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 Primark G wrote:
Guardsmen are undercosted.

Sure, that may be true - won't stop them or AM Batts being necessary.

tag8833 wrote:
My preferred fix to the CP batter is to raise the cost of Guardsmen.

On the topic of Deathwatch...
The deathwatch buffs seem to really, really help out intercessors. Has anyone tried a board control list based on lots of intercessors. Or can someone tell me why that is a bad idea?

Then might just as well remove monoguard from the game. Thanks a lot banning my army

Thanks Rogue. Yeah, AT is a problem in the list I suppose, I'll see what I can do. But of course, as you probably know, there's very little wiggle room in a double batallion DW list. I do have a Venator in the painting queue, and could deepstrike more killteams and drop a Corvus. I run Krieg a lot, so have lots of options in terms of Basilisks, Melta-Grenadiers, Russ Conquerers, etc, but as you say, pure DW is the aim. T8 targets is the problem.

tneva82 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
My preferred fix to the CP batter is to raise the cost of Guardsmen.

On the topic of Deathwatch...
The deathwatch buffs seem to really, really help out intercessors. Has anyone tried a board control list based on lots of intercessors. Or can someone tell me why that is a bad idea?

Then might just as well remove monoguard from the game. Thanks a lot banning my army

An increase in cost on guardsmen would hurt monoguard more, you're right, but I don't think it completely invalidates the army. That's a bit sensationalist, don't you think?

What's important to note is that a change to guardsmen would not impact folks like me that use the tried and true, plug and play AM CP battery battalion. I'll just have to trim from my main force. Grand Strategist and Kurov's are the reason I choose Guard over any other chaff.

I honestly do not understand why there's so much hate for AM being part of most marine lists. Honestly, I'd be okay with a change to Grand Strategist so it acts like all the other CP recovering traits, and something - anything, really - to make Kurov's less enticing as a combo with GS. But that won't change the fact that Guard (or admech) fills a role that mono-marine armies can't do on their own very efficiently.

Hello Deathwatch peeps!

I play pure BA and am looking at getting some Primaris, it seems to be that you DW guys have the most fun putting Primaris squads together so I have thought it might be time to slurp a little soup and mix some DW into my BA force.

I only ever play casual games and my lists are generally TAC, oppo is normally Necron or Eldar.

So, what do you suggest I put together if I want to put an smattering of DW in my force, really want to get some of that cool Primaris Hellblaster dakka in there.

I don't want these guys to be moving anywhere much, my BA have more than enough guys who can run around, I need some reasonable firepower to sit back and hold on when the inevitable rush comes to me.

Cheers!

 gkos wrote:
Hello Deathwatch peeps!

I play pure BA and am looking at getting some Primaris, it seems to be that you DW guys have the most fun putting Primaris squads together so I have thought it might be time to slurp a little soup and mix some DW into my BA force.

I only ever play casual games and my lists are generally TAC, oppo is normally Necron or Eldar.

So, what do you suggest I put together if I want to put an smattering of DW in my force, really want to get some of that cool Primaris Hellblaster dakka in there.

I don't want these guys to be moving anywhere much, my BA have more than enough guys who can run around, I need some reasonable firepower to sit back and hold on when the inevitable rush comes to me.

Cheers!

I'm personally of the mind that you include DW for what unique things they can bring, so I always try and maximize that. This means things like mixed units adding extra ablative wounds, Doctrine strats (which work best on large units), and special issue ammunition alongside mission tactics, both of which combine to make them dangerous to a wide range of targets from range. For Fortis Kill Teams, you're getting powerful SIA, great mobility if you want it, fall back and shoot if you want it, and ablative wounds for things you want to try and protect. What they don't have are cheap transport or easy access to invulns.

Two of my favourite builds I've used:

5 Intercessors with auto bolt rifles and 1 aux grenade launcher

4 Aggressors with boltstorm gauntlets

1 Inceptor with auto bolters

Or...

