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Balls Deathwatch can no longer benefit from new bolter rules when using SIA! Pain in the arse.

So Veterans forget how to be disciplined with their bolters when using SIA? GW can't get out of their own way sometimes.

Balance trumps fluff. As it should be. And it avoids an unnecessary painful nerf to stormbolters.

Want marksmen? Use Stalker Boltguns Vets.

Overall it's a buff to intercessors with autoboltguns. Also - this allows buffs to be made to space marines without making DW OP. It is a great fix.

 McGibs wrote:

"Page 72 – Veterans
Replace the Mixed Units ability with the following:
‘Mixed Unit: A unit of Veterans can contain models with
different Toughness characteristics. If this is the case,
use the Toughness characteristic of the majority of the
models in the unit when the enemy makes wound rolls
against it. If there is no majority, the Deathwatch player
can choose which of the values is used."

oh, derp. basic language eludes me after long plane flights.

The main thing this affects for me is Bike squads, was really nice double tapping at 30 inches. I honestly didn't really use Bolter disipline that much on vet squads. Really it just reverts us back to immediately after CA 2018, which is fine, we were good then, still good now.

At least now whenever other Marine players complain that Deathwatch are too good we can counter with the whole Bolter rule thing.

The thing that gets on my nerves is the fact you can't use beta bolters on adeptus astartes vehicles anymore. My Repulsor was loving it with 3 storm bolters... 18 shots from Gatling cannons, 2 lascannon shots 3 heavy stubber and on top of that krakstorm and 12 storm bolter shots!

Yeah, can we at least stop to feel bad for the Corvus ? Beta bolter was aiding it too, and now its back to well where it was. Which makes me mad because I love them. I pray each day for just giving it back the machine spirit. For the love of emperor and hate of the xenos.

Is this correct that i can still use rapid fire with my storm bolters and SIA without the new bolter rules in half range, like the core rules of rapid dire says?

Hesselhof wrote:
Is this correct that i can still use rapid fire with my storm bolters and SIA without the new bolter rules in half range, like the core rules of rapid dire says?

Why wouldn't you be able to? They are still rapid fire weapons. Can you still use rapid fire with Combi-plasma or plasma guns? (Yes, yes you can). They didn't change the weapon type or anything, so rapid fire works exactly how it always has.

This adds another line on the “what ammo do I use” matrix. I know classically a good rule of thumb was to use the ammo that gave you more shots, when one was in double tap range and the others were not. Is it worth shooting basic ammo at max range when you can bolter drill it? Against what targets? More relevant for the platforms that can always get the shots.

 Nevelon wrote:
This adds another line on the “what ammo do I use” matrix. I know classically a good rule of thumb was to use the ammo that gave you more shots, when one was in double tap range and the others were not. Is it worth shooting basic ammo at max range when you can bolter drill it? Against what targets? More relevant for the platforms that can always get the shots.

Probably just useful when shooting the weakest of chaff units, Gretchen, guard, etc. Anything better than T3 5+ is likely going to be better served with Hellfire or Vengeance, or obviously Kraken if you need the range.

Just like before though, sitting still with expensive DW squads will probably be a losing strategy, with a few exceptions.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

Just like before though, sitting still with expensive DW squads will probably be a losing strategy, with a few exceptions.

Indeed. Kill Teams want to be on the bounce and at medium to short ranges. Those that don't (Stalker boltgun + Missile) dont benefit from bolter discipline anyway.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

Just like before though, sitting still with expensive DW squads will probably be a losing strategy, with a few exceptions.

Indeed. Kill Teams want to be on the bounce and at medium to short ranges. Those that don't (Stalker boltgun + Missile) dont benefit from bolter discipline anyway.

Word of the wise. Deep strike kill teams and move them about the board like the tactical nuisance they are. I never really utilized the bolter discipline since I always push my deep striking kill teams into double tapping range of anything scary and tying up any chaff screen and tanks.

Another interesting thing to note is that Tome of Ectoclades can now extend mission tactics to any non-infantry/dreadnought deathwatch units, i.e. Fire Raptor or perhaps spartan assault tank re-rolling 1s to wound with 8 lascannons? This can be exploited very effectively and efficiently with jump captain.

 fr3ddy wrote:

Another interesting thing to note is that Tome of Ectoclades can now extend mission tactics to any non-infantry/dreadnought deathwatch units, i.e. Fire Raptor or perhaps spartan assault tank re-rolling 1s to wound with 8 lascannons? This can be exploited very effectively and efficiently with jump captain.

The Tome of Shootius Maximus has gotten hilariously more Shooty.

Also of note, FW Astartes Armor units inherit the <DEATHWATCH> keyword, so a cappy packing the tome is in essence a mini-Guilliman as their reroll 1s to hit aura will also work.

 Eldarain wrote:
So Veterans forget how to be disciplined with their bolters when using SIA? GW can't get out of their own way sometimes.

