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Unlike 7th, flyers do not counter other flyers particularly well unless they have something like the Stormhawk's "Interceptor" special rule.

Comely wrote:

Expected wounds vs storm talon
Crimson Hunter 2 pulse cannon shots 2*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6)*3=1.67 + 2 Brightlances 2*(1/2)*(2/3)*3.5=2.333 or about 4 wounds to a flyer on average. Also its worth noting that guide doesnt help you much because you reroll before modifiers so you only get to reroll 1s

Hemlock 2 heavy dscythe - 2*2*(2/3)*2 = 5.33

So math wise the hemlock is better at killing flyers because of the auto hit but it is also almost 40 more points and much lower range. The Hemlock does also have smite and a negative aura though which will probably be worth the point change. If the Hunter is an exarch or has guide its expected wounds will go up by about .67

So yeah the hemlock is at least as good if not better at killing flyers

I don't think you're accounting for the Hunter re-rolling wounds. That bumps the Hunter up to 5.33 wounds too. The Hemlock's Smite still puts it over the top but I don't think the choice is obvious given the Hemlock's much shorter range.

Marsyas wrote:So is it just me or are Crimson Hunters bad at their jobs?
This is supposed to be our dedicated AA, right? But against other aircraft, it's hitting on 4s most of the time. Seems like the Hemlock is just better in every way, even at the job that the Crimson Hunter is supposedly specifically designed to perform.

Yeah pretty much. I've actually never found it useful for killing flyers. One of my coolest models but its never actually been effective at it's job. 8th edition has not that changed that. It's nice that you could use a command point to try to get more damage on a bright lance hit. It just doesn't deal enough damage to one shot an enemy flyer. In my experience you have to one shot them as the Crimson Hunter is always high on the target priority list for some reason.

Comely wrote:

 Marsyas wrote:

 Temujin wrote:
Crimson Hunters have bs2+, way more range, and reroll wounds vs flyers. They're both good.

Right. But Crimson Hunters must move at least 20" each turn. Which means they hit on 3+, because their weapons are Heavy. And most other aircraft are going to be benefiting from Hard to Hit, which means they hit on 4+. And suddenly it's not looking quite so rosy, even when you can reroll wounds.

. Also its worth noting that guide doesnt help you much because you reroll before modifiers so you only get to reroll 1s

I'm not sure where this comes from but that's totally wrong. Guide allows you to re-roll failed to hit rolls. The only time modifiers affect re-rolls is when they specify a particular number on the die. For instance having a re-roll ones while also having a minus one to hit. You still reroll the ones, not the twos. Regardless of modifiers, guide gives the ability to reroll hits. If you don't hit you re-roll. There's nothing else there.

 Silent_Tempest wrote:

I'm not sure where this comes from but that's totally wrong. Guide allows you to re-roll failed to hit rolls. The only time modifiers affect re-rolls is when they specify a particular number on the die. For instance having a re-roll ones while also having a minus one to hit. You still reroll the ones, not the twos. Regardless of modifiers, guide gives the ability to reroll hits. If you don't hit you re-roll. There's nothing else there.

Guide allows you to re-roll failed hit rolls. The Designers' Commentary is explicit that re-rolls always happen before modifiers. They do not specifically address abilities that allow re-rolling of failures rather than of a specific number, and this is probably worth asking them about, but everyone else has been taking this to mean that re-roll failure abilities work based on the unmodified BS.

 Silent_Tempest wrote:

Marsyas wrote:So is it just me or are Crimson Hunters bad at their jobs?
This is supposed to be our dedicated AA, right? But against other aircraft, it's hitting on 4s most of the time. Seems like the Hemlock is just better in every way, even at the job that the Crimson Hunter is supposedly specifically designed to perform.

Yeah pretty much. I've actually never found it useful for killing flyers. One of my coolest models but its never actually been effective at it's job. 8th edition has not that changed that. It's nice that you could use a command point to try to get more damage on a bright lance hit. It just doesn't deal enough damage to one shot an enemy flyer. In my experience you have to one shot them as the Crimson Hunter is always high on the target priority list for some reason.

