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Deathwatch is fine unless you come up against eldar.... Like most marine armies

SoCal Open Results!

Deathwatch lists placed 27th, 46th, 47th, 162nd, and 163rd out of 171 lists.

Top list was from Mr. Evans with a bunch of mixed Veteran squads all with storm bolters, a couple Terminators in each, a Vanguard Vet too, and a bunch of storm shields. Allies were a Supreme Command Space Wolves detachment with Njal, a couple Rune Priests, and Murderfang (!!!) alongside an allied DA battalion with scouts, a Librarian, and a Lieutenant.

Another list was piloted by Mr. Woods: a heavy focus on Primaris with one Kill Team packing Aggressors and another with Plasma Inceptors. This was attached to a Dark Angels Batt with a Talonmaster, Sammy, scouts, and a DA Plasma Inceptor squad.

We discussed Mr. D'Amore's list already: Xiphons, Assassins, DW Terminator Hammer squad, and Primaris Kill Teams.

Out of the lower placed guys, only one had a list on BCP - Mr. Bratcher, sporting a Guard CP Battery, a single Culexus, and a couple really eclectic mixed Veteran squads. Also brought a Corvus, a Ven Dread, and a Bike squad. Seriously, this list had a lot of fun and cool looking units, even if they weren't too effective or points efficient. I'm seeing a heavy weapon Vet team with a Cyclone Terminator, stalkers, and missile launchers. Another one with a bike, a Terminator, and some Frag Cannons (probably for the Corvus). No Storm bolters on vets, very few storm shields at all.

In summary, this is a small sample size, but Primaris seem to do good work, and allies are common to plug DW weaknesses. Even with that being said, the storm bolter/shield Vet squads with Terminators to tank low AP shots are great still. Mr. Bratcher unfortunately finished really low, but I think it's important to note his list had a huge focus on traditional ranged anti-armour firepower from DW sources, relying heavily on missiles (from the Corvus, the Dread, and the heavy weapons vet team). I imagine in a meta where everybody needs to be able to kill a Knight, the Corvus and Dread were probably dead early on, and the extra points spent on the heavy weapon infantry meant less boots on the ground. Everyone else found different anti-armour solutions, usually through allies using psykers and allied strats/weapon options in place of DW ones. Some internal solutions included thunder hammers and psykers. His list was also the only Guard CP battery, though the cheap scout battalions in the other lists could qualify (even if they often included other key pieces). Mr. D'Amore had the most points committed to DW than any other list, and had those unique unit choices we mentioned on the last page. Mr. Evans, who placed highest, brought a unique mix of allies I don't think we see often. Not quite soup - more like meat and potatoes. Us Astartes need to stick together, after all But going DA instead of BA was an interesting choice, and not as common.

I'm still liking my primaris dw list with special guest star iks. I'm using an errant, because the thermal cannon is hilarious sometimes. Also, the deredeo is sneaky good AT as a dw unit.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm still liking my primaris dw list with special guest star iks. I'm using an errant, because the thermal cannon is hilarious sometimes. Also, the deredeo is sneaky good AT as a dw unit.

Do you play it with the Heavy 8 autocannons? And only one? How does it perform in an actual game?

Yeah I use the anvillus battery with the 5++ generator for his redemptor buddy. The list also has the errant and two helverins. It works quite well. People frequently target the helverins or IK first. I also use the ignore cover warlord trait for my DW, so it can do a lot of work on units that aren't immediately obvious. Against say mono DE or mono IG, I can deep strike all my infantry with the teleportarium. Pretty handy, that. 5 big targets plus primaris are pretty stingy on units lost in ITC format. It's working much better than I anticipated, really. But can't be replicated with marines, because SIA ammo and embedded aggressors are key.

I'm very curious as to what your exact list looks like. It seems like you're having okay success with Deathwatch, and we all know how bad your meta is.

ITC champion missions help some.

Errant w/relics based off opponent faction
Helverin
Helverin

Watch master w/book of doom
Primaris libby (someone have a better hq?)
Intercessors w/power sword
Intercessors w/power sword
Intercessors +3 dakka aggressors +2 bolter inceptors w/power sword
Redemptor w/gatlings
Deredeo w/anvillus battery and shield thingie.

After the faq, the new stratagem has helped a lot actually b/c I suck at going first. I've beat a lot of lists and fought eldar soup hard. Last eldar loss was 26-24.

It i see drukhari or ig, I pay to deep strike my infantry.

Castellans are not fun, but the nerf bat is coming.

You seem to be a fan of the Helverin. I can understand that.

It kills ravagers. And a ton of other annoying stuff.

Helverin ACs are indeed very nice.

And they're hawshroud, for maximum annoyance. Take that, cheesy ass Xenos.

