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bullyboy wrote: With the reduction of the CP farm (still not horrible though), will people look at other warlord traits other than Lore of Hidden Knowledge? The above TH/SS Captain with Castellan of the Black Vault seems pretty tasty making that TH Damage 4. Man do I wish our characters could take Heavy Thunder Hammers, even a Blackshirt would be cool. Shame they are restricted to 2 attack models only.
Still hard to lose Hidden Knowledge though as I like the additional reroll (plus strategem) in case I roll low for storm shield saves on a kill team. Nice to be able to reroll twice in a turn.
I use castellan of the black vault exclusively with my watch master. Nice that it effects the shooting and cc profile of his weapon and I give him the time so he boosts my units towards to types of enemy at any given time. I still haven't seen anywhere where dedicated troop transports have been clarified for which of our tactics effects them. Seems like an unfair loophole that goes against our army design. Why can I get to reroll against some big bad tank but not a rhino or raider?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 13:57:53
Hesselhof wrote:I still will use my 2 hammer captains one with hammer + shield and one with hammer and stormbolter with bane bolts, it´s still a close combat monster^^
No dispute there. He's just a bit less flexible tactically for taking on the bigger things since screens can bog him down. Have to punch through that screen first, which admittedly DW is pretty bloody good at. He's still as strong as ever once you get him where he needs to be, but now that's just a tad bit harder to do.
bullyboy wrote:With the reduction of the CP farm (still not horrible though), will people look at other warlord traits other than Lore of Hidden Knowledge? The above TH/SS Captain with Castellan of the Black Vault seems pretty tasty making that TH Damage 4. Man do I wish our characters could take Heavy Thunder Hammers, even a Blackshirt would be cool. Shame they are restricted to 2 attack models only.
Still hard to lose Hidden Knowledge though as I like the additional reroll (plus strategem) in case I roll low for storm shield saves on a kill team. Nice to be able to reroll twice in a turn.
Absolutely agreed here. I think it makes Lord of Hidden Knowledge a bit less powerful compared to the others, which means it's a tough choice on what to pick up. Not sure you're using that reroll properly, though. Can only use it on the warlord.
I use castellan of the black vault exclusively with my watch master. Nice that it effects the shooting and cc profile of his weapon and I give him the time so he boosts my units towards to types of enemy at any given time. I still haven't seen anywhere where dedicated troop transports have been clarified for which of our tactics effects them. Seems like an unfair loophole that goes against our army design. Why can I get to reroll against some big bad tank but not a rhino or raider?
Always felt like an oversight, and I'm surprised it hasn't been clarified in the FAQ...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So let's try and get some talking about the FAQ. Few key things for me personally were:
1. The clarification for the anti-Tau Stratagem was pretty cool.
2. For those of us with camping Stalker Vets and footslogging Fortis teams, the cover Stratagem is expensive BUT super valuable.
3. We will definitely be dealing with less Slamguinus flying around, making any Infantry we were bringing much better at helping screen our dudes.
4. Still no reason to use Dragonfire rounds once more.
Pretty much sums it up. All infantry are better at bubble wrap and screening for characters now. Small thing, but teleportarium use just to protect the Dreads from alpha, but still use them turn 1 (an uncommon strategy) is gone.
All in all, mostly the same. Our own version of smash caps aren't as efficient now, but they couldn't really hold a candle to the insanity of the slamfether, supreme Lord of slamming anyway.
Honestly our version never made me impressed anyway, so I think we will see them switched out for footslogging for the pure rerolls or with the Jump Pack just to give rerolls to anything that will Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: With the reduction of the CP farm (still not horrible though), will people look at other warlord traits other than Lore of Hidden Knowledge? The above TH/SS Captain with Castellan of the Black Vault seems pretty tasty making that TH Damage 4. Man do I wish our characters could take Heavy Thunder Hammers, even a Blackshirt would be cool. Shame they are restricted to 2 attack models only.
Still hard to lose Hidden Knowledge though as I like the additional reroll (plus strategem) in case I roll low for storm shield saves on a kill team. Nice to be able to reroll twice in a turn.