Comely wrote:

 Marsyas wrote:

 Temujin wrote:
Crimson Hunters have bs2+, way more range, and reroll wounds vs flyers. They're both good.

Right. But Crimson Hunters must move at least 20" each turn. Which means they hit on 3+, because their weapons are Heavy. And most other aircraft are going to be benefiting from Hard to Hit, which means they hit on 4+. And suddenly it's not looking quite so rosy, even when you can reroll wounds.

. Also its worth noting that guide doesnt help you much because you reroll before modifiers so you only get to reroll 1s

I'm not sure where this comes from but that's totally wrong. Guide allows you to re-roll failed to hit rolls. The only time modifiers affect re-rolls is when they specify a particular number on the die. For instance having a re-roll ones while also having a minus one to hit. You still reroll the ones, not the twos. Regardless of modifiers, guide gives the ability to reroll hits. If you don't hit you re-roll. There's nothing else there.

Rerolls are always before modifiers.
Assuming BS2+, -1 to hit, and an ability to reroll misses. You roll a 2. Before modifiers, a 2 is not a miss, so you can't reroll it. However, after you apply the modifier, the 2 becomes a 1, and is therefore a miss. So guide is indeed pretty bad on a BS2+ model with penalties to hit.

How does everyone feel about model-mass in 8th Ed for Eldar?

At my area we usually play 1k to 1.5k matches.

At 1k I'm planning on running 20 Guardians, 2 wave serpents, 2 Hemlocks.

At 1.5k I have 30 Guards, 3 wave serpents, and 2 hemlocks.

The thing I'm most scared about is, will this be enough model mass at these points ranges? Am I sinking too many points into Hemlocks?

Rerolls are always before modifiers.
Assuming BS2+, -1 to hit, and an ability to reroll misses. You roll a 2. Before modifiers, a 2 is not a miss, so you can't reroll it. However, after you apply the modifier, the 2 becomes a 1, and is therefore a miss. So guide is indeed pretty bad on a BS2+ model with penalties to hit.

That's completely asinine, but what can one noble aspect warrior do against such GW designer's lunacy.

Kouzuki wrote:

Spoiler:

How does everyone feel about model-mass in 8th Ed for Eldar?

At my area we usually play 1k to 1.5k matches.

At 1k I'm planning on running 20 Guardians, 2 wave serpents, 2 Hemlocks.

At 1.5k I have 30 Guards, 3 wave serpents, and 2 hemlocks.

The thing I'm most scared about is, will this be enough model mass at these points ranges? Am I sinking too many points into Hemlocks?

I think its ok for probably our average game. you have the bodies and shots to put out. The serps can be equipped with your AT weapons and Hemlocks fill a few roles. Just experiment. We can talk about what the best 'net' list is all day long, but if you take the best list and give it to 2 people to use, one guy might lose every game and the other might not. I have found 8th more reliant on the general than 7th in that regard.

What HQ choices do you have? I would consider a farseer (walking) or 2-3 warlocks. Guardians with conceal have a decent save, and better still if in cover.

Shadenuat wrote:

Spoiler:

Rerolls are always before modifiers.
Assuming BS2+, -1 to hit, and an ability to reroll misses. You roll a 2. Before modifiers, a 2 is not a miss, so you can't reroll it. However, after you apply the modifier, the 2 becomes a 1, and is therefore a miss. So guide is indeed pretty bad on a BS2+ model with penalties to hit.

That's completely asinine, but what can one noble aspect warrior do against such GW designer's [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express yourself. - Alpharius].

Harsh man. So let's think about it. d6 system right, so you have limits. The reason you reroll before modifiers is to prevent the overall system becoming too powerful. You still benefit from the reroll, but the defensive unit still benefits from their special rule as well.. otherwise, its almost negligible that the defensive unit even had any special rules. Does this make some odd situations? (like your crimson hunter example only being able to reroll 1s) Absolutely. But both units still benefit for having their special rules and that is what the system was designed to do.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Karhedron wrote:
Unlike 7th, flyers do not counter other flyers particularly well unless they have something like the Stormhawk's "Interceptor" special rule.

