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I want to try out a list with 2x Repulsor Executioner with a Watch Master with Tome relic as support and 2x Aggressor/Autobolter mixed KillTeams squads.
Has anyone got experience with something similiar?
I tried one squad of mixed Agg/Autobolters and it was amazing...the sheer amount of fire power they have plus the bulkyness is great
I just picked up my second executioner in a used buy this last weekend. I am looking forward to trying a similar strategy.
I have absolutely fallen in love with primaris kill teams. Auto bolters and aggressors,MSU stalker with one aggressor, rapid fire with plasma support. All of them are fun as heck. Auto bolters in particular have been excellent vessels for SIA.
I am very happy veterans vs primaris is a real choice now. I love both.
I think you (or battlescribe?) got the points cost of Hector Rex wrong - according to CA 2019 he's 100 points excluding wargear, so you have to add his Storm Shield (Arias comes for free..), which brings him up to 110 total. In general, while his storm shield and denying are absolutely great, Coteaz might be a better buy...
The 40K community site has a new preview up for Deathwatch. There is virtually nothing new there, BUT that's only new to Deathwatch. They are getting Combat Doctrines, Space Marine Litanies, and a lot of the generic Space Marine Strategems that make them so decent. Intercessor Sgt's get more weapon options including Thunder Hammers etc. Just Combat Doctrines on their own seems to be a huge deal, since they can stack with special ammo.
Just saw the news as well, came to see if there was any discussion yet.
Sad that we won't get to be included in PA but at least we get something.
Interested to see if there will be any point adjustments as the auto bolt rifle is dirt cheap and with the stratagem would make it a really strong choice. Also getting a +1 to hit Litany is going to a great buff.
bmsattler wrote: The 40K community site has a new preview up for Deathwatch. There is virtually nothing new there, BUT that's only new to Deathwatch. They are getting Combat Doctrines, Space Marine Litanies, and a lot of the generic Space Marine Strategems that make them so decent. Intercessor Sgt's get more weapon options including Thunder Hammers etc. Just Combat Doctrines on their own seems to be a huge deal, since they can stack with special ammo.
The AP cap on kraken and vengeance effectively makes them not stack. That leaves hellfire with a solid buff... At the cost of making ammo choice completely irrelevant.
So much potential design space and they do this half assed hack job of a release...
bmsattler wrote: The 40K community site has a new preview up for Deathwatch. There is virtually nothing new there, BUT that's only new to Deathwatch. They are getting Combat Doctrines, Space Marine Litanies, and a lot of the generic Space Marine Strategems that make them so decent. Intercessor Sgt's get more weapon options including Thunder Hammers etc. Just Combat Doctrines on their own seems to be a huge deal, since they can stack with special ammo.
Doctrines, as currently worded, cannot stack with SIA (there is an explicit prohibition on combining its AP with other sources). Neither does Bolter Discipline.
Given that they're previewed un-fixed stratagems copied from the pre-nerf Marine codex, my confidence is zero that those two fundamental showstoppers will be fixed, let alone that anything resembling a functional competitive PA-grade army will be possible. Simply put folks, barring an absolute miracle of rules-writing hiding in the page and a half they didnt preview, Deathwatch are unambiguously fethed. Again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/11 02:01:51
I would be deeply disappointed with that preview if I played deathwatch. No new content/rules at all? Talk about a letdown.
As a quins player, I'm afraid that means quins will be getting close to nothing too (though they can't give us absolutely nothing new like you're getting because there's nobody to C&P rules from).
As usual the fear of us being Marines +1 will result in us being Marines -1.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Alright, it's a complete gak show and no mistake. What makes it a bit worse is the way the article is written - long on rhetoric and adjectives, with actual misleading claims as to what the update is doing for the army. But let's focus on what it does do for DW.
- I think, if they weren't already a very strong choice, assault bolters are now a top pick. A squad of ten using boltfire, plus to wound and tactical doctrine can drop damage on hard-to-hit units such as alaitoc flyers and reflexed harly bikes... Stacking strat buffs on an autohitting high-shots unit could be clutch, and boltstorm - a strat that hasn't really caught on - may find a home when stacked with DW's hellfire and +wound style of play.