I think we can start considering using The Watch Eternal (for those of us using Fortis teams) and Nowhere to Hide (ignoring cover once per turn is okay I guess?)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 16:04:18
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Hesselhof wrote:I still will use my 2 hammer captains one with hammer + shield and one with hammer and stormbolter with bane bolts, it´s still a close combat monster^^
No dispute there. He's just a bit less flexible tactically for taking on the bigger things since screens can bog him down. Have to punch through that screen first, which admittedly DW is pretty bloody good at. He's still as strong as ever once you get him where he needs to be, but now that's just a tad bit harder to do.
bullyboy wrote:With the reduction of the CP farm (still not horrible though), will people look at other warlord traits other than Lore of Hidden Knowledge? The above TH/SS Captain with Castellan of the Black Vault seems pretty tasty making that TH Damage 4. Man do I wish our characters could take Heavy Thunder Hammers, even a Blackshirt would be cool. Shame they are restricted to 2 attack models only.
Still hard to lose Hidden Knowledge though as I like the additional reroll (plus strategem) in case I roll low for storm shield saves on a kill team. Nice to be able to reroll twice in a turn.
Absolutely agreed here. I think it makes Lord of Hidden Knowledge a bit less powerful compared to the others, which means it's a tough choice on what to pick up. Not sure you're using that reroll properly, though. Can only use it on the warlord.
I think the only requirement is for the warlord to be on the table, the reroll does not specify for him.
Yeah the free re-roll works for anyone in the army. It is not specific to the warlord in any way.
As for warlord traits I still think the lord of hidden knowledge will be the go to pick. Getting that extra re-roll can be clutch and getting as many CPs as possible is extremely useful for a DW army.
My feelings on the warlods goes as follows
Bane of Monstrosities: It's ok. Your warlord is someone you don't necessarily want in combat so having them fighting a monster of vehicle can be pretty dangerous. However on a watch master this does make him a very, very scary prospect against vehicles especially. He has his the special ammo strat, a clavis, the relic clavis and the clavis strat to really put a hurting on anything. Kinda niche.
Lord of Hidden Knowledge: I still think it's the go to for the reasons I outlined above. It's reliably going to give you just a few more command points plus having the ability to double re-roll (Once from the warlord and once from the strat) can be a massive deal.
Castellan of the Black Vault: Power fist with auxiliary melta gun or watch master bolter cane really benefit from this. The Watch Master really will see this pay off when he is shooting D3 bolter shots and doing d3+1 in melee. It's a fun one and something I'd like to try, but I don't think it's going to be the pick.
The Watch Eternal: You ignore the LAST wound lost on a 6+.... MEH. If this was a per wound aura I think it would be a legit pick doubly so for Primaris heavy builds. Due to it only working on the last wound lost I think it's a pass.
Vigilance Incarnate: YOu can change your mission tactic once per game with this warlord trait or spend one CP if your warlord is a watch master (which it probably will be). Yeah this is a hard pass. Why would you ever take this over the lord of hidden knowledge? Might as well not even be in the book.
Nowhere to Hide: It's a situational pick. You can pick one unit and ignore it's cover. With the new stratagem to gain cover turn 1 if going second I could see this being used or to counter cover stacking units. It's pretty situational, but not worthless.
Overall I lord of hidden knowledge still seems to be the best pick. It has some clutch capabilities and every single command point is precious in DW. Watch eternal would have been a viable pick if it worked for every wound lost.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/01 17:45:33
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly our version never made me impressed anyway, so I think we will see them switched out for footslogging for the pure rerolls or with the Jump Pack just to give rerolls to anything that will Deep Strike.
His worth in a Deathwatch army is definitely inflated due in large part to the lack of reliable, cost effective anti-tank options.
bullyboy wrote:
I think the only requirement is for the warlord to be on the table, the reroll does not specify for him.
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Yeah the free re-roll works for anyone in the army. It is not specific to the warlord in any way.
My apologies, I was referencing it from memory and a wiki (codex isn't nearby) and messed it up. Sorry!
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Bane of Monstrosities: It's ok. Your warlord is someone you don't necessarily want in combat so having them fighting a monster of vehicle can be pretty dangerous. However on a watch master this does make him a very, very scary prospect against vehicles especially. He has his the special ammo strat, a clavis, the relic clavis and the clavis strat to really put a hurting on anything. Kinda niche.