5 Intercessors with bolt rifles and 1 aux grenade launcher

4 Hellblasters with rapid fire incinerators

1 Inceptor with plasma

The first is T5 and gives you lots of mobility and ablative wounds for Aggressors, a unit that famously loves to die before it gets to double shoot. It's also protected from having a transport fly into you to silence them and they do a pretty decent job of punching if they need to. I use them to move forward fast and get into cover so they can dakka the hell out of screens and hold an objective. You can drop the points and up the SIA sources by dropping the Aggressors to 1, but then you lose T5 and the chance at double shooting. I mention it because its fun, but you probably don't want this build.

The second solves two of the biggest issues with Hellblasters - being silenced when a trash transport drives into them, and losing their effectiveness as they die. The plasma gets 10 ablative wounds that can pump out their own 'budget' plasma when they get closer, reroll 1s to wound, and can get +1 to wound alongside a variety of anti-xenos strats that you'll benefit from given your common opponents.

But both units benefit from moving forward. Speed is different for each, obviously, and the first one probably doesn't fit what you're looking for. It can sit on objectives and make the enemy's life painful, but it really only has an 18'' threat range. The other is closer to what you're looking for as it can plink from range but puts a good amount of its damage when closer. If you intend to stay as far away as possible, consider dropping the Inceptor, but that Eldar player will try and drive a wave serpent into that unit whenever he can, so its a trade off.

Cheers Lemondish,

You are correct, it is durable firepower at range I am looking for, I do not as yet have a codex for DW so am not aufait with the extras that are available. I can use my mobile BA to get forward, take objectives, cause hassle etc.

Stupid question, but what is SIA? I have seen it mentioned a lot in this thread, but it's a long thread to trawl through to find the definition.

Are there any specific DW characters who provide specific buffs.

I don't particularly want to take as much as a battalion, but who knows where this would lead!


Thanks again

Hi gkos, I'm pretty new to DW, but here's my attempt to answer your questions...

SIA is a four-type ammunition loadout that works on bolters, bolt pistols, bolt rifles, etc (but not heavy bolter variants). It absolutely rocks and is one of the stand out strengths of DW. The two best profiles are probably Vengeance (+6" & -1 AP to the gun's profile), and Hellfire (wound anything on a 2+ vs non-vehicle units!). Combined with vets' new-found ability to use a stormbolter, SIA makes both humble veterans and intercessors pretty formidable. S'great, and only adds 1pt onto a marine's cost per weapon (+2 to stormbolters, which is fair enough. SIA Stormbolters are sweet).

Long range firepower is a bit limited for DW, if you're talking about AT. Our best is Ven Dreadnoughts and FW models. If you're talking troops, then our intercessors are solid in the role - using vengeance rounds, either assault bolt rifles firing -1ap assault 2 30", or bolt rifles -2ap rapid fire 36" - are both solid on a 5-man objective camper unit, and they can plink away at a wide variety of targets. Toughness 8 vehicles are a no-no for them though.

The one unique DW character is the Watchmaster, who is pound for pound one of the best HQs in the Imperium right now. Reroll all misses for only 130pts, with good CC and a nice stat line, who can be specced to take on vehicles in particular, due to his Clavis, an elite piece of kit that messes with tech.

Batallions are expensive, but give you DW troops, which are unique, tactically rich and very fun.

Special issue ammo. The variable fire modes that make DW dangerous across target types.

The Watch Master has one of the best auras giving full rerolls to hit to nearby DW.

Doh.. Special Issue Ammo!

I need to grab myself a codex!

I have enough BA kit to remove tanks, I've had a single death company squad one turn a lord of skulls (they died afterwards, but it was great to see), I also have numerous vehicles so it's the ability to run mixed Primaris with the special issue ammo that I think is quite special (plus, black and silver are a classic combination that looks good with anything)

 gkos wrote:
Doh.. Special Issue Ammo!

I need to grab myself a codex!