- (However this is indicative of the problem that DW will now face: new strats will be adding to the strain of generating enough cp to actually be able to function in the way the army obviously intends to.)
- Stalker squads remain the best synergisers with hellfire and T1 will shred opposing marines like nobody's business. A squad of 10 using hellfire & target sighted can now one-bang characters with ease, if you have the 3 cp to burn.
- The limited relevance of doctrines due to hard caps on SIA rend means we're still probably the best soup marines. I know it's not exaclty a plus, but it will be a factor in list design no doubt. Using guard to unlock the holy triple-battalion alongside some sorely needed dedicated AT, for example, will be very tempting.
- Catechism of Fire will allows us, unless specifically otherwise mentioned, to stack to +2 to wound on any single unit in our army, which is REALLY big, and probably the most powerful new aspect of the army. Seeing as we're an army that lives or dies by the buff, I think Master of Sanctity on a jumpchap will become absolutely autoinclude for us, for that crucial +2 to wound.
- Big guns will allow a single Corvus not to be a pile of gak, at the cost of 1cp a turn. It's not ideal but it makes them a little more viable.
- Our Aggressors were already some of the best in the game, as they could DS (not flank) on t2 and pop +1 to wound, but now they can add rend and push up to +2. I think everyone will be looking at at least one max squad of them. With 2cp, a watch master and chaplain can buff them up to doing 14.8 damage to a 4++ knight in shooting, or wiping a 10-man squad of intercessors: that's serious firepower. They were also missing transhuman, well no more: now they can tank as well as dps.
- Duty Eternal will see some play as we're one of the only chapters that kind of has to use dreads due to our lack of dedicated AT. DS SCA Levs will get a slight buff I guess, if that's your jam.
- I can't see much for vets really. Transhuman is big but in a vet army it can only buff one team: if you drop it on one your positioning is going to have to be great to stop your opponent switching fire to the next non-buffed killteam instead. Will be clutch in turn 3+ though.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/11 12:19:06
bmsattler wrote: The 40K community site has a new preview up for Deathwatch. There is virtually nothing new there, BUT that's only new to Deathwatch. They are getting Combat Doctrines, Space Marine Litanies, and a lot of the generic Space Marine Strategems that make them so decent. Intercessor Sgt's get more weapon options including Thunder Hammers etc. Just Combat Doctrines on their own seems to be a huge deal, since they can stack with special ammo.
Doctrines, as currently worded, cannot stack with SIA (there is an explicit prohibition on combining its AP with other sources). Neither does Bolter Discipline.
Given that they're previewed un-fixed stratagems copied from the pre-nerf Marine codex, my confidence is zero that those two fundamental showstoppers will be fixed, let alone that anything resembling a functional competitive PA-grade army will be possible. Simply put folks, barring an absolute miracle of rules-writing hiding in the page and a half they didnt preview, Deathwatch are unambiguously fethed. Again.
Oh yes, poor DW. Some factions dont even have similar rules like doctrines or bolter disciplines to begin with. SIA is free for DW, 0 pts. With hellfire rounds a five model DW veteran unit can wound ANY non vehicle, non titanic unit on 2+, regardless of toughness, for 70 pts. That x2.5times better than any other non DWSM infantry unit with boltguns would do against T5, wounding on 5s.
grouchoben wrote: - Catechism of Fire will allows us, unless specifically otherwise mentioned, to stack to +2 to wound on any single unit in our army, which is REALLY big, and probably the most powerful new aspect of the army. Seeing as we're an army that lives or dies by the buff, I think Master of Sanctity on a jumpchap will become absolutely autoinclude for us, for that crucial +2 to wound.
- Our Aggressors were already some of the best in the game, as they could DS (not flank) on t2 and pop +1 to wound, but now they can add rend and push up to +2. I think everyone will be looking at at least one max squad of them. With 2cp, a watch master and chaplain can buff them up to doing 14.8 damage to a 4++ knight in shooting, or wiping a 10-man squad of intercessors: that's serious firepower. They were also missing transhuman, well no more: now they can tank as well as dps.
Some very good points, and an enjoyable analysis!
I'm not certain that Deathwatch get access to the Master of Sanctity options, though you could argue that many of them come from Codex-compliant marines.
