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 Galef wrote:

All I'm saying is that 2W vets become the defacto all-rounder and push Primaris teams into very niche roles. Roles that Vets can still compete in with the right loadout.

Hard disagree. The T5 Intergressor hammer still represents a horrific all-round threat with buckets of anti-troop dice, punches for days, surprising mobility with penalty-free advancing and a solidly chunky defensive statline (especially with Transhuman on the table). Other common configurations still have parts to play (again, Stalker teams for cost efficient mobile backfield holding and character hunting, split Intercessor/Hellblaster teams popping out of Impulsors for a turn 1 hose down and the list goes on).

Veterans can do things that Fortis teams cant, and Fortis teams can do things Veterans cant. That's a good thing. Especially in an objective focused edition where being able to engage across the entire table is mandatory for success.

Well if we're looking at 2w vets and 3w termies, that pushes me right back to vet squads I have to say, with stalker primaris holding the backfield. +1w changes the math considerably.

 grouchoben wrote:
Well if we're looking at 2w vets and 3w termies, that pushes me right back to vet squads I have to say, with stalker primaris holding the backfield. +1w changes the math considerably.

New reboxed Datasheet reveals today are looking favorable for 2W Vets across the board. I'm getting a strange feeling about my Deathwatch: hope.

That cant be good.

Why not? We're marines now. Probably not the best marines, but still along for the ride.

 LunarSol wrote:
Why not? We're marines now. Probably not the best marines, but still along for the ride.

Because GW has a shining history of categorically excluding Deathwatch from rules updates for no conceivable reason. Im hopeful, but until we have the update that actually gives us things, Im not taking anything for granted.

The theorycraft is a fun diversion though, no question.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Why not? We're marines now. Probably not the best marines, but still along for the ride.

Because GW has a shining history of categorically excluding Deathwatch from rules updates for no conceivable reason. Im hopeful, but until we have the update that actually gives us things, Im not taking anything for granted.

The theorycraft is a fun diversion though, no question.

Well, 2W marines confirmed:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

We've been excluded because the business of how they update rules excluded us. Pulling us into the Codex means we no longer require a separate release to receive updates. Probably get Black Templar level of negligence still, but we'll at least get neglected in a timely manner.

Never mind was beaten to the punch there with the link

 LunarSol wrote:

Well, 2W marines confirmed:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/08/13/new-boxes-new-rules-new-codexes/

Im expecting a 20 point base cost (the usual tac plus two). Which is pricey, but workable given what the increased durability does for Vets.

 LunarSol wrote:

We've been excluded because the business of how they update rules excluded us.

This is categorically false. GW have had multiple explicit opportunities in major non-codex updates to give Deathwatch abilities and units (just as they did for every other non-Codex Marine army). They deliberately chose not to.

It has nothing to do with Codex tempo.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

We've been excluded because the business of how they update rules excluded us.

This is categorically false. They have had multiple explicit opportunities in major non-codex updates to give Deathwatch abilities and units (just as they did for every other non-Codex Marine army). They deliberately chose not to.

It has nothing to do with Codex tempo.

That's largely because of how SIA has been implemented as a datasheet element. I suspect it will need to be implemented differently as a Codex Supplement, but we could also just find ourselves getting a bunch of Indomitus style additions that carry the same weapons without SIA. Hard to say.

 LunarSol wrote:


That's largely because of how SIA has been implemented as a datasheet element. I suspect it will need to be implemented differently as a Codex Supplement, but we could also just find ourselves getting a bunch of Indomitus style additions that carry the same weapons without SIA. Hard to say.

Datasheets without SIA are how all of the Primaris have been added (excepting Intercessors and Reivers). It's how I expect we'll get most additions until the new Codex.

In any event, I dont want to get ranty again and derail things when we've finally got some good news. Let's get down to brass tacks...

With a similar points increase relative to Tactical Marines, Veterans are (likely) going to be clocking in at 27 points for the SB/SS loadout. I dont know what the increase on Terminators is going to be, but I expect it'll be at minimum a similar 3ppm, but likely more in the 5ppm range. That puts the latter at a 35-ish cost for a basic power weapon plus SB configuration, and a whopping 60-ish if one opts for a CML.

With the additional wound though...I think that's on the higher end of reasonable. Especially the barebones version. I can see pure terminator drops being a thing again too, especially with the option of pairing +1 to hit and +1 to wound via strat.

