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Unless I mssed something we can't do Bolter Shield Terms.

 Eldarain wrote:
Unless I mssed something we can't do Bolter Shield Terms.

Deathwatch cannot. Its either Hammer and Shield, or CML + hammer and shield.

Wolf guard we aint.

Sorry my mistake maybe more bikers than terminators in that case for T5

 Leth wrote:
Sorry my mistake maybe more bikers than terminators in that case for T5

Only the Sergeant in a DW bike squad can take a shield. Bikes in Vet squads have zero access to them, or to special weapons. They can only choose melee weapons.

Our wargear selection is surprisingly limited.

 Leth wrote:
Sorry I didn’t spell out everything, the lack of invul saves makes me less likely to trust intercessors with babysitting objectives. Durability will be king when it comes to scoring points. An invul save provides a guarantee than your opponent can’t overcome, It introduces uncertainty into their battle plans beyond just overwhelming firepower.

Since Primaris have 2 Wounds, would't Fortis Kill Teams with some Blade Guard mixed in be more durable than normal Vets?

Pyrosphere wrote:

Since Primaris have 2 Wounds, would't Fortis Kill Teams with some Blade Guard mixed in be more durable than normal Vets?

I have zero confidence that Fortis teams will get Blade Guard. Not until a new Codex.

At best we'll get access to the unit to run as a standalone.

Pyrosphere wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Sorry I didn’t spell out everything, the lack of invul saves makes me less likely to trust intercessors with babysitting objectives. Durability will be king when it comes to scoring points. An invul save provides a guarantee than your opponent can’t overcome, It introduces uncertainty into their battle plans beyond just overwhelming firepower.

Since Primaris have 2 Wounds, would't Fortis Kill Teams with some Blade Guard mixed in be more durable than normal Vets?

If they get blade guard sure? But if you think that armies won’t be loading up on D2 weapons then I got a house in a flood plain to sell you. Even then, Bladeguard don’t have shooting weapons that I can tell and so I am curious what they offer for their 2 wounds over terminators.

How did the Blackstar turn out? It finally gets the Machine Spirit it always needed. Just a question of how expensive it got. That and Dreadnought pricing probably has a lot to do with how well we transition, at least until we can start adding super meltas the the Fortis teams.

 LunarSol wrote:
How did the Blackstar turn out? It finally gets the Machine Spirit it always needed. Just a question of how expensive it got. That and Dreadnought pricing probably has a lot to do with how well we transition, at least until we can start adding super meltas the the Fortis teams.

It went down a smidge depending on the loadout. If my napkin math is accurate its 200 points tricked out.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
How did the Blackstar turn out? It finally gets the Machine Spirit it always needed. Just a question of how expensive it got. That and Dreadnought pricing probably has a lot to do with how well we transition, at least until we can start adding super meltas the the Fortis teams.

It went down a smidge depending on the loadout. If my napkin math is accurate its 200 points tricked out.

At 195 for its cheapest loadout currently, that's a pretty decent cost reduction. Hopefully it'll actually see play now.

Just being able to have out kill teams on the table turn 1 will be huge for winning missions, corvus and drop pods will be clutch if we got for high damage kill teams without the durability.

 Leth wrote:
Just being able to have out kill teams on the table turn 1 will be huge for winning missions, corvus and drop pods will be clutch if we got for high damage kill teams without the durability.

Im not sold on this. The amount of points it would require to get saturation on objectives with pods and/or planes is high enough that you're losing a sizeable chunk of our already precious bodies to hold said objectives. It also effectively requires first turn for the pods.

if 63 points gets you even 5 VP then it has more than paid for itself.

Objective claiming on turn 1 is crucial. I don’t think people have really internalized how much top of the turn scoring matters for the game going forward

 Leth wrote:
if 63 points gets you even 5 VP then it has more than paid for itself.

Objective claiming on turn 1 is crucial. I don’t think people have really internalized how much top of the turn scoring matters for the game going forward

63 points plus the 240 (or more) for the Vet squad inside. And if you dont think armies out there can mulch through ten T4 3+/3++ 1W bodies in a single turn, you're fooling yourself.

