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Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.

 Redemption wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Where is this from?

The BoW review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y27ulIQVUro

Thank you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sennacherib wrote:
Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.

Your salty tears only fuel us eldar players

Niiru wrote:
I have noticed that another of the new pre-orders is for a "Seer Council" jetbikes set... which seems odd, as warlocks didn't seem to get any changes in the codex, so I am not sure how GW things anyone would want to buy any.

Unless Warlocks on Jetbikes got a reduction? I know Farseer Jetbikes dropped by 29 points... maybe warlocks got a similar drop, and noone mentioned it for some reason.

If the reviews are correct, at the very least twin catapults went down to 5 points. And seeing as one reported the singing spear going down to 4 points, I'm guessing witchblades become free now. So normal Warlocks would then be 35 and Warlock Skyrunners 75 and maybe even lower. We'll have to see.

 Crusaderobr wrote:

Spoiler:

 Korlandril wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Scorpions can deepstrike! Scorpions can deepstrike! That makes them much more viable, they no longer need a serpent!

I havent been this excited about an Eldar codex since 5th.

STARCANNONS ARE BACK AND VIABLE FINALLY. WOOT!

Scorpions have been able to infiltrate or deploy close to the enemy for a long time and they would never have been good in serpents as they could never disembark and charge.

But yes this is an exciting codex and you can be excited about everything else

Infiltrate, yes. set up over 9" away is new for 8th edition. Also says right in the main rulebook they can disembark out of a transport that has not moved, then they can move shoot and charge as normal. So first turn position tank close to flank/ enemy squads you want to attack, second turn they get out and attack, serpent works with scorpions just fine.

Infiltrate was 18" in sight or 12" out of Los... Also past tense indicates I was talking about past editions. Reading comprehension...

Putting them in a Serpent never has and never will be a good idea especially now when they can come in turn 1 to 3 anywhere 9" away. There are a load of units to put in a Serpent before you would even consider this

[spoiler]

I understood you were talking about past editions. Im telling you that Serpent with Scorpions in it was and still is a viable tactic, I even explained how to do it in my previous post. Add a farseer with fortune and doom and they are an excellent unit to come out of a serpent. You can disagree if you want and write it off, but I used the tactic back in 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition with great success.

But their current rule to set up outside 9" is better than a serpent as 1) you dont need to pay for a serpent and 2) a transport is there to stop them getting damaged, they can't get damaged if they aren't on the table in any form

Any reason there is to have a Serpent you are better off Infiltrating them. Maybe in the instance where you want to have a more reliable charge, but if you move your Serpent into place your opponent has a turn to move away from them or fire on the Serpent before you can get out. Sure it may be viable but it may be that it is less point efficient if you take into account a model pays for all the rules it has available to it, not making use of the rule is less point efficient.

Yes, you'd be using a Serpent for a more reliable charge. Deep-striking the Scorpions is exposing yourself to a pretty large chance that they fail to do anything, and then they die easier than tactical Marines. It's much easier to get them into combat with a Serpent. Sure, your opponent could move away as fast as possible but I will happily leave a unit of Scorpions inside a Serpent all game if it means that my opponent is continually moving so that he's about 20" away from me at the end of his movement phase -- Scorpions' average charge can reach something 18" away from your Serpent.

I mean, I doubt they're worth it right now either way, but I tend to think that they're better in a Serpent than out of one as-is.

 sennacherib wrote:
Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.

I assume you're also turning down Chaos games then, as well as Space Marine, Imperial Guard, and any Imperial Soup games. I guess you can still play against Orks though, they're still pretty terrible.

Oh I see you actually play -as- Chaos... Death Guard no less. You'd better start turning down any game you're involved in. Wow, that's going to get real meta real fast.

Niiru wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.

I assume you're also turning down Chaos games then, as well as Space Marine, Imperial Guard, and any Imperial Soup games. I guess you can still play against Orks though, they're still pretty terrible.

Oh I see you actually play -as- Chaos... Death Guard no less. You'd better start turning down any game you're involved in. Wow, that's going to get real meta real fast.