Also, the Chaplain's +1 to wound litany has to be applied at the beginning of a battle round to a unit that's on the board with the Chaplain. So it will be useful for Deathwatch, but not for units that are deep-striking. However, the +2 to charge Canticle of Hate makes charges much more reliable from Deepstrike. You just have to pre-deploy the Chaplain to support the squads coming in, or use the Beacon Angelis to zip him into position. Throwing in a Thunder hammer or two could go a long way toward adding some anti-tank power to the veteran squads.
Veteran squads have been one of the better ways to threaten Riptides. Hellfire rounds and a Watch Master can put an average of 30 wounds on a Riptide, which then had to decide whether to transfer those to Drones or tank with the 2+ save. Tanking on the save puts 5 wounds on average, so three squads will either pick up the Riptide or put some wounds on it and strip most of the Drones out of a Tau army. Adding -1 AP to Hellfire doubles the wounds you'll leave on a Riptide. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding SIA not stacking with Doctrines, I believe this is just the Kraken and Vengeance rounds?
Doctrines also means that Deathwatch can soup easier with other Marines.
Do Deathwatch count as Ordo Xenos units for Inquisitor purposes?
Edit: It would seem they do not. Boo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/11 12:46:41
souping with another marine army seems a no-brainer, if that other force doesn't really rely on it's super doctrine. You'll get access to cheap battalion scouts for screening, Eliminators, TF cannons etc. That's probably the biggest win from the addition of doctrines.
BrianDavion wrote: the real sad thing is this means DW won't likely get access to the Phobos troops :(
That is the saddest part. Plus, since there’s only 14 new stratagems in the write up, is extremely unlikely they’ll get any new ones beyond the standard SM suite that all updated chapters get.
That said, Doctrines are amazing, and updating Mission Tactics to apply to all units will be a nice boon to DW vehicles. I do hope they thought to update the wording of the Combat Doctrines ability to actually stack with special issue ammunition.
That said, Doctrines are amazing, and updating Mission Tactics to apply to all units will be a nice boon to DW vehicles. I do hope they thought to update the wording of the Combat Doctrines ability to actually stack with special issue ammunition.
All of this is exceedingly unlikely to happen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/12 12:50:55
That said, Doctrines are amazing, and updating Mission Tactics to apply to all units will be a nice boon to DW vehicles. I do hope they thought to update the wording of the Combat Doctrines ability to actually stack with special issue ammunition.
All of this is exceedingly unlikely to happen.
Yeah someone here doesn't understand how likely it is GW won't even do the bare minimum.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
That said, Doctrines are amazing, and updating Mission Tactics to apply to all units will be a nice boon to DW vehicles. I do hope they thought to update the wording of the Combat Doctrines ability to actually stack with special issue ammunition.
All of this is exceedingly unlikely to happen.
All of the updates have reworded chapter tactics to apply to everything, so I’d be surprised if mission tactics isn’t as well. But yeah, I’d be surprised if they thought to make combat doctrines explicitly stack with special ammo.
The DW Chapter Trait is so far behind the power curve now that even if it was extended to vehicles it would rank down there joint-last with Salamanders.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It really is hellfire rounds and stormshield vets as the only two things really holding the faction together now. I get the feeling that just spamming vet squads, watch masters and chaplains is the only viable strategy left now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/12 19:17:17
All of the updates have reworded chapter tactics to apply to everything, so I’d be surprised if mission tactics isn’t as well. But yeah, I’d be surprised if they thought to make combat doctrines explicitly stack with special ammo.
You're putting a lot of stock in being treated like a Codex Marine when GW has been perfectly clear that Deathwatch wont get any kind of comparable attention.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: The DW Chapter Trait is so far behind the power curve now that even if it was extended to vehicles it would rank down there joint-last with Salamanders.
Indeed. The fact that our CT can be replaced by a 60 point model and be more efficacious is just icing on the gak sandwich.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/12 19:20:01
So the rules are out. The only thing we get are basic doctrines (that attempt to stack with SIA, we'll see how the minutiae works out) and a handful of copy paste strats.
Bolter discipline is still fethed. Watch Master is now officially the worst Chapter Master in the Astartes. The Corvus is staying on your shelf for another edition.
Admech & Deathwatch
he' s 100 points
2500 Emperor's Children 