Additionally, with the melee weapon changes (D4 Thunder hammers. Oof) I think Black Shields are finally back on the menu. A 5-man team with both the Sarge and Blackshield toting Combi-weapons and power weapons and 3x SB/SS helpers is 150-ish points depending on how one kits them out. Popping out of transports to get into people's faces with some now pretty quality melee attacks to go with their hail of still high quality fire is tasty, and plays into the 9th paradigm of board control that we desperately need to keep in mind to stay in games. Honorable mention to standalone VenVet units. Even with a similar points uptick to baseline Vets they're clocking in at 15 points more than Assault Intercessors with innate deep strike, wacky good mobility and the capacity to take a few relatively inexpensive melee weapons for some horrific blending. I probably wouldnt put shields on them as it would spike their cost considerably, but if one is contemplating a pseudo Sanguinary guard type unit as a hammer, I can see it being worthwhile.

Bikes...are in a weird spot. They're already 15% more expensive than their Marine counterparts for no discernable reason. If they get another points increase, I dont know that theyre going to be worthwhile since it'll put them in the Terminator cost range, and that to really get mileage out of them given how much more durable common targets are becoming I'd want to put melee weapons on them. I do still love the 3x Bike, 2x VanVet combat squad for 9th with ObSec. It's an amazing disruptor unit that can cause significant mayhem on the table for what it costs. Definitely an item to ponder there.

In terms of heavy weapons, I do think the CML is a legitimate, albeit pricey, option. Finally getting the 2d6 Frag shots is immensely helpful, and they're cheaper than individual missiles but also on a MUCH more durable platform. Im fiddling with some combat squadding options to update my backfield Stalker Boltgun configurations from 8th, but nothing's really clicked yet. The Infernus on paper is a big winner with the 12" flamer change and going to D2 (although we dont know how many HB shots it'll keep). I dont know if they're worth the 20 points though. That's one I expect to try out and see how they do. I'm still not sold on Frag cannons, but that's largely an artifact of my disliking their short range, and their paper thin delivery platform from 8th. I want to get some on the table to give them a fair shake though.

For the special weapons, Combi-Plas at 10 points is probably still the gold standard and doubly so now that it's officially going to unmodified 1s to explode. However, with the adjustments to Flamer and Melta statlines, plus their cost changes, I think both of those give some interesting options. Especially if we're expecting a lot of W3 models, having a d6+2 guaranteed kill if we get the wound through...is intriguing.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:


That's largely because of how SIA has been implemented as a datasheet element. I suspect it will need to be implemented differently as a Codex Supplement, but we could also just find ourselves getting a bunch of Indomitus style additions that carry the same weapons without SIA. Hard to say.

Datasheets without SIA are how all of the Primaris have been added (excepting Intercessors and Reivers). It's how I expect we'll get most additions until the new Codex.

In any event, I dont want to get ranty again and derail things when we've finally got some good news. Let's get down to brass tacks...

It's really only Aggressors and Inceptors that clearly intentionally do not have SIA. You're forgetting a bunch of easy to overlook but still technically unique datasheets like Chaplains, Captains, Librarians and Apothacaries. Humorously, even the Hellblasters have it to make sure they have SIA on their pistols. It's really the bolt pistols that make SIA as a datasheet element really clunky as an extension of the SM Codex.

Great analysis though. Points are going to be pretty key, but I'm definitely excited to see what options become available for killteams moving forward.

New Hellblaster sheet has appeared, and it's gonna be a doozy for Fortis teams.

Heavy goes to flat damage 2 non-overcharged.

RF is unchanged.

Assault goes to 3 shots.

Bonus points if you're playing Crusade, where Hellblasters are the exact same cost as Intercessors in that squad.

I was just looking at my Hellblasters and hoping they'd make these exact changes.
I'm really torn now between assault plas in aggressor/ABR teams, or heavy plas hiding in stalker teams.

At 3 shots apeice, the assault plas is really solid, but has a real good chance of burning itself out without rerolls, and I like to run my assault teams pretty independantly (hard for a non-jump captain to keepup)
Heavy plas has the nice 2 damage marine killer without overheating, and I assume it will go to damage 3 when overcharged which would make it a much needed anti-tank option.

 McGibs wrote:
I was just looking at my Hellblasters and hoping they'd make these exact changes.
I'm really torn now between assault plas in aggressor/ABR teams, or heavy plas hiding in stalker teams.

I think the heavy change is enough to finally make me reconfigure my stalker teams. Up until now Id been running a pair of 6-mans (5 SBRs + Aggressor), but with the flat damage upgrade it's absolutely time for a combat squadded set of 3x SBRs, 1x Heavy Blaster, 1x Aggressor. Yes, it's losing two flat 2D SIA shots, but the capacity to lob a 3D armor busting (or Gravis busting) shot downrange for a net decrease on points is not to be taken lightly. Plus the capacity to avoid Blast entirely, and only take up a single precious Troop FO slot.