Yeah...I would be very surprised if these changes put eldar past chaos. I'm sure Mortarian will love turning our elves T2 so that bolters wound them on a 2+. Chaos is my main army and is one of the most solid, well-rounded armies out there, as well as having genuinely high end competitive builds. It's full of some of the strongest things in the game (Both primarchs, brimstones, maelific lords) and many damn solid units (cultists, noise marines, zerkers, oblits, havocs, fire raptors, hellturkeys), has excellent and fluffy strategems and a wide variety of playstyles. It's probably the third best force out there after IG and girlyman space marines (or soup between the two).

If I had to estimate, I'd think these changes will put craftworlds right below chaos, maybe on par, certainly not vastly ahead.

The bigger shift I could see in the meta is being a good counter to AM. The sniper heavy nature of what I think will be the main lists provides a real answer to commissars, which means in turn an answer to hordes. Swooping Hawks to lasblaster the hell out of conscript blobs which have lost their morale immunity after rangers put down their commissars, combined with having -3 or -4 to morale? Quite some potential there, as much as anything in the game can have potential against hordes. We also have also have a decent chance to endure the long-range alpha strike, since we can hide away most of what can't get -2 to be hit either in deep strike or in LoS terrain (which won't help against all guard, but will against some). Even guard dakka will cry trying to blow up things only hitting on 6+

Dionysodorus wrote:
Yes, you'd be using a Serpent for a more reliable charge. Deep-striking the Scorpions is exposing yourself to a pretty large chance that they fail to do anything, and then they die easier than tactical Marines. It's much easier to get them into combat with a Serpent. Sure, your opponent could move away as fast as possible but I will happily leave a unit of Scorpions inside a Serpent all game if it means that my opponent is continually moving so that he's about 20" away from me at the end of his movement phase -- Scorpions' average charge can reach something 18" away from your Serpent.

I mean, I doubt they're worth it right now either way, but I tend to think that they're better in a Serpent than out of one as-is.

I have had great success deploying them into terrain for a 2+ save right up near the enemy, it forces your opponent to react to them usually and you want to be picking off weak units with them anyway. They can take a lot of firepower sitting in cover. Drawing and soaking up enemy fire is not failing to do anything. Also having a unit you can deploy in hiding means your opponent has to put down one extra unit before you start putting down too, this is why I always tend to bring at least one Scorpion squad. Now they are 15ppm they are even cheaper and efficient harasser unit.

Also that charge range is over two turns it would be good if it was one.

[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]

 Korlandril wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Yes, you'd be using a Serpent for a more reliable charge. Deep-striking the Scorpions is exposing yourself to a pretty large chance that they fail to do anything, and then they die easier than tactical Marines. It's much easier to get them into combat with a Serpent. Sure, your opponent could move away as fast as possible but I will happily leave a unit of Scorpions inside a Serpent all game if it means that my opponent is continually moving so that he's about 20" away from me at the end of his movement phase -- Scorpions' average charge can reach something 18" away from your Serpent.

I mean, I doubt they're worth it right now either way, but I tend to think that they're better in a Serpent than out of one as-is.

I have had great success deploying them into terrain for a 2+ save right up near the enemy, it forces your opponent to react to them usually and you want to be picking off weak units with them anyway. They can take a lot of firepower sitting in cover. Drawing and soaking up enemy fire is not failing to do anything. Also having a unit you can deploy in hiding means your opponent has to put down one extra unit before you start putting down too, this is why I always tend to bring at least one Scorpion squad. Now they are 15ppm they are even cheaper and efficient harasser unit.

Also that charge range is over two turns it would be good if it was one.

I feel like if you've got Scorpions sitting in cover in a place where your opponent can't just move one unit back a little bit and then ignore them unless they want to leave cover, they're going to be pretty easy to deal with. Yeah, they do well against bolters. But even in cover, current 15 point Scorpions are only a little more durable per point vs lasguns than are tactical Marines outside of cover. And then they're much more vulnerable than Guardsmen outside of cover to things like heavy bolters and assault cannons, which are likely to be close by -- in general almost everything that you'd ordinarily be happy shooting at horde units is about as good or better against Scorpions in cover, and then you're also really happy to shoot at them with stuff you'd ordinarily throw at MEQs. Like, unbuffed Guardians expect to make back about half their points in a single volley against 15 point Scorpions in cover. They're also very vulnerable to CC. Mandiblasters do very little if they're not the chargers, and then of course they don't benefit from cover in this case. A counter-assault unit is going to tear them apart.

