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 kaiservonhugal wrote:
What do you think of the following?
DW Battalion:
Liiibbie with Jump Pack - WLT trait Lord of Hidden Knowledge
Watch Master (Warlord) Beacon
3 Vet Squads: 2 Termies SB, Power Maul, 1 VV 2x chain swords, 7 Vets with SB, SS

Astra Militatum Battalion
Valhallan
Commander
Commissar: Pietrov's Mk45
30 COnscripts
30 Conscripts
10 man Squad
2 Basilisks

Auxililary Super Heavy
House Krast
Crusader Knight: Storm Spear missile pod, Battle cannon, Avenger Cannon

Looks like every DW meta list except the loyal 32 became the loyal 75? Nothing really to talk about with the DW portion - pretty standard fare. A Knight is a Knight. The only interesting change to the cookie cutter netlist is the guard stuff, but this isn't a guard thread so I imagine you will find much better suggestions on that thread.

So, since DW have become a rising power in the new "meta" (although some have been playing them longer), it's interesting to notice the complete lack of frag cannons in people's lists. The one time staple of every DW list is now barley seen. So, does the additional vet with SB/SS at 20pts completely erase the need for a 25pt frag cannon?

I considered the cannon hard. If I had a way to deliver it I’d use it. I’d have to revamp entirely to include a Corvus and I don’t want to do that.

Have we basically abandoned Frag Cannons it seems? I'm still trying to run 3 in my squads but they're so frickin expensive ya know?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Have we basically abandoned Frag Cannons it seems? I'm still trying to run 3 in my squads but they're so frickin expensive ya know?

They are in a debatable states. They serve a quite versatile role, as they can both fire in high strength good AP mode or high volume auto hit mode, so it is the weapon to deal with tanks / monsters and do good overwatch against hordes or in theory do great work against Harlequins / Dark Eldar. But as what had said, they are expensive, and now it is quite tough for them to get into 8" to fire disperse mode. And given the buff many factions get giving their opponent a reliable charge distance of more than 8", so their overwatch value is quite low now.

I think it's a great weapon. It's just that ss/sb vets are now so competitively priced that every spare point that isn't going on more of them feels like a waste. That's the curse of hyper-efficient units right there, they tend to bleach out options. I still like one in a 5-man team personally - just 4 ss/sb and a frag - for cheap and cheerful vet goodness.

The earlier points increase was understandable, seeing as it was the best weapon vets could take, but now with the storm bolters getting a bit cheaper and with the bolter buff, the frag cannon could use a points decrease again.


Limit them to 1 per squad and bring them down to 20 points and we will see them on the table.

I typically had 2 per 8 man sqd, but thinking I may drop down to 1. They have always done work for me and if they are enough to force a >8" charge attempt, that's a good deal IMHO.

 bullyboy wrote:
I typically had 2 per 8 man sqd, but thinking I may drop down to 1. They have always done work for me and if they are enough to force a >8" charge attempt, that's a good deal IMHO.

That charge dissuasion is the entire reason I always run at least one. Very few things regardless of saves want to be taking 2d6 heavy flamer autohits

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
What do you think of the following?
DW Battalion:
Liiibbie with Jump Pack - WLT trait Lord of Hidden Knowledge
Watch Master (Warlord) Beacon
3 Vet Squads: 2 Termies SB, Power Maul, 1 VV 2x chain swords, 7 Vets with SB, SS

Astra Militatum Battalion
Valhallan
Commander
Commissar: Pietrov's Mk45
30 COnscripts
30 Conscripts
10 man Squad
2 Basilisks

Auxililary Super Heavy
House Krast
Crusader Knight: Storm Spear missile pod, Battle cannon, Avenger Cannon

It's very similar to what Stephen over at Vanguard Tactics runs with some variation, the guard contingent is a little different. Should work well enough.



I'm still a fan of Frag Cannons. Mainly take them for the flamer profile, the solid shots are more of a bonus and keeps them useful when you aren't at short range. I'm probably not running at max efficiency but I think it has tactical value.