Yeah flyer on flyer combat can be rough. But if you look across the entire range of other indexes, the crimson hunter albeit not the best flyer is still one of the best AA flyers. Many flyers are hitting others on 5+ or worse!

I have some random questions about Autarch loadouts.

1) I assume I can take a fusion pistol and a fusion gun- this seems fine.

2) In the Autarch wargear list some weapons are noted with "a model can only carry one of these weapons" so I can only take one fusion gun, but can I take a fusion gun and a reaper launcher?

Three S8 D6 damage shots hitting on 2's rerolled is not bad.

I think the most accurate flyer vs. others is Nightwing while ramming into enemy flyer to activate both CTM and Extended Wings - although it's armanent could have been better.

Our best anti air are Dark Reapers with Yvraine.

1) I assume I can take a fusion pistol and a fusion gun- this seems fine.

Yeah but a model can only either shoot all of it's weapon(s) or all of it's pistols - not together.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
1) I assume I can take a fusion pistol and a fusion gun- this seems fine.

Yes

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
2) In the Autarch wargear list some weapons are noted with "a model can only carry one of these weapons" so I can only take one fusion gun, but can I take a fusion gun and a reaper launcher?

No. Fusion gun, reaper and lasblaster are all marked with "you may only take one of this weapon". You can take a fusion pistol instead of shurikan .. and then 2 additional weapons from the autarch list... for example.. Reaper Launcher and avenger catapult. Which is kinda funny to have a guy jumping around with three guns.

Thanks.

Forgot that about pistols! Damn.

So he is only getting one S8 shot.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Thanks.

Forgot that about pistols! Damn.

So he is only getting one S8 shot.

Yeah unfortunately so. I have found Autarchs to be a little meh so far. I am hoping the relics and more custom warlord traits from the Codex books will help resolve that. The reroll 1s bubble is ok.. but I haven't really found it better than taking warlocks or Farseers. Might just be me Anyone else having success with them?

I think the reroll 1s will be better than guide if you can effect multiple units.

For 128pts you get an Autarch on a bike with laser lance and fusion gun. up to 6 high strenght high AP multi damage attacks that hit on 2s rerolled. hmm

Edit: you have to pay another 10pts for the twin shuricat so 138pts but he can shoot them as well as the melta and lance.

Similar price to a Farseer, still does some buffing but can put out a lot of hurt by himself. The character rule makes him a little like the old biketarch with rerolled 2+ cover from 6th(?).


I wrote Autarchs off at first but that guy is getting some testing

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Thanks.

Forgot that about pistols! Damn.

So he is only getting one S8 shot.

Yeah unfortunately so. I have found Autarchs to be a little meh so far. I am hoping the relics and more custom warlord traits from the Codex books will help resolve that. The reroll 1s bubble is ok.. but I haven't really found it better than taking warlocks or Farseers. Might just be me Anyone else having success with them?

Seeing as you're only allowed to cast Guide once per turn regardless of how many Farseers you bring, the Autarch bubble is a pretty big deal.

I have had some great luck with my Autarchs. They are there to be better farseers, since the bubble allows multiple units to reroll ones.

Plus with the changes to re-rolls guide kinda got nerfed, so i don't have much faith in it.

He's no Bobby G... but what is.

Sorry that bastard just bothers me so much.

In fairness he shouldn't exist in the game at all outside 30k.

Has anyone got any experience of mirrorswords? I'm not sure whether to use those or just a power sword on my exarch.

pm713 wrote:
Has anyone got any experience of mirrorswords? I'm not sure whether to use those or just a power sword on my exarch.

I honestly haven't understood the point of Banshees ever since they made power swords AP 3 instead of just "ignores armor" however many editions ago. The don't have enough attacks to kill hordes, they don't have enough strength to kill tough enemies, their AP isn't particularly special. They are fast and can thankfully charge out of wave serpents again, but they still need that serpent, and everyone attacking out of transports is fast.