Against an unprepared opponent, you may get it. Against a player who has a functional understanding of screening and board coverage, you're never going to get it if you dont get first turn.

If they can burn through a 10 man vet squad and a drop pod while nothing else in the game matters! You are correct.

If the rest of my army has an impact on the game? You are incorrect.

Not sure where you desire to explicitly say I am wrong comes from when I am just throwing idea out there on instinct but it is pretty obnoxious.

 Leth wrote:
If they can burn through a 10 man vet squad and a drop pod while nothing else in the game matters! You are correct.

If the rest of my army has an impact on the game? You are incorrect.

If you're making a play for objectives, and get yourself shot off those objectives, then your play failed. Kill points barely matter in 9th. Objective scoring does. If you're not scoring primaries, all the secondaries in the world wont save you.

 Leth wrote:

Not sure where you desire to explicitly say I am wrong comes from when I am just throwing idea out there on instinct but it is pretty obnoxious.

Then maybe dont suggest allocating 15% of your army to a one-off strategy that will only achieve results against an unprepared player in very narrow circumstances?

The window of viability for this army at present is exceedingly narrow. The expectation of being able to just "throw out ideas" and have them all magically work, is not helping.

Don't worry, Leth. Many others see the value in throwing out fun, new ideas. Not everyone is a grognard tryhard.

 Leth wrote:

Pyrosphere wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Sorry I didn’t spell out everything, the lack of invul saves makes me less likely to trust intercessors with babysitting objectives. Durability will be king when it comes to scoring points. An invul save provides a guarantee than your opponent can’t overcome, It introduces uncertainty into their battle plans beyond just overwhelming firepower.

Since Primaris have 2 Wounds, would't Fortis Kill Teams with some Blade Guard mixed in be more durable than normal Vets?

If they get blade guard sure? But if you think that armies won’t be loading up on D2 weapons then I got a house in a flood plain to sell you. Even then, Bladeguard don’t have shooting weapons that I can tell and so I am curious what they offer for their 2 wounds over terminators.

GW already confirmed that DW will get access to the new units (no mention of Vangurads Marines). So I strongly suspect that these will be mixed in to either Fortis Kill Teams or maybe some new type of Kill Team. Maybe by armor class? At least for Vangurads if they finally arrive in the DW.

I wager we don't ever get Vanguards since they're the Scout replacement in the model line.

I wager we'll get the new stuff as killteam options. The big question is whether we'll be able to mix assault Intercessors the base 5 or whether they'll be the start of a new killteam type.

 LunarSol wrote:
I wager we don't ever get Vanguards since they're the Scout replacement in the model line.

I wager we'll get the new stuff as killteam options. The big question is whether we'll be able to mix assault Intercessors the base 5 or whether they'll be the start of a new killteam type.

The obvious solution to the Assault Intercessor conundrum is to treat it as a wargear option for the basic Fortis datasheet ("May replace its Bolt Rifle with Heavy Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword"). That said, I dont expect we'll see integration into squads until a new codex. At best they're just going to say "you can replace <CHAPTER> with DEATHWATCH, have fun!" and call it a day.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I wager we don't ever get Vanguards since they're the Scout replacement in the model line.

I wager we'll get the new stuff as killteam options. The big question is whether we'll be able to mix assault Intercessors the base 5 or whether they'll be the start of a new killteam type.

The obvious solution to the Assault Intercessor conundrum is to treat it as a wargear option for the basic Fortis datasheet ("May replace its Bolt Rifle with Heavy Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword"). That said, I dont expect we'll see integration into squads until a new codex. At best they're just going to say "you can replace <CHAPTER> with DEATHWATCH, have fun!" and call it a day.

I agree with both thoughts there.

So on non infantry models; what are our options looking like in 9th? The Blackstart looks... well, I have one and might as well test it. Dreadnoughts I assume will be our primary vehicle choice simply because its the only one that benefits from any of our abilities. Any word on dreadnought choices? I'm doing a bit of math now, but I suspect the Contemptor still beats out the Redemptor.