I have enough BA kit to remove tanks, I've had a single death company squad one turn a lord of skulls (they died afterwards, but it was great to see), I also have numerous vehicles so it's the ability to run mixed Primaris with the special issue ammo that I think is quite special (plus, black and silver are a classic combination that looks good with anything)

Sorry bud, I forgot you had mentioned you were coming in blind

If you have enough BA kits to remove tanks, then I'm not sure what you'll find of benefit from Hellblasters. Or rather, specifically DW ones. You'll obviously want something to take on high toughness infantry or monsters while you're slamming the feth out of tanks...which is where special issue ammunition comes into play.

So, to break it down a bit, SIA provides you some great bonuses that you choose when a unit fires. Dragonfire gives you +1 to hit against targets in cover - very situational and almost never used, but there are some cases where it can be of value. Hellfire rounds wound on 2+ on anything that isn't a vehicle or titanic. That's great for monster hunting or taking out anything high toughness. Intercessors carry a -1AP bolt rifle normally, so Hellfire gives you a weapon that can wound most foot slogging threats on 2s and subtract from their armour save, which is a good tool to have against big tough Xeno monsters or anybody with an invuln where high AP isn't helping, or anybody in cover, etc.. Next is Kraken, which adds 6'' of range (or 3'' on pistols) and another -1AP. That means your Intercessor bolt rifles are double tapping at 18'' and reaching out 36'' normally with -2 AP. That's pretty boss. Vengeance subtracts 6'' (or 3'' from pistols) but grants you -2 AP. So that makes Intercessor bolt rifles double tap at 12'' (like normal boltguns) at a pretty awesome -3AP. They're basically budget plasma guns, and with a couple CP gain +1 to wound. SIA weapons also give you a sweet strat that gives you the option to pump out mortal wounds.

HQ choices are Watch Masters that give you reroll to all missed hit rolls, sport 6 wounds, 2+ws/bs, 2+ armour, and a 4++, along with giving you a discount on the adaptive tactics strat, which is what you'll use if you need to swap Mission Tactics. Mission Tactics are the DW version of chapter tactics - basically reroll 1s to wound on a specific battlefield role (elite, fast attack, troop, etc.) that you select at the beginning but can change with a strat. Then you have the normal Watch Captain which gives rerolls on 1s to hit, and a decent amount of wargear options, next to Chaplains and Librarians (and their Primaris equivalents). I honestly don't know anything about BA librarians except I think they run a different discipline, so this might be a good opportunity to get something from the Librarius discipline, if you find it's of value?

DW are probably the best use of Primaris, but it can get expensive if you don't laser focus on what you want them to do, especially if you want them to supplement a weakness or fill a particular role. Based on what you're saying, I'm not sure Hellblasters can help you as much as just normal DW Intercessors with bolt weapons will. They'll certainly be cheaper that way, but I don't want to dissuade you if you want the flexibility of Hellblasters as part of a crazy hit squad in a patrol detachment that seeks out and murders different threats based on combat roles.

Then there are the special anti-Xenos strats you can take advantage of. The anti-Necron one hurts resurrection protocols, while the anti-Aeldari one gives you a chance to fire on fly units if they get too close, though with an impact on hit. These have been amazing for me in my games (I play primarily DW with a CP battery AM battalion like everybody else) but both these and the +1 to wound strats work best when applied to bigger units.

Let me know if you end up adding them and what you think! I absolutely love everything about DW - warts and all. It's become my favourite power armour marine force. I need to find a way to get myself into GW because I often daydream about random rules changes I'd make (what fan doesn't lol)

As far as Deathwatch Librarians, Psychic Fortress is probably their best power (assuming any enemy psykers are present). Mortal wounds are the bane of any elite army, and 4+ FNPs will absolutely save you. With most smite-type powers hitting the closest unit, it’s also easy to tell who’s going to get it worst and cast accordingly.

thanks again for taking the time to reply, whilst I mentioned I can take out a tank or monster, the CC troops that do it (be it captain slam or death company) are generally one hit wonders.