They had a niche as TEQ-killers forever ago, but they haven't been useful for anything at all for a long time, imho.

I just proxy them as Harlequins. I still really like the models

 admironheart wrote:
are swooping hawks better at taking out an assassin than rangers?

They are both incredibly terrible at it. Don't use either option if that's the job you want done.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
You can take a fusion pistol instead of shurikan .. and then 2 additional weapons from the autarch list... for example.. Reaper Launcher and avenger catapult. Which is kinda funny to have a guy jumping around with three guns.

3 guns? I see your 3 and raise you 5: Autarch Skyrunner with laser lance and any other ranged weapon from the Autarch list
He can fire the following:
1 ShurikenlFusion pistol (no thanks) or
1 Sunburst grenade (no thanks) or
His bike's Twin cats, Laser lance & which ever third gun you equipped him with. I personally like the Death Spinner as it synergizes better with the Twin Cats and I really don't want him near targets that need Fusion gunned. It is also much cheaper.
He is my mini-gunboat that goes stays near my Windriders and goes after isolated targets or units that get too close to my Windriders

-

So is everyone on the Howling banshee < Harlequin troupe train?
I feel like there ability to always attack first plus with a warlock making them a total of -2 to hit in the fight phase makes them interesting for protecting ranged units

 Galef wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
You can take a fusion pistol instead of shurikan .. and then 2 additional weapons from the autarch list... for example.. Reaper Launcher and avenger catapult. Which is kinda funny to have a guy jumping around with three guns.

3 guns? I see your 3 and raise you 5: Autarch Skyrunner with laser lance and any other ranged weapon from the Autarch list
He can fire the following:
1 ShurikenlFusion pistol (no thanks) or
1 Sunburst grenade (no thanks) or
His bike's Twin cats, Laser lance & which ever third gun you equipped him with. I personally like the Death Spinner as it synergizes better with the Twin Cats and I really don't what him near targets that need Fusion gunned. It is also much cheaper.
He is my mini-gunboat that goes stays near my Windriders and goes after isolated targets or units that get too close to my Windriders

-

NICE, that is good idea. I am hoping for some sweet relics. I miss my Iyanden Soul Shard for my level up Autarch :(

So have you guys noticed the huge disparity in our power levels and points?

For my ATC team, 2000 point armies, everyone else on my team is at PL100 or higher.

I'm at PL 75.

That is a huge difference. So either our guys are way under costed PL wise, or they're way over costed point wise.

 deathdancer wrote:
So is everyone on the Howling banshee < Harlequin troupe train?
I feel like there ability to always attack first plus with a warlock making them a total of -2 to hit in the fight phase makes them interesting for protecting ranged units

1. They don't always attack first.
2. Warlocks aren't Banshees.
3. How would Banshees protect ranged units?
4. Assuming protecting ranged units with Banshees is a thing (which it isn't), why would you need to spend points on Banshees to accomplish that?

 djones520 wrote:
So have you guys noticed the huge disparity in our power levels and points?

For my ATC team, 2000 point armies, everyone else on my team is at PL100 or higher.

I'm at PL 75.

That is a huge difference. So either our guys are way under costed PL wise, or they're way over costed point wise.

generally speaking it is points wise overcosted. I still think the Dire Avengers having to buy their gun has got to somehow be a misprint or oversight on gw part.... 17 points per model for 3+ 3+ S3 T3 A1 1W 4+ armor w/ 18" 2 shot str 4 ap0 D1 gun is absolutely ludicrous.

a tac marine is 3+ 3+ S4 T4 A1 1W 3+ w/ 24" rapid fire 1 apo D1 weapons.... for 13 points per model

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
So have you guys noticed the huge disparity in our power levels and points?

For my ATC team, 2000 point armies, everyone else on my team is at PL100 or higher.

I'm at PL 75.