In 1 turn, an Eldar infantry model can disembark with the front of its base 4" from a Serpent, then move 7", then average a 7" charge, which is an 18" average range. It is really not difficult to get a pretty safe charge out of a Serpent unless your opponent goes to great lengths to stop you.

I think cross-faction comparisons are really useful in general to try to put things in context. An Assault Marine with a jump pack is 16 points. They give up Mandiblasters, have slightly worse pistols, and hit slightly worse against units entirely in cover, but move 12" and are signficantly more durable against small arms. No one uses them this way. They're regarded as being pretty bad, even though they appear to be better than Scorpions at the job you're saying you like Scorpions for.

They got a stratagem to make Seer council smite act normal.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They got a stratagem to make Seer council smite act normal.

Do they? I just looked through, and I found a warlock conclave one that costs 1CP to double the range of a manifested power... but it would still just be an 18" range baby smite. Unless you have more than 7 warlocks in the conclave, then it would be a decent smite. But 1CP and 7+ warlocks (so 300 odd points) just for one decent smite doesn't seem that great, considering you can get the same by buying a spiritseer for 45 points and no CP's.

Singing spears for 4 points are seeming like a better weapon than warlocks attempting smite.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.

[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]

Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever

stratigo wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.

[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]

Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever

Discouraging/reducing the effectiveness of gunlines doesn't seem bad for the meta.

stratigo wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.

[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]

Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever

Well, the same could easily be said for an army that turns up with 120 conscripts. And guess what, it -was- meta defining. Still is.

A lot of the Eldar units you're worried about only have a 12-18" range on weapons, so they'll be moving close anyway. And they're so fragile if you get in range you can just shoot them off the board.

You're Chaos, so you can drop in Obliterators within 12" and shoot a unit off the board each turn. Or use your own infiltration stratagem to put berserkers in charge range, and remove another unit off the table each turn. And all your units also get -1 to hit.

Alaitoc is probably the best of the traits, but to get -2 on every unit you'd have to bring a lot of warlocks or spiritseers, now that conceal isn't an aura but is instead just a single unit buff.

xmbk wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.

[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]

Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever

Discouraging/reducing the effectiveness of gunlines doesn't seem bad for the meta.

And there comes the orks who don't give a gak for the minus beyond 1, going to close the gap and Gank you in melee.

I

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.

[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]

Yes! Yes! 1000x Yes!

Niiru wrote:

Alaitoc is probably the best of the traits, but to get -2 on every unit you'd have to bring a lot of warlocks or spiritseers, now that conceal isn't an aura but is instead just a single unit buff.

Really? warp spiders, shadow spectres, rangers, hemlocks, crimson hunters, phoenix, nightwings, hornets, lynx, any vehicle with vectored engines all have -1 to hit built in before alaitoc and conceal.

With warp spiders now having deep strike and webway portal, having a unit of warp spiders, swooping hawks and shadow spectres deep striking to a hemlock that has jetted backfield could be super nasty. With a second wave in wave serpents backed up by rangers and fire prisms would be a tough nut to crack.

Wyldcarde wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Alaitoc is probably the best of the traits, but to get -2 on every unit you'd have to bring a lot of warlocks or spiritseers, now that conceal isn't an aura but is instead just a single unit buff.

Really? warp spiders, shadow spectres, rangers, hemlocks, crimson hunters, phoenix, nightwings, hornets, lynx, any vehicle with vectored engines all have -1 to hit built in before alaitoc and conceal.

With warp spiders now having deep strike and webway portal, having a unit of warp spiders, swooping hawks and shadow spectres deep striking to a hemlock that has jetted backfield could be super nasty. With a second wave in wave serpents backed up by rangers and fire prisms would be a tough nut to crack.

If it ends up being too powerful, GW will nerf it. Unlike Imperium armies, GW have been very quick to nerf any benefits Xenos have had in 8th. Hence the quick removal of razorwings from the game.

Personally, I'm glad there's finally a counter to IG and Gulliman parking lot gunlines. People will have to bring some actual mobile units, and some assault squads. What a shame.

Guys, on the topic of Spectres, did Irrylith get FAQd to have the character rule?

I may be blind but I don't see it on his sheet in the Xenos page.

Him with the WT that allows you to shoot characters even if they're not the closest + multiple Altaioc Spectre sauads w/ some Hemlocks has me pretty jazzed in theory land.

