Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My rolling was not brilliant, plus I had to take the DDA's down at least one bracket at least, two turns had the Vault on 4 wounds, just it can still operate at full efficiency.

I also brought down the deceiver in turn two also.

TBH I expected my force to do better, dice was not with me as I recall rolling 20 something dice in one shooting turn and not getting a single 5/6 to wound :(

Guys, are we about to become a part of the meta?

The standard dakka/shield vet squad is now very competitively priced.

Each team clocks in at just over 200pts, can't be shut down by CC, is crazy tanky vs all damage except mortal wounds, and is a hard counter to lots of top units.

It's not really something I'm keen to try out, but it strikes me that a watchmaster, a jumpcap, 3 10-man dakka teams as per above, alongside two tank commanders, 3 mortar IS and a Castallan could be a serious contender for Imperial Soup top spot. What do you think?

 grouchoben wrote:
Guys, are we about to become a part of the meta?

The standard dakka/shield vet squad is now very competitively priced.

Each team clocks in at just over 200pts, can't be shut down by CC, is crazy tanky vs all damage except mortal wounds, and is a hard counter to lots of top units.

It's not really something I'm keen to try out, but it strikes me that a watchmaster, a jumpcap, 3 10-man dakka teams as per above, alongside two tank commanders, 3 mortar IS and a Castallan could be a serious contender for Imperial Soup top spot. What do you think?

Been running it for a few months...even before CA it was Competitive.

The Core should include:

At least 1 Jump Capt
3 Vet squads: Termy/Bike/vanvet SB/SS vets
AM Guard
Castellian

That is the basis of a Competitive Build. You can go from there
I run 4 Vet units and 2 Jump watch capts 1 has the relic becon , minimum AM and a castellian

Now i will tell you where your gonna struggle:
Knight armies (with Castellian)
Eldar

Mortals hurt. Its why i bring 2 Terminators and 2 Bikes per unit (i can absorb 4 mortal wounds per squad)
Facing other Knight armies with a Castellian can be an uphill battle if you lose your Castellian first and terrain is bad

Do you mean you've been running it in GTs and such? I mean that I think it's possible that we're about to become a common element in soup lists, and that people will start building for us a little bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And do you think 2 Tank Commanders is a solid choice for your AM batallion? The should get a free pass turn one in a lot of games.

 grouchoben wrote:
Do you mean you've been running it in GTs and such? I mean that I think it's possible that we're about to become a common element in soup lists, and that people will start building for us a little bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And do you think 2 Tank Commanders is a solid choice for your AM batallion? The should get a free pass turn one in a lot of games.

Absolutly. played in a total of 6 RTTs/GT with this setup. It works well with Practice.

I think the 2 tank Commanders are a decent choice now with the reduction in cost. Prior...not so much.

The core element to any "Competitive Build should be what i listed above and then go from there.

Use: Tank Commanders, Castellians,Gallants + Helverns, BobbyG and Sisters, Psyker Supreme Commands ect ect.

I like my core to consist of 4 10 man units of Vets. Depending on what i want to add will dictate how i build out those Vet squads but they will at least consist of SB/SS guys with at least 1 Termi 1 vanvet and 1 bikevet. I tend to leave the specialty weapons home and leave that to whatever additional Soup units i bring.

In a mono build i have found that Dreads with there new cost reduction helps them alot. Ven dreads, Mortis, Contemptors, Levis all do a great job of giving decent anti tank. I will admit that i still sneak in the Loyal 32 for CPs cause...why not

Great stuff, thanks zed.

Random decaffeinated and sleep deprived thought:

Quad-Autocannon Contemptor Mortis (+/- CML) vs. Helverins.

Minus the missiles the dread is cheaper (148 vs 172) with a similar defensive profile, better/equivalent accuracy (2+/3+ vs 3+) at slightly less offensive output and worse mobility.

But the first gets mission tactics, as well as synergy with DW HQs and strategems.