The kraken ammo looks pretty awesome, depending on faction, bog standard necrons are slow, to be putting shots in them at 36" could make a big difference. What I am missing is mobile "mid range" firepower that doesn't suffer massive penalties if it moves. this is where I see the intercessors coming in.

I mentioned hellblasters in my initial post as I was coming in from ignorance, on paper they look good. As you point out SIA changes the rules somewhat.

FYI, BA librarians do jack for shooting, they can give attacks or invulns to other units, make themselves into CC tough guys who can fly and also dish out some mortal wounds like any other libby. If you roll lucky on the psychic phase, a flying librarian dread with +d3 attacks and a 5+ invuln can put down some hurt, but not as much as Mephiston!

I will play up some models and let you know how it goes.

 gkos wrote:
thanks again for taking the time to reply, whilst I mentioned I can take out a tank or monster, the CC troops that do it (be it captain slam or death company) are generally one hit wonders.

The kraken ammo looks pretty awesome, depending on faction, bog standard necrons are slow, to be putting shots in them at 36" could make a big difference. What I am missing is mobile "mid range" firepower that doesn't suffer massive penalties if it moves. this is where I see the intercessors coming in.

I mentioned hellblasters in my initial post as I was coming in from ignorance, on paper they look good. As you point out SIA changes the rules somewhat.

FYI, BA librarians do jack for shooting, they can give attacks or invulns to other units, make themselves into CC tough guys who can fly and also dish out some mortal wounds like any other libby. If you roll lucky on the psychic phase, a flying librarian dread with +d3 attacks and a 5+ invuln can put down some hurt, but not as much as Mephiston!

I will play up some models and let you know how it goes.

As mentioned by Badablack, DW Librarians bring mostly buffs to others. Psychic Fortress is great, and Null Zone helps you combat invuln saves.

Midfield mobility could be achieved by that auto bolt rifle squad I mentioned. Kraken makes the assault bolters pop off two shots of -1AP pain at 30", or two shots of -2AP with Vengeance at 18". Add just one Aggressor and you can advance without penalty. While I said their best range is 18", that ignored the fact that they can keep at that range for a long time with that mobility. It's honestly the unit I have the most fun with, but I haven't had the displeasure of facing a lot of 2 damage weapons or needing to rely on invuln saves.

One major thing about DW that I spaced on (seriously, I'm making terrible assumptions about what you know lol) that might make you think of other tactical options is the Teleportarium stratagem. Up to 3CP to stick up to 3 infantry or dreadnoughts units into reserve. Could give you options there.

What points value could you change the commander to that wouldn't just cause people to take 2 Primaris psykers or two Lord commissars instead while still not picking over mono guard? I mean, a 10 point increase to 40 points only adds 20 to the CP battery cost which wouldn't phase anyone taking them as a CP battery. Anything more than 10 and the battery player just grabs a different cheap HQ choice while the guard players pay for people cherry picking their units for CP. Outside of the context of a battery, a commander is extremely underwhelming as a model. S3/T3/3 base attacks, 5++. Yes, he gets to issue two orders, but that is his only real effect on the battlefield.

RogueApiary wrote:
What points value could you change the commander to that wouldn't just cause people to take 2 Primaris psykers or two Lord commissars instead while still not picking over mono guard? I mean, a 10 point increase to 40 points only adds 20 to the CP battery cost which wouldn't phase anyone taking them as a CP battery. Anything more than 10 and the battery player just grabs a different cheap HQ choice while the guard players pay for people cherry picking their units for CP. Outside of the context of a battery, a commander is extremely underwhelming as a model. S3/T3/3 base attacks, 5++. Yes, he gets to issue two orders, but that is his only real effect on the battlefield.