It'll depend a lot on the cost of things, but very exciting.

With 2 wound vets costing as much as primaris (which I expect) there is no way stormbolters are 4 points and auto bolt rifles are 0. They are comparable weapons on comparable platforms.

I sincerely hope GW doesn't screw this up...

bort123 wrote:
With 2 wound vets costing as much as primaris (which I expect) there is no way stormbolters are 4 points and auto bolt rifles are 0. They are comparable weapons on comparable platforms.

I sincerely hope GW doesn't screw this up...

Preface disclaimer: I think SBs at 3 are overcosted for 1w Vets for sure.

The thing one has to keep in mind is that part of what the SB cost for Deathwatch Veterans includes is being able to take a second piece of wargear. If Storm Bolters dropped to zero points, not only would you be doubling the firepower of every unit for free, you would be getting a cost discount on another piece of gear that you're already taking on the Vet. Lets look at a basic unit of SBs and Chainswords versus ABR Intercessors. Not only would the Vets have better shooting (yes, the extra shot within 15" more than balances out the longer range firepower differential), they'd have even more higher quality melee attacks (21 S4 Ap-1 D1 vs 16 S4 AP0 D1) for the same cost as the Primaris squad.

Both units need to be viable in the context of the other, but also in the context of other wargear options for each unit. ~27ppm (estimated cost of NuVets) SB/SS Vets are pricey. I get that pain. But TBH, for what they can do its not an unreasonable price point.

Alright, some legitimate good news again: Codex (supplement) Deathwatch by the end of 2020. We still dont have any hard details as to how it will interact with the prime Marine Codex (IE: we dont know which units are specifically excluded from the DW OoB), but its looking to allow for most of the existing range to take up the Long Watch.

Just a couple of quick scribbles about units i'm eyeing up for my lads (in no particular order)...

First up, Attack Bikes. I've written before about my ambivalence on DW bikers, but Attack Bikes are legitimate contenders. Rocking in at (currently) 55 points for two armor busting shots and a twin boltgun (which most folks overlook in my experience, but is devastating once SIA gets added to the equation), a MM Attack Bike is a perfect blend of killy, mobile and resilient. Yes it's likely going to see a points increase with the wound update, but at the 60 that I'm banking on its till on par with a CML terminator, but with 5(!) wounds on a T5 M14 platform that also doesnt care about moving and shooting with the heavy weapon. Two bike squads hit my personal headmath niche of versatile, but expendable, and barring any major curveballs I fully expect to add probably four to my collection.

Second up, Impulsors. These floating jeeps have the capacity to fundamentally shake up how we play. Single turn delivery for buckets of SIA and/or Plasma, exceptionally robust objective holding, and mobility for daaaaaaaays. I genuinely think we've only scratched the surface of what they can do given the inherent flexibility of combat squadded non-Gravis lads in mixed squads. And holy hell if they drop the Primaris only restriction...

Thirdly, Phobos armor in general. Yes, you've all heard me rant about this in the past, but forward deploying Incursors (especially now that they've got somewhat scarier combat weapons), area denying Infiltrators, Character BLAMing Eliminators, and Phobos officers provide additional flexibility. Im holding out hope for a mixed Phobos Kill Team, but even if that doesnt happen we're poised to get a ton of new tactical tools at our disposal. Its about damn time the Commando Marines join the Marines Commando.

Finally (mostly just so this post isnt fifteen pages long), the humble Ancient. This one is a bit of a stretch, but given that we got the Bladeguard Ancient out of Indomitus, I dont think an unreasonable stretch. One of the major weaknesses of a Deathwatch army, especially one that's thematic and leans into the infantry heavy nature of the fluff, is fragile models being removed. Now while the wound upgrade will help, having the capacity to go full Khan and stab at Hell's Heart as each Veteran goes down should not be underestimated in my opinion. Park one of these lads between two big ten man Kill Teams and they suddenly become even scarier. They also serve as another vector to get a buffing WLT in (especially so if we get the prime Codex WLTs in addition to the DW ones), which provides another potential force multiplier. The latter bit IMO is more valuable in the context of limited Captain slots with the new restrictions we'll face with the 9th codex.

All told, im again feeling somewhat optimistic, but am reserving judgement until we know more. What do y'all think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaaaand of course as soon as I post this they make the storm shield change an across the board blanket alteration.

That's gonna need some serious thinking.