Agreed, Helverins would be to unlock superheavy detachment with another knight, I can't see a reason to take them anymore vs our great dreds!

Flat 3 damage on the armament and base 14" speed (Raven household superzooms not withstanding) are fantastic assets the Helverins bring though, especially if one plays a lot of Bike/VV subunits.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, I think its moreso a "im trying to avoid IKs" line of thought than anything else. But at the same time, if a list is just a boatload of Dreads is that any better?

Sterling191 wrote:
Flat 3 damage on the armament and base 14" speed (Raven household superzooms not withstanding) are fantastic assets the Helverins bring though, especially if one plays a lot of Bike/VV subunits.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, I think its moreso a "im trying to avoid IKs" line of thought than anything else. But at the same time, if a list is just a boatload of Dreads is that any better?

To be fair, it is a matter of principle that an army work without allies. They should be a compliment, not a crutch.

The buffs Dreads can get, along with that nice Aegis babysitter, make shooting Dreads worthy for consideration though. I was certainly relying on Helvirens until recently.

Sterling191 wrote:
Flat 3 damage on the armament and base 14" speed (Raven household superzooms not withstanding) are fantastic assets the Helverins bring though, especially if one plays a lot of Bike/VV subunits.

I don't really know where I'm going with this, I think its moreso a "im trying to avoid IKs" line of thought than anything else. But at the same time, if a list is just a boatload of Dreads is that any better?

Quad regular autocannons at BS2+ and in a captain aura do just .05 less damage on average vs regular vehicles than the helverin's cannons at BS3+, without even factoring in mission tactics. The Helverin's autocannons are also more random in their number of shots (upping the variability of their damage, which is generally bad) and in my experience at least there are more models in the current meta at W2 than W3, and W3 is the only number where D3 is more efficient than D2.

I can see the D3 being more of a liability than a strength compared to the W2 a lot of the time. Really, the helverin's only point for me is the mobility.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

To be fair, it is a matter of principle that an army work without allies. They should be a compliment, not a crutch.

True, and as someone who soups the bejeezus out of my other main army (Eldar of multiple flavors) it may sound a little weird for me to be going all mono-faction idealist, but here we are. I tend to get whimsical when I'm sleep and caffeine deprived.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


The buffs Dreads can get, along with that nice Aegis babysitter, make shooting Dreads worthy for consideration though. I was certainly relying on Helvirens until recently.

Thats kind of what has me looking at the non QuadLas CMortis configurations, since it doesn't need the Aegis.

the_scotsman wrote:

Quad regular autocannons at BS2+ and in a captain aura do just .05 less damage on average vs regular vehicles than the helverin's cannons at BS3+, without even factoring in mission tactics. The Helverin's autocannons are also more random in their number of shots (upping the variability of their damage, which is generally bad) and in my experience at least there are more models in the current meta at W2 than W3, and W3 is the only number where D3 is more efficient than D2.

I can see the D3 being more of a liability than a strength compared to the W2 a lot of the time. Really, the helverin's only point for me is the mobility.

Fair point, though the number of W5/W6 models that may be coming back into play post-CA might push that the other way.

I made the mistake of running the mathhammer numbers for a CML Rifle CMortis versus a Helverin and it aint pretty for the Helverin.

Yeah, there's the thing though: D2 is just as efficient (in terms of wounds lost due to overkill) as D3 against W5 and W6 - you lose 1 wound killing W5, no wounds killing W6.

D3 loses 1W of efficiency against every model of a W2 unit. D2 loses 1W of efficincy against every other model of a W3 unit.

The contemptor has lower damage on its gun, but it has higher BS (rerollable 2+ if you assume you'll have a captain, which you should) leading to more wounds.

An illustrative example: both vs Primaris, assuming captain aura on the Contemptor.

Contemptor: 2.59 dead primaris
Helverin: 1.77 dead primaris.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, there's the thing though: D2 is just as efficient (in terms of wounds lost due to overkill) as D3 against W5 and W6 - you lose 1 wound killing W5, no wounds killing W6.