It honestly doesn't matter how much you increase Guard - it won't stop elite Imperium armies from needing cheap units like what they bring. Increase it too high and I'll just go to admech in its place. The CP battery from GS and KA make it a no brainer to pick guard right now over any other chaff, but if those two issues were handled it would definitely make more options viable. But that's the key part there - I'll still need cheap trash to hold the board. It will be that way until those elite armies get their own way to cover the board or don't need bubble wrap so readily, or the rules for detachments change to encourage mono forces, or a whole other set of major or minor changes that would open up astartes forces to more options. Until then, I'm okay with the fluffy guard battalion anchoring the marine force.

Lemondish wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
What points value could you change the commander to that wouldn't just cause people to take 2 Primaris psykers or two Lord commissars instead while still not picking over mono guard? I mean, a 10 point increase to 40 points only adds 20 to the CP battery cost which wouldn't phase anyone taking them as a CP battery. Anything more than 10 and the battery player just grabs a different cheap HQ choice while the guard players pay for people cherry picking their units for CP. Outside of the context of a battery, a commander is extremely underwhelming as a model. S3/T3/3 base attacks, 5++. Yes, he gets to issue two orders, but that is his only real effect on the battlefield.

It honestly doesn't matter how much you increase Guard - it won't stop elite Imperium armies from needing cheap units like what they bring. Increase it too high and I'll just go to admech in its place. The CP battery from GS and KA make it a no brainer to pick guard right now over any other chaff, but if those two issues were handled it would definitely make more options viable. But that's the key part there - I'll still need cheap trash to hold the board. It will be that way until those elite armies get their own way to cover the board or don't need bubble wrap so readily, or the rules for detachments change to encourage mono forces, or a whole other set of major or minor changes that would open up astartes forces to more options. Until then, I'm okay with the fluffy guard battalion anchoring the marine force.

I think we're on the same wavelength here Lemondish, that was directed towards the people who keep on insisting nerfing guard is the answer to the CP battery issue. I'm not convinced the CP battery even needs a nerf given that Imperium isn't exactly sweeping top tables.

The CP battery is powerful, and is common to all competitive Imperium lists. But is that necessarily a bad thing given the variety of lists that use it as a piece in an overall list? Especially when that piece is the only thing propping up at least three Imperium factions? Like I said, the Knight Codex lance detachment rule is to me pretty clear evidence that GW knows about the CP battery and is designing around it rather than changing it directly.

I don't think a thing being overpowered is always the problem. The CP battery is boring to use, boring to see in other lists, and fairly useless on the table top. It's only good because certain armies have a hard time generating CP, which is the actual problem that needs solving.

jcd386 wrote:
I don't think a thing being overpowered is always the problem. The CP battery is boring to use, boring to see in other lists, and fairly useless on the table top. It's only good because certain armies have a hard time generating CP, which is the actual problem that needs solving.

Actually, no it's not useless. Especially for Deathwatch. They give you fire support and board presence that you can't really achieve with a pure DW army - you don't have the number of models or units for it. You could go MSU, but that will really hamper your strats when you could just fill it with the galaxy's best meat shields. Remember, DW can't screen well at all, and I mean more than just screening out deep strike. Screens do far more than that.

You really don't want your 20-50 point marines catching smite all game. Even a couple farseers smiting every turn can very quickly add up for you. You want the poor guardsman to do it for you.

Deep strike is still a major threat and without screens you’re vulnerable to enemy deep striking units. Even if the enemy can’t deep strike turn 1, they can still very much deliver drop plasma on your door step turn 2 and your 25 point marines have to be the ones to eat the rapid fire. Keep a screen so that drop plasma isn't in rapid fire range and you'll keep the killy DW stuff alive much longer. Guardsmen can do that while DW doesn't have anything for that job. I mean, there’s a reason so many imperial lists start with “Guard Battalion”, so many T'au lists use Strike teams, so many Eldar lists use Rangers, so many marine lists use scouts...and so on.

Want to bubble wrap a vehicle? Why throw Intercessors there when you could go super cheap with an infantry squad.