What are some decent ranged anti-vehicle options for DW?
Specifically not mounted on vehicles (so no Dreads, Razorbacks, etc)

I'm trying to build a Troops & HQs only, no-vehicle list to deny anti-tank weapons their effectiveness, and ironically it leaves very few anti-tank options for my list.

So far, I am thinking Missile Launchers, Frag cannons and Termies with Cyclone MLs are the only options. I do like the Frag Cannons for the versatility, but with only 24" range and damage 2, it doesn't seem all that effective. Like at all

What am I missing? Or am I just going to have to have Hammers do all the anti-vehicle work?

-

Couple of questions.

1. Can I fit a grenade launcher in my 5 man primaris team (with a sarge) or does RAW require 5 dudes and a sarge?

2. Cheapest heavy support option to pay the leviathan relic tax? I think I've settled on a quad mortar at 85ish points to give me some non-LOS backfield shooting but if anyone has had success with anything else around that price point please let me know.

 Galef wrote:
What are some decent ranged anti-vehicle options for DW?
Specifically not mounted on vehicles (so no Dreads, Razorbacks, etc)

I'm trying to build a Troops & HQs only, no-vehicle list to deny anti-tank weapons their effectiveness, and ironically it leaves very few anti-tank options for my list.

So far, I am thinking Missile Launchers, Frag cannons and Termies with Cyclone MLs are the only options. I do like the Frag Cannons for the versatility, but with only 24" range and damage 2, it doesn't seem all that effective. Like at all

What am I missing? Or am I just going to have to have Hammers do all the anti-vehicle work?

-

Missiles and Plasma.

Massed plasma (either vanilla or combi-plas) synergize exceptionally with doctrine strategems and appropriate mission tactics. Against T7 they're wounding on rerollable 2s. Drop em in via deep strike at rapid fire range and gak melts.

CMLs still arent at a price point where they're viable IMO, as two vets with missiles are more efficient and redundant.

Honorable mention to the Storm Bolter Doctrine drop. 40 Vengeance shots with a +1 to wound aint nothing to sneeze at.

Unfortunately most of this goes sideways against a -1 to hit enemy, but them's the breaks if you're trying to go infantry only.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

bananathug wrote:
Couple of questions.

1. Can I fit a grenade launcher in my 5 man primaris team (with a sarge) or does RAW require 5 dudes and a sarge?

2. Cheapest heavy support option to pay the leviathan relic tax? I think I've settled on a quad mortar at 85ish points to give me some non-LOS backfield shooting but if anyone has had success with anything else around that price point please let me know.

It's not the cheapest, but a Contemptor Mortis is about as points efficient as one gets in a shooting platform, plus it comes with a baked in 5++ and 2+ BS.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
What are some decent ranged anti-vehicle options for DW?
Specifically not mounted on vehicles (so no Dreads, Razorbacks, etc)

I'm trying to build a Troops & HQs only, no-vehicle list to deny anti-tank weapons their effectiveness, and ironically it leaves very few anti-tank options for my list.

So far, I am thinking Missile Launchers, Frag cannons and Termies with Cyclone MLs are the only options. I do like the Frag Cannons for the versatility, but with only 24" range and damage 2, it doesn't seem all that effective. Like at all

What am I missing? Or am I just going to have to have Hammers do all the anti-vehicle work?

-

Missiles and Plasma.

Massed plasma (either vanilla or combi-plas) synergize exceptionally with doctrine strategems and appropriate mission tactics. Against T7 they're wounding on rerollable 2s. Drop em in via deep strike at rapid fire range and gak melts.

CMLs still arent at a price point where they're viable IMO, as two vets with missiles are more efficient and redundant.

Honorable mention to the Storm Bolter Doctrine drop. 40 Vengeance shots with a +1 to wound aint nothing to sneeze at.

Unfortunately most of this goes sideways against a -1 to hit enemy, but them's the breaks if you're trying to go infantry only.

Thanks. I've actually got 1 VenDread that can be equipped with Twin-Las/ML but if that's the only vehicle in the list, it's kind of a big target.

With the right terrain/Deployment, would it still be worth putting it in a list with all Vets? Try to hide it turn 1 and move out to target a vehicle for deletion?