D3 loses 1W of efficiency against every model of a W2 unit. D2 loses 1W of efficincy against every other model of a W3 unit.

The contemptor has lower damage on its gun, but it has higher BS (rerollable 2+ if you assume you'll have a captain, which you should) leading to more wounds.

An illustrative example: both vs Primaris, assuming captain aura on the Contemptor.

Contemptor: 2.59 dead primaris
Helverin: 1.77 dead primaris.

You can't just assume Captain benefit unless you're willing to do the same for Knights, which have a unit that confers the same kinda bonus yes?

The Knight Preceptor is a lot more expensive and less good, though.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The Knight Preceptor is a lot more expensive and less good, though.

Indeed. Cost/benefit wise the Cappy/WM does far better. IKs are an exception to the "compare with auras" rule of thumb.

And watchmaster with ectoclades buffs are exponentially better than any shooting buff available to IKs. Who isn't taking a watchmaster?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, there's the thing though: D2 is just as efficient (in terms of wounds lost due to overkill) as D3 against W5 and W6 - you lose 1 wound killing W5, no wounds killing W6.

D3 loses 1W of efficiency against every model of a W2 unit. D2 loses 1W of efficincy against every other model of a W3 unit.

The contemptor has lower damage on its gun, but it has higher BS (rerollable 2+ if you assume you'll have a captain, which you should) leading to more wounds.

An illustrative example: both vs Primaris, assuming captain aura on the Contemptor.

Contemptor: 2.59 dead primaris
Helverin: 1.77 dead primaris.

You can't just assume Captain benefit unless you're willing to do the same for Knights, which have a unit that confers the same kinda bonus yes?

I mean, in the context of a mainly Deathwatch list, I'm going to be taking captains, I'm not going to be taking 450 point preceptors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
And watchmaster with ectoclades buffs are exponentially better than any shooting buff available to IKs. Who isn't taking a watchmaster?

Me, I usually take Captains as my shooting support because if you start at BS2+ the reroll everything is identical to reroll 1s. And I want native deepstrike on my frontline support.

But the captain can take Ectoclades as well, no? Making him a discount Lieutenant+Captain rolled into 1. Nice if he's babysitting contemptors rather than vendreads because then there's no need at all for the shield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The real struggle is finding something worthwhile to do with that 4th HQ slot if you're talking about mono-DW, IMO.

Can't do just a brigade, because there's no cheap HS (could find some wonky FW thing I suppose, that might be a good option, but filling 3 FA and 3 Elites is a struggle as well) so you really want 4 HQs for 2 battalions.

1 backline captain is a real boon, or WM if you're going for BS3+ stuff. 1 termie captain to deep strike with the boys. 1 termie librarian with MOH and Null Zone, then...maybe a chaplain dread?

Contemptors, Deredeos and Leviathans all degrade, so if you're running them, WM is still the real deal. They also all have 5++ or better already, so you don't need an aegis cap to babysit them. I think ven dreads are the only dread that don't much prefer a WM. My Lev dread, for example, is still hitting 15 times on his lowest bracket with a WM.

For my 4th I usually run a second smash cap or a chap dread.

Contemptor Mortis dreads are HS, not Elite.

Anyone got any tips for 1750points? I find it hard to implement 2 battalions in a 1750k list...

Any tips what to do against Kastellan Robots (apart from Captain Smash)? They are an infantry killer and its hard to deal with them as they habe a 4++ save. Deepstriking a squad next to them is easier said than done as everything is screened with cheap skitarii units.

Also Also anyone got experience with Custodes allies (NOT! Dawneagle Bikes)? I thought of allying some Custodes Termies or better the standart infantry for the 2+/3++. Nothing very competitive but I think they look cool and I like elite style units/models/factions

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Anyone got any tips for 1750points? I find it hard to implement 2 battalions in a 1750k list...

