DEATHWATCH in 8th

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**Galef**

But...Inceptors.....Plasma....fall back and shoot.....

These are not good things?

Also, I am commited to the Flamstorm guntlets because those are the affordable easy-build option I already own. I get what you are saying about the Bolts from a purely competitive sense, but for me, there are real-world things to consider and the Flamers are good enough AND FUN (Bolts are boring), that I'm willing to drop a smidge of competitiveness for them

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**Slayer-Fan123**

Flamegressors only do anything when you're regular Marines and get the -1AP bonus with the 3" Chapter Tactic

**Sterling191**

Galef wrote:
But...Inceptors.....Plasma....fall back and shoot.....

These are not good things?
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They are. They're just not worth what Primaris pay for them in a standalone unit that outruns its support auras. The reason VanVets and Bikes are easy to slot into Vet teams is because they're roughly comparable in price to the Veterans themselves after accounting for wargear. Gravis lads clock in at 2-3x or more their Intercessor brethren. For cheap squads like you're trying to run, thats not a premium worth paying.

Versatility is nice, but its also a bit of a trap.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Sterling191 wrote:
Galef wrote:

BIKES aren't allowing in Primaris units, but I see what you mean.
Agree on the combat squad bit. I really like the idea of it, but it just doesn't seem to benefit the unit as much as just adding 1Agg/1Inceptor to a unit of 5 Intercessors.

But why are Flamstorms a "hard pass". The Bolt storm gauntlets are the hard pass IMO, because they do not get SIA. Granted, neither do the Flamestorms, but they do 26d auto-hits, which is more that 6-d6 shots from the Bolts. And having 5 ABRs with SIA should fill the Dakka need for the unit. The Flamers just offer something the unit doesn't get elsewhere.
Combined with the Inceptor, you can charge a unit, fall back and flame them, then be a charge deterrent since the 1 Aggressor would get 4d6 auto-hits in Overwatch.

Overall, I'm looking for a Primaris loadout that is an all-rounder to build the list around. I know TACs isn't the best approach for Marines competitively, but it's fluffy and I think DW Primaris come as close to standard "Movie-Marines" as you can get.

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Aggressors dont need SIA to murderize things (they would legitimately be broken if they had access to it). Weight of dice (and carefully applied +1 to wound stratagems) do the work. They also have a range bracket that means they can actually contribute to their squad after things like Beacon shunts or teleport strikes. Furthermore, Aggressor fists are their own charge deterrent for all but the most committed melee specialists. You do *not* want to eat 16 punches and 4 powerfists from an almost MSU team.

If you want an "all-rounder" Fortis unit, go 5x ABR +1 Bolter Aggressor. If you're dead set on combat squadding down to 5 man teams, go 6x ABR, 2x Reiver, 2x Bolter Aggressor and take an even 3/1/1 split.

Why in the world would you take Reivers? An extra shot is MUCH better than the stupid grenade or morale stuff.

**Sterling191**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Why in the world would you take Reivers? An extra shot is MUCH better than the stupid grenade or morale stuff.

It really isnt. Especially now that they self-stack.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Sterling191 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Why in the world would you take Reivers? An extra shot is MUCH better than the stupid grenade or morale stuff.

It really isnt. Especially now that they self-stack.

How do you figure? Nothing for morale really matters in the first place, and several armies do that stacking a LOT better.

**Sterling191**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

How do you figure? Nothing for morale really matters in the first place, and several armies do that stacking a LOT better.

Forcing CP burns, causing vee squadrons to run, adding synergy to abilities and psyker powers that key off leadership. It's well worth the one point and one bullet investment.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Sterling191 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

How do you figure? Nothing for morale really matters in the first place, and several armies do that stacking a LOT better.

Forcing CP burns, causing vee squadrons to run, adding synergy to abilities and psyker powers that key off leadership. It's well worth the one point and one bullet investment.

You're not serious are you? For a shooting squad it's a terrible investment, especially when they don't have the weight of attacks for the price even WITH Shock Assault.

**Sterling191**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You're not serious are you? For a shooting squad it's a terrible investment, especially when they don't have the weight of attacks for the price even WITH Shock Assault.

It really isnt. Leadership shenanigans dont require a charge, and the combat squads put out 13/12 attacks plus four powerfists apiece at 114 points should you elect to go in. But you're more than welcome to continue to declare as such.

**Galef**

Have to agree with Slayer on this. Stacking or not, Morale shenanigans only work for Aeldari, who can get multiple units where they need to be to work.
But getting multiple 6"M Infantry near a unit that cares about Morale? That's pretty situational. Great if you can get it to work, but hardly worth building your army around.

