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Mr.T wrote: Or: you need 3,375 shots to strip off 1 wound from T7 3+. Only rerolls from watchmaster and +1 to wound rolls from gem
So 33,75 shots to kill rhino.
10 vets can kill rhino under watchmaster bubble.
I have to say, with the difference in number conventions, this made me do a double take.
Three thousand three hundred seventy five shots to deal one wound to t7 3+?!
GCS-5 wrote: Frag cannons are way too good for 25 points. I'm calling a points increase by September or Chapter Approved. Take 4 of them in a squad. with 8D6 S6 -1 1D shots with +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic), that scary genestealer mob would not dare charge you.
Or, you can have 8 S9 -3 2D shots with the same +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic). You're wounding T8 on 2 rerolling, whats not to love.I was considering trying this for a major ITC event in my region. I had two practice games with an earlier version of the list with great success vs nids and chaos (who were both testing their event lists).
Is it any different than S9 -3 D6D shots from four times the range? Yes, you can deep strike frag cannons to get them in kill range, but then you blast one tank and get shot off the board. Frag cannons are one of my favorite weapons but as far as effectiveness goes, you'll get more mileage out of a raven guard devastator squad for less points.
On a note about AV, I ran into a T8 Dreadnought (Might of Heroes) yesterday. It was a casual game, but I really could do nothing about that thing. 3 Frag cannons did some good damage but not enough to kill. Melta sucked because wounding on 4s. I didn't have rerolls at all, and I didn't use my +1 to wound stratagem, which would have helped, and my squad died immediately after.
So: How many frag cannons do you need to kill a T8 model? Do you need to use the stratagem every time? What's the best anti-tank in DW for T8?
Well within 12inches you are a damage 2 lascannon so you really shouldn't have an issue taking out t8. I'd think 4 frag cannons would do the job with no buffs and 3 if you had buffs. Hell if you are buffed two could do it.
3 frag cannons deal 4 wounds to T5-8, 3+ armor. With the proper mission tactic (heavy support, so basically requiring Tome of the Ectoclades and a nearby HQ) it becomes 5 wounds (average, so realistically 4). Captain means 6. Watch Master squeaks it to just under 50% chance to deal 8. 2 CP for +1 to wound gives me high chance to deal 8 wounds. I only kill a Russ 14% of the time, with Deep Strike, Watch Master, and 3 frag cannons. 4 frag cannons does the job - at an absolute bare minimum of 180 points + Watch Master and 2 CP - but I am still 12" away from his force, who can move and get into rapid fire range. I am probably dead.
I think frag cannons are amazing at a lot of things and they're still one of my favorite weapons in all of 8th edition, but I do not think they're the answer for hardcore tanks, so I'm trying to figure out what that answer is.
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
So with the new FAQ up, what are some of the other issues people are seeing that weren't addressed? I'm glad they clarified the AGL on Intercessor squads, but I'm wondering what other issues you guys want to see clarified or 'fixed'.
/cheers!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/29 17:58:49
NickTheButcher wrote: So with the new FAQ up, what are some of the other issues people are seeing that weren't addressed? I'm glad they clarified the AGL on Intercessor squads, but I'm wondering what other issues you guys want to see clarified or 'fixed'.
/cheers!
Does Tome of the Ectoclades give the mission tactic to all DEATHWATCH units, not just those eligible for the mission tactic to begin with?
Does Targeting Scramblers occur after a T'au player has used their Markerlight stratagem? (I believe the answer is yes, but clarification would help quell arguments.)
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
bullyboy wrote: surprised they reverted back to the old Inferno Halo launcher rules
The index rule was reroll saves of 1. This new one is... different. I guess it's good against aeldari, but with most ITC rules forbidding you from doing list tailoring it seems odd. I guess I'd rather have it than not, but the old one gave you a solid boost to your defenses 100% of the time, but now you just really shut down units that can fly and otherwise waste 5 points.
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
Hey guys, I think we really need to go hard and e-mail the FAQ team to address the Dedicated Transports issue. It's ridiculous playing our local DE player and not getting to use Mission Tactics or a decent chunk of the Stratagems until turn 2/3. It'll take less than five minutes of your time and could lead to a major QoL improvement for the army.
NickTheButcher wrote: So with the new FAQ up, what are some of the other issues people are seeing that weren't addressed? I'm glad they clarified the AGL on Intercessor squads, but I'm wondering what other issues you guys want to see clarified or 'fixed'.
/cheers!
I don't think they addressed the Dominus Aegis issue on the first turn. How mission tactics and doctrines work when targeting dedicated transports still needs clarification ruleswise as well.