Mortis dreads are auto-takes. Ven-dreads are likewise going to continue to be solid. Redemptors do surprisingly well since they're hybrid units, but I havent looked too deeply at their updated cost so they might be priced out.

Razorbacks are the right combination of cost for efficacy, and as a mobile charging screen (that can shoot into the things they tag!) I suspect will get some play. Bonus points if they deliver special weapon toting Vets (which is one of the few configurations that didnt go up horrifically in points).

Remember that we still have old doctrines (for the moment), so we can keep the AP2 Assault Cannons (and other Heavy weapons) blazing away past turn 1.

Thinking about it again, different types of Kill Teams don't make any sense fluffwise... Kill Teams are suited for the mission, so there should be no additional categorization to the existing one (Old Marines or Primaris).

All eyes on "should" - it's still GW

It looks like a Redemptor is going to cost you about the same as a quad-las Mortis Contemptor. Their points changed about the same amount, though the Redemptor went up a little more (but is also a little happier to be in melee I suppose).

The Leviathan saw a pretty hefty jump in price. Probably not worth it compared to the Contemptor anymore for most marines, but its still a pretty awesome target for our buffs.

I can’t decide if the vehicle shooting changes make hybrid dreds enough of an appeal to take them, especially combined with the change to mission scoring.

Leviathan is all shooting all the way though. It having the double heavy flamers will finally pay off a little bit.

Big news, as far as I'm concerned, is that the Xiphon looks to have taken a haircut down to 220pts.

I ran one to good effect in 8e quite a lot, and I've recently bought a second. I rate them for DW quite high and I see them having a role in our lists in the future at that price, coming in under a 10-man vet squad.

As to the solid backhanded nerf that vets got; it's brutal. A jump from 18 to 24pts for ss/sb is NOT in line with other increases, it is in fact a 33% increase. There may still be some good use to be had a single squad or so, but really I think the pivot to primaris is very real now. Plasceptors got a huge haircut too; I may get three more. Between eradicators, plasceptors and xiphons I feel I can cover my AT very well now.

The Xiphon is a nice catch. I considered them for 8th a few times, but could never make the points line up.

Something else to consider is that Cyclone Missile Launchers went down to 25. Now I dont think it's a good choice for Terminators, but for Mortis Dreadnought platforms its just cheap enough to consider as an all-rounder supplement to non quad-las configurations.

Thinking about it more, I sadly feel like vets are 100% dead at these points costs. I could stomach them at 2-3 points cheaper. But not at 20 for the cheapest I would run them. Honestly not even worth it to unlock OS bikes and terminators. 50 points more for 5 less wounds doesn’t math out. It takes your opponent making a huge mistake in target priority at that point to balance the numbers out.

Especially with the new Indomitus units, vets have no place where they excel for the points cost. Primaris are just too cheap(I expected them to have to pay for their weapons on top of the base cost). Still think leviathan is gonna be god mode, especially with all the primaris we are going to see going forward.

 grouchoben wrote:
Big news, as far as I'm concerned, is that the Xiphon looks to have taken a haircut down to 220pts.

I ran one to good effect in 8e quite a lot, and I've recently bought a second. I rate them for DW quite high and I see them having a role in our lists in the future at that price, coming in under a 10-man vet squad.

As to the solid backhanded nerf that vets got; it's brutal. A jump from 18 to 24pts for ss/sb is NOT in line with other increases, it is in fact a 33% increase. There may still be some good use to be had a single squad or so, but really I think the pivot to primaris is very real now. Plasceptors got a huge haircut too; I may get three more. Between eradicators, plasceptors and xiphons I feel I can cover my AT very well now.

The Xiphon seems to do Anti-Tank better, but the Blackstar isn't a completely ridiculous option anymore either.

 LunarSol wrote:

The Xiphon seems to do Anti-Tank better, but the Blackstar isn't a completely ridiculous option anymore either.

Unfortunately with the Vet situation (which is the key role of the Blackstar) I just dont see the changes being enough.