The only "Reivers" I'll have in my squads will be the Powerfist Sgts because I like the look of the Reiver armour with a PF modeled on, but they will still be Intercessor where rules are concerned

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**Sterling191**

Galef wrote:
Have to agree with Slayer on this. Stacking or not, Morale shenanigans only work for Aeldari, who can get multiple units where they need to be to work.
But getting multiple 6"M Infantry near a unit that cares about Morale? That's pretty situational. Great if you can get it to work, but hardly worth building your army around.

The only "Reivers" I'll have in my squads will be the Powerfist Sgts because I like the look of the Reiver armour with a PF modeled on, but they will still be Intercessor where rules are concerned

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Who said anything about building an army around it? Its a literal 1 point per model investment on maybe two units.

**Galef**

It's more than a 1pt investment, since Reivers do not take the place on an Intercessor. It's a full 20pt addition (with Carbine) to the unit with 1 less shot than just adding another ABR Intercessor (which you wouldn't do anyway if making an MSU squad)

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**Slayer-Fan123**

Galef wrote:
It's more than a 1pt investment, since Reivers do not take the place on an Intercessor. It's a full 20pt addition (with Carbine) to the unit has 1 less shot than just adding another ABR Intercessor (which you wouldn't do anyway if making an MSU squad)

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I was gonna say that.

**Galef**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Galef wrote:
It's more than a 1pt investment, since Reivers do not take the place on an Intercessor. It's a full 20pt addition (with Carbine) to the unit has 1 less shot than just adding another ABR Intercessor (which you wouldn't do anyway if making an MSU squad)

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I was gonna say that.

Ya know what, I had to read back a few posts, but I think this is what he is referring to:

Sterling191 wrote:
If you're dead set on combat squadding down to 5 man teams, go 6x ABR, 2x Reiver, 2x Bolter Aggressor and take an even 3/1/1 split.

Which I guess makes some sense, but I'd still rather take 8 ABR Intercessors + 2 Aggressors for a 4/1 split in each unit

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**Slayer-Fan123**

It doesn't even make sense for that because the effective range for the squad won't work with the Reiver abilities. It's literally spending a point for a less effective unit.

**Sterling191**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It doesn't even make sense for that because the effective range for the squad won't work with the Reiver abilities. It's literally spending a point for a less effective unit.

The entire unit inherits the Reiver aura. Its not rocket science. But hey, please continue to have a cow over 1 point and 1 SIA attack.

Galef wrote:
It's more than a 1pt investment, since Reivers do not take the place on an Intercessor. It's a full 20pt addition (with Carbine) to the unit with 1 less shot than just adding another ABR Intercessor (which you wouldn't do anyway if making an MSU squad)

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Not if you're combat squadding (which you'll note is the ONLY situation I'm suggesting this for). 5x ABR Intercessors plus an Aggressor is 132 points. Squadded down 5-pack is 114.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galef wrote:
Which I guess makes some sense, but I'd still rather take 8 ABR Intercessors + 2 Aggressors for a 4/1 split in each unit
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Which is entirely your choice to not take a tool available to you. Just like you're not using a tool when you take flamer aggressors instead of bolter aggressors.

**Slayer-Fan123**

And we went over how bad Flamegressors are.

And it doesn't matter if the unit gets the aura. Regular Reivers are useless and got the aura, AND they have more means to get into range to use that and their grenade.
Nobody is clamoring towards them for a reason. It's a bad idea, period, especially with the lost extra shot.

**Galef**

Regarding the Inceptors in the unit: Does it change your opinion if there is a Jump Captain escorting 2/3 such units?

Part of my plan is to have 2 units with ABR Intercessors, 1 Agg, 1 Inceptor advancing forward and another Intercessor unit with Bolt Rifles being "Shunted" forward from the Jump Captain's Beacon.

By doing this, all units will certainly be within 6" of the Jump Captian to reroll 1s, if not also in range of my WatchMaster (who may also be Advancing to keep pace)

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**Sterling191**

Galef wrote:
Regarding the Inceptors in the unit: Does it change your opinion if there is a Jump Captain escorting 2/3 such units?

For clarity, we talking Plinceptors for killyness, or Boltceptors for mobility shenanigans? They're very divergent uses and I want to make sure I'm speaking to what you're specifically asking.

**Galef**

Sterling191 wrote:
Galef wrote:
Regarding the Inceptors in the unit: Does it change your opinion if there is a Jump Captain escorting 2/3 such units?

For clarity, we talking Plinceptors for killyness, or Boltceptors for mobility shenanigans? They're very divergent uses and I want to make sure I'm speaking to what you're specifically asking.

Sorry, Plasma. In addition to giving the unit Fall back & Shoot, I want the killyness. That's why I will either have them escorted by a Jump Captain until he gets to combat, or string them back to the Watch Master

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**Sterling191**

Galef wrote:
Sorry, Plasma. In addition to giving the unit Fall back & Shoot, I want the killyness. That's why I will either have them escorted by a Jump Captain until he gets to combat, or string them back to the Watch Master

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S'all good.