That is a huge difference. So either our guys are way under costed PL wise, or they're way over costed point wise.

generally speaking it is points wise overcosted. I still think the Dire Avengers having to buy their gun has got to somehow be a misprint or oversight on gw part.... 17 points per model for 3+ 3+ S3 T3 A1 1W 4+ armor w/ 18" 2 shot str 4 ap0 D1 gun is absolutely ludicrous.

a tac marine is 3+ 3+ S4 T4 A1 1W 3+ w/ 24" rapid fire 1 apo D1 weapons.... for 13 points per model

Dire Avengers are definitely an oversight, but overall 95% of units have a PL equal to the average of their lowest points cost and highest points cost divided by 20, then rounded

Given me an example and I will prove it. I need a unit's lowest cost with standard wargear, and their absolute highest cost without adding models to the unit. Then give my their Power level
Here's an Eldar example:
3 Windriders at their lowest (twin cats) are 90pts. 3 with Scatter lasers (highest cost) are 105
That averages to 97.5 pts. Divide by 20 = 4.875, rounded to 5. 3 Windriders happen to be PL5

Here's a Daemon example:
10 Daemonettes are 90pts (lowest cost) 10 with an Icon and Instrument are 125
Average is 107.5 /20 = 5.375 or PL5

I've run this formula on tons of units and have only found Dire Avengers and Brimstone Horrors to radically deviate (DAs are having lower PL and Brims having much higher PL).
The issue for Eldar is that our average/20 tends to be rounded up. Other units from other armies tend to round down
This seems to create effect of Eldar having a higher PL to points.

@ Djones: I am really curious what your army list consists of. It really should be around 100PL or higher just like your ATC team. Do you take a bunch of Dire Avengers?

-

The 2k Eldar list I played last Sunday was 115 PL, but I'm notoriously stingy on the wargear.

I think my autarch (on bike) might have been my MVP of the game. The buff bubble was huge. I also had a farseer, who was doing the guide/doom thing, but he could only guide one unit a turn. The autarch was routinely buffing 3-5. And when I needed something CC’d to death, he was there with the laser lance.

I might experiment with the gear, as I didn’t invest a lot into him. But I’ll keep him in my lists for the foreseeable future.

 deathdancer wrote:
So is everyone on the Howling banshee < Harlequin troupe train?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420/728164.page#9471750
The banshees are under spoiler tag.

My opinion: at the very least they bring the best eldar battle tank into the army. Clowns give you a tougher Vyper.
I only played 2 games with Banshees so far though, but they brought their points back both times.

On the autarch vs farseer debate and whether autarch reroll 1s bubble is better than guide.

It's kind of a moot point. Guide is probably a farseers weakest tool (though shadow spectres and a couple of other units make it pretty damn good). You are taking the farseer for the ability to take doom and basically guarantee the most important enemy unit dies. All the firepower a autarch brings is almost a wash with the straight up mortal wounds brought by smite as well.

As with any eldar units it depends what you are synergising with as to what the best buff hq is, but doom is one of eldars biggest weapons.

Wyldcarde wrote:
On the autarch vs farseer debate and whether autarch reroll 1s bubble is better than guide.

It's kind of a moot point. Guide is probably a farseers weakest tool (though shadow spectres and a couple of other units make it pretty damn good). You are taking the farseer for the ability to take doom and basically guarantee the most important enemy unit dies. All the firepower a autarch brings is almost a wash with the straight up mortal wounds brought by smite as well.

As with any eldar units it depends what you are synergising with as to what the best buff hq is, but doom is one of eldars biggest weapons.

This. Yesterday I had a Lord of Skulls get warptimed to me, and down my Wraithknight before I could even move. I had one of the most dangerous models in the game, in my lines.

One application of Doom, and it was gone.

I keep the Farseer home with my Dark Reapers to guide them, so the Autarch can advance with the Guardians/Fire Dragons and buff them. It's very synergistic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:


@ Djones: I am really curious what your army list consists of. It really should be around 100PL or higher just like your ATC team. Do you take a bunch of Dire Avengers?

-

So, chalk this whole thing up to Battlescribe being real janky. I "rewrote" the list, and it came up at PL 98 this time.