Niiru wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They got a stratagem to make Seer council smite act normal.

Do they? I just looked through, and I found a warlock conclave one that costs 1CP to double the range of a manifested power... but it would still just be an 18" range baby smite. Unless you have more than 7 warlocks in the conclave, then it would be a decent smite. But 1CP and 7+ warlocks (so 300 odd points) just for one decent smite doesn't seem that great, considering you can get the same by buying a spiritseer for 45 points and no CP's.

Singing spears for 4 points are seeming like a better weapon than warlocks attempting smite.

I thought it was 5? And thats what i meant 5 + the 1CP = normal lol.

I agree its not very good..........

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
They got a stratagem to make Seer council smite act normal.

Do they? I just looked through, and I found a warlock conclave one that costs 1CP to double the range of a manifested power... but it would still just be an 18" range baby smite. Unless you have more than 7 warlocks in the conclave, then it would be a decent smite. But 1CP and 7+ warlocks (so 300 odd points) just for one decent smite doesn't seem that great, considering you can get the same by buying a spiritseer for 45 points and no CP's.

Singing spears for 4 points are seeming like a better weapon than warlocks attempting smite.

I thought it was 5? And thats what i meant 5 + the 1CP = normal lol.

I agree its not very good..........

Actually you're right, for "normal" smite damage it's 4-6 warlocks. 7+ warlocks means it always deals D6 no matter what you roll in the psychic test. So yeh, 4+ warlocks with that stratagem gets normal smite. Seems they'd be able to cast two smites in fact, and 7+ warlocks can cast 3 smites. (Can the same unit cast multiple smites? I know smite isn't effected by the matched play "once per turn" rule, can't remember if it had any other limits. Can't say I've ever tried to smite twice from one character before).

Still though, 4+ warlocks for 2x normal smites... or 2 spiritseers for the same. And warlocks perils are D3 mortal wounds, on models with only 2 wounds, so if you roll a 3 you will end up killing one and damaging another.

It looks like we will have better fortunes..... But I still don't hear the one big thing we need: a way to cancel invulnerable saves. Without that you are at a severe disadvantage vs the dick who brings both Mortarian and Magnus. And you're bound to meet him at a big event.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Yes, you'd be using a Serpent for a more reliable charge. Deep-striking the Scorpions is exposing yourself to a pretty large chance that they fail to do anything, and then they die easier than tactical Marines. It's much easier to get them into combat with a Serpent. Sure, your opponent could move away as fast as possible but I will happily leave a unit of Scorpions inside a Serpent all game if it means that my opponent is continually moving so that he's about 20" away from me at the end of his movement phase -- Scorpions' average charge can reach something 18" away from your Serpent.

I mean, I doubt they're worth it right now either way, but I tend to think that they're better in a Serpent than out of one as-is.

I have had great success deploying them into terrain for a 2+ save right up near the enemy, it forces your opponent to react to them usually and you want to be picking off weak units with them anyway. They can take a lot of firepower sitting in cover. Drawing and soaking up enemy fire is not failing to do anything. Also having a unit you can deploy in hiding means your opponent has to put down one extra unit before you start putting down too, this is why I always tend to bring at least one Scorpion squad. Now they are 15ppm they are even cheaper and efficient harasser unit.

Also that charge range is over two turns it would be good if it was one.

I feel like if you've got Scorpions sitting in cover in a place where your opponent can't just move one unit back a little bit and then ignore them unless they want to leave cover, they're going to be pretty easy to deal with. Yeah, they do well against bolters. But even in cover, current 15 point Scorpions are only a little more durable per point vs lasguns than are tactical Marines outside of cover. And then they're much more vulnerable than Guardsmen outside of cover to things like heavy bolters and assault cannons, which are likely to be close by -- in general almost everything that you'd ordinarily be happy shooting at horde units is about as good or better against Scorpions in cover, and then you're also really happy to shoot at them with stuff you'd ordinarily throw at MEQs. Like, unbuffed Guardians expect to make back about half their points in a single volley against 15 point Scorpions in cover. They're also very vulnerable to CC. Mandiblasters do very little if they're not the chargers, and then of course they don't benefit from cover in this case. A counter-assault unit is going to tear them apart.

In 1 turn, an Eldar infantry model can disembark with the front of its base 4" from a Serpent, then move 7", then average a 7" charge, which is an 18" average range. It is really not difficult to get a pretty safe charge out of a Serpent unless your opponent goes to great lengths to stop you.

