

Wait - dreadnoughts can run(advance) and still shoot/pop-smoke and/or charge? ...where did I miss this? I'm not sure that's right.

Yeah the Baal Pred is nice against Orks.

 koooaei wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Like half of the girls in my club play Tyranids. They seem strong, but totally killable.

you mean nids, right?

Baal preds are highly incentivized to stay around 24" away. This makes them far less likely to be turned off by assault.