Guard is just the best option for that role because they bring the CP regen. Removing the CP regen will likely open up more options of how you fill that need, but the one option folks think they'll see won't actually come about. Simply put, with 8th edition how it currently is, there is zero reason for elite Imperium armies to go mono.

But it's not all bad. Realistically there is a points cost that can make PA worthwhile. Maybe they'll find a way with the final codex...

Fair enough, useless was the wrong word. They are useful because they are cheap and can get in the way of stuff and everything you just mentioned. And obviously they do fit well with DW, which I think is fine as well.

However, I don't think it's inherently bad for an elite army to have smite and drop plasma as a weakness, so long as they have other strengths.

I also don't think it's inherently bad to be able to take allies that shore up that weakness some, so long as doing so is a tactical choice made at the expense of other tactical choices.

My issue with the current situation is that allying the guard CP battery is such a strong choice you are practically handicapping yourself if you don't take it. I also find it fairly bland, but that's more personal preference than anything else.

To me, changing the way CP are rewarded is probably the best thing for GW to do, so that DW and other CP hungry armies can generate CP themselves without having to rely on other factions or min maxed detachments. Then, if you decide you need some IG in your list its because you find the units themselves fun and useful, not because you need CP and the units are so cheap that it's a no brainier.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Make something similar to Battleforged called Warforged. If all your detachments share the [deathwatch] keyword (or whatever other keyword) then instead of the base 3 CP you get 6, or 9, or whatever is balanced. It takes the least amount of errata to change.

 Badablack wrote:
Make something similar to Battleforged called Warforged. If all your detachments share the [deathwatch] keyword (or whatever other keyword) then instead of the base 3 CP you get 6, or 9, or whatever is balanced. It takes the least amount of errata to change.

I'd prefer something more comprehensive like my post from another thread below, as I think it might actually fix the problem, but you are probably right that something like that is more likely to happen.

For the CPs, they could just have criteria you can meet for bonuses. For example:

Battle forged: 3 CP
All detachments share a codex faction (ie, space marine, Tau, orks, dark eldar, etc): 2 CP
All detachments share the same codex sub faction: 2 CP (stacks with the previous one).
For every 100 points of troops: 1 CP
For every 200 points of HQs: 1 CP

This way your average pure faction army would have something like 13 CP (3 for battle forged, 4 for pure faction, 2 for 400 points in HQs, and 4 for 400 points of troops), which I think is a reasonable amount, and you could always get more by putting more points into troops.

If you wanted to mix subfactions (such as ultramarines and ravenguard), you can do so at the cost of 2 CP. If you want to ally in something else (such as imperial guard and ravenguard) it would cost you 4.

This would make a typical allies army have 9 CP, which seems okay to me. It's still definitely worth doing if you want to, but no longer a no brainier / required to be competitive, and can still be offset by bringing more troops.

jcd386 wrote:
My issue with the current situation is that allying the guard CP battery is such a strong choice you are practically handicapping yourself if you don't take it. I also find it fairly bland, but that's more personal preference than anything else.

To me, changing the way CP are rewarded is probably the best thing for GW to do, so that DW and other CP hungry armies can generate CP themselves without having to rely on other factions or min maxed detachments. Then, if you decide you need some IG in your list its because you find the units themselves fun and useful, not because you need CP and the units are so cheap that it's a no brainier.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Yep, on that we definitely agree.

 Badablack wrote:
Make something similar to Battleforged called Warforged. If all your detachments share the [deathwatch] keyword (or whatever other keyword) then instead of the base 3 CP you get 6, or 9, or whatever is balanced. It takes the least amount of errata to change.

That could definitely work, and would be fantastic.

Though that begs the question then - how do we mitigate some of the major weaknesses of a pure DW list if we naturally have enough CP to do most of what we need to when we need it?