Maybe they're more disciplined with their SIA because it's expensive and limited, hence why they shoot less often.

As an aside, I'm going to be so irrationally annoyed by the consistent misuse of Bolter Drill as the name of the rule by everyone other than this Xeno loving user here. It's Bolter Discipline, you (other) heretics!

Lemondish wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
So Veterans forget how to be disciplined with their bolters when using SIA? GW can't get out of their own way sometimes.

Maybe they're more disciplined with their SIA because it's expensive and limited, hence why they shoot less often.

As an aside, I'm going to be so irrationally annoyed by the consistent misuse of Bolter Drill as the name of the rule. It's Bolter Discipline, you heretics!

Indeed this is an acceptable fluff explanation. We also would accept that shooting special ammo that isn't traditional bolt rounds throws off that discipline/training *just* enough (i.e. requires the wielder to use different training to use effectively) to not be compatible with Bolter Discipline.

So in addition to being a good change for eh health of the game, there are acceptable explanation to "fluff" away why it works the way it does. Ergo, good job GW.

-

Noticed this:

Page 95 – Teleportarium
Replace the second sentence with the following:
‘For each CP spent on this Stratagem you can set up either
one Deathwatch unit that only contains Infantry models
or one Deathwatch Dreadnought in a teleportarium
chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield.’


So no jumpack and bikers in a deepstriking squad? Or has that always been the case?

I think they’re allowed as it says to only count bikers and jet packs for transport purposes and to otherwise treat the whole unit as infantry? But then I’ve been wrong a lot before.

Skarsgard wrote:
Noticed this:

Page 95 – Teleportarium
Replace the second sentence with the following:
‘For each CP spent on this Stratagem you can set up either
one Deathwatch unit that only contains Infantry models
or one Deathwatch Dreadnought in a teleportarium
chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield.’


So no jumpack and bikers in a deepstriking squad? Or has that always been the case?

No bikes, but jump pack is still ok. Because in the Veteran entry, it explicitly says bikes lose the Infantry keyword. So yeah, can't deep strike veterans containing bikes I guess, not a huge issue but a stealth nerf none the less

 Continuity wrote:

Skarsgard wrote:
Noticed this:

Page 95 – Teleportarium
Replace the second sentence with the following:
‘For each CP spent on this Stratagem you can set up either
one Deathwatch unit that only contains Infantry models
or one Deathwatch Dreadnought in a teleportarium
chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield.’


So no jumpack and bikers in a deepstriking squad? Or has that always been the case?

No bikes, but jump pack is still ok. Because in the Veteran entry, it explicitly says bikes lose the Infantry keyword. So yeah, can't deep strike veterans containing bikes I guess, not a huge issue but a stealth nerf none the less

It explicitly says Bikers count as Bikers for purposes of transports and bolster disc. It then says they count as infantry for setup and movement.

Now with the castellan nerfed and RIS being capped at 4++, do you think we‘ll see more infantry lists? (3 big squads of Vets and maybe bikes).

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Now with the castellan nerfed and RIS being capped at 4++, do you think we‘ll see more infantry lists? (3 big squads of Vets and maybe bikes).

Maybe. Although I could just as easily see more vehicle heavy lists. Those lists that took a Castellan and might now look for alternatives might go with 2 Crusaders instead, or add some IG tanks.
In all, though I think it will be a wash for now. DW prefer to be mostly Infantry and prefer to face mostly Infantry. So we'll see.

-

Probably we will see Crusader plus Lemans. A Castellant know 100 points more and no more 3++ Ion shields, this is hard.

Maybe we will also see more Gallants.

There is a good chance you will still see a lot of Castellans. You will see more solo knight crusaders and gallants though. Will we see valiants? IDK.

A question for more competitive play:

Do you deepstrike all your VetSquads( whatever the loadout)? Or do you keep them in a bubble with the watchmaster?

Ive seen a lot of people just having 3 identical squads (mostly SS/SB combo) and no watchmaster.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
A question for more competitive play:

Do you deepstrike all your VetSquads( whatever the loadout)? Or do you keep them in a bubble with the watchmaster?

Ive seen a lot of people just having 3 identical squads (mostly SS/SB combo) and no watchmaster.

DS a jumpack Captain near them.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
A question for more competitive play:

Do you deepstrike all your VetSquads( whatever the loadout)? Or do you keep them in a bubble with the watchmaster?

Ive seen a lot of people just having 3 identical squads (mostly SS/SB combo) and no watchmaster.

Both?

Personally I have a Jump Captain with the Beacon move up (possible Advance if needed) and pull a specific unit forward T1.
The Watchmaster tries to stay in the middle of as many units and I try to trail models back to keep in his aura.
That is what makes mixed units so fun IMO. Have a Bike per unit to zip close for Assaults, a could VVs to string the coherency back to the rest of the unit and possible a Terminator in the rear to stay within the WatchMaster's aura

-