Any tips what to do against Kastellan Robots (apart from Captain Smash)? They are an infantry killer and its hard to deal with them as they habe a 4++ save. Deepstriking a squad next to them is easier said than done as everything is screened with cheap skitarii units.

Also Also anyone got experience with Custodes allies (NOT! Dawneagle Bikes)? I thought of allying some Custodes Termies or better the standart infantry for the 2+/3++. Nothing very competitive but I think they look cool and I like elite style units/models/factions

If you're that against the Bikes for whatever reason, your points are best spent on the regular troops. 3 with a Spear and 1 with a Sword/Shield is decent enough for a squad, as you don't really need too many of the 3++ when everyone is sporting a 4++.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Anyone got any tips for 1750points? I find it hard to implement 2 battalions in a 1750k list...

Any tips what to do against Kastellan Robots (apart from Captain Smash)? They are an infantry killer and its hard to deal with them as they habe a 4++ save. Deepstriking a squad next to them is easier said than done as everything is screened with cheap skitarii units.

Also Also anyone got experience with Custodes allies (NOT! Dawneagle Bikes)? I thought of allying some Custodes Termies or better the standart infantry for the 2+/3++. Nothing very competitive but I think they look cool and I like elite style units/models/factions

If you're that against the Bikes for whatever reason, your points are best spent on the regular troops. 3 with a Spear and 1 with a Sword/Shield is decent enough for a squad, as you don't really need too many of the 3++ when everyone is sporting a 4++.

The Bikes are a GREAT unit and very strong but that exactly is the case...I dont want to lose my friends...not all of them at least
A BikeCaptain and a SmashCap would be just too strong. I want to use the Custodes more as a distraction Carnifex unit thats also cool. Doesnt have to be super competitive.

So, what are good FW Picks for DW?

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, what are good FW Picks for DW?

Tarantula sentry Guns make for a cheap FA option, and everyone knows how much I talk about the Heavy Bolter one.

Dread variants are always nice.

Sicarans (well at least the Autocannon variant; I can't speak for the others as I never mathed them) aren't terrible if you're looking for a legit battle tank.

Sicarans are nice, but suffer from the same issues as the Predator (T7, no PotMS, no Invuln).

IMO the interesting tank is the Deimos Vindicator, but post CA2018 clocking in at 185 points for a pseudo Fire Prism is quite pricey.

Chaplain dreadnoughts might be something to think about from FW for deathwatch. Unless I'm wrong, nothing stops them from getting SIA, so you'd get a character dread with 2 CCW arms, an invuln save, 8 SIA shots and a cute little strength buff for 164 points.

I kind of agree most vehicles seem terrible. Maybe the whirlwind hyperios for 120 points for a bit of anti-fly punch?

Something like the following for pure deathwatch:

Brigade detachment

Relic Blade Termie Captain
Standard captain (warlord: Ignores Cover trait, Relic: Lieutenanting For Dummies)
Terminator Libby

3x5 Vets with Stalker Boltguns
3x kill teams with 7 SS/SB vets, 1 maul/SB terminator, 1 double bolt pistol vanguard

Primaris Apothecary
2x Las/ML vendreads

3x Tarantula guns

Quadlas Mortis Contemptor
2x Whirlwind Hyperios with Hyperios Launchers

With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round

Versatilebeats wrote:
With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round

On paper seems workable. They're T8 platforms, but LoS is gonna play havoc with them, and variable shots with variable damage can get streaky damn quickly.

Versatilebeats wrote:
With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round

I mean...I guess theoretically they could take out a knight in one round? but then again, theoretically, so can any 4 lascannon shots - you just need to roll 4 6s for damage.

On average three exorcists cause 9.3 wounds to a knight in one round, if it doesn't decide to take advantage of any of the extra defenses that most knights use (bare minimum a 4++, usually a 3++.)

the exact same points spend on 2 quadlas contemptors and a barebones watch captain causes 16.1 damage to that knight.