I’m interested in using vets with infernus heavy bolters. The heavy Bolter is now d2 and the heavy flamer is now 12”. Great for deepstrike or drop pod vets. I might take them over frag cannons. Great vs heavy infantry and hordes alike. Put the in terrain with a few storm shields and ignore most small arms fire .

Sterling191 wrote:

Aaaaand of course as soon as I post this they make the storm shield change an across the board blanket alteration.

That's gonna need some serious thinking.

That was pretty much a given. I'd also wager they're going to remove the Storm Shield (Character) cost and give that to the Relic Shield instead.

 LunarSol wrote:

That was pretty much a given. I'd also wager they're going to remove the Storm Shield (Character) cost and give that to the Relic Shield instead.

Oh it was very likely, im just nothing if not an idiotic dreamer who holds out hope on certain things until I get the bad news to my face.

I do think overall Vets are a winner on this front as going to 2W and a 2+/4++ profile means that we're faaaaaaar more durable against the kinds of things that murderized vet teams in 8th. The drawback is that we're not as frustratingly hard to shift against high AP and high damage as we were. There's ways to mitigate that of course (access to some of the prime codex rules is going to be key for that for things like FNPs and strat support), but we'll have to see.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
I’m interested in using vets with infernus heavy bolters. The heavy Bolter is now d2 and the heavy flamer is now 12”. Great for deepstrike or drop pod vets. I might take them over frag cannons. Great vs heavy infantry and hordes alike. Put the in terrain with a few storm shields and ignore most small arms fire .

I'm...honestly not sold on the IHB. They're just too expensive at 20 points. Two IHB vets is roughly the cost of three SB/SS vets, which do a far better job of horde blending, and only a slightly worse job of heavy infantry hunting (though with more T5 targets hitting the table I think even that is debatable IMO). Especially if you need to be on the bounce with a unit, that (effective) BS 4+ with the heavy bolter part hurts.

The stormshield nerf is awful news for vets, and just for a moment I thought they might sneak ahead again as our best troop choice. 4++ is not a patch on 3++.

 grouchoben wrote:
The stormshield nerf is awful news for vets, and just for a moment I thought they might sneak ahead again as our best troop choice. 4++ is not a patch on 3++.

Obviously a lot depends on points, but it also gives them +1 to their armor save. So they tank small arms on a 2+, and hard stuff at a 4++. Worth including a few as pure damage sponges? Replace terminators? (Although I suspect they will still be more efficient 2+ wounds)

I thought the IHB was 14 pts? With rerolls I wouldn’t worry about the -1 to hit. Also it’s nice to have the ability to use the mortal wound strat.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
I thought the IHB was 14 pts? With rerolls I wouldn’t worry about the -1 to hit. Also it’s nice to have the ability to use the mortal wound strat.

Its 20 points thanks to CA2019

So then battlescribe is wrong.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
So then battlescribe is wrong.

Battlescribe is wrong all the time. It's a decent tool, but isnt infallible. Especially for less commonly played armies.

 grouchoben wrote:
The stormshield nerf is awful news for vets, and just for a moment I thought they might sneak ahead again as our best troop choice. 4++ is not a patch on 3++.

Remember, 3++ is being replaced with 4++, +1 to regular armour saves and +1W.

Doing some rough stats on tanking wounding hits from variable AP and D1/D2/D D3 weapons, the new profile is better/not worse at not loosing a model when any of the following is true:
vs D1 attacks, new profile wins regardless of cover or AP
vs D2 attacks, if no cover new profile is better or same up to AP1, in cover better or same up to AP2
vs D D3 attacks, if no cover new profile is better or same up to AP3, in cover better or same up to AP4 (i.e. always better or same as before)

You are also half as vulnerable to mortal wounds.

It's going to come down to what's in the new codex/points changes as usual - as things stand vets have a "better" profile than not-gravis primaris given the free chainsword or paid for invul save.

**couple of edits because apparently copying maths from excel is hard

Another net positive for us (though it remains to be seen just how net):

Our entire army is generally Core units. Staying absurdly reliable with reroll support when other armies are losing that reliability on an as yet undefined amount of their units gives us yet another niche to roll into.

I currently have a conversion project in mind for a space marine chapter, and I'm looking for a 'home' for them (a parent chapter for me to be the successor of basically). Unfortunately (As always) there's trade offs for each chapter I like, so I'm wondering just how much of a loss it would be to do a space marine soup using Deathwatch?

Likely to be Deathwatch for the troops, with a spearhead of salamanders.

Obviously things are likely to change in the next couple months, but thought I'd start some rough thinking about it now

Always liked the idea behind deathwatch,