Secondary to that I've always wanted an explanation as to why marine vehicles don't benefit from whatever the army's chapter/mission tactic is whether they're codex marines or special flavouring.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/30 11:49:31
So I'm learning fairly quickly that it's easier than I expected to fill out a double Battalion with Deathwatch. There isn't really a troop tax like I feel there is for vanilla marines, where scouts are really there just to deny deep strike and fill battalions. 2x Intercessors and 2x Stalker Veterans cost you only 400 points and get you a very lethal, surprisingly sturdy basis for the rest of your army.
What are your thoughts on the HQs? I really like Watch Masters but I only have one of them unfortunately. Do you think it would be easy to kitbash one using a guardian spear bit from a Custodes?
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
Yes, but considering the meat and potatoes of Deathwatch is big killy Troop choices, it's implied you'd take some cool ones on top of your base 4. The point is that you can, bare minimum, spend 600 points + HQs to get two Battalions (so probably all around under 1000), and I do not think those points are a tax considering how effective Stalker Boltguns and SIA Bolt Rifles are.
Edit: How about that. Watch Captain with Thunder Hammer + Storm Bolter is 100 points. Librarian with Force Sword + Storm Bolter is 100 points. 500 points per Battalion, and they're not slouches either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/30 19:52:22
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
The HQs seem like the weak links in the double battillions. I can see wanting 2 watch masters, and then I guess a jump pack librarian and jump pack captain might be the best options to get to 4?
I think Master, Libby, and 2 Captains will be what I go with. Master midfield, one Deep Striking Captain (probably can swap with the Master on a case by case), one Jump Pack libby with the Tome handing out buffs, and one Captain to babysit the snipers.
jcd386 wrote: The HQs seem like the weak links in the double battillions. I can see wanting 2 watch masters, and then I guess a jump pack librarian and jump pack captain might be the best options to get to 4?
This has been my issue with double BN DW. The HQ's are the tax and you dont get much benefit bringing more than one of each. I suppose you could bring one Chaplain Dread along as well, but at that point you're at 1200ish points for the two battalions and still havent properly addressed your anti horde and anti tank needs. Each proper kill team dedicated for the anti horde role is 2-300 points which means you've got anywhere between 2-400 points to bring AT. The Intercessors and stalker teams in the backfield are nice, but even with SIA they're not providing enough volume of fire for their points. You really need to be shoving frag cannons and rapid fire storm bolter vets or aggressors down your opponent's throat to do the damage you need. I think if you're looking at being at all competitive. you need to just suck it up and bring the AM BN rather than try to make multi BN DW work.
I also think taking double DW BN is a mistake because it forces you to MSU. DW's army design encourages taking large squads. You need to make the absolute most of your +1 to wound strats and 5 man squads just don't cut it for that purpose. Durability that comes from the larger squads is also a major factor, 4 storm shields with 4 frag cannons is a really hard nut to crack unless your opponent pours a massive amount of garbage shots into them (which they shouldnt be getting because the frag cannons should have killed a ton of the chaff), but the things that normally would delete a power armored squad, like plasma, are pretty much reduced to bolters that wound on 3's.
As far as anecdotal experience goes. so far my 2k list of 1x Cadian BN, 1x Scion BN, 1x DW BN has worked great. My pure DW games post-codex have also been wins, but both of them were extremely close. One of them came down to literally the last roll of the game where I made a 10" charge to kill the last model on the board for a table win. If I hadn't made it in, the game would have ended in a win for him on score.
Yeah it definitely seems like one DW battillion is the way to go, and then ally in one or two other army's MVP units. Though it really seems like that's how all imperium armies are nowadays. I've been toying around with building a DW + BA + RG list with all the Marines I have laying around. It's not the best thing in the world, but at least when you cherry pick the good units out of each book Marines actually start feeling like Marines again, lol.
I don't see double battalion as worth it to be honest. One or two HQ is more than enough.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Well, with double battalion you can more easily spam the +1 to wound strat. That'll make the SIA useful against harder targets and saves you having to spend on AT stuff (wounding on 4+ isn't bad). Some hellblasters and bolt rifles firing Vengeance rounds at +1 to wound hurts I've found. Also you can use the mortal wound strategems more freely. All the bolters/bolt rifles from you other dudes are pretty good anti horde, especially with some aggressors sprinkled around...or frag cannons. 13 CP is pretty hard to spend, so you can really go crazy (or at least not hold back).
I use 2 batts with 1 watch master, 1 Termy Libby, 2 captains with jump packs (1 double LC, 1 TH/SB). One battalion is as basic as it gets, 3 units of intercessors. The other one has 2 units of intercessors with 2 hellblasters and a plasma inceptor and one unit intercessors with 4 aggressors and a bolter inceptor. In addition I have 2 dreadnoughts, one AT with TLLC/ML and a Redemptor.