Got the codex now...I see some crazy dmg potential with Hellfire rounds, and the other stratagem for 2D3 MW...Obviously nothing that will kill a Knight but cripple a T7 10+ wounds vehicle

Now I also know why people prefer the Deredeo with VenDreds...You can easily pick out and harass high T units to death/uselessness

I did some maths and just noticed that the Deathwatch may now be in great trouble against Orks as well, the probability of their 9" charge success is boosted to 57% with the buff of their new Ere We Go, so they can charge outside of the range of Heavy Flamer and "auto-hit" mode of Fragcannon shotguns with a much higher reliability. This also make our "anti Ork" stratagem more useless than before since they can avoid the most deadly overwatch weapons.

It looks like a squad of veterans all with stormbolters maybe the way to go in the future, go cheap, rely on SIA and just hope for the best enemy won't kill enough of the T4 Sv3+ leaving you without enough number of shots, the Frag Cannon is becoming even less worth for its points now, shame..........

What do you mean out of range for Shotguns?

Use embedded aggressors with watch master and tell orks come get some. Dont use the one wound guys

Martel732 wrote:
Use embedded aggressors with watch master and tell orks come get some. Dont use the one wound guys

Yeah, ok, a squad of Primaris kill team containing 4 Aggressors with Watch Master would have around 46% chances to kill 5 Orks or more, not counting other models contribution, good enough to make them fail a mid-ranged charge with the anti-Ork Stratagem. The Stratagem is not dead yet.

Yeah, lets switch to Primaris and forget about the old marines......


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What do you mean out of range for Shotguns?

I mean the "auto-hit mode" of the two weapons: Fragcannon and Deathwatch Shotgun, which I was once thought to be the best weapon to combine with the stratagem.

I never considered using the one wound dw guys. Too fragile.

Martel732 wrote:
I never considered using the one wound dw guys. Too fragile.

Storm Shields alleviate the issue a bit, but I don't bother with that because if someone wants a near 20 point model dead, it'll be dead haha
It's all about that initial strike the Vets can pull. Whether they live is a different story.

I play against a lot of smites, too. Nothing eats up those vets like smite. Also, bolt rifles with kraken ammo can reach out and touch annoying units without the need for deep strike.

Honestly I'm not terribly bothered by Smites anymore, as I predict it'll still be complained about and the beta rule will be official in Chapter Approved. Right now my list looks like:
Battalion:
Terminator Captain w/ Banebolts, Melta Fist and Black Vault Warlord Trait
Watch Master

5 Vets w/ Storm Bolters, 3 Vets w/ Frag Cannons, 1 Vanguard w/ Chainsword/SS, Terminator w/ Power Sword
5 Vets w/ Storm Bolters, 3 Vets w/ Frag Cannons, 1 Vanguard w/ Chainsword/SS, Terminator w/ Power Sword
5 Vets w/ Shotguns, 3 Vets w/ Frag Cannons, 1 Vanguard w/ Chainsword/SS, Terminator w/ Power Sword and Assault Cannon
5 Vets w/ Stalker Bolters
5 Vets w/ Stalker Bolters

Patrol
Watch Master
5 Intercessors w/ Auto Bolt Rifles and 1 Launcher, Aggressor
5 Intercessors w/ Auto Bolt Rifles and 1 Launcher, Aggressor

Loyal 32, with Lascannons in the Infantry, Cadian

Basically I already know Knights were hit with the CP regeneration change, and we know there's going to be a price hike. It's a solid amount of bodies with the only real weakness being much larger tanks. That's an issue with mostly pure Deathwatch anyway though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll probably switch out one of the Masters with a cheaper HQ and use the points for another Lascannon Infantry. As long as I keep them still I can get the Order for a full reroll to hit and that's good enough for me temporarily.

Martel732 wrote:
I never considered using the one wound dw guys. Too fragile.

Weird. My experience has been that Vets actually last much longer than my Primaris kill teams. There's not really any good super efficient weapon choice for killing mixed Vet squads the way there is for Primaris. The Primaris have zero reliable access to invulns and make 2 damage weapons super efficient against them. Seriously, Dissies cost less than an Intercessor, but can statistically kill 1 a turn guaranteed, while doing a third of that damage to a stormshield vet. Hell, even against each other, a 5 man squad of Vets with shields and storm bolters will kill two and a half times more Intercessors than the Intercessors will kill the Vets. The extra wound barely does anything these days. I like my Primaris kill teams, but they die quick to anything with even a modicum of AP.

Nothing beats guardsmen for eating smites, though.

Vs drukhari they all go in the teleportarium until the armigers knock out the ravagers.

Also my list has no one wound models, so I'm hurting one damage weapons effectiveness a lot. It's a slew list with option for extra skew via teleportarium.

Martel732 wrote:
Vs drukhari they all go in the teleportarium until the armigers knock out the ravagers.

Also my list has no one wound models, so I'm hurting one damage weapons effectiveness a lot. It's a slew list with option for extra skew via teleportarium.