Definitely a Watch Master heavy trait as you outlined. Encourages a certain playstyle for your Watch Master and can pay dividends really early. I often feel like Lord of Hidden Knowledge encourages passively playing your Watch Master to maximize CP regen over the entire game, which kind of wastes his potential. This is like..the exact opposite of that passive playstyle and is probably a lot riskier than folks like.
Which is why I absolutely enjoy it. Go big or go home, says my Watch Master.
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Lord of Hidden Knowledge: I still think it's the go to for the reasons I outlined above. It's reliably going to give you just a few more command points plus having the ability to double re-roll (Once from the warlord and once from the strat) can be a massive deal.
The chance at CP is definitely nice, but I think it's not as clear cut a winner as before. I may be misremembering (like last time lol), but I was also under the impression that a dice result could only ever be re-rolled once. Am I mistaken here?
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Castellan of the Black Vault: Power fist with auxiliary melta gun or watch master bolter cane really benefit from this. The Watch Master really will see this pay off when he is shooting D3 bolter shots and doing d3+1 in melee. It's a fun one and something I'd like to try, but I don't think it's going to be the pick.
Not entirely certain the powerfist/meltagun would benefit from this - but I'm not sure. They're two different weapons with independent profiles, no? Whereas the Watch Master weapon or combi-weapons are single weapons with multiple profiles. I'd probably just use it on the combi-melta profile for that guy anyway, personally.
It is definitely a ton of fun for the WM, though. I absolutely love this one. Can't go wrong with this one - more damage is never situational, and unlike Bane of Monstrosities, it pays dividends early and doesn't require you to be super risky.
Tibs Ironblood wrote:The Watch Eternal: You ignore the LAST wound lost on a 6+.... MEH. If this was a per wound aura I think it would be a legit pick doubly so for Primaris heavy builds. Due to it only working on the last wound lost I think it's a pass.
Absolute pass. My experience with it is that it saved a single marine. The range is too small and the effect too little to make an impact. Disappointing one overall.
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Vigilance Incarnate: YOu can change your mission tactic once per game with this warlord trait or spend one CP if your warlord is a watch master (which it probably will be). Yeah this is a hard pass. Why would you ever take this over the lord of hidden knowledge? Might as well not even be in the book.
Well, think of it this way, can the Lord of Hidden Knowledge reroll be considered basically a free CP since it's basically a free command re-roll? I think it can.
Which means this is a free CP under similar, though more limited circumstances. This also works for those builds that focus on the Watch Master being a monster/vehicle hunter with Clavis, Tempest, and the Key but placing the Warlord trait on a different model to avoid giving up those points. Niche, definitely, but I wouldn't say it's an absolute hard pass. Different style, and probably riskier.
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Nowhere to Hide: It's a situational pick. You can pick one unit and ignore it's cover. With the new stratagem to gain cover turn 1 if going second I could see this being used or to counter cover stacking units. It's pretty situational, but not worthless.
Agreed here.
All in all, there appears to be a lot of really decent ones now, though Lord of Hidden Knowledge will of course be the preferred one on the competitive side of things and is the best for risk averse Watch Masters. It's also clearly the most flexible - it's easiest to make an impact with no matter what is happening, which means it's one less thing you need to manage.
But I wouldn't sleep on Bane of Monstrosities, Castellan, or even Vigilance Incarnate for a mostly different approach to your Warlord's role in the army.
Actually it's not a bad thing The Watch Eternal ignores just the last wound. Primaris are gonna be hit by multi-damage weapons.
That said I just realized it probably only affects models in the aura rather than units so...
For fun I'll probably do a Captain with a Storm Bolter and the Combi-Fist-Melta. Choose the Banebolts and then the Castellen for the fist. Makes him mildly dangerous in shooting I guess.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
For fun I'll probably do a Captain with a Storm Bolter and the Combi-Fist-Melta. Choose the Banebolts and then the Castellen for the fist. Makes him mildly dangerous in shooting I guess.
That's actually a really nice Terminator Watch Captain.
4 shots with the SB using SIA and having 2 damage plus possible Mortal wounds, and then the meltagun doing D6+1 damage, and the fist doing D3+1 damage. I do have the fist/melta in my box as I felt it too expensive for regular terms. Nice.
For fun I'll probably do a Captain with a Storm Bolter and the Combi-Fist-Melta. Choose the Banebolts and then the Castellen for the fist. Makes him mildly dangerous in shooting I guess.