Makes it surprisingly mobile with the Teleportarium and Beacon.
I need some more experience with it, but so far they do ok. Tonight I'll try 'em out again. So I'm not saying its the end all be all, but the double battalion does work for me personally. The TH/SB captain dishes some damage in cc or shooting. I gave him banebolts as well, that's 8 damage that has a high chance to hit and possibly wound.
I had another game, and ran into an interesting conundrum. My main troops were stalker boltgun vets and bolt rifle intercessors. Stalkers spit good fire, intercessors take points. The problem was mobility - without repulsors, intercessors just can't get up the board fast enough to get onto objectives. And, the conundrum, stalker vets don't want to move, but they also are terrible at holding backfield objectives since they just melt so much easier than intercessors - I even had them in cover.
Maybe I should take 10 man stalker/biker squads and combat squad them to get 5 zoomy objective secured models? Or maybe the repulsor is worth it? Or instead of deep striking close range models aggressively, I should deep strike sturdy long ranged troops onto points and hold them?
Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1."
Sloeberjong wrote: Well, with double battalion you can more easily spam the +1 to wound strat. That'll make the SIA useful against harder targets and saves you having to spend on AT stuff (wounding on 4+ isn't bad). Some hellblasters and bolt rifles firing Vengeance rounds at +1 to wound hurts I've found. Also you can use the mortal wound strategems more freely. All the bolters/bolt rifles from you other dudes are pretty good anti horde, especially with some aggressors sprinkled around...or frag cannons. 13 CP is pretty hard to spend, so you can really go crazy (or at least not hold back).
You can also get a much stronger list by dropping one of the extra Captains and a 5 man Intercessor squad for a Guard CP battery. Every Bolter that shoots at a Guardsmen is one less opportunity for you to fail a 3+ save on a DW model plus CP Regen is far better since you roll per CP rather than per strat and DW strats often use more than one CP.
Obviously DW do better with more CP and getting multiple battalions is a good thing. The issue is paying a bunch of points for units you don't want/need in order to get a double DW BN. On top of that, not needing to run 6 DW min sized troops means you can actually get the most out of +1 to wound strat since you can afford to consolidate them into larger squads.
The farm is probably going to get nerfed hard soon enough. I would just move on instead.
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Primark G wrote: The farm is probably going to get nerfed hard soon enough. I would just move on instead.
September is the next balance pass and they made the CP battery even better with the last one. No point gimping yourself for the next 3 months on the off chance it might get changed.
If a guard cp nerf happens along with a move to 1750 as standard, then you can forget about competitive DW anyway so you might as well enjoy being solid mid/upper mid tier while it lasts.
Even still, I would say a BA scout BN + DW BN is far more useful than 2x DW BN. At least the BA BN plugs the board control and psyker defense gaps.
Ok so I have a 1k tournament at the end of the month and I'm using pure deathwatch for fun. I also don't own any AM and don't want to.. That being said I made this list and wanted to discuss how to use it effectively. I'm probably not going to change it because my collection is limited at this time. however using it to its fullest is my goal.
The vet squad and watch master are going to DS turn two and blast apart what they can. At 12" the frag cannons are assault 2 lascannons 2 dmg each, the heavy bolter will use the d3 mortal wound strat and the stormbolters and watch master will use SIA according to what they are shooting. I would pop whichever strategem needed for +1 to wound rolls. vengeance for vehicles and heavy armor troops or hellfire for monsters and lighter infantry. Most units would be foolish to charge it because of overwatch, unless they pulled off a charge outside of 8" or LOS, they would eat 7d6 autohits @S5/S6 -1 AP. The terminators shoot at whatever I need them to and help me pass morale automatically. I can pop tempest shell strat and If watch master eventually gets into range he can pop clavis all for mortal wounds against whichever vehicle I need to maim.
The intercessor would move toward objectives and fire SIA according to what was most right for the job with the primaris captain supporting. Thoughts?
I'm running claw and grav or cyclonic because that's what I have (and claw purely for the looks)
veil of time terminator librarian dropping in with it has proven a great idea, especially combo'd with might of heroes making the thing T9 with 4 attacks. Armor of contempt stratagem is not to be overlooked either, especially against armies that have a lot of ways of dealing MWs (getting a save vs DE/clowns haywire blasters makes for sad opponents).
drop in, to serious damage to a single target or a few targets with melta/grav, get a decent charge chance with VoT, rip and tear whatever didn't melt, get stuck in and absorb a ton of shooting the next turn.
