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The Corvus has worse weapons imo, but has 2 more wounds and can hover. But yeah, Xiphon is a superb AT and character killer, and its +1 to hit vs fly keyword is solid.

 grouchoben wrote:
The Corvus has worse weapons imo, but has 2 more wounds and can hover. But yeah, Xiphon is a superb AT and character killer, and its +1 to hit vs fly keyword is solid.

Definitely worse weapons in an AT role, but its a decent chunk cheaper as well and can reroll 1's against ground targets or... I totally forget what the Halo Launcher does now.... checked the FAQ and lets just ignore that...

In any case, I think if you want quad las, the Contemptor Mortis with a Cyclone is still probably the better pick over either.

 LunarSol wrote:

In any case, I think if you want quad las, the Contemptor Mortis with a Cyclone is still probably the better pick over either.

At 220 points the mobility of the Xiphon makes a very strong case. Planes are death to unscreened characters, and the changes to Look Out Sir mean that just being near a pod of friends isnt a guarantee of protection. I think there may be roles for both to play.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

In any case, I think if you want quad las, the Contemptor Mortis with a Cyclone is still probably the better pick over either.

At 220 points the mobility of the Xiphon makes a very strong case. Planes are death to unscreened characters, and the changes to Look Out Sir mean that just being near a pod of friends isnt a guarantee of protection. I think there may be roles for both to play.

Definitely possible. The point cost on the Xiphon is very significant and the Blackstar got a ton of sorely needed buffs. Whether it makes either truly competitive isn't something we'll know... probably ever really, but neither feels like a complete waste anymore.

Holy crap they actually gave us Lieutenants.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/WwmEkmb1MyUp2pPp.pdf

Further evidence of the great combined Astartes book rumor?

 Eldarain wrote:
Further evidence of the great combined Astartes book rumor?

Hopefully.

The biggest issue is that they didn't give them the SIA ability.

Isn't a problem for Eradicators, and a minor inconvenience for Blade Guard and Assault Intercessors, but Outriders would have loved it.

 Eldarain wrote:
Further evidence of the great combined Astartes book rumor?

I wouldnt go that far. It's just the laziest possible implementation of GW keeping their promise to give access to the Indomitus units.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Further evidence of the great combined Astartes book rumor?

I wouldnt go that far. It's just the laziest possible implementation of GW keeping their promise to give access to the Indomitus units.

You're probably right. Just odd as they've only given us the Executioner since the original release and even some of the initial options weren't available.

I know predicting GW's actions is like reading tea leaves but an across the board inclusion is not how they've treated us.

Lemondish wrote:

Isn't a problem for Eradicators, and a minor inconvenience for Blade Guard and Assault Intercessors, but Outriders would have loved it.

Full agreement. Outriders, despite being pricey, are shaping up to be an excellent unit for Deathwatch even outside Fortis squads. Twin Bolt Rifle SIA plus doctrines is a terrifying concept.

Sterling191 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Isn't a problem for Eradicators, and a minor inconvenience for Blade Guard and Assault Intercessors, but Outriders would have loved it.

Full agreement. Outriders, despite being pricey, are shaping up to be an excellent unit for Deathwatch even outside Fortis squads. Twin Bolt Rifle SIA plus doctrines is a terrifying concept.

Absolutely, just...not yet.

I do think having an Ancient is a new and cute thing.

 Eldarain wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Further evidence of the great combined Astartes book rumor?

I wouldnt go that far. It's just the laziest possible implementation of GW keeping their promise to give access to the Indomitus units.

You're probably right. Just odd as they've only given us the Executioner since the original release and even some of the initial options weren't available.

I know predicting GW's actions is like reading tea leaves but an across the board inclusion is not how they've treated us.

Welp. Looks like we're supplement marines now folks.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Further evidence of the great combined Astartes book rumor?

I wouldnt go that far. It's just the laziest possible implementation of GW keeping their promise to give access to the Indomitus units.

You're probably right. Just odd as they've only given us the Executioner since the original release and even some of the initial options weren't available.

I know predicting GW's actions is like reading tea leaves but an across the board inclusion is not how they've treated us.

Welp. Looks like we're supplement marines now folks.

Just as every other marine chapter Except Grey Knights...

It's great news, on balance. We'll have access to more units and will have more competitive rules.

 grouchoben wrote:
It's great news, on balance. We'll have access to more units and will have more competitive rules.

Indeed. As long as we keep the Kill Teams and SIA, this is a categorically good thing in my book. Just having access to the core Marine relics, WLTs and some specific units is fundamentally game changing for the brothers on the Long Watch.

Plus, it may or may not mean we can do successor Watch Companies, which is crazy fun from my perspective.

 Eldarain wrote:
Further evidence of the great combined Astartes book rumor?

Looks like you were right on the money here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
It's great news, on balance. We'll have access to more units and will have more competitive rules.

Indeed. As long as we keep the Kill Teams and SIA, this is a categorically good thing in my book. Just having access to the core Marine relics, WLTs and some specific units is fundamentally game changing for the brothers on the Long Watch.

Plus, it may or may not mean we can do successor Watch Companies, which is crazy fun from my perspective.

There's also the possibility that they continue to limit what the supplements can bring from the codex, but we shall see...

In any case, the reported new chapter tactics are... interesting.

Unsurprisingly they fixed out doctrines and Duty Eternal, as well as solidly codifying just how poorly doctrines interact with SIA as written.

Meh, we spent 8 in this weird limbo of neglect. Sometimes that neglect was to our benefit, but mostly to our detriment. Expect things standardized going forward and hopefully it means we'll have less time rotting on the vine, even if we're never the ripest of the bunch.