I think cross-faction comparisons are really useful in general to try to put things in context. An Assault Marine with a jump pack is 16 points. They give up Mandiblasters, have slightly worse pistols, and hit slightly worse against units entirely in cover, but move 12" and are signficantly more durable against small arms. No one uses them this way. They're regarded as being pretty bad, even though they appear to be better than Scorpions at the job you're saying you like Scorpions for.

I think you and Korlandril have both listed the best ways to use scorpions, so you both make valid points. Alaitoc Scorpions probably fair slightly better when you use them on the table due to -1 to hit, it forces the squad you put them near to deal with them or run away. I love sticking them in a Serpent with fortune and doom support Farseer though, add Yriel for extra fun

Coldsteel wrote:
It looks like we will have better fortunes..... But I still don't hear the one big thing we need: a way to cancel invulnerable saves. Without that you are at a severe disadvantage vs the dick who brings both Mortarian and Magnus. And you're bound to meet him at a big event.

Well how about this - Take a Jetbike Warlock with the Protect/Jinx power, then use the stratagem (Edit: Concordance of Power) for 1 CP which doubles the range of his powers. Sit 36 inches away from Morty/Magnus and his friends and you can cast the power without any risk of being denied (enemy HAS to be within 24 inches), for a -1 modifier to their armour/invuln saves.

Only -1 but seems far more fool proof than say, trying to get within 6 inches for null zone...

Spartacus wrote:

Coldsteel wrote:
It looks like we will have better fortunes..... But I still don't hear the one big thing we need: a way to cancel invulnerable saves. Without that you are at a severe disadvantage vs the dick who brings both Mortarian and Magnus. And you're bound to meet him at a big event.

Well how about this - Take a Jetbike Warlock with the Protect/Jinx power, then use the stratagem (Edit: Concordance of Power) for 1 CP which doubles the range of his powers. Sit 36 inches away from Morty/Magnus and his friends and you can cast the power without any risk of being denied (enemy HAS to be within 24 inches), for a -1 modifier to their armour/invuln saves.

Only -1 but seems far more fool proof than say, trying to get within 6 inches for null zone...

I think that strategem may be for Conclave Warlocks only.

Could someone confirm the costs for warlocks?

It would also be amazing to have a more detailed understanding of their power generation as a conclave (lots of different iterations, mainly people calling them rubbish)

As all of the videos seem unclear. As I understand they are cheaper in a conclave than as individuals? This is my understanding thus far:

Warlock: 35pts
Warlock sky runner: 65pts

Warlock conclave: 30pts per model minimum 2
Warlock skyrunner conclave: 60ptd per model minimum 2

Singing spear: 4pts

So a large conclave of 10 with singing spears = 640 pts?

Totally understand they're not optimum. Would just like to understand for fun games.

Singing spears appear to be 5 points, but otherwise that seems right.

So, I've not ever really played Eldar, but the Bonesinger and FW Avatar have been on my bucket list for nearly a decade at this point, and the new codex, along with the new Bonesinger availability have me really considering getting on this Xenos scum train.

With that in mind, and with a few grains of salt since we haven't seen too much going on about him quite yet, my primary interest in Eldar would be the potential to build a list around the Avatar. Based on what we know so far, what are peoples' thoughts on the best units to run with him as the core of an army with the intent of being at least semi-competitive? I'm personally a fan of lower model counts myself, but I'm open to any ideas for the sake of discussion.

Due to the limitations the Avatar faces in mobility due to not being able to ride in a transport, I feel slightly hesitant about wraithblades as an escort, since their low mobility would serve to leave him vulnerable. Perhaps some Shadow Spectres at -2 using the jump-shoot-jump stratagem could serve as a solid screen during the turn or two it takes him to reach his destination? Of course, they don't do much to synergize with the Avatar's offense, meaning he'd still need some solid linebreaking offense.

My hope for the Avatar is that he'll be able to use the infiltrate/deepstrike stratagem. Don't know the details yet, but I can imagine fielding him that way together with a large unit of Guardian Defenders. They should offer a good protection bubble for a while, bring a worthwhile shooting themself and will be immune to morale. No clue if that can be competitive but it sounds like a chance to finally bring him quick enough to the enemy.