-

 Galef wrote:

Thanks. I've actually got 1 VenDread that can be equipped with Twin-Las/ML but if that's the only vehicle in the list, it's kind of a big target.

With the right terrain/Deployment, would it still be worth putting it in a list with all Vets? Try to hide it turn 1 and move out to target a vehicle for deletion?

-

Personal opinion: not really. Armor in general is a target saturation game.

With the way combat squadding works for Deathwatch you can get a heavy weapons team of two missiles and three SB/SS vets for a comparable price point. Yes you're gonna lose the S9 and BS 2+, but with WM support you've got similar accuracy, the capacity to camp out in cover for a 2+ save and the ever important 3++ ablative wounds is far more important.

It's the configuration I use for my backfield objective campers, while their other half in Biker/VanVet teams skirmish midfield. They dont let me down.

I think my issue right now is that I need 6 Troops to get 2 Battalions, so Combat squadding is not really an option.

-

You bring up my primary issue with Deathwatch. I WANT to run a lot of troops. However, the expensive HQ choices prevent me from doing so.

I have a side question about anti-vehicle options:

In my 2 Battalion DW list, I am also taking a Command detachment for Jetbike Shield Capts, because why not.
They normally have Hurricane Bolters, but the Salvo Launcher has a Melta option that is basically a Mulit-Melta with reroll to wound against vehicles instead of the normal Melta rule.

While I think the Hurricane bolters are usually the best option for them, with my list having tons of SIA SBs and little in the way of anti-tank at range, would it be worthwhile to give my Sheild Captain Salvo Launchers instead?

-

I definitely don’t like the idea of only bringing 1 dread, I think you need a few or 0. Since discussing all infantry ideas, did you see mine on the bottom of the prior page(72)? I thought about vets with 2 mls, but decided to try using vanilla devs instead. Not troops, but cherubs up their mortal potential and gets some scouts too.

bort wrote:
I definitely don’t like the idea of only bringing 1 dread, I think you need a few or 0. Since discussing all infantry ideas, did you see mine on the bottom of the prior page(72)? I thought about vets with 2 mls, but decided to try using vanilla devs instead. Not troops, but cherubs up their mortal potential and gets some scouts too.

I ussualy add an Patrol of SM for my Deatwatch ( Libby, scouts and a Devastator unit with HB and ML for MW, and also I add units to my Army without taking IG because I don't want them In my colection. Sometimes instead of a patrol I add a Deteachment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You bring up my primary issue with Deathwatch. I WANT to run a lot of troops. However, the expensive HQ choices prevent me from doing so.

A kingdom for DW techmarines

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You bring up my primary issue with Deathwatch. I WANT to run a lot of troops. However, the expensive HQ choices prevent me from doing so.

A kingdom for DW techmarines

I have a feeling GW is holding out until they release a Primaris Techmarine and then DW will get access to just them like how it now works with the Apothecary.

Seems likely. I have no idea what they decide to pick/leave for army balance, but fluff wise DW should have techmarines, right? They have every other role and need their stuff maintained. But once you pay the primaris premium aren’t you looking at similar to a chaplain? I don’t have either cost in front of me.

Galef, DW are probably the worst Marines for infantry-based-AT in the game*. We don't get lascannons, plascannons, cherubs or nuffin. Frag at close range and missile launchers ain't going to cut it against a mech/knight list. Hellblasters are great, can be embedded in intercessor squads, and can deepstrike, AND get access to +1 to wound strats. However, they get countered by minus to hit factions, making your lists very rock paper scissors. Beacause of the above, and beacon, they can drop close though, to turn off the classic 12" minus, so there's that.


* After GKs, of course. Almost feels like that doesn't need saying anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yeah, souping in Knights, AM or using dreads, especially FW ones, are really your best option imo. I know it's not what you wanted to hear.

In-universe Techmarines are the ones operating and maintaining the Rhinos, Corvii, etc.

And right now the Primaris markup is only about 5 points on HQs.