That's actually a really nice Terminator Watch Captain.
4 shots with the SB using SIA and having 2 damage plus possible Mortal wounds, and then the meltagun doing D6+1 damage, and the fist doing D3+1 damage. I do have the fist/melta in my box as I felt it too expensive for regular terms. Nice.
I'm probably gonna just use a Combi-Weapon and a Fist as my stand-in. None of the Bolters in my Deathwatch lists are actually Bolters so it'll be consistent.
Speaking of Bolters, let's talk Shotguns. How much of a price cut do you think they would need to be viable?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 185pts]
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor Sergeant
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
++ Total: [121 PL, 1998pts] ++
For the next time i will put the aggressors into a intercessor squad and will split them and DS only the aggressor for the objectiv secure, i simply forgot this for now ^^ and i cant change this for now because i send this list to my opponet XD
The libby and hammer captain will DS in Round 2, SB Vet squad and Levi too. Depending on what mission and deployment zone either the Hellblaster or Aggressor are going to DS.
You can only split your squad of Intercessors & Agressors during the deployment or at the begining of your turn with the stratagem (Tactical flexibility). You can't split your squad when deep striking (at the end of the movement phase).
I have never been interested in the trait before but now looking at it post FAQ there may be a little usefulness in The watch Eternal as some suggested. It would be a castle type list however.
Watch captain with Dominus Aegis and Watch eternal trait. He would then confer a 5++ and a kind of 6+ fnp to models nearby. It seems stalker vets and regular bolt rifle intercessors would be good for this. I'd place as much in cover as possible and maybe use the new cover strat if I go second. I'd even place the repulsor and a redemptor nearby to benefit from the invul bubble. I will probably try it since I regularly play against dark lance weilding DE and Harlequins that I couldn't hope to outmaneuver.
The aggressors and watch master will advance and shoot whatever with the frag cannons DS where needed. The rest will castle up and shoot everything possible. Repulsor may be a good candidate for using the shoot a flying aeldari a unit strat coupled with the Icarus weapons and appropriate +1 wound strat.
For fun I'll probably do a Captain with a Storm Bolter and the Combi-Fist-Melta. Choose the Banebolts and then the Castellen for the fist. Makes him mildly dangerous in shooting I guess.
That's actually a really nice Terminator Watch Captain.
4 shots with the SB using SIA and having 2 damage plus possible Mortal wounds, and then the meltagun doing D6+1 damage, and the fist doing D3+1 damage. I do have the fist/melta in my box as I felt it too expensive for regular terms. Nice.
I'm probably gonna just use a Combi-Weapon and a Fist as my stand-in. None of the Bolters in my Deathwatch lists are actually Bolters so it'll be consistent.
Speaking of Bolters, let's talk Shotguns. How much of a price cut do you think they would need to be viable?
Built my term Capt this morning with SB and PF/meltagun
As for shotguns, I usually take 1 in a sqd now just because, but no idea why they think they're worth 3 pts. 1 or 2pts would be fine IMHO.
grouchoben wrote: Aegis dominatus isnt worth it anymore. It's mainly for losing initiative, and the strat is just plain better now. I used it a lot for my assbacks.
I think you can still make a case for it, but it definitely lost value as a T1 defense for guys on the ground.
That makes me think on the matter that we don't really have any relics that are "must take" now.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
grouchoben wrote: Aegis dominatus isnt worth it anymore. It's mainly for losing initiative, and the strat is just plain better now. I used it a lot for my assbacks.
I think you can still make a case for it, but it definitely lost value as a T1 defense for guys on the ground.
That makes me think on the matter that we don't really have any relics that are "must take" now.
The tome of ectoclades is an auto take. It adds so much versatility in it's aura.
@Lemondish - To double re-roll I am talking about is being able to re-roll two seperate single dice twice. Like say two wounds get through on your watch master each doing 3 damage. You fail both 4+ invulns. Normally you command point one and still fail. Normally you would be dead because you can't use that stratagem twice, but you could use your once a game warlord trait re-roll to re-roll the other save to try and keep your guy alive.