Personally, I don't really see it as a problem, because I see it as more of a solution to a bigger problem. The endless fracturing of the Imperium into endless mini-factions just makes for a mess. With each one only getting 2-3 unique SKUs and maybe some special characters; there's just no way to provide them with the variety of options needed to compete with factions that can do it all. Imagine how less competitive Eldar would have been all this time if every time they got a new model GW decided to call it its own faction where you bought that one new kit a dozen times and built minor variants out of it?

Sure, you can rip Guard out of every army and then spend forever coming up with custom solutions to the competitive factions you face when you have 1 option for each FOC slot, but why?

And in a game that has always been plagued by "find the best thing and spam it" logic, isn't soup a good thing? If I'm taking models from 3 different codexes, I've got a vastly more varied and interesting army than one in which I'm just trying to take as much of the most powerful thing from the one Codex I have. This is triple true if I'm one of the dozens of Imperium codexes that really only have 1 option available.

So, no, I don't want pure Deathwatch. I don't want to be required to take 3 Blackstars to drop my Veterans off like before. I don't want to have some weird special rule to try and protect me from smite but isn't really good enough because people freak out that its strictly better than a similar rule elsewhere despite that elsewhere having access to units less weak to smite. Soup solves a fundamental problem with the game and that problem is simply the years of half baked factions GW has used to sell people the same stuff with a different coat of paint. I for one am quite happy to play a far more varied and fleshed out faction, even if its not limited to one codex.

Well said LunarSol. Though as an aside I will say I'd have no problems with the Blackstar or Land Raider being good enough to be considered an auto-include for most DW lists. They're thematically the most DW of transports, and I'd love for them to be competitive enough on the table that you can take them without it being a huge disadvantage. Sadly, they aren't there yet. The Corvus needs potms or the Valkyrie grav chute insertion rule, and the Land Raider needs a huge point decrease and defense against tarpits.

Both options being viable could have helped reduce the anti-tank DW issue, but for now the best I've found is to use dunecrawlers or LR tanks, or allied space marine Devastators.

Oh, I want the Blackstar to be better; it definitely needs a way to mitigate its Heavy issue. I'm referring more to how its basically 1 Blackstar per mixed Kill Team, which made 3 Blackstars pretty necessary for pure Deathwatch pre-Primaris.

 LunarSol wrote:
Personally, I don't really see it as a problem, because I see it as more of a solution to a bigger problem. The endless fracturing of the Imperium into endless mini-factions just makes for a mess. With each one only getting 2-3 unique SKUs and maybe some special characters; there's just no way to provide them with the variety of options needed to compete with factions that can do it all. Imagine how less competitive Eldar would have been all this time if every time they got a new model GW decided to call it its own faction where you bought that one new kit a dozen times and built minor variants out of it?

Sure, you can rip Guard out of every army and then spend forever coming up with custom solutions to the competitive factions you face when you have 1 option for each FOC slot, but why?

And in a game that has always been plagued by "find the best thing and spam it" logic, isn't soup a good thing? If I'm taking models from 3 different codexes, I've got a vastly more varied and interesting army than one in which I'm just trying to take as much of the most powerful thing from the one Codex I have. This is triple true if I'm one of the dozens of Imperium codexes that really only have 1 option available.

So, no, I don't want pure Deathwatch. I don't want to be required to take 3 Blackstars to drop my Veterans off like before. I don't want to have some weird special rule to try and protect me from smite but isn't really good enough because people freak out that its strictly better than a similar rule elsewhere despite that elsewhere having access to units less weak to smite. Soup solves a fundamental problem with the game and that problem is simply the years of half baked factions GW has used to sell people the same stuff with a different coat of paint. I for one am quite happy to play a far more varied and fleshed out faction, even if its not limited to one codex.

I think you are right that it (allies) is a solution to a larger problem or set of problems. However, I see it as more of a work around solution, since I don't think it does a very good job. It lets the game be playable, but the problems still exist.

In fact I think allies and the ones people are frequently taking are sometimes a good indicator of current issue the game is having that are forcing people to adopt certain units it playstyles.