But you know they’re gonna build in a mandatory servo harness... :p

Sterling191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You bring up my primary issue with Deathwatch. I WANT to run a lot of troops. However, the expensive HQ choices prevent me from doing so.

A kingdom for DW techmarines

They wouldn't be such a bad deal as all the Bolt weapons they carry would be SIA at BS2+. At least to fit in minimum requirements I wouldn't be apprehensive as I would be with any other Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I have a side question about anti-vehicle options:

In my 2 Battalion DW list, I am also taking a Command detachment for Jetbike Shield Capts, because why not.
They normally have Hurricane Bolters, but the Salvo Launcher has a Melta option that is basically a Mulit-Melta with reroll to wound against vehicles instead of the normal Melta rule.

While I think the Hurricane bolters are usually the best option for them, with my list having tons of SIA SBs and little in the way of anti-tank at range, would it be worthwhile to give my Sheild Captain Salvo Launchers instead?

-

The difference is usually neglibable in Rapid Fire range, but for an army like Deathwatch the rerolling to wound will make a world of difference in skewing lists with multiple Knights. Assuming you have enough anti-infantry with your Deathwatch (you already do), the Salvo is worth the cost.

Plus they really aren't much more than the Hurricane Bolter so it isn't like you need to dedicate a lot of points into it.

 grouchoben wrote:
Galef, DW are probably the worst Marines for infantry-based-AT in the game*. We don't get lascannons, plascannons, cherubs or nuffin. Frag at close range and missile launchers ain't going to cut it against a mech/knight list. Hellblasters are great, can be embedded in intercessor squads, and can deepstrike, AND get access to +1 to wound strats. However, they get countered by minus to hit factions, making your lists very rock paper scissors. Beacause of the above, and beacon, they can drop close though, to turn off the classic 12" minus, so there's that.


* After GKs, of course. Almost feels like that doesn't need saying anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yeah, souping in Knights, AM or using dreads, especially FW ones, are really your best option imo. I know it's not what you wanted to hear.

Thanx. I've decided to go with the Salvo Launchers on my Shield Captains. 3 Melta Missiles should help put some hurt on key vehicles.
I'm actually ok with not having tons of AT at range, I'm building my list to be up close and personal and 6+ Hammers should do well enough against most vehicles.

Speaking of up close and personal: Anyone have any fun stories or tactic using the Beacon Angelis?
I'm adding it to a Jump Captain and either dropping him in turn 2 or moving him up to use it Turn 1.
I have a unit with 3 SS/SB Vets, 2 Frag Cannons, a Terminator and a VV.

"Shunt" that unit into 12" range to use the shell rounds on a vehicle. SS and Termie should keep the unit alive (or at least a huge distraction) and prep the unit for a Turn 2 burn with the Frag rounds. Which may also deter getting charge, but just in case, the VV will allow them to fall back and still shoot.

Also like the idea of using the Beacon to "refuse flank". Set up 2 large units on each flank with the Capt either in the middle or in Reserve. Cap arrives/move to one flank and pulls the big unit on the opposite flank towards him. Now both large units are on the same side.

Thoughts?

-

I dunno because, to refuse flanking, I'm a VERY big fan of Tarantula Sentry Guns as you might've guessed. 37 points for a TL Heavy Bolter to plop basically anywhere is a pretty frickin good deal for an army that has a lot of expensive toys.

 grouchoben wrote:
Galef, DW are probably the worst Marines for infantry-based-AT in the game*. We don't get lascannons, plascannons, cherubs or nuffin. Frag at close range and missile launchers ain't going to cut it against a mech/knight list. Hellblasters are great, can be embedded in intercessor squads, and can deepstrike, AND get access to +1 to wound strats. However, they get countered by minus to hit factions, making your lists very rock paper scissors. Beacause of the above, and beacon, they can drop close though, to turn off the classic 12" minus, so there's that.


* After GKs, of course. Almost feels like that doesn't need saying anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yeah, souping in Knights, AM or using dreads, especially FW ones, are really your best option imo. I know it's not what you wanted to hear.

What are the minus to hit factions and are they a threat that weight of SIA fire can't solve?