Interestingly, that's only true for AP 0 and AP -1 when comparing Vets in power armour and storm shields directly to Intercessors. Any 1 damage weapon at AP -2 is killing Primaris at the same clip as it kills Vets with 3++. Anything past AP -2 is killing Primaris faster, plus they're dying in droves to anything that rocks multi-damage. But since most Vet squads include a couple Terminators to tank exactly those nil and low AP shots, you're getting a lot of the same benefits the Primaris give you with 2 wound troops for a huge portion of the damage that comes pouring in. Out of cover the opponent still statistically needs the following to kill both Terminators before those AP 0 and AP -1 shots even start hurting Vets:

144 str 3 AP 0 equivalent shots from BS 4+ units (you lose 4 Intercessors to the same firepower instead of just 2 Terminators),
72 str 4 AP 0 equivalent shots from BS 3+ units (you lose 4 Intercessors to the same firepower instead of just 2 Terminators),
54 str 5 AP 0 equivalent shots from BS 3+ units (you lose 4 Intercessors to the same firepower instead of just 2 Terminators),
36 str 4 AP -1 equivalent shots from BS 3+ units (you lose 3 Intercessors to the same firepower instead of just 2 Terminators),
27 str 5 to 7 equivalent AP -1 shots from BS 3+ units (you lose 3 Intercessors to the same firepower instead of just 2 Terminators).

That's a lot of firepower. Its pretty even on the amount of points lost against the cheaper more numerous weapon brackets, too - 4 Intercessors is 80 points, and 2 Terminators with power swords are 78. At the higher AP and str range, the Primaris wins out on the points efficiency. When the full Fortis Kill Team runs T5 majority, at about a 30 point premium above the vet squad (if we use your aggressor/inceptor squad as a guide), they end up equivalent to the Termies at str 4 Ap -1, but still lose more models at all other brackets until the Terminators die. It's a much smaller gap there, and in a vacuum that means once the Termies die, the gap goes the other way in favour of the Primaris, so major win there for Primaris.

But 40k isn't a vacuum - folks will have tools to kill heavy infantry, and the Vets can survive that more than the Primaris can. They also don't have to hide in the Teleportarium since they have access to better, cheaper transports.

Statistically, vets are more durable against more targets, are offensively more capable, and tend to run a tad bit cheaper than the Primaris options. The value of an extra wound is always inflated - both from GW's perspective and the players.

My meta is moving away from lots of AP because power armor is so bad, though. And it was the only thing I could think to do with my primaris marines.

I don't put marines in transports if I can help it.

I think a mix is the best list option. I like my barebones intercessors squads camping in ruins for that 2+/2w profile, sitting on back objectives. I like my vets with all the stormbolters leaping out and dakka'ing things in the face.

 grouchoben wrote:
I think a mix is the best list option. I like my barebones intercessors squads camping in ruins for that 2+/2w profile, sitting on back objectives. I like my vets with all the stormbolters leaping out and dakka'ing things in the face.

Absolutely. A mix is the best for most cases. I find Primaris to be great at hunkering down on top of objectives and I'd almost alwyas rather be deep striking or delivering Vets in transports. I'm not lucky enough to be in a static meta - everyone here wants to bust it wide open as often as they can. Its fun, but sometimes real maddening lol. Hard to gauge the efficacy of one's list if the competition keeps changing things up so often lol

Hah! Yeah, I'm locked into our local Chapter League: monofaction 2k games, preferably SM or CSM, sticking with the same faction. Man, it's been a hoot, and it's led to us all honing our lists to squeeze the pips. No big meta swings because we're all hunkered down in our respective Chapterhouses plotting and scheming

Lemondish wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
I think a mix is the best list option. I like my barebones intercessors squads camping in ruins for that 2+/2w profile, sitting on back objectives. I like my vets with all the stormbolters leaping out and dakka'ing things in the face.

Absolutely. A mix is the best for most cases. I find Primaris to be great at hunkering down on top of objectives and I'd almost alwyas rather be deep striking or delivering Vets in transports. I'm not lucky enough to be in a static meta - everyone here wants to bust it wide open as often as they can. Its fun, but sometimes real maddening lol. Hard to gauge the efficacy of one's list if the competition keeps changing things up so often lol

At my LGS we tend to play with a *lot* of terrain, such that keeping Fortis teams in cover is a quite easy. Midfield Interblaster teams (5x Ints + 5x Hellblasters) have been rock solid MVPs for the last several weeks. Backfield camping typically gets relegated to the supporting IG bodies who are tickling everything on the board with their mortars.

Couldn't stand the thought of just playing Primaris Deathwatch. Most of the interesting weapons are with the vets.

What would people's thoughts be if the Corvus was given POTMS?

 bullyboy wrote:

What would people's thoughts be if the Corvus was given POTMS?

Still overcosted for what it does. Drop it by 50, give it POTMS and the capacity to carry Primaris and *maybe* itd be worth running.