The warlord to swap for free really is just plain bad and useless. There is no logical reason you would ever take it over lord of hidden knowledge. At most it saves you 2 CPs (that is it's cap if a watch master is not your warlord and only saves you one CP if he is) where as the lord trait will automatically give you one re-roll and fairly reliably give you back one CP each battle round. It's quite possibly the worst warlord trait I can think of.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 20:09:58
Agreed - I used to take the Aegis plus either tome or beacon. Now it's a lot more straight forward - I take em both!
I agree that aegis is still viable on some builds Slayer, but it's just that its main boon is done much better now by the strat. I guess a backfield castle with a cap babysitter could still be a good place for it?
So I looked at how many vets I have spare to build....roughly 11, but could add a few more with other marine bodies. So what to build?
I still have 2 frag cannons on sprue, plenty of HTHs, 8 stormbolters, 4 stormshields, shotguns galore, HBs, Infernus HBs, etc.
Depends what you already have. Personally, if they were my only 11, I'd build 5-6 with SB & Chainsword, 2 with frags, 2-3 with SB & SS, and a blackshield with your fave CC weapon - SB & thunderhammer is sweet, if a bit expensive.
You could go for a second vet with a SB & CC as a sarg who, with your blackshield, would give you 6 decent swings in one squad. (I lean towards SB & poweraxe on these two.) With the CC stuff it's such a good idea to magnetise tho, as the 'best' loadout there varies so much according to you list, your points, and the current iteration of costs.
Sorry to say, leave the shotties on the sprue. Wish they were worth taking.
Finally, if you don't already have one or two, I'd slap a jump pack on one for a vangaurd vet, to let your guys retreat and fire.
I have quite a few jump pack dudes, some SS/PM, some lightning claw, one HTH, plus just plain old bp/cs
I have 2 shotgun troopers right now so don;t think I'll add anymore.
I really want to have a crack with HTHs (pun very much intended), but just not sure what is the right number and best delivery. I can't imagine more than 3 in a sqd, that's 90pts! maybe I should just stick them all in my van vets with a couple of SS dudes to soak incoming fire.
Make a couple of Blackshields and then the rest SBs (which I didn't knew I had, just found them)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/03 02:22:24
And I'm sure there's fear of a storm bolter increase. Sternguard are the only other power armour unit I can think of that can get them, but their baseline bolters are better.
3 points to double your offensive output with SIA seems too good to be true - let's hope it lasts (even though I greatly dislike storm bolters)
And I'm sure there's fear of a storm bolter increase. Sternguard are the only other power armour unit I can think of that can get them, but their baseline bolters are better.
3 points to double your offensive output with SIA seems too good to be true - let's hope it lasts (even though I greatly dislike storm bolters)
They're already 4 frickin points. Anymore than that and it would be totally unfair.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
bullyboy wrote: I have quite a few jump pack dudes, some SS/PM, some lightning claw, one HTH, plus just plain old bp/cs
I have 2 shotgun troopers right now so don;t think I'll add anymore.
I really want to have a crack with HTHs (pun very much intended), but just not sure what is the right number and best delivery. I can't imagine more than 3 in a sqd, that's 90pts! maybe I should just stick them all in my van vets with a couple of SS dudes to soak incoming fire.
Make a couple of Blackshields and then the rest SBs (which I didn't knew I had, just found them)
If you don't have any yet, I'd make them all up as SBs, some with SS, most with CS, and then one or two with a CC weapon that you dig.
And I'm sure there's fear of a storm bolter increase. Sternguard are the only other power armour unit I can think of that can get them, but their baseline bolters are better.
3 points to double your offensive output with SIA seems too good to be true - let's hope it lasts (even though I greatly dislike storm bolters)
They're already 4 frickin points. Anymore than that and it would be totally unfair.
The SB and CS loadout, which isn't even in the kit, is a point cheaper than the iconic boltgun and power sword combo. Sadly, that combo, despite making up a majority of the kit, is worse against almost every target than SB/CS. It's maddeningly annoying, personally. But the mere fact that you can make a single model fully twice as effective with 3 points might be seen as troublesome. Perhaps maybe not?
I have a dream that the iconic Deathwatch kits and wargear from the Corvus and Land Raider all the way down to the Heavy Thunder Hammer and boltgun/power sword combo will not just be viable options in the future, but decently competitive with other options for the cost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/03 12:06:32
Admech & Deathwatch