Look at the guard CP battery. I think it can be reasonably said it is a symptom of the following game issues to some extent or another:
1. CP are tied to FOC slots, which some armies arbitrarily get more of simply because they happen to have cheap units.
2. Cheap 1 wound infantry is too good at too many things (such as being more durable per point than almost anything else, board control, smite screening, assault screening, deepstrike defence). All of these mean there is rarely a reason not to have them.
3. Smite targeting the closest unit has a major weakness, ie chaff. To the point where as long as smite spam is a thing, cheap bodies will always be needed in a list.

The game certainly works the way it is now, but I think it would be better if the above issues were addressed in some ways. Until then I guess allies will keep the game going.

That kind of change isn't really the kind that solves problems. It's the kind that shuffles things around. Part of the problem with the way the internet criticizes is that it simply points out drawbacks instead of considering the tradeoffs for those drawbacks. Often times the answer is more in the middle. You CAN change something, but it often costs you elsewhere.

I don't think changing those things necessarily makes for a better game; just a different one. I think there's legtimate value in a game played at the scale of 40k demanding some expendable bodies on the table. People seem to have this dream that balance means an army doesn't need to be protected from getting charged, but gets charged, still wins, AND the opposing player should still somehow want to charge them. That's just not how games work on the table and having tools like cheap bodies as answers rather than simply trying to make everything work against everything is how you make meaningful choices in a game.

 LunarSol wrote:
That kind of change isn't really the kind that solves problems. It's the kind that shuffles things around. Part of the problem with the way the internet criticizes is that it simply points out drawbacks instead of considering the tradeoffs for those drawbacks. Often times the answer is more in the middle. You CAN change something, but it often costs you elsewhere.

I don't think changing those things necessarily makes for a better game; just a different one. I think there's legtimate value in a game played at the scale of 40k demanding some expendable bodies on the table. People seem to have this dream that balance means an army doesn't need to be protected from getting charged, but gets charged, still wins, AND the opposing player should still somehow want to charge them. That's just not how games work on the table and having tools like cheap bodies as answers rather than simply trying to make everything work against everything is how you make meaningful choices in a game.

I don't think I actually suggested specific changes there, so i'm not sure exactly what you are referring to. I just pointed out imbalances the game currently has that make the IG battery a best in class option for literally every faction in the game that has it as a legal option.

I am not saying that any of the issues have to be removed from the game entirely, and i agree that most solutions are usually in the middle. To me the ideal solution would be to have IG allies be a valid competitive choice without it being an obvious one. Slight tweaks do generally seem better than major rewrites.

As for the demand of expendable bodies, I disagree from a game mechanics standpoint, as well as a "what GW intends the game to be like" standpoint. Having a large number of single wound models is just one of a few ways for a unit to be durable, and their isn't logical reason i know of why it should be better than units that rely on making saves or having multiple wounds. Each unit type has it's strengths and weaknesses and they should be costed appropriately based on them. You should be able to pick a type of durability to focus on and live with those strengths and weaknesses, or to mix up durability types, without being forced into one way to play by one type of durability being obviously better. This is made even more apparent, I think, by the way GW designs factions with obvious themes, strengths, and weaknesses. They just don't always make the rules back them up correctly, or know how to balance them correctly.

Can someone tell me whether I'm crazy, because I think a 5man vet team all armed with combi-flamers might be worth a punt?

Put in one or two stormshields to make the squad 145-150pts, and you have 5d6 autohits, and 20 SIA shots (at -1 to hit ofc).

Normally, that would be some pretty nice chaff cleaning power (19 dead boyz w/watchmaster & mission), but a bit too overspecialised to really be worth it, but the weight of shots these guys can concentrate makes them a clear pick for spending 2cps on a doctine. Assuming you have a Watchmaster to back them up, and use a 2cp doctrine, you're talking about 8.6 expected damage on a Predator... With 5 combi-flamers.

What do you think? I'll proxy them next game and see what happens.