If you want killyness, they need to be their own squad, or stacked 2-3 at a time in Fortis teams coming out of deep strike. Sprinkling a few here or there only succeeds in getting expensive bullet catchers killed quickly. Any competent opponent immediately singles out plasma inceptors for priority termination, and if they're waddling up field (even at a M6-11" pace) they're gonna get massacred. Furthermore, you're giving up Doctrine synergy by spreading them out. Cracking T8 is hard enough as it is without diluting one of our few sources of S8 firepower.

**JNAProductions**

Galef wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Galef wrote:
Regarding the Inceptors in the unit: Does it change your opinion if there is a Jump Captain escorting 2/3 such units?

For clarity, we talking Plinceptors for killyness, or Boltceptors for mobility shenanigans? They're very divergent uses and I want to make sure I'm speaking to what you're specifically asking.
Sorry, Plasma. In addition to giving the unit Fall back & Shoot, I want the killyness. That's why I will either have them escorted by a Jump Captain until he gets to combat, or string them back to the Watch Master

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If you're using Inceptors as pseudo-FLY on your Fortis, I'd probably stick to Bolt. Don't want to fry yourself overcharging.

**Galef**

Conveniently my Inceptors are the Easy-build, so came with Bolt, albeit I've painted them as Plasma (glowing blue-green in select places and swapped out the barrel).
I might try the Bolt versions, but it's a shame they don't get the Combat Doctrine AP bonus

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**Slayer-Fan123**

Galef wrote:
Conveniently my Inceptors are the Easy-build, so came with Bolt, albeit I've painted them as Plasma (glowing blue-green in select places and swapped out the barrel).
I might try the Bolt versions, but it's a shame they don't get the Combat Doctrine AP bonus

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Whelp that's the Deathwatch for ya!

**LunarSol**

Honestly, DW balanced around needing to take pure DW to get the -1 AP would probably struggle compared to DW that can soup. Our stuff is just too expensive and CP hungry to fuel itself.

**Lemondish**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And we went over how bad Flamegressors are.

And it doesn't matter if the unit gets the aura. Regular Reivers are useless and got the aura, AND they have more means to get into range to use that and their grenade.
Nobody is clamoring towards them for a reason. It's a bad idea, period, especially with the lost extra shot.

I have never seen somebody so enamored with a single SIA bolter shot.

I'll take the utility over the single bolter shot because not a single one of my games has ever, in any edition, at any time, in any scenario, ever come down to one extra bolter shot.

But I can name two where the LD stacking and the grenade, especially for a bully unit like this, made a difference.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Lemondish wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And we went over how bad Flamegressors are.

And it doesn't matter if the unit gets the aura. Regular Reivers are useless and got the aura, AND they have more means to get into range to use that and their grenade.
Nobody is clamoring towards them for a reason. It's a bad idea, period, especially with the lost extra shot.

I have never seen somebody so enamored with a single SIA bolter shot.

I'll take the utility over the single bolter shot because not a single one of my games has ever, in any edition, at any time, in any scenario, ever come down to one extra bolter shot.

But I can name two where the LD stacking and the grenade, especially for a bully unit like this, made a difference.

Honestly you play bad opponents then. Anything regarding LD sucks this edition and frankly always has. OR would you argue Fear had uses in last edition hahahaha

**grouchoben**

Aggressors will be everywhere soon. Shutting down their overwatch, in some scenarios, is worth a lot more than a point. I see the case for a single Reiver, even if I'll rarely use one. Honestly, combat squadding is of limited interest to me, as I like to run pure DW, and that means double battalions, and that means 6 troop slots to fill, and that means why would I comba squad?

I think the classic 3 bike/2 VV and fire-team split is the only one I use...

**Sterling191**

grouchoben wrote:
Honestly, combat squadding is of limited interest to me, as I like to run pure DW, and that means double battalions, and that means 6 troop slots to fill, and that means why would I comba squad?

I think the classic 3 bike/2 VV and fire-team split is the only one I use...

Agreed. Combat squadding is generally not something I would recommend for Fortis teams as you really dont gain much, but if you're gonna do it, it's a means to put another tool in the kit that you couldnt bring in a normal 5 or 6 man team without giving up significant capacity.

**Maximumbob**

My personal sweet-spot in a kill team is 5 ABR intercessors, 2 Aggressors, and an inceptor. Sargent with a PF.

15 SIA shots at 24", 12+2D6 aggressors (X2 stationary), 6 S5 AP-1. Fall back and shoot, move, advance and shoot with no penalty. Coupled with 12 PF attacks in melee.

Struggling to find a better balance for my playstyle.