Am I crazy or are our Intercessors the same cost as everybody else’s, but have SIA?

Rivener wrote:
Am I crazy or are our Intercessors the same cost as everybody else’s, but have SIA?

The SIA tax has been gone for some time.

SIA is essentially our chapter tactic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

What's the big hit?

Stormshields are 4pts
Stormbolters are 3
Basic veterans are 17

Whereas an ABR Intercessor is now 20

Oh and all kill teams lost fallback and shoot.

Edit: misread on my part, looks like they only tweaked the beginning of Vanguard/Inceptor strike not the whole ability.

I was just looking at this again. Did they actually remove the fall back and shoot from Vanguard Vets but forget to do so from Inceptors? The Vet errata says to delete the second sentence, which isn't part of the Intercessor change.

 LunarSol wrote:
SIA is essentially our chapter tactic.

SIA is not the Deathwatch CT. It's a datasheet ability that only specific units get access to. Mission Tactics is the CT.

 LunarSol wrote:

I was just looking at this again. Did they actually remove the fall back and shoot from Vanguard Vets but forget to do so from Inceptors? The Vet errata says to delete the second sentence, which isn't part of the Intercessor change.

Using the previous errata versions of the Inceptor/Vanguard ability, this edit means that Fallback and Shoot still exists. What was deleted was the way that the pseudo-fly functioned in the charge phase, which was mooted by changes to Fly and Charge in the 9th core rules. It's however super convoluted and confusing due to the different wording that ability has had over 8th and needs to be clarified because if one looks at previous versions it can be read to delete Fallback and Shoot.

I'd assume the new errata changes the text in the book and not of a previous errata that we can't reference anymore. Hard to say given the discrepancy between the Intercessors and Vets though.

 LunarSol wrote:
I'd assume the new errata changes the text in the book and not of a previous errata that we can't reference anymore. Hard to say given the discrepancy between the Intercessors and Vets though.

You would be incorrect in that assumption. GW have done both. It requires additional clarity that I dont expect to get until the new Codex.

Fair enough. Good thing I'm likely locked down until then either way. :(

So what kind of loadout are we looking to post changes for the kill teams? I'm kinda thinking one Stalker boat and a bunch of Auto Bolt units. Mildly curious if the Aggressor ends up being a liability with the 6th man penalties.

 LunarSol wrote:
So what kind of loadout are we looking to post changes for the kill teams? I'm kinda thinking one Stalker boat and a bunch of Auto Bolt units. Mildly curious if the Aggressor ends up being a liability with the 6th man penalties.

If you're really worried about blast, run an 8 man Intercessor plus 2 Aggressor combo and combat squad down to 5. Might even be worth doing if we get Phobos troops to be more economical on slots (those 6 in a battalion are gonna go fast with MSU Incursor/Infiltrator teams in the equation).

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
So what kind of loadout are we looking to post changes for the kill teams? I'm kinda thinking one Stalker boat and a bunch of Auto Bolt units. Mildly curious if the Aggressor ends up being a liability with the 6th man penalties.

If you're really worried about blast, run an 8 man Intercessor plus 2 Aggressor combo and combat squad down to 5. Might even be worth doing if we get Phobos troops to be more economical on slots (those 6 in a battalion are gonna go fast with MSU Incursor/Infiltrator teams in the equation).

Huh.... this hadn't even crossed my mind.... I have much thinking to do. Legit thanks.

Along those lines, what are the thoughts on our HQs? I assume a Master and Smash Captain? Any value in any of the Inquisitors?

Combat squadding is one of the most useful things Deathwatch can do! :p

For inquisitors, if you want to stay fluffy ordo xenos, we don't get access to the really busted maeleus stuff (Coteaz is nuts.), but both the named xenos inquistors are fine for some phychic shinnanigins.

Personally, I'm going to be taking a barebones xenos inq just to run around and go for objectives/actions. For 60 points, they have a lot of tricks up their sleeves.
Pay a CP to give them a warlord trait and relic. Take the Xenos Refund CP on 5+ to combo with Forbidden Knowledge for a better chance of getting that CP per-round back. Take the -1 to wound relic just for a bit of extra survivability.
Take the Xenos psypower to give your inq old character targeting and scramble around capping objectives without bodyguards.
Conversely, use the inqusitor to try for physic secondaries, or other secondaries with actions (teleport becons).
You could even pay a cp to infiltrate them up the board into a hideyhole if you wanted to be extra sneaky.
If you're playing a psychic heavy army, pay an extra CP to get another deny the witch with Alpha Psyker. If you're worried about overwatch (matchup with tau?) pick Terrify as the extra flex power.

For 60pts, the little suckers can bring a lot to the table!

Malleus Inquisitor with Alpha Psyker is rocking a cast 2, deny 3, know 3 statline. I'm highly considering that for a possible Psychic secondary option on a dirt cheap chassis.

As to HQs, Watch Master is always a given, but if/when we get Phobos Watch Captains, the Vanguard WLTs are verrrrrrrry interesting.

Want a Damage 5 character sniper? It can do it.

Want to pull redeploy shenanigans with our new infiltrating lads? It can do it.

Want a front line vector for a turn 1 beacon bomb? It can do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

Huh.... this hadn't even crossed my mind.... I have much thinking to do. Legit thanks.

As stated, combat squadding with mixed squads is an absurd tactical tool that Deathwatch are uniquely suited to use. I did it all the time in 8th, and see no reason to stop for 9th.